(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern

By f3honda4me

63 days ago

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#119 62 days ago
Quoted from DennisDodel:

There is a myth that old glass window panes are thicker at the bottom because of the glass "flowing" to the bottom over the decades. Not true but I wonder if this is a possibility with clear coated playfields. Will gravity cause the clear coat to slowly pool downward until it hardens?

It depends. I can see that happening but would need a combination of a couple of things.

With coatings, if you are dip coating and then hang drying then yeah, pooling is an issue. Can be mitigated (not eliminated) with proper masking.

Same thing can happen with spray or other coating techniques and laying flat to dry/cure, but in my experience the biggest potential for problems is with dip and hanging.

There are so many variables when coating an object that it can quickly become an art over a science. 6 sigma can’t save you here. Drives manufacturing engineers nuts.

Without knowing the process they are using exactly, (coating product, coating application type, age of mixed product before applying, cure cycle, application room temperature / humidity, etc...) all I can do is shrug and say maybe.

Another comment: no such thing as a “fully cured” coating. Only a “cured enough” coating. From what has been stated here some people are witnessing products that had an insufficient cure. To me, that suggests that the manufacturer applying the coating has been too aggressive in optimizing their cure cycles and haven’t adequately captured the tails of the distribution curve.

For example, I could give you a butter coating today and a diamond coating next century. The sweet spot is somewhere in between.

Old saying where I used to work: Cost, delivery, quality. Pick two.

#168 61 days ago
Quoted from wmanningiv:

One week old JP on location in NYC.[quoted image]

Now that’s just disheartening.

Quoted from kidchrisso:

Is it worth taking the glass off so air can flow over the playfields while the game is not in use to help with curing???

Unlikely. Especially if they are using a bake cure. Also, if they are doing the assembly while it’s still not fully cured...damage is already done.

#212 60 days ago
Quoted from JodyG:

I'm really starting to think this is a heat and humidity issue during manufacturing. The Stern factory is likely not air conditioned, and we know these JP games were built in the last week or two, when we have had some very hot weather. Does the new water borne clear suck humidity back no into it if applied in a heavy layer? Does the heavy layer not fully cure under the current curing conditions at the playfield factory? Is the water based clear sucking humidity back into itself again after the normal curing process at the factory?
Is the clear trapping the humidity in the wood and causing a delamination of the printing and softer clear coat? I had a gottlieb machine once that spent time outdoors under roof on a golf course in Maryland humidity. When I went to mask the playfield for touch-up, the playfield artwork came up in sheets and completely delaminated from the wood when I removed the mask. I believe the humidity wicked into the wood and caused the ink and clear coat to release itself. Could this be happening with the new clear coat?

Exactly the kind of questions I am asking myself.

#245 59 days ago
Quoted from John_I:

If this is a case of the new clears curing more slowly, is there any way to make them cure fully once they are set up in your home?
Maybe leave the game on 24x7 to keep the internal temperature up? Open the game and blow a fan indirectly over it? Put it out in a hot garage in Florida? Blow a space heater under the game?

Quoted from pinballinreno:

Maybe remove glass, leave out in the sun for a couple hours a day for a few days.
UV cure?

Get out your grow lamps and go to town!

Seriously though, it’s probably well past too late for the end consumer to fix this. Damage is already done before it gets in your hands.

#248 59 days ago
Quoted from John_I:

Yes and no. If there is some way to complete the curing process quickly and completely, maybe the damage will be not get worse. People have reported that the clear seems to be still soft.

My thinking is that installation over the under cured soft clear is leading to the movement of the clear “puddles”. If this is the case, damage already done. If it’s combined with a screening adhesion issue...nothing you can do about that either.

#272 58 days ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

I think you may be right.
This picture isn't clear coming off.
It's like a bad playfield overlay that is coming off.
Makes sense that the ink is not adhering to playfield.
How much more does it cost to do good old screen printed?

Ask CGC how that good old silk screen process is going.

Silk screen is a labor of love with a beautiful end product but high rejection rate and production delays. I suspect parts for the machines and operators are hard to come by too. I can see how a manufacturer would be tempted to use an alternate process.

Unfortunately the alternative is looking like a massive post production headache that will take a good bite out of the cost savings and customer satisfaction.

#315 58 days ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

Source? Also don’t forget mirco is not in the US. And given that many playfields do not have this problem, I don’t see this being because of some new regulation.

FYI, Eurozone has stricter, (in some cases far stricter) enviro regs than the USA. In general you can’t even import products that had a “naughty” process done to them, even if the chemicals used in that process don’t make it into the final product.

In the good ole USA for better or worse we don’t care nearly as much HOW something is made, especially if it is made elsewhere.

#618 54 days ago
Quoted from pninja005:

Do any CGC pinballs have these issues?

My MBRLE has dimpled quite a bit, but there are quite a few airball opportunities that help to explain that, (and honestly it doesn't really bother me and doesn't seem excessive).

As best I can tell, none of these other playfield issues. Hell, the only thing I have had to do to it is adjust a switch and ask for a tilt bob lock that was missing. Absolutely great experience all and all.

CGC is good in my book.

#745 51 days ago
Quoted from Ranhorton:

Now I’m thinking AFMr since it sounds like CGC has the quality control in order.
Can any CGC owners confirm their playfields are free from significant issues like stern is dealing with?

My sample size of one CGC game owned and half a dozen played at various locations says no to significant playfield issues.

3 weeks later
#1960 27 days ago
Quoted from yancy:

Where? (I'm not doubting you, just really curious to see.)

I thought that the Elvira reveal had evidence of clear blistering as well. Dunno if it was made in the last week or so though...

#2059 26 days ago
#2095 26 days ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

Perhaps they need to go back to screen printing since this digital application of art does not appear to be working for pinball?

I’ve mentioned it before, but switching back to screen printing is probably not even possible at this point.

My impressions:
1) That tech is aging fast so when a screening machine breaks down (and it will) it’s hard to find parts.
2) Those that know how to do it are nearing retirement. Hard to find replacement technicians to run the presses since it really isn’t taught or pursued much any more.
3) throughput issues

So sure the new way is likely much cheaper, but they probably felt they needed to make the switch anyway given obsolescence of the old ways.

At least in my experience, my company pushed hard to replace working tech as soon as the vendor stopped supporting the tech. Freaked out the business people to have an unknown cost/liability just hanging out there.

#2114 26 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Ehh... screen printing is alive and well in other industries. The beauty is there is no tech to support! The only thing to go “eol” is your screen material... and that is not happening now. It’s literally squeegees on a pivot arm.
And for volume... the industry makes far less playfield these days then in the past... so this isn’t a scale constraint.
Digital printing is desirable because it’s more efficient. Less labor, less time, less space, and less waste. Nothing to do with obsolescence.

Here’s to us both hoping I am 100% wrong!

1 week later
#2415 14 days ago

Your theory seems pretty well thought out to me hawkmoon77

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