(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

61 days ago



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#488 54 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Have you looked in a stern manual in the last few years? They don't even include lists of parts like ball guides, posts, plastics, or anything... mounting hardware is way down the list of 'shit you won't find in a stern manual'
Frankly issues like the manual (since about Metallica era) are so abysmal and will really hurt us going forward.. yet most collectors are oblivious to it

This is so true....JJP doesn't even provide a hard copy (although they did on my DILE) although they do put the manual on the display, which is a nice feature. Not sure if Stern does this or not on their newer games? Sterns hard copy manual is completely worthless

#494 54 days ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

JJP sends a disk out with all games.
Their hardcopy manuals are of course beautiful, which they should be after 2 years of making them.

I actually got a disc for WOZ and Hobbit....after that they stopped (at least on my end) + their pretty useless since none of my computers use disc drives......yes they are beautiful, but for $9500 its not worth paying an additional $100 for the manual....the best thing JJP does is put the manual on the display...I've found that to be very useful

#659 51 days ago
Quoted from Pinchild:

No sir I believe both manufacturer will take care of me as they have in the past.
I trust Stern and JJP
Both proven worth

the good news is theres folks like u that are willing to roll the dice....

#789 48 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

I was thinking the exact same thing earlier. I kinda want a MBR anyways so that could be the direction that i go in.

MBR is a great game...CGC did a nice jog...I wish they would remake the MM with the larger screen to match my other remakes

#796 48 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

I struggle between MBR and MMR. Which would be your choice of you could only have one?

Thats a tough choice....my family would pick MBR LE..people bag the code, but I think its BS as its a really fun pin.....if I had to choose I might give MMR a slight edge....u really can't go wrong with either choice...I'd pick up a nice used one locally...whatever comes up first wins

#878 47 days ago
Quoted from Raegor:

Look at his prices, would you buy from him?
https://tntamusements.com/inventory/pinball-machines/
He comes off as a used car salesman anyway...

I actually really enjoy his videos...they were very helpful when I first got into this hobby....I do agree that his prices are typically on the high side, which would be fine if you were local to his shop as he does provide services.

#1099 43 days ago
Quoted from luckymoey:

I thought inflation would have a bigger effect, but $2000 then is only equivalent to about $3700 today. Economies of scale definitely have a major impact, but B/W had a lot more corporate overheads than Stern or JJP. Pinball could/should be very profitable at current prices, but I think the issue is that unlike Stern, or even Spooky, JJP hasn’t been able to maintain stable demand/consistency in its factory which can be a killer. Dealing properly with the quality issues will cause some real short term pain, but losing customer loyalty and constant demand fluctuations from poor quality could be a death spiral. Hopefully JJP, and Stern, will come out with a more transparent, customer focused solution very soon.

I think JJP's move on current games with issues is to provide a new unpopulated play field. Its not much, but at least its something. Apparently Stern has done nothing, which is pretty disappointing. Zero chance I'll be buying any NIB Stern or JJP games in the future until they both adequately address this issue. Apparently pooling is the new normal....I'd be ok with the pooling issue if the area in question didn't chip...The problem is we don't know what will happen

#1200 41 days ago

Has anyone heard back from Stern on this issue? Its not much, but it at least JJP is recognizing that its an issue and have provided free play fields to people who are affected....has Stern done anything?

#1274 39 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Im going to give them a little time and see if they get this corrected because i want a JP and a Elvira 3, but im also now considering something different for my game room like a Bubble Hockey machine because I refuse to by anothe new pinball machine with a shitty playfield. Stern needs to find a way to win me back as a customer.

I just ordered up a Super Chexx Miracle on Ice....my kids and I have played this before....its a lot of fun I wouldn't buy shit from Stern or JJP until these issues are long gone...all the people on this thread who don't think its a big issue don't have pooling or chipping on their play fields...

#1276 39 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Ive never played Bubble hockey but my buddy is getting one and its got me thinking about one a small amount at least. Ive heard many people say that they are a blast to play. I wish that i could play one somewhere but theres nine aroung that i know of. I bet a four player game on one would be a blast though. The downside to them is you cant play it by yourself.

Yea thats only downside, which makes pins, and arcades so attractive.....its a really fun game if u have people to play with....great family fun

#1294 39 days ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

My Super Chexx Pro gets delivered next week. I almost went with Miracle on ice.

Great fun for half the price of pin, and I guarantee u we won't see pooling or chipping

17
#1356 38 days ago

I asked one of my distributors for a price/delivery quote on the new Dinosaur game from Stern (premium).....I then asked if they've solved the play field issues, and he was honest and said no. He said that Stern is aware of the pooling/chipping problem and working on a solution. Also said that sales have significantly slowed on JJP and Stern games....so yes its impacting the manufacturers.....lets hope they actually come out with a solution so we can talk about something else

#1361 38 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

There are tons of people wanting to buy Jurassic Park right now if they had the confidence to do it and i am one of them. I think Stern would be wise to let it be known that the problem is resolved once they get it figured out. Of course the other problem is you got a bunch of bad games sitting in boxes at distributors right now and people will not want anything that is old stock so they wont buy because of that.

In my opinion anyone willing to roll that dice should do so assuming nothing will be done. My guess is unless your game is chipping they won't do anything about it...I hope I'm wrong, but thats my guess

#1366 37 days ago
Quoted from BOBCADE:

I was also told the issue was fixed. But in just 3 weeks how? My guess is they are just throwing washers on and waiting longer to see what blisters up before boxing. Band aided but not fixed. So I cancelled my LE as without a statement and a guarantee I don’t think anything changed.

well we'll find out soon enough when the LE's start shipping....these distributors are in a tough position...sitting on inventory that they have no idea what the status is...

#1581 32 days ago
Quoted from o-din:

Shit don't matter to some people.
They aren't worried about every little detail or what they will lose when they sell it. They just want a new game, and will take it any way it comes. Some of us seem a little anal to them.
I try to look at both sides of the picture, but on the other hand, I put too much effort into anything I do to accept poorer quality than I'm used to. I'm too frugal to buy everything brand new, but when I do, it better be the best they are capable of. I won't accept less for my money.

I'm happy were in a market where people throw stupid money at these unproven games, and then get bored after a few months and sell them at a discount....I see no reason to roll the dice on new in box games anymore (unless CGC decides to remake IJ or WW)....

#1665 31 days ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

No pooling or chipping on my nib hockey yet...[quoted image]

Looks nice !

-1
#1870 26 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Well, if they said it's not widespread, they're not indicating it didn't happen. And again, given the number of pins that were produced, and given we don't know how many have experienced chipping (I'm going to assume that Stern isnt concerned about pooling since it 's only cosmetic), it could absolutely be considered to be "not widespread".
So no, "cover-up" is equally ridiculous and accusatory.
With respect to another posters comments, assuming that all of the pooling will lead to chipping in a few years and demanding playfields be replaced is also absolutely insane. What company is going to spend money, replacing things that aren't broken.
Pinside is nuts. It COULD be the most positive place to discuss pinball, where distributors like Stern COULD ask us for opinions and feedback.
Instead, (and I'm going to quote a friend here) it's a dumpster fire that Stern understandably wants no part of.
From my point of view, you can't accuse them of lying, using words like "cover up" and also expect them to spend thousands of dollars on issues that haven't proven to be a problem yet (pooling), and also criticize them for not announcing every issue they encounter.
Their choice to deal with defects on a case by case basis is the only thing that seems to make sense around here.
You are welcome to be critical of the way they operate, and refuse to spend your hard earned cash on anything they produce.
I on the other hand, am looking forward to picking up a Jurassic Park Premium as soon as possible.
I am currently "out of F(*&s to give" as they say. If you want to hate on Stern, have fun with your Wonkas.
I'm out.

I could really care less if they admit theres a problem or not. Like you said its their choice on how they want to run their business. I do however believe it says a lot about a company on how they address issues, and there is no doubt that pooling/chipping has been an issue. Whats great is there are people like yourself that will continue to buy these games (in most cases without even playing the game), and then dump them after 6 months so people like myself can pick them up at a discount....buy away !

32
#1878 26 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:Again, absolutely ridiculous.
A car that’s defective is massively different from a pinball machine.
(I don’t want to give it away completely, but think of what happens to the user when these two very different machines fail to operate as intended)
The other thing to consider is this: Pinsiders appear to consider pooling on par with global warming. Operators likely do not share the same concern. So Stern announcing a recall and drawing attention to something that’s perhaps not even important, is not only unnecessary, it’s throwing money down the drain. That money is recouped with higher prices.
If that’s what you want, you’re on your own.

I think your missing the point...Stern chose to market to high end collectors, and priced their games accordingly. With that comes a different level of expectation

#1881 26 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

I’m not missing the point at all. We weren’t talking about how high the bar has to be for high end collectors.
But since you bring it up, are you suggesting that the owners of Pro machines aren’t entitled to the same level of quality as the LE owners? Please clarify.
My own view is that all machines should operate as intended. I would say that large chips could prevent that from happening and should warrant replacement. I would also suggest that smaller chips do not change the playability, but given the cost of these, it’s a “nice” thing for Stern to eat the replacement cost, if possible.
Pooling? Shouldn’t even be replaced for high end collectors UNLESS it’s proven to deteriorate to severe chipping in the future.
If you think that you have the right to a replacement simply because there are small wrinkles around a couple posts that you only notice when searching for, after having read about it on Pinside, that’s your right. But good luck with that.
This isn’t a Rolex or a Masseratti we’re talking about.
I would much prefer to hold them accountable to better playing auto launcher mechs, for example.

they cost as much as a Rolex ... never said Pro owners weren't entitled...pooling is one issue that may or may not lead to big problems in the future, but chipping within a year of owning a machine is ridiculous and should be replaced....Stern charges a big premium for an LE model that is basically bling as the play field/mechs are exactly the same as a premium.....with that comes expectations that that bling does chip or start falling apart in 6 months, and yes that includes the play field.

#1903 26 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Great point!
“If a game is expensive, we automatically get to amend the warranty in our favour!”
This is the ridiculousness that is Pinside.
Stern (I believe?) has stated that they will review play fields on a case by case basis. But Pinsiders are upset that Stern hasn’t made a public announcement, over an issue that so far seems to be (in most of the cases) cosmetic, only?
I’m glad we could hash this out to nail down everyone’s expectations of Stern.
Seems reasonable.

Listen these are complicated machines that are priced accordingly....nobody wants to modify anything...all customers expect is a new game with no flaws....its really that simple....if Stern knowingly ship a game with flaws than they should warrant the product. Clearly they are aware that the product is substandard as they've added washers to the games. Pooling is a more complex issue as most owners wouldn't care about a little pooling, but their concern is whether or not this leads to chipping once the game is out of warranty, which is a valid concern. From the tone of your messages u think that a little chipping is perfectly fine and the new normal. Thats great u feel that way, but I highly doubt many people would agree with you. Do you know of any cases where Stern has replaced a play field due to chipping?

#1905 26 days ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

Yes, by all means, let's flood the used sales market with defective play fields at a discount. /sarcasm

This is what I'm doing right now. I have open and regular communication with JJP and my distributor about my case, and I'm playing the hell out of my Wonka in the mean time. I'm waiting patiently for them to come up with a solution for me. But....
*tick tock tick tock*
My patience has limits.
-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107

At some point thats exactly whats going to happen....why should the NIB owner take the entire financial hit due to the play field issues? Its crazy to me that some on here think thats ok....defies logic

#1908 26 days ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

yes
They have in the past done the populated pf replacement thing. They send you a box with pre-paid shipping. You disconnect and send your entire pf.
They take off your parts and repopulate a brand new pf and return it to you. You connect your new pf.

I'm aware they've done this in the past (i.e. GB fiasco), but have they done it recently due to play field chipping / pooling issues? The perception is many have contacted Stern with this issues and I haven't heard of one case where Stern has provided a response...in the eyes of the consumer a "no response" is basically a big FU....

#1910 26 days ago

A nice thing...they sold you a product with known issues that they tried to mask with $.10 washers....Small versus big chipping...who defines that? Do either really affect game play...probably not, but they look like shit and Stern has made bank on selling games with cosmetic improvements. I understand its expensive for Stern to address this issue, but thats not the owners fault.....your logic is completely flawed

#1924 26 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Thank you for clearly demonstrating your level of knowledge when it comes to pinball manufacturing.
(Your pinball company just went bankrupt FYI)
-your Pal, “Gary”

Now it makes sense....you work for Stern....got it

#1942 25 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Try to keep up, Utah.
There’s this thing, called “the environment”. And as of late, companies are no longer allowed to use super harsh chemicals because it’s bad for this “environment”. So things have changed.

Here is the thing: just because YOU deem it to be reasonable to expect something, doesn’t mean that the manufacturers are in agreement. In this case, they aren’t. See the warranty if you want evidence.
Your expectations of what constitutes acceptable for a new product from a pinball manufacturer is pretty unrealistic in today’s world.
I LOVE the fact that this has come down to some Pinsiders stating that they demand play field perfection. It makes the discussion so much easier to comprehend. One expectation is not equal to what’s being offered. In this case, the manufacturer has put their commitment in writing. Yours is known only to you and may be subject to change at anytime without notice.

Your absolutely correct....Stern clearly has no interest in standing by their product anymore...the good news we now know this is the case, and can make an educated decision on whether to buy or not buy their product. I for one will NEVER purchase another NIB game from Stern (and I've bought several), and will tell everyone I know what to expect if they do decide to pull the trigger. These manufacturers already have it made on warranty issues as they heavily rely on operators and home owners to provide all the labor to fix their products....I'll just take my business to the secondary market, and buy their product at a discount

#1944 25 days ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

worked for "where's the code?"

That would be pretty impactful if u got 200 people wearing those shirts I'd pony up for that

#1958 25 days ago

Its crazy that Stern who is the gorilla in this industry doesn't put forth the resources to make what many would argue is the most important part of the pinball game....everything else is relatively easy to change out and many are common components used for 20+ years....instead their solution is to change the warranty and continue to put out shit play fields....

#2012 25 days ago
Quoted from gliebig:

I have put in two tickets with JJP over the past two months. Besides the automated reply of "we got your ticket", I have had ZERO contact despite several replies from myself to them.
I just spent NIB pin money on a restored ball bowler. Suck it bitches.

instead of buying the latest dinosaur game from Stern (JPLE) I purchased a Galaxy Fire electronic Dart board and a Miracle on Ice Super Chexx Pro bubble hockey game.....and saved $1500

#2051 24 days ago
Quoted from gliebig:

Where did you buy the dart board from?

https://www.arachnid360.com/2019-commercial-products/g3-fire/ ....this is the one I bought....its awesome and the kids love it....

#2052 24 days ago
Quoted from o-din:

[quoted image]

Now thats friggin appropriate....and funny !

#2077 24 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Is it more fun with four people or two? Im going to guess four?

Its great with 2 or 4 people.....4 is better, but 2 is almost as fun....the only downside is u need someone to play with

#2078 24 days ago
Quoted from yancy:

Only reason I haven’t is that my kid is having a dinosaur-themed birthday party in late October. But I’m not sure I can swallow a defective $7k decoration.

Aside from the play field falling apart Stern does make a fun Dinosaur game....

1 week later
#2185 17 days ago
Quoted from T7:

Have you waxed your game? The pics by the lane guide don't look like other issues - kind of looks like it could be dried wax???
Also, the shooter lane wear is typical of an unprotected shooter lane on Stern's - it's been that way for a while now (like 5 years). They need to be protected with a protector or mylar unfortunately, as the ball comes out of the trough with a lot of force.
The final other pic is hard to tell what's going on.

Shooter lanes shouldn't look like that on a game this new....whether u have a protector or not...

#2187 17 days ago
Quoted from T7:

I agree - but it's been that way for about 5 years.

Maybe with Stern, but not with my JJP or CGC games...

#2205 17 days ago
Quoted from o-din:

Exactly. Automotive clearcoat has to be flexible but tough. It does it's job for the most part in all kinds of extreme weather and in most cases for years. And some how they figured out a way to make the paint stick.
With pinball it is clearly a case of being cheap, and or not doing the proper research with whatever they are doing now.
If this was the automotive industry, there would be no screwing around. A recall would be ordered or possible class action lawsuits would be filed.

Yep...spot on....I wouldn't be surprised if someone doesn't hold Sterns feet to the fire....they should be held accountable

#2220 17 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Has Stern refused any returns? (Honest question)
Curious to know if anyone has been refused a return and if so, what condition their playfield was in.
It’s my impression that they are replacing these defects, despite not being listed in the warranty.
Interested in hearing if that’s not accurate.

really? so Stern has started replacing JP play fields? I haven't heard that

#2223 17 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

I specifically asked if anyone had been REFUSED.
Still waiting is not the same as refused.

I'm more interested in action....to date there has been ZERO....maybe that will change, but I doubt it....

#2226 17 days ago
Quoted from Dr-pin:

So cars, hockeysticks, industrial floorings etc are not having The same environmental restrictions that pinball has.
Have to call Bull on that one.
Incompetence is the Word. Environmental is just a really bad excuse.

Odin hit the nail on the head....its just another example of Stern being really cheap....having play field issues is inexcusable for a company of that size....they simply went to a cheaper supplier and they got what they paid for....shitty play fields...

#2304 14 days ago
Quoted from Sako-TRG:

Is it possible Stern are letting the clock run down?
Maybe keep quiet in the hope warranties expire, damage limitation.
Perhaps address the situation later down the line.
For example:-
- Customer who reported new pin with bad case of chipping soon after delivery - may have best chance of resolution by getting PF replaced
- Customer reports pooling but no chipping - no action taken by Stern. If pin then chips a year or two later - Stern put this down to wear and tear with no further action.
Just a thought

I wouldn't be surprised...

13
#2318 14 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

You’re not alone, im going on 2 months without a response. I called my distributor yesterday to have them follow up on my IMDN Premium. I got two games that i want to buy right now (JP and Elvira 3) but im not buying anything until i see what they are going to do about my IMDN game. All of this pooling and chipping has ruined the NIB experience for me.

Pretty shitty customer service when an issue goes unanswered for months....zero chance I would do business with a company who doesn't care about its customers. All they need to do is communicate that they are still working on a resolution, but no communication is bad business.

#2324 13 days ago
Quoted from jp1985:

Anyone taking bets on how many titles they release before the first person receives an adequate solution?

Stern doesn't really care about pooling or a little chipping....its their new normal...they figure they'll wait long enough and enough owners will get frustrated and sell off their machine at a loss.

12
#2328 13 days ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

its only the new normal if we accept it.

Clearly many people are fine with it, which doesn't bother me one bit (its their $)...I for one will never buy another NIB game from Stern. I'm fine with increased pricing, but I have serious issues with shitty quality, warranties, and customer service.

-3
#2355 12 days ago
Quoted from hawkmoon77:

Yeah, Stern. So many people were involved and at such high levels within the company that I had a high degree of confidence that they were committed to getting everything right.
I had good dealings with JJP in the past. Hopefully they will take care of you as well.

Are they providing the labor to remove your play field and install the new one?

-1
#2357 12 days ago
Quoted from hawkmoon77:

Yes. The distributor will be bringing it over, installing it, and sending the old one back for me.

Good to hear...

#2440 11 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

If you want a PERFECT GAME, get it restored by HEP or the like.
As i gaze amazingly and my gorgeous restored WH20 and near perfection, its just not reasonable to expect Stern, a mass produced game, 10K+ per year to be able to reach the same quality without costing MUCH more. Get it?

Nobody expects perfection + its subjective....what they do expect is that a $9K machine doesn't start falling apart in first 6 months. My real issue is how Stern handles these issues....not responding for weeks/months on these issues is really bad customer service, and frankly arrogance. At some point it will bite them in the ass

#2447 11 days ago

I've purchased many NIB games, but due to the FACTS (shitty customer service) have stopped purchasing anything new from JJP or Stern. I'm perfectly happy buying on the secondary market or waiting for CGC to release their next game.

#2454 11 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

There you go Ptown, I’ve stated repeatedly over the years that is the smart way to do it!
And btw, my MBRLE is a beautiful awesome machine so I agree on the CGC next game

u got that right....MBRLE is incredible....

#2514 11 days ago
Quoted from Talon2000:

Few hundred more plays and it just get's worse. Still no word from Stern, phone calls and emails. Still waiting.[quoted image][quoted image]

Gotta love Stern customer support....best in the business How hard is it to respond to its customer base....

#2583 8 days ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

Unacceptable.

Sterns new norm...get used to it....u roll the dice on all these new games....

#2598 7 days ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

Just had family over playing my Super Chexx. Super fun for everyone. My sister in-law never played one in her life. After two games and some pointers she was loving it.

zero chance you'll have pooling rock solid game

#2629 5 days ago
Quoted from AliciaC:

And this is why I have not pulled the trigger on recent new Stern/JJP games. I decided to pick up a HEP TAF instead as I'm 100% confident the play field will not fall apart. Until folks stop buying defective games, the behavior will not change.

Not sure why u feel this way...Stern just hired a QA director...problem solved

#2640 4 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

To each his own brother or sister.
JPLE is one of those pins you can’t wait to get home and play.
I’m having a blast and it’s NOT falling apart
And maybe after 100,000 plays I’ll send it to HEP for a restore

At my pace it would take 200 years to get to 100K plays

#2647 4 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Like I said. Which ones?
I don’t drain on my JPLE. Maybe “play better” or the setup is bad
If you can decide you think a pin sucks after 15 minutes of playing it then you must have been high

JP has a great layout, and is a really fun game....I personally don't care for the animations or cartoon dinosaurs. I really wish Stern would have secured more of the license, but hey thats just one mans opinion.

#2658 4 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

That’s why you don’t need to ever worry about pf issues
Case closed

Amen....always nice to get closure

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