Quoted from flynnibus:

Have you looked in a stern manual in the last few years? They don't even include lists of parts like ball guides, posts, plastics, or anything... mounting hardware is way down the list of 'shit you won't find in a stern manual'
Frankly issues like the manual (since about Metallica era) are so abysmal and will really hurt us going forward.. yet most collectors are oblivious to it

Quoted from TheLaw:

JJP sends a disk out with all games.
Their hardcopy manuals are of course beautiful, which they should be after 2 years of making them.

Quoted from Pinchild:

No sir I believe both manufacturer will take care of me as they have in the past.
I trust Stern and JJP
Both proven worth

Quoted from Who-Dey:

I was thinking the exact same thing earlier. I kinda want a MBR anyways so that could be the direction that i go in.

Quoted from Who-Dey:

I struggle between MBR and MMR. Which would be your choice of you could only have one?

Quoted from Raegor:

Look at his prices, would you buy from him?
https://tntamusements.com/inventory/pinball-machines/
He comes off as a used car salesman anyway...

Quoted from luckymoey:

I thought inflation would have a bigger effect, but $2000 then is only equivalent to about $3700 today. Economies of scale definitely have a major impact, but B/W had a lot more corporate overheads than Stern or JJP. Pinball could/should be very profitable at current prices, but I think the issue is that unlike Stern, or even Spooky, JJP hasn’t been able to maintain stable demand/consistency in its factory which can be a killer. Dealing properly with the quality issues will cause some real short term pain, but losing customer loyalty and constant demand fluctuations from poor quality could be a death spiral. Hopefully JJP, and Stern, will come out with a more transparent, customer focused solution very soon.

Quoted from Who-Dey:

Im going to give them a little time and see if they get this corrected because i want a JP and a Elvira 3, but im also now considering something different for my game room like a Bubble Hockey machine because I refuse to by anothe new pinball machine with a shitty playfield. Stern needs to find a way to win me back as a customer.

Quoted from Who-Dey:

Ive never played Bubble hockey but my buddy is getting one and its got me thinking about one a small amount at least. Ive heard many people say that they are a blast to play. I wish that i could play one somewhere but theres nine aroung that i know of. I bet a four player game on one would be a blast though. The downside to them is you cant play it by yourself.

Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

My Super Chexx Pro gets delivered next week. I almost went with Miracle on ice.

Quoted from Who-Dey:

There are tons of people wanting to buy Jurassic Park right now if they had the confidence to do it and i am one of them. I think Stern would be wise to let it be known that the problem is resolved once they get it figured out. Of course the other problem is you got a bunch of bad games sitting in boxes at distributors right now and people will not want anything that is old stock so they wont buy because of that.

Quoted from BOBCADE:

I was also told the issue was fixed. But in just 3 weeks how? My guess is they are just throwing washers on and waiting longer to see what blisters up before boxing. Band aided but not fixed. So I cancelled my LE as without a statement and a guarantee I don’t think anything changed.

Quoted from o-din:

Shit don't matter to some people.
They aren't worried about every little detail or what they will lose when they sell it. They just want a new game, and will take it any way it comes. Some of us seem a little anal to them.
I try to look at both sides of the picture, but on the other hand, I put too much effort into anything I do to accept poorer quality than I'm used to. I'm too frugal to buy everything brand new, but when I do, it better be the best they are capable of. I won't accept less for my money.

Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

No pooling or chipping on my nib hockey yet...[quoted image]

Quoted from Chambahz:

Well, if they said it's not widespread, they're not indicating it didn't happen. And again, given the number of pins that were produced, and given we don't know how many have experienced chipping (I'm going to assume that Stern isnt concerned about pooling since it 's only cosmetic), it could absolutely be considered to be "not widespread".
So no, "cover-up" is equally ridiculous and accusatory.
With respect to another posters comments, assuming that all of the pooling will lead to chipping in a few years and demanding playfields be replaced is also absolutely insane. What company is going to spend money, replacing things that aren't broken.
Pinside is nuts. It COULD be the most positive place to discuss pinball, where distributors like Stern COULD ask us for opinions and feedback.
Instead, (and I'm going to quote a friend here) it's a dumpster fire that Stern understandably wants no part of.
From my point of view, you can't accuse them of lying, using words like "cover up" and also expect them to spend thousands of dollars on issues that haven't proven to be a problem yet (pooling), and also criticize them for not announcing every issue they encounter.
Their choice to deal with defects on a case by case basis is the only thing that seems to make sense around here.
You are welcome to be critical of the way they operate, and refuse to spend your hard earned cash on anything they produce.
I on the other hand, am looking forward to picking up a Jurassic Park Premium as soon as possible.
I am currently "out of F(*&s to give" as they say. If you want to hate on Stern, have fun with your Wonkas.
I'm out.

Quoted from Chambahz:Again, absolutely ridiculous.
A car that’s defective is massively different from a pinball machine.
(I don’t want to give it away completely, but think of what happens to the user when these two very different machines fail to operate as intended)
The other thing to consider is this: Pinsiders appear to consider pooling on par with global warming. Operators likely do not share the same concern. So Stern announcing a recall and drawing attention to something that’s perhaps not even important, is not only unnecessary, it’s throwing money down the drain. That money is recouped with higher prices.
If that’s what you want, you’re on your own.

Quoted from Chambahz:

I’m not missing the point at all. We weren’t talking about how high the bar has to be for high end collectors.
But since you bring it up, are you suggesting that the owners of Pro machines aren’t entitled to the same level of quality as the LE owners? Please clarify.
My own view is that all machines should operate as intended. I would say that large chips could prevent that from happening and should warrant replacement. I would also suggest that smaller chips do not change the playability, but given the cost of these, it’s a “nice” thing for Stern to eat the replacement cost, if possible.
Pooling? Shouldn’t even be replaced for high end collectors UNLESS it’s proven to deteriorate to severe chipping in the future.
If you think that you have the right to a replacement simply because there are small wrinkles around a couple posts that you only notice when searching for, after having read about it on Pinside, that’s your right. But good luck with that.
This isn’t a Rolex or a Masseratti we’re talking about.
I would much prefer to hold them accountable to better playing auto launcher mechs, for example.

Quoted from Chambahz:

Great point!
“If a game is expensive, we automatically get to amend the warranty in our favour!”
This is the ridiculousness that is Pinside.
Stern (I believe?) has stated that they will review play fields on a case by case basis. But Pinsiders are upset that Stern hasn’t made a public announcement, over an issue that so far seems to be (in most of the cases) cosmetic, only?
I’m glad we could hash this out to nail down everyone’s expectations of Stern.
Seems reasonable.

Quoted from smalltownguy2:

Yes, by all means, let's flood the used sales market with defective play fields at a discount. /sarcasm

This is what I'm doing right now. I have open and regular communication with JJP and my distributor about my case, and I'm playing the hell out of my Wonka in the mean time. I'm waiting patiently for them to come up with a solution for me. But....
*tick tock tick tock*
My patience has limits.
-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107

Quoted from Whysnow:

yes
They have in the past done the populated pf replacement thing. They send you a box with pre-paid shipping. You disconnect and send your entire pf.
They take off your parts and repopulate a brand new pf and return it to you. You connect your new pf.

Quoted from Chambahz:

Thank you for clearly demonstrating your level of knowledge when it comes to pinball manufacturing.
(Your pinball company just went bankrupt FYI)
-your Pal, “Gary”

Quoted from Chambahz:

Try to keep up, Utah.
There’s this thing, called “the environment”. And as of late, companies are no longer allowed to use super harsh chemicals because it’s bad for this “environment”. So things have changed.

Here is the thing: just because YOU deem it to be reasonable to expect something, doesn’t mean that the manufacturers are in agreement. In this case, they aren’t. See the warranty if you want evidence.
Your expectations of what constitutes acceptable for a new product from a pinball manufacturer is pretty unrealistic in today’s world.
I LOVE the fact that this has come down to some Pinsiders stating that they demand play field perfection. It makes the discussion so much easier to comprehend. One expectation is not equal to what’s being offered. In this case, the manufacturer has put their commitment in writing. Yours is known only to you and may be subject to change at anytime without notice.

Quoted from Whysnow:

worked for "where's the code?"

Quoted from gliebig:

I have put in two tickets with JJP over the past two months. Besides the automated reply of "we got your ticket", I have had ZERO contact despite several replies from myself to them.
I just spent NIB pin money on a restored ball bowler. Suck it bitches.

Quoted from gliebig:

Where did you buy the dart board from?

Quoted from o-din:

[quoted image]

Quoted from Who-Dey:

Is it more fun with four people or two? Im going to guess four?

Quoted from yancy:

Only reason I haven’t is that my kid is having a dinosaur-themed birthday party in late October. But I’m not sure I can swallow a defective $7k decoration.

Quoted from T7:

Have you waxed your game? The pics by the lane guide don't look like other issues - kind of looks like it could be dried wax???
Also, the shooter lane wear is typical of an unprotected shooter lane on Stern's - it's been that way for a while now (like 5 years). They need to be protected with a protector or mylar unfortunately, as the ball comes out of the trough with a lot of force.
The final other pic is hard to tell what's going on.

Quoted from T7:

I agree - but it's been that way for about 5 years.

Quoted from o-din:

Exactly. Automotive clearcoat has to be flexible but tough. It does it's job for the most part in all kinds of extreme weather and in most cases for years. And some how they figured out a way to make the paint stick.
With pinball it is clearly a case of being cheap, and or not doing the proper research with whatever they are doing now.
If this was the automotive industry, there would be no screwing around. A recall would be ordered or possible class action lawsuits would be filed.

Quoted from Chambahz:

Has Stern refused any returns? (Honest question)
Curious to know if anyone has been refused a return and if so, what condition their playfield was in.
It’s my impression that they are replacing these defects, despite not being listed in the warranty.
Interested in hearing if that’s not accurate.

Quoted from Chambahz:

I specifically asked if anyone had been REFUSED.
Still waiting is not the same as refused.

Quoted from Dr-pin:

So cars, hockeysticks, industrial floorings etc are not having The same environmental restrictions that pinball has.
Have to call Bull on that one.
Incompetence is the Word. Environmental is just a really bad excuse.

Quoted from Sako-TRG:

Is it possible Stern are letting the clock run down?
Maybe keep quiet in the hope warranties expire, damage limitation.
Perhaps address the situation later down the line.
For example:-
- Customer who reported new pin with bad case of chipping soon after delivery - may have best chance of resolution by getting PF replaced
- Customer reports pooling but no chipping - no action taken by Stern. If pin then chips a year or two later - Stern put this down to wear and tear with no further action.
Just a thought

Quoted from Who-Dey:

You’re not alone, im going on 2 months without a response. I called my distributor yesterday to have them follow up on my IMDN Premium. I got two games that i want to buy right now (JP and Elvira 3) but im not buying anything until i see what they are going to do about my IMDN game. All of this pooling and chipping has ruined the NIB experience for me.

Quoted from jp1985:

Anyone taking bets on how many titles they release before the first person receives an adequate solution?

Quoted from NeilMcRae:

its only the new normal if we accept it.

Quoted from hawkmoon77:

Yeah, Stern. So many people were involved and at such high levels within the company that I had a high degree of confidence that they were committed to getting everything right.
I had good dealings with JJP in the past. Hopefully they will take care of you as well.

Quoted from hawkmoon77:

Yes. The distributor will be bringing it over, installing it, and sending the old one back for me.

Quoted from iceman44:

If you want a PERFECT GAME, get it restored by HEP or the like.
As i gaze amazingly and my gorgeous restored WH20 and near perfection, its just not reasonable to expect Stern, a mass produced game, 10K+ per year to be able to reach the same quality without costing MUCH more. Get it?

Quoted from iceman44:

There you go Ptown, I’ve stated repeatedly over the years that is the smart way to do it!
And btw, my MBRLE is a beautiful awesome machine so I agree on the CGC next game

Quoted from Talon2000:

Few hundred more plays and it just get's worse. Still no word from Stern, phone calls and emails. Still waiting.[quoted image][quoted image]

Quoted from gdonovan:

Unacceptable.

Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

Just had family over playing my Super Chexx. Super fun for everyone. My sister in-law never played one in her life. After two games and some pointers she was loving it.

Quoted from AstonEnthusiast:

And this is why I have not pulled the trigger on recent new Stern/JJP games. I decided to pick up a HEP TAF instead as I'm 100% confident the play field will not fall apart. Until folks stop buying defective games, the behavior will not change.

Quoted from iceman44:

To each his own brother or sister.
JPLE is one of those pins you can’t wait to get home and play.
I’m having a blast and it’s NOT falling apart
And maybe after 100,000 plays I’ll send it to HEP for a restore

Quoted from iceman44:

Like I said. Which ones?
I don’t drain on my JPLE. Maybe “play better” or the setup is bad
If you can decide you think a pin sucks after 15 minutes of playing it then you must have been high

Quoted from iceman44:

That’s why you don’t need to ever worry about pf issues
Case closed

Quoted from JWP72:

UPDATE: Stern is sending me a brand new unpopulated playfield

Quoted from EricHadley:

I’m enjoying my Elvira and the Playfield looks perfect so far with almost 800 games on it

Quoted from megaladon:

I owned a American Pinball Houdini briefly and sold it to buy another due to a playfield flaw. I Contacted them and they never replied or acknowledged the issue. Same problem of clear coated binding to whatever is above it eventually cracking/damaging pf. Piece chipped off and I reglued it.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Quoted from CLEllison:

The last two tickets I submitted to JJP weren't answered. The first one was submitted ~ a month ago. The second one was submitted 3 weeks ago.
Nothing. NADA. ZIP. Sales on the other hand has never been a problem.
I've given up on asking for any support from them. I own this machine lock stock and barrel. Pinside is my support channel now for this game.

Quoted from bigd1979:

What's wrong with the wire form and which pin?

Quoted from CLEllison:

There's a lovely trade called metal fabrication. Either try to bend it and if you screw up then have them fix/redo it. Either way you're good to go. Obviously JJP isn't going to be of any help here.
I'm never worried to try/do anything. There's always someone to fix what I may break.

Quoted from snaroff:

Shame on you for assuming all of us "slackers" roll over when we receive less-than-perfect Stern products. The reality is many of us reach out to our distributors and Stern to highlight and/or resolve issues. The process is imperfect, but so is pinball. If the process is so burdensome, folks should simply avoid purchasing new games and stick to buying older games that don't suffer from the newer "issues".

Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

Why can't they sell it? Let them eat it, it was their screw up.
People are seeing pooling issues out of the box. You can't tell me someone didn't spot it when doing QC. Going even further, mine started chipping in about 50 plays.
Are you telling me Stern doesn't put a few hundred games on a couple of these machines and then run them through QC again? If so, whoever is doing QC over there needs to be fired.

Quoted from snaroff:

Agree 100%. I've dialed back my NIB purchases to limit my exposure/risk. Waited 1 year to pick-up a BM66 and was rewarded with new code, a nicely modded flawless example, and saved over 1k OTOH, I'm taking a chance with JP2 since I've played it on location and love the way it shoots. So while patience can pay off, I'm still a sucker for the adrenaline rush of a great shooting game (which Stern still delivers on, despite the build quality missteps).

Quoted from cliff_clavin:

Many merchants who accept visa and mc won’t accept American Express as the fees charged to the merchant are much higher.

Quoted from iceman44:

If you haven't heard that Christopher Franchi interview it confirms again what we all know.
Gary and crew think they are so smart seeing how much they can squeeze out of a game and keep the prices sky high.
I would be thinking about how we could squeeze MORE in even if i had to raise prices to meet our margins. The "wealth effect" and great economy is not going to last forever! Because when the shit hits the fan, and it will, people will remember how they were treated.
The customer first should be what they think about every day. How can we keep delivering a greater pinball experience to our customers?
I think most designers, coders and everyone else that work at Stern are of that mindset and care passionately.
It's Gary and his partners grabbing the short term gains, and at the same time its setting up for longer term pain. That +25% production can turn around to -25% in the blink of an eye when you take your customers for granted AND then other factors start to against you like the economy.
I think you made the 100% right move getting that MMrRE

Quoted from newpinbin:

I am done with NIB overpriced games. There is no way to justify these prices for what you are receiving. These distributors are make over well $1500 on every game sold.

Quoted from Orko:

Two JJP pins down and out at level 257.[quoted image][quoted image]

Quoted from TomGWI:

Sigh![quoted image]

Quoted from Happy81724:

We will see, I went with a large distributor so maybe that matters. Either way, if they do nothing I won’t buy another NiB from them again. I bought three this year and I know I’m small potatoes but it’s not bad for just a huo.
Luckily it’s not super visible as long as it doesn’t get any worse. It’s behind the angle.

Quoted from Extraballz:

Stern has the best manufacturing plant in the business by a long shot. Yet they currently make the lowest quality pins in the business. Think about that for a minute. The low quality going out the door isn’t as simple as the QC dept missing things. The cut cost for larger and larger profits is absolutely deliberate. They know exactly what they are doing and don’t seem to care what their customers think. Money is king. Stern just wants it’s customers to think about theme and code. Of course they do. Those two things are subjective and no real answers can be reached. Stern doesn’t want to talk about materials used now compared to the past or number of mechs/features now compared to the past. On those subjects real answers can be reached because it is not subjective.

Quoted from luckymoey:

JJP is seriously screwed up to have one of the owners and face of the company personally promise new play fields to a number of its most important customers and then fail to deliver after many months with no real update or commitment. Combined with the major deterioration in their in-house tech / parts support, they seem to be in serious business trouble or all Jack's proclamations about valuing their customers is BS.

Quoted from donkadelic:

And yet at the end of the day no widespread dimpling problems with Spooky, American or CGC.
Funny how that works.

Quoted from PBFan:

Interesting thread.
Everytime I end up linking to a thread that references dimples I run down to the basement and check my playfields looking for dimples and I can never find any. All my Stern pins are HUO (Xmen, TWD, Metallica, Spiderman LOTR, Tron LE, Iron Man) and none of them has any visible dimpling. Ball swirls yes but no dimpling. My TZ, Shadow and even my very well routed Tales From The Crypt do not have any dimpling. The Tales has wear on the scoop and the Shadow had a worn (now repaired) sanctum area. The Tales even has a few dings (not golf ball like dimples) in the playfield and the Xmen even has a little bit of wear around the edges of the Blackbird scoop - but no signs of dimpling (from any angle). My TWD has dimpling on the outer magnet ring but NONE on the wooden playfield - weird but true. My HUO games don't get a lot of play - my IM for example has about 3,500 games and my Tron about 2,500 games. My MET (most played in my collection) would have about 5,000 games.
While I do agree that all wooden playfields must dimple to some extent when impacted by a metal ball - not all games/playfields are created equal because I have seen examples of games where the playfields look very dimpled after fewer than a 100 plays. If you have to put your nose to the playfield and use a magnifying glass to see dimples then they really don't matter but if the playfield art looks pixelized from the light reflecting from all the dimple faces from 3 feet away (while playing) then I can understand why those aesthetics matter to many people when they have just spent thousands of dollars on a new pin.
Dimpling doesn't really affect gameplay so it can be overlooked by many people but not to everyone. It is a matter of opinion as to how serious the issue is but that is the purpose of a discussion forum. We shouldn't be taking a difference of opinion as a personal rejection.
I personally hate the look of a dimpled playfield where the dimples are easily visible when playing. However, it doesn't affect my enjoyment of the game when I am playing someone else's but I wouldn't want to own it if I had the choice of a nicer looking playfield. Why do some playfields scar easier than others? I don't know but they just do. Why does it bother some people more than others? I don't know but it does. I accept that.
Now playfield chipping and ink-lifting (on new pins) - well now that is a bigger issue.
Keep on flippin folks!

Quoted from PinballSTAR:

Lo and behold... I just found two emails from Goetz to support my side of things...
1. Email after the pooling was noticed where he alludes to 'you said JJP would take care of me' - no specific mention of anything other than that. No mention of a populated PF. You'd think he'd bring that up then huh ? Remember you offered me this or that ? Nothing. Just interested in starting the process of a claim. He actually asks for an unpopulated playfield, then says if after the swap that one is bad, he'll then ask for a populated one. Funny that's not how you're saying it went down now are you ?
2. Most importantly and really eye opening to me :
Another email where he emailed Jack and I with his 'deal' for JJP - Sell him an upcoming game (he assumed it was GNR) - sell him the CE version at the cost of the LE ($ 3,000 discount). He goes on to mention he would 'be quiet', nobody would know, etc... EVEN offered to sign an NDA and nobody 'online' would know other than he got an unpopulated playfield he was happy with..
JJP obviously refused. This guy is a player folks - he's lying to you all to stir the pot to cause shit for JJP - willing to drag people like me into the mud who tried to help him. Tried to strongarm JJP with a veiled threat to get what he wants. And now makes up this 'populated playfield' story to stir the pot to shit on JJP and for some reason throw me into the process. He also tried to screw all the rest of YOU too by working a secret deal for himself that nobody would know about and when that tactic didn't work then he comes here to make lies up.
THIS is what is at play. Dirty pool.
Maybe go read your email of 9/5/19 and 9/9/19 Geotz then maybe you can come back on here and report back.

Quoted from PinballSTAR:

At the time when he asked - the situation was that the thought was or it was fact that the posts were sharp and cutting the clear and they were sending out the post kits as a 'fix'. There was no major issues at that time... so yes, my feeling would always be the company will take care of issues that may occur as they all try to. Yes, granted AFTER that the PF issues were then found to be more severe and more widespread and involve multiple companies. At the time there was a kit fix for what was seen as a minor issue with some, not all games... so my answer was legit given the timing / current situation. All these companies want to do the best and yes that's my feeling is that they ultimately do want to take care of the customer in the end as best they can.
You are welcome to come to my office and you can read the emails from Goetz I allude to. It's nothing short of extortion - tells JJP give me what I want I'll stay quiet and I'll sign an NDA - does that sound like it's cool to you ? Has any one else in this thread done that ? He didn't get what he wanted so he upped the ante and somehow brought me into it and tried to get JJP to give him something he wanted. Say all you want about the PF issues, and I won't disagree with much there - it's a bad situation for everyone. There is no 2 sides to this story, I the conversation as he stated never happened, the emails prove it. It was made up to put pressure on JJP, involve me, and also pull the wool over every single one of you. You all should be pissed off because if you think this behavior helps the situation for everyone one bit, you're wrong.
I understand you are mad I've never discounted that in any capacity... The whole point of my posts had to do with the lies stated about me after my hand was forced. I don't disagree with the PF situation one bit - I'm not defending or calling anyone wrong on that. But the manner in which this one person tried to extort the company, lie about me, and used Pinside and all of you for his benefit, is wrong. Period.

Quoted from romulusx:

When JJP had issues with the first run of Wonka’s that shut down production!They fixed the issues and restarted production and me and as far as I know other owners have been very pleased with the latest run.No pooling no chipping no ghosting Problem solved

Quoted from PinballSTAR:

I give up...
I remind you I only got involved in this because I saw Goetz post that he didn't get his playfield yet. He didn't ask me about it, nothing - I saw the post and I emailed him and Jack to get a status update. From there the lies about the populated playfield started, months after everything started with his claim. I did above and beyond - I inserted myself into the situation to try to HELP him.
To say that he is not wrong to lie here to everyone to extort the company with the deal of give me a $ 3,000 discount on the next game (where was his outrage then - he still wanted another JJP game ? ) with the promise of I'll stay quiet, I'll tell everyone I got an unpopulated playfield and I'm happy with it, etc... Its WRONG. Period. It's wrong to each and every one of you who are looking for adequate solutions. Would you be so kindly about him if you found out today that he got a $ 3,000 discount and you didn't or would you be roasting him ? Please... JJP did the right thing to rebuff him even though it would have been easier to pay him off and shut him up.
This guy is a player and I proved it - he tried playing JJP, he tried playing me, and he tried playing every single one of you ! I did what is in my control as a distributor I put the customer on the path of resolution and I checked later to see if I could do more for him on my own.
Being upset with the PF situation and how he went about it are two separate things..

Quoted from bigehrl:

Joe just proved to this community that this dude lied to everyone, from his distributor, to the manufacturer, to everyone on Pinside. Not to mention tried to work backroom shady deals to benefit himself, and screw the rest of the buyers. It's mind-blowing to me that anyone cold overlook that, or still continue to point any fingers at Joe or Jack. As far as I'm concerned, he has shown that he's an untrustworthy selfish snake, who deserves nothing. I don't care what version of what game you bought, You play by the same rules as the rest of us.
I bought my first game with Joe late last year. a MBR Standard Edition, or whatever they call the lowest model. Joe had no reason to do me any favors or trust me more than anyone else. When I told him I needed a week or two to move around some money and pay in full, he just sent me the game and told me to start operating it, so i can start getting some income from it. He had no reason to do that, other than to be helpful and make an impression. And he took a risk that I may keep the game and never pay him. Needless to say I made it a point to get him paid immediately following.. Integrity, Honor, and Trustworthiness are all that matters in business. Him and I showed each other that we possess these characteristics. I can say confidently that this Goetz character does not. Period.

Quoted from bigd1979:

Someone has to buy it nib at some point for us to be able to buy a nice used huo tho lol...

Quoted from smalltownguy2:

Go back and re-read my post. Focus closely on the "negotiate" part.
-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107

Quoted from DerGoetz:

He could have said "no promises" and all would have been fine.

Quoted from Skyemont:

The moral of the story is ALWAYS buy used. That’s what I have started to do.

Quoted from Rager170:

JJP should be holding their playfield manufactures responsible for the costs to replace all around. We do this in my industry all the time and the manufacturers understand this...

Quoted from snaroff:

Lucid post. Just a few comments:
- One thing I've learned over the years is there is no such thing as preferred treatment! I've dealt with 6 distributors over the years and they all seem to be at the mercy of the manufacturer. In a sane world, the distributors would have more clout.
- I totally agree that unpopulated PF's are a really wasteful solution for 99.5% of the population. PF swaps are wildly complicated.
- I like your suggestion of a price break on a future game, but I would be a bit more aggressive. For example, a Stern Premium for the price of a Pro...which at Stern's BOM cost difference is a no-brainer!
In any event, sorry about the grief and hope something good comes of it.

Quoted from Mike_J:

Eventually, distributors will be a thing of the past. When big bucks are on the line and the manufacturer will not acquiesce, they are rendered useless.

Quoted from snaroff:

Now you are being unfair.
As individual customers, we (DerGoetz, Who-Day, etc.) aren't in a position to fix this issue for the community. For example: Years ago, Stern provided a populated AC/DC PF to me correct the cloudy lower PF problem. Does the fact that I received a populated PF imply that I don't give a shit about other AC/DC owners? No. Should I have refused the populated PF until a community wide solution was developed? Of course not!
As a distributor, YOU have the leverage...the larger the distributor, the larger the leverage. The distributors are in the best position to "Judge" if a claim is valid AND monitor how many defective units were sold through their distributorship. At the moment, we have no idea how many defective PF's have been sold. If the issues are rare enough, I would imagine it would be easier to negotiate with Stern on resolving the issues.
Bottom line: Having been in this situation, it just seems like distributors aren't fighting for us (in general...not talking about you specifically).

Quoted from thirdedition:

That's a great idea, call for the elimination of a guy who is actually helping people. I don't understand this thought process, get rid of distributors like Joe who are actually trying to help customers. Instead buy direct from the company who put out the bad product and isn't standing behind it....

Quoted from snaroff:

As someone who has been purchased NIB since 2004, the general vibe I've gotten from Stern distributors over the years is this: Stern is fairly unresponsive to "us" (i.e. it's distributors), so if you have a serious quality issue, you need to deal directly with Stern.
Since a very large % of pin purchases are from remote distributors (and are unable to come to your home to fix something), the distributors end up being useless for most transactions. So, a pile of money is being made by the distributors with no insurance for selling the defective products to it's customers. To be honest, even when it comes to getting replacement parts, you are at Sterns mercy! Most recently, I've been waiting 6 weeks to get a couple parts for my JP2! (and need to follow-up with Chas today). Distributor unable to help expedite. A complete shit show, unfortunately.

Quoted from Who-Dey:

Joe is probably a decent guy, I dont doubt that a bit but if distributors have no influence on the manufacturer then why do we need them? I would just rather buy factory direct and cut out the middle man and have the savings passed on to me.

Quoted from SkillShot:

It appears that people recognized pooling issues on JJP Pirates and it continued into Wonka. JJP initially didn’t much of anything as far as I can tell to rectify the issue or even acknowledge that there was a problem to even begin with. I imagine distributors had to be made aware of these issues as well, but that didn’t stop anyone from selling defective games.
I used to buy games from Jack when he was a distributor for Stern, but I’m very disappointed in how he responded and handled these issues. Definitely gives me pause when considering any future JJP titles. Pinball is expensive and this is unacceptable.

Quoted from RC_like_the_cola:

I'm all for Jack making these owners whole, but with the low production of this game, we both know, no one is taking a loss on resale.

Quoted from RC_like_the_cola:

Agreed. I went over my BM66 with a fine toothed comb when I read about this stuff and luckily no issues. I do hope JJP figures something out for these owners. I would also love to get a new POTC, now that they seem to have their clearcoat issues figured out (according to statements from newer run Wonka owners).

Quoted from Seatmandan:

The quality controls in place are typically done at the supplier level per ISO standards. This is the case with FSS, (full-service suppliers) HOWEVER as you state- a quality metric is typically in place at the OEM level to VERIFY said purchased parts. This is how it's done in the auto industry (which I work)
I'd be interested to know HOW this was laid out in the SOW (statement of work) and MSOW (manufacturing statement of work) purchase order between JJP and Mirco. Since cars and trucks can kill people when quality is not adhered to, part rejection happens all the time here in the auto industry, and thus, would delay the launch of a new vehicle.
But, like everyone says here in this thread all along- It is JJP's obligation and duty to make sure they're not putting sub-standard playfields in pinball machines, and them and them alone to stand behind the ENTIRE product in the event of an issue. They, in turn, then go after Mirco for damages. I can't for the life of me understand why JJP wouldn't do an "entire playfield swap" program with all of us early buyers from the defective playfield batch.

Quoted from Rager170:

They cant afford to QC their products?? Not doing that will cost them a lot more in the future.
And if you meant they cant afford replacements.. it should be no cost to them. Their manufacturer should be giving replacements as they made defective products.

Quoted from gliebig:

How does anyone possibly know that they are running on fumes??
Pretty sure JJ is backed by several people with F#ck You money? Certainly they can afford to replace a couple playfields. They just don't want to.

Quoted from gliebig:

bs

Quoted from gliebig:

You said they can't afford it. I call bs. They just won't do it. Huge difference.