Quoted from CrazyLevi:Deleted post

Quoted from PanzerFreak:Deleted post

Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

Only solution that works for me is a defect free machine for $8 grand.

Quoted from meSz:

Back on topic ...... I keep seeing people saying "kudos to Jack".......did I miss something here? Has Jack come out and discussed this topic yet or are people still referencing the fact that he offered new playfields for $500???

Quoted from libtech:

They should give guys the option A) replace with populated playfield for those who want a mint game B) send a spare playfield, so those who just want to sell that playfield can re-coup the loss in resale value.
Expecting guys to swap the playfield out isnt really acceptable.

Quoted from Utesichiban:

And how exactly are they going to be able to guarantee that? It sounds like both JJP and Stern both have ongoing issues with current games. Seems to me they still dont have a handle on what or why these issues continue to occur or the problem would already have been remedied.

Quoted from cpr9999:

Yup, the volume of orders slows to distributors, thus the distributors don’t order. It has gotten Sterns attention, they stopped the line to scrutinize the LEs my distributor says.

Quoted from Extraballz:

It very well is an ink adhesion and clear issue. The clear is soft and you can put a nail in it. That’s not correct for clearcoat.

Quoted from meSz:

From what I read JJP originally offered new pf for 550$ and then changed it to free pf. People that had already paid the 550$ were contacted and given refunds.

Quoted from o-din:

Can't say they weren't warned.
But hey, what do you want for $15,000 these days.

Quoted from TheLaw:

Wait for a Deeproot... Jesus.
Nothing says costumer respect and quality construction like that company that doesn't exist.

Quoted from bigd1979:

I bought a wonka le a few weeks ago with some pooling around some of the posts(no chipping) . First thing i did when i got it home and set up was take sling post off and few other post on the lower half of the playfield. I used big washers under the posts and lightly tightened them and let it sit overnight. The next day i removed them and everything was relatively flat and back in place. From what i cld tell a combination of overtighteneing along with the inward pressure of the rubbers along with sling going off which created more inward pressure caused the art work to start bunching up. I went to Lowe's and found nylon and rubber washers that i added under those areas and didn't over tighten anything . So far after hundreds of plays everything has been ok and no pooling/movement has occurred and the playfield looks great with hardly any dimples and the clear looks very nice. Eventually ill probably order the nicer lookin clear titan silicone washers but I'm happy so far with everything. [quoted image][quoted image]

Quoted from Chambahz:

How widespread is it then, Flynn? What percentage of owners have reported issues to Stern? 1%? 5%? More?

Quoted from Chambahz:

Follow the post. The context was that Stern had said it’s not a widespread issue and Flynn states it is.

Quoted from PtownPin:

Whats great is there are people like yourself that will continue to buy these games (in most cases without even playing the game), and then dump them after 6 months so people like myself can pick them up at a discount....buy away !

Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

I'm not going to get mad until my distributor gets back to me and says "Stern said to go pound sand". For now, I'm giving them time to figure out what went wrong and the best way to fix the issue. I honestly wouldn't want a new play field until they have resolved the issue anyway.
This is something that I'm not expecting to be resolved overnight. If I don't hear anything from my distributor in 30 days or so, I'll shoot them an email. For now, I'm going to play the hell out of my BM66 Catwoman with missing chunks out of the play field.

Quoted from Rum-Z:

Yeah, it's not gonna do jack sh*t. There's air pockets under the art in each one of those "pools", so they're really blisters. Eventually one, more, or all, are going to fracture and the art will pop off along with the clear and then you'll see the wood. That's what happened on my Luci VE, along with everyone else who has wood showing around a post. Are you supposed to drizzle that clear in the chip to seal it down??? I'm curious about what whoever gave you that clear, be it Stern or your distributor, intend for you to do with it?
I locked down the rest of my worst chipped blister with water thin Super Glue, then proceeded to touch up the missing art with acrylic paint, THEN I put clear over the touch-up and polished it. That was a real hoot to do on a 1 year old game, seeing that I have 19 Williams/Bally machines ranging from 22 to 27 years old, and all the art around every single post is fine on those, but hey.. I guess this is progress.

Quoted from hawkmoon77:

I posted this in the JPLE thread, but wanted to let people here know as well that two senior people reached out to me regarding the PF issues I had and they are sending my distributor a new populated PF to swap. Based on the communications I've had with them, I have no doubt that this is an important issue for them to get right. I appreciate everyone's advice here. It helped tremendously.

Quoted from Beaverz:

A toddler can swap a new playfield if you can get them to pay attention. It's simply unscrewing and screwing in parts. On a new game the GI isn't stapled to the playfield, parts are not being rebuild or repaired. it's tedious but easy. To say it's beyond any normal person is silly. Sure lots of people are too lazy to do it, but it takes exactly zero special talent to swap a modern playfield.

Quoted from Beaverz:

It's physically simple

Quoted from Wickerman2:

For JJP, Jack practically screamed do not remove posts with this issue happening...for what it’s worth

Quoted from jawjaw:

Seriously? One cosmetic flaw and you expect Stern to replace the entire game even if months old or thousands of plays, eating shipping both ways? Stern would then be stuck with a used game they cannot sell and out many thousands of dollars. That seems a bit extreme to me. I'm not sure what Stern should do with all this but I know what we all can do - not buy nib games until 100% confident that we will be satisfied with what we are buying.

Quoted from newpinbin:

These distributors are make over well $1500 on every game sold.

Quoted from Who-Dey:

He's just trying to take care of himself and get some kind of monetary resolution to his defective purchase. If JACK would have did the right thing and gave him a populated playfield it would have never gotten to the point that Goetz would have had to do that in the first place. Am i right?

Quoted from Who-Dey:

Joe is the one that made it go nuclear not me and i hate to tell you this but you have already been screwed by JJP because Jack has already made it clear that he is not giving customers populated playfields.

Quoted from PtownPin:

Have you heard anything from JJP?

Quoted from Manic:

Ha. So essentially in this case the dist and JJP have you in an NDA situation.

Quoted from Manic:

I didn't assume anything. I stated they put you in an NDA type situation so you won't talk about it. I never said there were any legalities involved.
They're not counting on you being "nice"... they are counting on your hope that your silence will get you a favorable outcome.
I just found it amusing that when a customer suggests the same kind of thing there is outrage.
.

Quoted from Rager170:

All something id be billing Mirco for. But then again, they wouldnt have had that issue if the QC'd it correctly from the start...
In reality, they are still building these machines, so to send a populated playfield, get the return and then use those parts.. Not sure how much costs would be involved besides the labor side.

Quoted from Rager170:

Completely normal..

Quoted from romulusx:

According to Pinside Mirco doesn’t make Stern playfields.And yes a phone call and righteous ass chewing can change bad manufacturing real quick.My uncle Charlie was VP of a finishing company I worked for as a young man.I watched him make calls to vendors and the problems were resolved when new material arrived

Quoted from bigd1979:

So far there have been no complaints with the ce, le and se that were made after sept-oct. I'd say they got it under control but of course there cld be a outlier like with any handmade product. But if I was a buyer I'd be pretty confident in purchasing a jjp pin made after sept-oct manufacturing date.

Quoted from JodyG:

Playfield protectors just don't work for me. They play different, take the ball noise away, and get dirty too fast.

Quoted from JY64:

It will be interesting to see if JJP has a price jump with there next game

Quoted from NeilMcRae:

who are these customers and people ?

Quoted from fooflighter:

I raised that guardrail on day one with a fiber washer I knew that would be an issue just looking at it

Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

Stopped me.
I was full in on a GNR LE - but now I'm just going to wait it out or buy a used game I can inspect
Already have games I love, so I don't feel I am missing out

Quoted from zaphX:

And yet you still hang out here to tell us about it every 10 minutes.

Quoted from pinballaddicted:

Out of interest how many new games have you bought over the last few years that have had playfield issues?

Quoted from pinballaddicted:

Vote with your wallet! What were your issues and did you follow through with the Distro or manufacturer?

Quoted from zaphX:

I'll think of you every time I unbox one, which will be today![quoted image]

Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

I haven't been able to find one locally. I've been looking, but they don't seem to come up for sale much.

Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

I'm actually waiting to hear back from the IFPA as to the Stern rewards pricing. I might be able to save myself enough that it is worth the risk. I'm not sure how much you get off.
You definitely make a valid point though.

Quoted from pinballaddicted:

Get a good distro and you will be fine.

Quoted from pinballaddicted:

You bought a JJP NIB and got a spare playfield because of some pooling and chipping. What NIB Stern did you buy with the same issue that was not resolved by your distro?

Quoted from pinballaddicted:

A good distro will look after you and put in you warranty claim and get it sorted. If it is genuine a good distro will do their best to get you a resolution We have been buying NIB for years and had our issues resolved.
You are entitled to your opinion and you are also entitled to vote with your wallet. Buying clean used games is still supporting the companies that make them. If you really want to make a difference you need to stop playing and buying the games completely.

Quoted from Yelobird:

Confusing. The distributor Works for the OEM. Instead of letting them do what they Earned your business to do you would prefer to go on a personal crusade to hate all pinball sales? Seems odd to me. When I have issues with my car I don't feel sorry bringing my issues to the dealer?? Good luck with your mission whatever that is....

Quoted from Guidotorpedo:

Here are pics of the playfield, and the play count. Judge for yourself.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Quoted from Colehvac1:

I will check it out,
As for a replacement playfield, a populated playfield is the only option, im not doing all that work for free after i spend 9650.00 on a game, i feel thats ridiculous. I do in home and shop repairs as a pro, I've swapped many playfields and i have also done many restorations, i get paid real money for my skill set I'm not giving that service for free.

Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

100% Disagree
With no ability to do a PF swap myself, a replacement PF sold with a machine that has a defective PF is of Zero value to me.
I would rather pay more for a machine without the defects then be handed another PF

Quoted from Doctor6:

So great news update: Stern is replacing my playfield with a new unpopulated one. I consider myself fortunate as I'll take a playfield over none at all. Yeah, populated is nice, but I can do it myself with a little work. Plus, they're sending me a shaker for it for the hassle. So I'm thrilled.

Quoted from Max_Badazz:

I have to ship my playfield back first. They are sending a box shortly

Quoted from Haymaker:

I agree, take what you can get. If the choice is between nothing, or an unpopulated playfield then its a no brainer and I'm gonna be happy about it.

Quoted from Haymaker:

Well lemme know if you want to sell that worthless game to me at a fair price lol. That PF doesn't add a lot of value, because the work involved to get it into the game, but it does add something. Your game would be worth far more if you did the work, so obviously having the playfield does something.

Quoted from smalltownguy2:

My price for my SE is $7000.00

Quoted from Yelobird:

Or consider selling at 6600 without playfield and 7 with and sell the playfield solo.

Quoted from Yelobird:

I was simply offering a suggestion to Get what you wanted by splitting the offering.

Quoted from zaphX:

You, passive aggressive? Now I've seen everything!

Quoted from Roostking:

I wouldn't buy your pin, or any pin, with an extra pf either.
In general, to accept anything less than a fully populated pf, installed by a Stern paid tech and being ok with it, is doing a disservice to your fellow pin buyers. Get off Stern JJP jock. This is NOT an acceptable solution.
Not directed at you BTW. Just nuts that people with issues think this is ok.

Quoted from Roostking:

Why? I buyer will just find a problem free example.

Quoted from Phbooms:

What Stern have you bought recently? I see you have a issue with Wonka but no Sterns? Just wondering.

Quoted from Darscot:

The whole I don't like your opinion but I have no defense so lets just go with you are not part of the group so you don't count.

Quoted from PtownPin:

Simple problem to solve....in the future buy nice HUO games u can inspect. I stopped buying NIB games a few years a go, but rolled the dice with a GNR CE, which arrived in great condition, but its always a risk.

Quoted from Darscot:

No one is saying it is a permanent thing. People are only stopping because of the quality control is shit and the solution is garbage. If everyone stopped NIB you bet your ass would sort that out real quick. Then everyone could go right back to buying.

Quoted from zaphX:

Ok, so if holding purchases to force improvements is the plan...what will it take for you and the others to decide it's ok to buy again?
Case in point, all indications are the new playfields on GNR CEs are beautiful. I haven't heard a single complaint.
And yet people still angrily beat the drum in here.

Quoted from Yelobird:

Wasn't my point. Was just saying buying HUO vs NIB isn't always a guarantee/indicator it will not have issues.

Quoted from zaphX:

That’s awesome. People act like the swap is this impossibility that only a handful of super talented people in the world can do. At the end of the day it’s screwing things into wood!
Well done. Looking forward to the final pics.

Quoted from zaphX:

If you spent as much time doing the swap as you do bitching on Pinside you'd have a perfect Wonka 10 times over.

Quoted from zaphX:

Lol, no. I don't have a dog in this hunt.
I guess I just see this as a fixable problem with a few options:
- Sell the machine and move on
- Do the swap
I don't see constantly reminding everyone how wronged he was helps anyone, including himself.
The same can be said for my own commentary on the issue of course, so whatever. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Quoted from zaphX:

- Sell the machine and move on

Quoted from zaphX:

- Do the swap

Quoted from Yelobird:

Doubt this will help but an offer..... IF you have the replacement playfield And your not in an emergency timeframe I would be willing to help. I travel to MN often (St Paul) so I would be willing to pick it up on my way and do the swap for you and return it on my next journey north. Think #Kingpin would vouch for me that I wouldn't steal it lol. Hate to see someone hate the hobby but respect not everyone has the ability to do some tasks. Let me know not a favor just an offer and no cost of coarse just helping the hobby. PM me if I can assist.

Quoted from Max_Badazz:

New populated LZ playfield arrived today. Easy to plug back in (three connectors and a cat5). Smooth like glass, not even a hair of a warp. Now to update the code and get back to playing it (I tried one game to make sure everything was working and its like a different game .... no more watching the ball curve into the outlanes LOL)

Quoted from lowbeau67:

Hope u get some good customer service.

Quoted from pinballaddicted:

Thanks very much. Good to see someone keeping tabs on how many games have pooling and chipping issues. Accurate data is much better than hype.

Quoted from Pin_Fandango:

washer are everywhere in a 90s game, what is wrong with just using washer. Use a washer, play, enjoy your life... life is short. You will die and that Efffin machine will still be kicking around. Enjoy it. The game is forever but you are not. Play more.
Good night.

Quoted from John1210:Only a matter of time before chipping starts... on at least a dozen posts... including upper pf. some are worse and a few better than images shown. Build Jan 21... bout 100 plays. Some post areas have already chipped
I must say recent sterns I've bought are quite solid... much improved and about as good as you can get with playfields these days. Still average... but better.
JJp... you can eat a tip truck full of dicks. What's the point of having an awesome game if the playfield is crap.
[quoted image][quoted image]

Quoted from Markharris2000:

I'm thinking that the number of units involved in their 'buy-back' customer satisfaction program could be quite small mainly due to the shipping, costs and processing involved. It's their last resort I am sure. And if the number of machines is a mere handful, I am guessing they would get the machines back to the factory, and then re-work the damage, perhaps with simple touchup and washers, and then make those machines available through non-traditional sales programs (i.e. employee purchase, top salesrep incentive programs, etc.) Too bad that quality control issues with their main source of income is problematic this far down the road.
It's pretty noteable that any manufacturer would offer to make you 100% whole on a big ticket item like this.

Quoted from mbeardsley:

Just add a washer to that, it will be fine...

Quoted from zaphX:

Data point...people said POTC was going to look like those Chevy's, and they don't. The chipping remained at the posts and hidden under washers, and the games are worth more than ever.

Quoted from zaphX:

Want to know what I think? You're addicted to the rage. You love having this axe to grind.
Prices are up right now and you could sell your game+PF for every dime you've put into it.
You've had the super-generous Yelobird offer to do the swap for you.
And yet here you are, bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching.
You don't want a solution.

Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Yup Feels like playing the quality lottery every time. Will be playing the quality lottery myself tomorrow when a NIB TMNT Premium arrives (knock on wood).

Quoted from zaphX:

That's ok, it would just be more of the same ranting that nobody should buy pinball.

Quoted from zaphX:

I think you'd be a lot happier if you stopped dedicating so much negative energy towards this issue.
It doesn't affect you any more because you're out of buying pins, right?

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

And just like that, NIB sales plummeted to a trickle.

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

It's not a pot shot. Just a shot fired at the idea that "Stop buying NIB pins people" is going to happen. It's a unrealistically simplistic.
You got a beef with JJP - like many others these days - but you are gonna have to work it out with them. Nobody is coming to your rescue with an en masse boycott.

Quoted from fnosm:

My late run WW CE has pooling and chipping. They haven't solved this issue.

Quoted from zaphX:

That being said, it's time for me to bug out of the playfield thread again and let you guys do your thing. The main instigator has moved his grievances from the owner's thread as I requested, so it's only fair for me to let you guys have your space in peace.

Quoted from zaphX:

That’s awesome Palmer . Well played.
Fwiw I don’t think it’s fine. I’m a realist and I’m dealing with it as best I can for now with plans to do a playfield swap at some point. Short term playing as usual, long term planning for some kind of repair waiting to see what that might be.
I guess the main difference of opinion here is that I don’t think JJP needs to be “forced” to find a solution; I believe they are as interested as we are in solving the problem.
Maybe I’m being naive. I just believe in assuming positive intent.

Quoted from Flipper_Ripper:

My recommendation for the next JJP game is, don’t buy it. Now...that’s not going to happen, but listen up. CEs, I can’t convince anyone to not buy. So go ahead get a CE. But that’s it. Don’t buy the LE because they will be around for years and so will the SEs. If JJP sees only 500 ppl bought their pin (CE total), message received. And you won’t lose out on your LE or SE. They either fix the problem, or have to sell those LEs and SEs at a discount, as no one is buying them.

Quoted from nicoy3k:

It’s still not a correct analogy. Chipping around posts that can be easily touched up and is invisible during gameplay is in no way akin to a broken monitor. At all.
I’m not trying to minimize the issue, at the prices we pay it’s a big deal and JJPs response has been pathetic. But the comparisons to situations where other products are rendered literally unusable is completely laughable. This hobby has been littered with pooling and chipping across all manufacturers for years and we have all enjoyed the games just as much. The issue here is with JJP and their abysmal/shady business practices. POtC with pooling and chipping are selling for 20+k, I think the games still work.

Quoted from nicoy3k:

]JJP needs to send, at the very minimum, a perfect replacement playfield to all of those affected (including myself). Of those that receive one, I imagine less than 10% would do an immediate playfield swap. The rest would simply keep it as insurance until the issues develop to the point of requiring the swap (spoiler alert likely never).

Quoted from nicoy3k:

disagree with what part. I said JJP should replace the playfield. It would be nice if you posted in complete thoughts.

Quoted from nicoy3k:

Ok so you want a replacement populated playfield. Agreed that would be the optimal solution. Sell your game if you're unhappy. I'm sure you can get 6500+ for your wonka, which is exactly what wonkas with perfect playfields were going for 6 months ago.

Quoted from nicoy3k:

Actually in your case they are mutually exclusive.

Quoted from nicoy3k:

It’s not a legal angle it’s what any business is expected to do. If the customer doesn’t like the product offer a refund.

Quoted from flynnibus:

It wasn't snark - it was reality. The 'give their money back' solution is not a admittance of fault - it is the most direct way to simply undo a business relationship and reset to zero.
The actual conversation was if buy-backs open them up to some other liability - they don't. You can simply say it is a way of appeasing an unsatisified (or unsatisfiable) customer. You give them their money back and part ways.
Your response added nothing to that conversation.