(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

5 months ago



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#636 4 months ago
Quoted from o-din:

There will still be plenty of bad ones all boxed up and ready to go well after they do anything.
It is a known issue now, so in the near future and until it is fully resolved, anybody that complains about the game they just unboxed having this problem, gets what they deserve.

It’s a gamble in the Wild West right now. Good luck nib buyer’s...

#700 4 months ago
Quoted from Pinchild:

No sir I believe both manufacturer will take care of me as they have in the past.
I trust Stern and JJP
Both proven worth

Yep. They will take care of ya real good.

And yes, they’ve proven their worth...in spades.

#701 4 months ago

Well, I’m just gonna go to my local Distro, rip open all his boxes of nib stock, break all the glass on the pf’s, ( no time to slide em out, I’m a man on the go!), and rub my screwdriver over the cc. If the pf’s still look ok, I’ll give him a thumbs up.

I’m off boys, LET’S GO!

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#703 4 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Me thinks someone is in for a rude awakening don’t you?

Unfortunately, yes.

The Distro when I point out the pf issues to the cops he called.

#706 4 months ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

Great point. Washers have been applied.
Why did you chose the phrase "rather than halt production and fix the real problem"?
That implies that they know what the real problem is AND that halting production is one of the best ways to fix it. We don't know that either one of those things are correct.
More likely a line worker noticed a change in how the art looked after installing some posts. She pointed it out and her supervisor noted it for the plant manager to check out. Maybe they tried some different things and decided washers made things better so they went with that until someone decides differently.
Another possibility: it's not even showing up at the factory. Tech support is getting calls and photos and the washers are a first attempt. Who knows at this point?
Shutting down the plant when you don't even know what the problem is, how severe, or how widespread? You're talking about putting hundreds of people out of work temporarily. No one wants that. You'll investigate while production continues and do your best to fix any issues that come up.

I know folks in the car industry, alot of them over my 28 years. Same thing. Issue found accidentally, goes up the chain, low-hanging fruit fixes tried, then things may get serious. Issues are always found months or years later too.

One thing not done: a letter saying your car is like a snowflake.

#710 4 months ago
Quoted from ezeltmann:

Sorry Stern , this issue is widespread! On location 2 days
NOT SHOWN: Right side sling post was already chipped with art removed.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

The washers just made it wider?

10
#774 4 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Went to a barcade yesterday and here's what i saw.
JP-pooling and chipping
BK3-pooling
IMDN-pooling and a piece of clearcoat flaking off in the middle of the playfield
Deadpool- didnt look but im sure it probably had issues as well.
At my house:
Munsters-pooling
IMDN-pooling and chipping after 600 plays
For anyone who thinks this isn't a big problem, you better think again because its HUGE I guarantee it!

Wow. No doubts this is widespread now. Waaaay past just working up the chain of command. This problem is a crisis. Pf in a pinball machine IS the Alpha-Omega of it. Rest is just there to support the pf. Decals ungluing? ( Stern ST), no big deal we just reglued. Cabs separating? More serious, ( again, Stern), but imporved cab leg supports and wood glue.
Node boards? 1st gen JJP light boards? Serious scale on top tier now, but fixable, replace affected boards (hopefully at no cost to owners!).

But THIS?!? Aww c’mon. Much needed corporate rethink. NOW! I’m sure resellers taking a hit will appreciate Jack’s letter.

I’ve got money saved for my next LE. Time to put it into my cars instead. NIB is too stressful

10
#1093 4 months ago
Quoted from NPO:

Expo is going to be very interesting. Who's ready for Elvira, BTTF, GNR, TMNT, whatever other dream theme they may choose to release to help you forget about ClearGate....? You ready to TRULY say you're cutting Stern/JJP off until "this is fixed" ? We'll see.....

Already forgotten about nib for the foreseeable future. Went back to collecting B/W and pre-garbage Sterns and JJP’s. May pick up a Hobbit soon.

#1096 4 months ago
Quoted from luckymoey:

Hopefully JJP, and Stern, will come out with a more transparent, customer focused solution very soon.

After so long of diminishing QC and cheaper BOM? The dagger in the heart was stupid price increases with every release, yet we still made excuses. Damn, now I sound like a negative Nelly. I’m sorry gang.

Hopefully survival mode will kick in with them and sound judgement based on long term viability with a passion for the product will be used going forward. Competition is supposed to be good, right?

10
#1098 4 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

You're missing out on a great game over a few extremely minor issues IMO. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Quoted from zaphX:

You're missing out on a great game over a few extremely minor issues IMO. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

You may be right, but if the pf starts flaking off in chunks, too risky and price is too high. Brand new they’ve got serious issues, you really think years from now they’ll be ok?

18
#1103 4 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

I might get hit by a truck years from now. Today, I'm having a great time playing a great game!

True, but you didn’t pay 6-12 grand for the chance to run across the highway.

Seriously though, not a lot of folks here I’ve met over the years that consider Pinball more important than losing money on its expenditure. Part of the appeal over vid games is they tend to hold or increase value.

Add to that Pinball is a huge purchase for us, it needs to be perfect. Anything less than beautiful and it tarnished the entire machine in my collection.

Chrome or gold trim. Pristine boards. Flawless cabs. Most important: playfield.

10
#1105 4 months ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

Just wait for the big recession coming. 7k will be no longer expendable for most.

I’ve got a recession free job. Planned it that way.

#1132 4 months ago

You kidding? My job is pure man town.

I fix cars and trucks. Damned dirty, dangerous fun. Never outgrew my matchboxes.

#1139 4 months ago
Quoted from tpir:

I'm not freaking out. You are doing that thing you keep doing where you shift the blame from JJP/Stern to us. The point is these QC issues should not exist at all for the prices we are paying for a premium niche toy. And who knows what all we don't know about or how these tables will look in a year.
Your continued terrible logic and arguing in bad faith in these threads actually has me hoping your table is a huge piece of shit that completely falls apart. Enjoy!

You know what they say about opinions. They’re like something or other.

He must’ve really taken a piss in your Cheerios.

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#1241 4 months ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

I have something very similar on IMLE. I’m probably going to sell it to a local at a hit of 2K rather than waiting for a resolution.

Trickle down effect. Nib sales drop, secondary market follows. I’m sorry for anyone losing money on These.

#1285 4 months ago
Quoted from pinballplusMN:

Maybe time to call Neil Nicastro and get back in the pinball business.

Awww. Too soon.

#1286 4 months ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

My Super Chexx Pro gets delivered next week. I almost went with Miracle on ice.

Super Chexx are fun as fuck. Love those things!

#1290 4 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Can't play em by yourself Rick.

I can and I will! BWAAHAHA!

17
#1292 4 months ago
Quoted from GamerRick:

Jack called me tonight as well. He is sending me a new playfield for both my POTC and Wonka! They will be playfields from a new run. I’m very satisfied with a personal call and a free replacement playfield. I feel that is fair under the circumstances. Great touch to call customers personally. I’m impressed with that. We spoke for a few minutes and he was very genuine. He thanked me for my business and trust in his company as well and wanted to make sure I knew he valued me as a customer.
Is Gary Stern calling anyone?

Well, enjoy that pf swap on your brand new pin. Yikes.

#1312 4 months ago
Quoted from GamerRick:

Well I certainly agree swapping isn’t fun or cheap, but I don’t blame JJ for all of it. It was Micro that screwed up. JJ should have figured it out sooner, but they are making a big step to fix it. If they replaced every machine they would go out of business. I don’t have to swap out POTC yet. I can save it for if the playfield has to be replaced. But no matter what, I absolutely love that machine, my favorite pin ever. So I’m willing to invest some to keep it working great. I think there aren’t any great choices here, but he was serious that they won’t be using bad playfields going forward and there will be new runs without the issue. I am satisfied that they are making a serious effort. I got the clear impression he knew they needed to do something big on this to keep customers happy and coming back.

While that’s correct, I don’t blame Chevy for a truck check engine light, I blame Delco electronics for building that sensor too cheaply. But the customer blames Chevy and has to wait while we diagnose and fix the issue. Tomatoe, Tomaaatoe.

#1347 4 months ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

All the cancelled orders probably got their attention.

Can’t move forward without getting up, my Grandad always said. This got them off their seats. Let’s see what happens next.

#1484 4 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

I just received my Jurassic Park LE with the new Playfield fixes. Very happy. Think it’s goung to last forever.[quoted image]

UNTIL IT DIMPLES!!

LMAO. Funny shit man.

15
#1495 4 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Sure...your analysis is all "good", but consider this:
When CPR sells it's PF's (I've owned a few over the years), it "grades" them as Bronze/Silver/Gold (and prices them accordingly). Love this scrutiny over their manufacturing process!
When Stern get's a PF from it's supplier, many NIB defects show up fairly quickly during manufacturing. In an ideal world, Stern would stop production and send the defective PF back to the supplier. The reason they don't is time-to-market...they need to ship these games to earn revenue. So...the PF manufacturer isn't "punished" for the crappy job.
I recently built a house from a very large "production" builder that allocates ~5 months to build a pretty substantial home (which is really fast...should take 9 months IMHO). A simple example/issue is poorly installed sheet rock that isn't level. We had some fancy tile installed over the misshapen wall that was a joke. You ask yourself why a tile installer would install expensive tile over a wavy wall? (which obviously impacted the aesthetics of the tile installation). The answer is everyone is on a schedule and there aren't enough foreman to check everyone's work. Even if the foreman noticed the issue, chances are he would let it go since he/she is graded on completing the home in 5 months! (INDEPENDENT OF QUALITY). "Quality" is someone else's job Builders simply hope you don't notice the lousy work. After I purchased my home, I had 9 months of fixes (almost all can be traced back to inadequate time to do the right job). I spoke with many of the sub-contractors who were often very blunt about the pressures they are under.
Unfortunately, manufacturing in this country isn't as respected as it use to be. Sad.

Stern started using temp workers in 2007-2008 to build product on the lines. IJ and up iirc. Machines came out pretty good despite some hiccups in assembly.

Issues we are seeing now are due to newer tech ( cc and pf printing) but also from cost cutting or I should say time cutting along with cost. Examples: node boards. Cost and time cutting. Less wiring and (supposedly) improved repair time. Worked out poorly.

Cabinet retainers. Pure cost. Splitting wood. Pure cost. Worked out poorly.

Heavier dimpling quicker on pf’s. Wood not being aged correctly along with different suppliers. Worked out poorly.

Now art and pf wear nib? Seriously?

Short term viability at long term cost. I wouldn’t buy ANY nib at 1/2 cost today.

#1716 4 months ago
Quoted from WackyBrakke:

Only 500? Not sure I’d buy one at any price TBH but if I did would have to be a couple grand less at least.

Truth. Damaged pf? Hard pass unless it’s a fire sale. For $800-up and time needed to swap a pf? Thousands less.

Of course this is a hypothetical. I’m out on these no matter. Too much liability.

#1726 4 months ago
Quoted from Halfwasted:

I am in the same boat, Stern is losing customers.

Well Gary doesn’t care about the home collector. We’re just a pita. So there’s that.

Good luck selling marked up nib junk to operators. I’m sure they’ll love breaking even in 5 years with a decimated machine.

Jack is marginally better but this better get sorted out. Who’ll buy the 12.5 CE’s then? Christ on a cracker people...

#1762 4 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

They haven’t cut costs on artwork and hiring great artists in Franchi, Yeti and Freres. That speaks for itself
How about the cost of Elwin and other coders and talent hired to do animations?
The overall overhead has gone UP substantially since they moved into the new production facility. Spending more $$$, not cutting costs
If the “current quality” of JPLE and ElviraLE is as good as my Munsters then I’ll be more than happy
Bottom line, a whole lot of buyers agree with me. What conclusions can we draw from that?
And btw, I was correcting Flynn, as he loves to do to everybody else, on his statement re deductive reasoning leads to hypothesis. Not. Lol

If there’s hope with you Ice, there’s hope for us all. At least you’re still buying man!

#1766 4 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

If somebody doesn’t buy Rick then we all F ed!
Consider it taking one for the team?

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#1876 4 months ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Again, absolutely ridiculous.
A car that’s defective is massively different from a pinball machine.
(I don’t want to give it away completely, but think of what happens to the user when these two very different machines fail to operate as intended)
The other thing to consider is this: Pinsiders appear to consider pooling on par with global warming. Operators likely do not share the same concern. So Stern announcing a recall and drawing attention to something that’s perhaps not even important, is not only unnecessary, it’s throwing money down the drain. That money is recouped with higher prices.
If that’s what you want, you’re on your own.

Well you’re wrong! I drove my pinball machine right into my neighbors house. 4 people killed. Don’t drink and slap-save kids!

#1890 4 months ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

You're supposed to think whatever the other people tell you what you should think. Geez man, I mean you can't possibly think you're entitled to your own opinion!
Btw, fully agree with you.

Well I don’t agree with you. Please elaborate.

#2149 3 months ago
Quoted from seenev:

I feel like I've read you say that dozens of times in recent months. You should really just play the game or sell it. What good is it just sitting there?

Reminds him to stay the course and no more ‘oh shiny!’ moments. Eventually I’d sell it but not before my poor choice punished me for awhile.

Or he’s waiting for this QC crapfest to play out hoping things improve. Multiple titles and years later? I don’t know...

34
#2163 3 months ago

You guys REALLY need to just hold off on nib. Nothing will improve if you don’t.

10
#2332 3 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Some people like having fun? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I’m sure it’s great fun when the ball hits a post, as they do, and that post pulls up a chunk of artwork. Good times...

#2338 3 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

It is indeed great fun!

I've got a chip under a sling, hard to see, BFD

As long as you’re having fun, I guess. Can’t fault that. Aggravating that on the cusp of new tech integrated with smooth shooting designs that the basics get overlooked. This cannot be a long term problem, my concern isn’t when it will be fixed but the thousands(?) left with preemie pf’s and no resolution.

I too would like to see that law.

https://www.usa.gov/consumer-complaints Meanwhile, those months without an answer...

#2582 3 months ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

Unacceptable.

Totally acceptable after your money is taken. Fight for a decent playfield after dropping that wad? Fuque.

#2584 3 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Sterns new norm...get used to it....u roll the dice on all these new games....

I accept that. My money going to other hobbies. Good luck with today’s nib buyer’s I guess.

2 weeks later
#2760 88 days ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Buddy got a new JP...2 bad coil stops and an insert sunk in about 1/16", which effects gameplay. Hopefully Stern takes care of his PF for him.[quoted image]

QC guy at Stern is banging through the issues I see. He must’ve been busy checking the wall of microwave ovens at the time.

2 weeks later
#3022 74 days ago
Quoted from snaroff:

I'm still confused about this "charge back" solution. Did you purchase the game on Amazon? If not, you must have purchased from a distributor. If so, the distributor is the one feeling the "pain"...no?

And? Shit product is still being purchased regardless of entity bought from. Enough Distro’s take a hit it goes right to Manufacturers lap. Try ignoring the phone then when Distro’s stop buying.

#3028 74 days ago
Quoted from MK6PIN:

Thanks!!! Definitely taking this route if another NIB gets on the radar....

Consumer needs to take steps to protect themselves.

I don’t care about the risk Distro’s or manufacturers take with larger CC or PP returns. Boo-frickety-hoo. Poor sellers? Please...

Pinside is filling to the brim with horror stories of issue-apathy from pinmakers. I’m angry and disappointed in them.

Im getting an MMRRE, so confidence is high on QC. Spooky is only other I’d even consider.

1 week later
#3149 67 days ago
Quoted from Fytr:

This *has* to be a process problem. Meaning the playfield manufacturer lacks the necessary processes and manufacturing tolerances to properly apply the clear-coat products in a consistent, reproducible manner at scale.
Maybe they are switching their CC supplier or specific product over time and not adjusting their production processes to match, maybe their factory and training and insepection processes aren't up to the standards required by the modern clear-coat products, maybe they are buying clearance CC products off the back of a truck to save a few $, etc.
The point being that I don't believe for a minute that modern water-based clearcoats are inherently inferior or incapable of doing the job well, it's just they their application requires more stringent care than the products of the past.
Cases in point:
I had a 2016 NIB Met Pro where the clear started to chip away from the drain-hole in the first 50 plays. Many games produced around that time had similar brittle CC issues, shooter lanes losing large chunks of CC, etc.
I now have a Metallica Pro that was manufactured in mid-2017 that has 14k plays on it and the pf is in incredible condition for the plays. No ungraceful chipping, etc.
I also have a IMDNLE that has <300 plays on it and is losing all the paint and CC around the posts.
Basically my persception is that it's completely hit or miss with NIB games whether you will get one that will start losing CC almost immediately or will gracefully degrade over many thousands of plays (as they should). My personal experience has been you probably only have about 1/3 chance of getting a "good one" with games made in the last 4 years.
So the manufacturers need to tighten their PF manufacturing tolerances. The problem is that there is a prevelant attitude in pinball manufacturing that the "ways they've always done it" is just fine, when really, it obviously isn't.
This is clearly shown when you see those Stern factory videos where they have a guy "test spraying" a playfield with CC without so much as a mask on in what looks like the some old shed out back (no contaminant or strict moisture or temperature control), or the one with the playfield QA station where the light table used to inspect inserts isn't even plugged in, it becomes obvious that Stern lacks the processes and training to create a quality product consistently, at volume.

Well then they slow down or die. I worked in a hyper plant in the late eighties. Product output climbed every year while quality declined. After year 4 I quit and a year later folks stopped buying product from them due to horrible issues and plant was gone.

At first we thought it was moving the product to somewhere else ( we were told Mexico), but that never happened. Owner took dwindling profits and sold rights. Company was located where I worked for 75 years. Can happen anytime.

1 week later
-1
#3155 59 days ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Ask them if the Harry Potter sample playfields are a go.

True enough. Visa is looking into my Mad Max and Jaws pf issues. Proactively and whatnot.

#3157 59 days ago
Quoted from PW79:

I did
They said whatever issue I have with Harry Potter is normal, does not affect game play & Who Dey ain't get'n shit from em.

Sounds legit.

1 week later
10
#3225 48 days ago

I’m in on a CGC MM and inquiring about a R&M pin from Spooky. Stern who? Not even a consideration. They’re out of business as far as I’m concerned.

#3234 47 days ago
Quoted from newpinbin:

I don't know why they are no longer answering emails. I have even called, leaving messages with no return phone call.

Cuz they’re getting slammed with complaints. But according to them...”nothing to see here. No problems.”

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