Quoted from razorsedge:

C'mon everyone, we all know how capitalism works, don't we? ... ever increasing profit margins and ever increasing cut corners and exclusions all while the price rises. Nothing unexpected, they don't make 'em like they used to. Real quality wood, and taking the time and care required for superior quality product have gone to the wayside, so that things can continue on the essential growth curve! . Capitalism is just the best isn't it!
I made the choice never to buy another new in box stern after the horrendous dimpling that happened to my n.i.b. ACDC Prem VE. It warranted a replacement Decent playfield in my opinion, but I was brushed of by the stern dealer along with the likes of the man Steve himself who claimed it was "normal". Besides if the playfield was replaced it would just be the same s#it quality p/f to replace it. I sold the POS, I would get another as I think it's a great game, but I will buy an original run that has a playfield made with more care and decent hard wood. Also bonus get a propper backbox latch, backbox, and real lockdown reciever. Stern especially have taken Cheap and Nasty to the Next level from all that I've seen. They out do everyone else for cheap, by leagues. What operator is going to be keen to buy a new JP2 that does not eat the ball? . It's the main attraction and what everyone expects from JP... may as well keep the old one or buy a Premium... or was that the plan... less pro's?
Venting sequence complete!

Quoted from Brk_oth:

They don't use multiple suppliers for playfields - all Stern playfields made in the one place.

Quoted from razorsedge:

Pmsl! Really??
"Lookout the commies are comming!" hardest I've laughed all week, thanks!
Well yeah! QC costs money! . Pretty much just looks like a more profits and greed/money issue. Nothing can grow forever - Newsflash.
Bigger they get the harder the fall, only takes time.
Pinball doesn't benefit from companies making cheaper and nastier pinball machines, and for ever more money/profit.
Capitalism is just the next dirty C word that's all, didn't you get the memo?
It's all good, globalisation will surely save us, and pinball! Lol
Stern LE are a AU$10k game Max! ... simple ... the rest is just Extra profit than previously (perpetual growth elephant).

Quoted from PinballTilt:

JJP will make sure any replacement playfields moving forward don't have this soft clear issue. I don't speak for the company and have no inside information, but there is no way they'd send out playfields with issues under this program. Those that already bought and were refunded, those might have this issue still

Quoted from Darscot:

There are plenty of people that are and you only need one buyer. These are the very latest released pins, even in a couple years you are going to have a line up of buyers. If I'm the only guy in the line not trying to get $1000 off because it needs a swap, lucky me and lucky seller. I think people underestimate how many people in pinball spend as much time working on them as playing them.
P.S. Whats a swap going to take 20-30 hours, shit I put more than that into a video game and at the end I just feel like a slob that just spend 30 hours sitting on my ass. I would much rather work on a pin and have a dime piece at the end.

Quoted from Vyzer2:

Car companies can absorb hundreds of millions in losses....and they have. Pinball companies can not absorb a half a million to a million and continue to be viable.

Quoted from Richthofen:

I thought Stern ordered cabinets and playfield a from Churchill, same place CGC did?
http://www.pinballnews.com/learn/churchill/index.html

Quoted from Durzel:

27 plays! That is just ridiculous.
At a bare minimum people who are buying these pins and then trying to sell them on are going to be asked questions about the pooling etc. If they have pooling and it hasn’t yet developed into chipping or lifting of the artwork then that’s basically asking prospective buyers to shoulder the burden of having to deal with Stern if/when it develops into that, assuming they’ll even deal with it for second hand pins etc.
Those people are buying a pin which is basically instantly devalued from having the pooling there.
I honestly don’t get why people are disregarding this as soon as a new theme is announced. All that achieves is to undermine the efforts of those with this problem who are trying to get it resolved. What lesson is there for Stern if they can just disregard existing owners and sell a new theme to other ones, or - worse - existing owners with the problem are too sucked up in the hype NOT to throw more money at them.
My Stern Tron LE has zero pooling, chipping or lifting. Spending the right amount of money on the playfield wood, artwork and clearing is not beyond the wit of man, they were already doing it years ago. I guess now, like the more conspicuous BOM cost cutting that saw drop targets removed and plastic ramps instead of wireforms, money spent on this stuff got shaved as well.

Quoted from Chambahz:

Well, if they said it's not widespread, they're not indicating it didn't happen. And again, given the number of pins that were produced, and given we don't know how many have experienced chipping (I'm going to assume that Stern isnt concerned about pooling since it 's only cosmetic), it could absolutely be considered to be "not widespread".
So no, "cover-up" is equally ridiculous and accusatory.
With respect to another posters comments, assuming that all of the pooling will lead to chipping in a few years and demanding playfields be replaced is also absolutely insane. What company is going to spend money, replacing things that aren't broken.
Pinside is nuts. It COULD be the most positive place to discuss pinball, where distributors like Stern COULD ask us for opinions and feedback.
Instead, (and I'm going to quote a friend here) it's a dumpster fire that Stern understandably wants no part of.
From my point of view, you can't accuse them of lying, using words like "cover up" and also expect them to spend thousands of dollars on issues that haven't proven to be a problem yet (pooling), and also criticize them for not announcing every issue they encounter.
Their choice to deal with defects on a case by case basis is the only thing that seems to make sense around here.
You are welcome to be critical of the way they operate, and refuse to spend your hard earned cash on anything they produce.
I on the other hand, am looking forward to picking up a Jurassic Park Premium as soon as possible.
I am currently "out of F(*&s to give" as they say. If you want to hate on Stern, have fun with your Wonkas.
I'm out.

Quoted from NeilMcRae:

Do you think Stern don't know that we are concerned or pissed off? I think they do. Otherwise turning around a new play field design for JP in a matter of weeks wouldn't have happened.
It would be a shame to turn a session into a moan and vent session rather than a positive session that helps all pinheads in the medium term.

Quoted from yancy:

AKA suicide in the manufacturing business

Quoted from Chambahz:

Thank you for clearly demonstrating your level of knowledge when it comes to pinball manufacturing.
(Your pinball company just went bankrupt FYI)
-your Pal, “Gary”

Quoted from Chambahz:

He accused me of it earlier so I’m just having fun with it.
Thinking more about your view point, I’ll say this:
You have an unrealistic level of expectation from Stern.
They have clearly stated that playfields are not under warranty.
You insist on a perfect playfield.
Neither of you is “wrong” but you have not agreed on this matter.
You appear to feel that Stern is obligated/indebted to provide perfect playfields and that anything less than 100% should be replaced at their expense. Remember that this is Stern pinball we’re talking about. It’s not Sony, Apple, or Toyota.
Yes, they are the biggest pinball manufacturer, but this is an industry that most people don’t even know exists.
There are no Ferrari’s in the parking lot.
Given this inability to agree on a perfect playfield, it’s really best for you to avoid buying new in box, and instead to wait and buy a second hand game that you can inspect, ensuring it’s to your satisfaction.
There’s nothing wrong with that, and it’s not meant to belittle or insult you so I hope you can appreciate the observation.
Quite frankly, it shouldn’t matter one bit to me. But I get annoyed when some people (not saying you), can’t understand that Stern is already offering more than they have committed to, and then try to call them out for lying, sweeping things under the rug, etc etc. They may not be operating to your level of expectation, but that doesn’t mean that they’re deceitful or doing anything wrong.

Quoted from porkcarrot:

Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't follow it that closely, but have they had any issues that affect actually playing the game that they haven't immediate remedied? I get that we all want the machines to be and stay really nice, but ultimately it is still a game made to play. And from what I have seen all these games are still playable. I'm not defending the play field chipping at all, but I will point out that there are games that are 40+ years old with play fields worn to the wood that can still be played with no issue at all.
No one is making anyone pay 6-8K for these. Just don't buy them. If you want them to improve these issues, don't give them any money until they do. I'm disappointed too, I have been selling machines to put that money toward a new JP2. Now I'm not going to do that unless they announce some significant improvement and that sucks. I'm really unhappy about it. But it is still a toy that I'm not going to buy, it isn't that big of a deal really. And to say that they must fix what is ultimately a cosmetic issue for every machine they produced seems excessive to me. Again, just don't buy it.

Quoted from Chambahz:

Try to keep up, Utah.
There’s this thing, called “the environment”. And as of late, companies are no longer allowed to use super harsh chemicals because it’s bad for this “environment”. So things have changed.

Here is the thing: just because YOU deem it to be reasonable to expect something, doesn’t mean that the manufacturers are in agreement. In this case, they aren’t. See the warranty if you want evidence.
Your expectations of what constitutes acceptable for a new product from a pinball manufacturer is pretty unrealistic in today’s world.
I LOVE the fact that this has come down to some Pinsiders stating that they demand play field perfection. It makes the discussion so much easier to comprehend. One expectation is not equal to what’s being offered. In this case, the manufacturer has put their commitment in writing. Yours is known only to you and may be subject to change at anytime without notice.

Quoted from Chambahz:

Hey, you started with the name calling. Don’t be shocked that I’m now giving back!
With respect to the current state of pinball, I have no idea what CGC uses. You’d have to ask them.
Fingers crossed. So far, JP LE playfields and the most recent Pro models appear to have no issues.
Here’s hoping it was just a bump that was hit, converting to a new process and all this is behind us.

Quoted from Chambahz:

What I’ve said all along is that it’s on the buyer to understand the terms of agreement before buying a game.
If Stern was playing by their own rules, they’d tell all the owners with pooling and chipping to pound sand.
(We know that would cost them customers, but that’s not the point right now)
They are working on issues “on a case by case basis” apparently. I hope that means that EVERYONE (pooling or chipping) gets a new play field -but if Stern determines that pooling doesn’t affect gameplay, and if they believe that it won’t always lead to chipping, it’s their right to refuse returns. As a buyer, you should know that before putting your money down.
I’m not telling anyone that they should like this state that we’re in. I’m just pointing out the other side to this.
When Stern has so carefully pointed out that playfields are not all covered by warranty and you get one that’s minorly imperfect, and you start screaming bloody murder... it’s a little naive.
It Would be great to better understand what Stern will and won’t replace before buying.
Maybe that’s something that could be asked at Expo, or the next show.

Quoted from pindude80:

I would say GTG's production definitely falls in that production time of when we are seeing problems. The upside is you are looking for used and won't have to play Stern NIB Roulette. My advice would be to ask the seller to send you a bunch of pictures of the posts, look at them closely, if everything looks good, make the trip, pull the glass, inspect the posts in person and if it looks good take home a GTG but I sure as hell would not being buy new if it were me.

Quoted from pinballaddicted:

Exactly this.

Quoted from Vinnie:

Yes Stern sent me a non-populated playfield due to chipping and pooling/blistering. I just received it today. I was told 4-8 weeks but it arrived in less than two. The whole process took about two months from the time I reported it to my distributor until I received the replacement. My machine was less that 3 weeks old when it chipped so that may have been one of the determining factors. I sent a lot of pictures clearly showing the issues. Stern handles these issues on a case by case basis so it takes a while before they make a determination(took a month for my case). Good luck I hope they take care of you.[quoted image]

Quoted from Who-Dey:

Anything less than a new populated playfield in your case is totally unacceptable. If your distro cant get that for you i would email and call stern and keep raising hell. Your distributor doesnt sound like much of a fightet, i would dump his or her ass also.

Quoted from Durzel:

You need only see the hype about q potential Stranger Things pin coming to see why they persist with this business strategy. If all these complaints don’t actually translate to lost sales they have no incentive to change course.
I sincerely hope that people put their money where their mouth is and restrain themselves whenever these new pins are announced. It’s the only thing that stands to change their attitude, particularly as there is no real competition cranking out pins with the same frequency as them.

Quoted from MrBally:

Gary's education is in the field of Law. He knows what he has and doesn't have to do.

Quoted from DerGoetz:

JJP ordered a perfectly fine playfield from Mirco and paid Mirco in prefectly fine Euros, they are not at fault as a manufacturer for the initial issue.
They are as much victim as the rest of us.

Quoted from PinballSTAR:

I give up...
I remind you I only got involved in this because I saw Goetz post that he didn't get his playfield yet. He didn't ask me about it, nothing - I saw the post and I emailed him and Jack to get a status update. From there the lies about the populated playfield started, months after everything started with his claim. I did above and beyond - I inserted myself into the situation to try to HELP him.
To say that he is not wrong to lie here to everyone to extort the company with the deal of give me a $ 3,000 discount on the next game (where was his outrage then - he still wanted another JJP game ? ) with the promise of I'll stay quiet, I'll tell everyone I got an unpopulated playfield and I'm happy with it, etc... Its WRONG. Period. It's wrong to each and every one of you who are looking for adequate solutions. Would you be so kindly about him if you found out today that he got a $ 3,000 discount and you didn't or would you be roasting him ? Please... JJP did the right thing to rebuff him even though it would have been easier to pay him off and shut him up.
This guy is a player and I proved it - he tried playing JJP, he tried playing me, and he tried playing every single one of you ! I did what is in my control as a distributor I put the customer on the path of resolution and I checked later to see if I could do more for him on my own.
Being upset with the PF situation and how he went about it are two separate things..

Quoted from DerGoetz:

You guys are all not reading what I posted....INITIAL
There was no bad intent. How it is being handled after the fact is up to the manufacturer and distributor, and that is what is being discussed here.

Quoted from Oaken:

It’s all well and good in theory to push responsibility down the production food chain until you get to who is ultimately responsible but in my experience more often then not when you do that as a manufacturer, you put your supplier out of business.
So then you as a manufacturer are still left holding the bag and now you have no more supplier either. Which may or may not put YOU out of business. So what do you do? You turn around and squeeze your customer to just stay alive for one more day. Whether that is the end consumer or yet another manufacturer higher up the food chain than you.
No one wins in these things. Everyone is angry (justifiably so). And all it would have taken to likely prevent this shitshow in the first place was adequate QC.

Quoted from Rager170:

They say, go F yourself lol.
Just kidding

Quoted from Yesh23:

After less 90 days and 50 plays on my JP pro with a build date of Aug 22nd. I’ll reach out to Stern tomorrow but first playfield issue with them. I don’t know what to expect.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Some comments from Joe Kaminkow on recent playfield quality when asked about it on the Super Awesome Pinball show.
https://directory.libsyn.com/episode/index/id/12947717
"...the clear coat is not glass, it's paint, it's a ball, it's a piece of wood, it will roll, big deal"
"It's a pinball, they wear out, they're mechanical things"
Super Awesome Pinball Show "You haven't noticed a change from before to now in playfield quality"?
"I'm sure from batch to batch the poplar wood changes from what tree was cut down or what the amount of moisture was in the air or the amount of time the hard coat did or how somebody mixed the hard coat with not enough of something, too much of something else but you know it's a pinball machine"
"To quote Gary we are not making heart and lung machines, we are making pinball machines"
"We used to make games where the hard coat would wear out within 90 days"
"For those at home in their underwear and in their wife beaters and drinking PBR and bitch in the words of William Shatner get a life"

Quoted from romulusx:

I’ll concede the one on one meeting that’s what you do when you really want to put a boot up someone’s ass!I can hear Jack yelling how his reputation of a quality build just went out the fucking window and you knuckle heads will be replacing playfields

Quoted from romulusx:

Really going all the way back to a 2007 build.So you sold your Emerald Edition WOZ and made your money back?

Quoted from romulusx:

I guess I’ve been lucky with my Dialed In and Wonka.The DI was trouble free and the few problems with Wonka they helped me thru them.Ive always felt like Frank and Lloyd have been helpful with any issues I had

Quoted from JodyG:

Stern has been screwing my friend around for 5 months now after committing to a populated playfield. They won't even give an idea of a date for when he may get his. Current excuse is "machines we are building right now are already sold". Well, TMNT is probably going to be on the line shortly, so that will lead to more excuses. Talking to a lawyer now to go over options.

Quoted from Raegor:

only to a select few that would actually do a swap

Quoted from cpr9999:

Check your balls....for scratches...