Quoted from libtech:
they obviously know about it due to the washers, the question is will they take care of affected buyers, or just say its normal like ghosting?
Damn, should a guy cancel and wait...
Yes, unless you like doing this:
Quoted from yancy:
I'm not normally a very reactionary person, but I'm thiiis close to canceling my JP2 premium. Which is a bummer on multiple levels. Maiden is my favorite game ever, so I've been counting the days to KME's second effort. My kid is having a dinosaur-themed birthday party in late October, which the game should arrive in time for. And I have friends who work at Stern, who I don't enjoy calling out publicly. But this head-in-sand response from the company gives me little comfort or confidence in the product:
"No widespread issues here at Stern, can’t speak for other manufacturers though. If anyone does have any issues with their games though they should definitely be reaching out to their dealer or distributor." Source: https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/this-week-in-pinball-august-26th-2019/
I don't care what their definition of "widespread" is; I've seen enough that I don't want to gamble on NIB until this issue is acknowledged and/or corrected.
Don't cancel. Put emotion ahead of logic. Itll be fine . Emotionally driven decisions always work out better.
Quoted from yancy:
That is awesome!! I was totally being tongue-in-cheek. Emotionally-driven decisions are AWFUL. Need proof? Ask any military member who knows a brand new airman who met a girl at the bar, talked to her for two weeks and decided to get married. Or that poor airman who just graduated BMT and got a 2019 Challenger for a ridiculous low price of $38K with no money down and a 33% APR loan. "He let me drive it right off the lot, man!!"
Quoted from HookedonPinonics:
I guess I'll chime in since everyone is and also since I have lived thru it...
Cropped the book short
Look, that's a good "Don't sweat the small stuff" speech. I'm going to say it straight, and this is NOT a retort to you directly. This is "how it is, and to hell with euphemisms":
This community should not have to deal with this as if it's "par for the course". Absolutely no way in hell that buyers should "accept the flaws" when they did nothing wrong to begin with. All they did was buy the game, set it up, and *POOF!* - clearcoat issues with artwork falling off. That is not a flaw that should have to be accepted. That is sub-manufacturing, and the parties responsible should get ready for the ramifications on this one.
A game made in the 80s, ok, yeah, of course the game is going to beat - it's 31 years old, and there are too many variables there: where did it come from, how long on route, was proper maintenance performed, who played it, how rough were they with the game, were the balls changed out or did they become rolling sandpaper, etc. A game from 1988 and a game that has been out less than a month are to quote Pulp Fiction "...not even the same fucking sport".
These games are chipping and artwork is being lost in a matter of WEEKS vs 31 years. No one should pay $12.5K for a fucking box of lights and be ok with damage occurring through no fault of their own.
Someone's jean rivets rubbing up against a cabinet and scratching the artwork - ok, fine - shit happens. Jurassic Parks being out, what, 3 weeks and damage appearing in sub-1000 plays for normal play? Totally unsat.
If buyers look past this, shit, we might as well start selling whitewood games. Maybe just take out fuses and be accepting when random fires break out. Let's solder wires directly to female IDC pins and save some money on doing away with IDC and molex connectors. Or hey, let's take out the board LEDs and expect buyers to solder them in themselves.
Where does it end? What is "too far" ? If this community looks past playfields with missing artwork, the sky is the limit.
For as much as this industry has kept raising prices at an insane rate and cost-cut their machines into the ground (looking at you, Stern and you JJP taking mechanisms out ...Spooky and CGC, you get a pass for now...don't fuck it up), there has to be a line, and I think the community is starting to laser-engrave that line into the concrete.
Quoted from Psw757:
I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again.
We are our own worst enemies....
Seriously, this shit can’t become acceptable.
But it will. People wont stop buying. As soon as BTTF, Jaws, Muppets, GNR whatever stupid ass "dream theme" comes out, they'll announce they have fixed the problem with zero proof or explanations and this community will open up the cash gates.
Just watch. Some people here cannot help themselves.
As a manufacturer, if you cannot support your customers by either:
A. Making them a 100% solid product or...
B. Making your customers whole for putting out a shoddy product (especially when you had a previous game showcasing these issues)
Then maybe you do not need to exist. Maybe you've been on borrowed time (read: investors), and the sand in your hour glass is running out. Prices going up at an asinine rate hasn't helped your case at all.
I'd rather have no pinball machine then one falling apart with clear breaking, art chipping, decals peeling, ghosting inserts, etc. How did B/W do it for SO LONG without any issues? I get B/W cost-cut too (looking at you, IDC connectors); however, wow, the bumps this hobby has been through the last 3 years is nuts.
Expo is going to be very interesting. Who's ready for Elvira, BTTF, GNR, TMNT, whatever other dream theme they may choose to release to help you forget about ClearGate....? You ready to TRULY say you're cutting Stern/JJP off until "this is fixed" ? We'll see.....
Quoted from PBFan:
I don't normally reply to these threads but here goes. I don't understand why some pinsider's attack others because of differing opinions on a discussion forum designed for discussion. This ultimately boils down to a consumer choice issue based upon confidence in the product. Some people have higher expectations than others (and that is ok). All I know is that I love playing (entertainment), fixing (learning), talking (socializing) and buying (consuming) pinball. These are the things that make the hobby for me. I typically own about a dozen pins and have never bought a NIB although I have been ever so close several times.
The biggest reason for not buying a NIB (big ticket item) for me isn't financial it is that I have to buy such a complicated product sight unseen with limited support (labor vs. parts). When I buy used I can see/check exactly what I am getting and make the final decision so I usually buy HUO products from a trusted seller. The quality issues we are seeing will affect my (me personally) future buying habits with respect to the game models (HUO or not). It sounds like many others (whether or not everyone agrees) are of the same opinion. The issues are affecting consumer confidence which will lessens sales (whether that reduces profit margins in the long term is a matter of speculation).
I am a very service oriented person and I will pay more for an item if I am confident that I will receive good service. I was ready to buy a JJP POTC LE after playing a friends and then suddenly these issues became apparent and I held off - glad I did now. I don't think the potential for aggravation in what is supposed to be a hobby (for me) would have been worth the gamble. It is apparent that quite a few "active buyers" are changing their buying habits as a result. Some people may not like that fact (and rebel against it on the forums) but it is what it is.
I took my JJP POTC money and added 30% more and directed it to my other hobby and bought my dream motorcycle (used 2014 BMW K1600 GTL). It was used and in beautiful condition (but it could have hidden issues - can't see inside the engine) but I personally had the chance to check it out, had a mechanic check it out and ride it. It has some very minor paint-chips from rocks (has about 15k miles) which is to be expected and was acceptable by my standards. Large paint chips and fairing cracks would not have been. Oh, after I took possession (out of warranty for 2 years) it had one minor issue with a part ($250) that was more prone to failure so I drove it to the local dealer (didn't buy the bike from them) and mentioned it. They said that BMW likes to protect their brand and they would make a call for me - 2 days later they said BMW had approved a replacement (no charge) and the dealer offered to replace it at half their normal shop rate. I could have done the replacement myself but figured they earned their $75.00 and it was so convenient for me. That is the type of service I like. I have shopped at that dealership frequently over the years and they consistently give me a reason to keep on returning - so I do.
At any rate my consumer confidence in pinball manufacturers to consistently deliver a satisfying buying experience to the consumer has fallen considerably so I made a decision to direct my disposable income elsewhere. How many others are doing the same? I guess it doesn't really matter as long as there are new buyers to take their place right?
Hope everyone is having more fun flippen than fixen, or reading forums, or submitting warranty claims. Cheers!
Well said. I have done the same. I'm jumping hardcore back into my firearm hobby, and I forgot how therapeutic it is to be at the range, outside in the shade, blue skies, nothing but me, my firearms, some targets, and good people on each side of me sharing love for the hobby. It is way more fun than this hobby right now and so much less expensive. I can buy 5-10 firearms for the price of one "lifestyle branded" pinball machine at the CHEAPEST.
Thanks Stern and JJP for helping me get back into my other hobbies more. Life is better without you.
And thank you, B/W, for maybe cost-cutting here and there - but delivering on areas of the game where it fucking matters like, oh, I don't know - THE PLAYFIELD. Wish ya'll were still around.
Quoted from nasco62:
So when did JJP and Stern start adding washers under posts? Stern are so cost conscious they would not have added them all of a sudden unless they served a purpose, the only reason I can see is to protect/hide suspect clear coat? I think I will avoid any titles with washers under posts until this is sorted out. Absolutely terrible for those affected.
That's exactly what it is., and their silence speaks volumes on the veracity of that claim.
Quoted from AUKraut:
Is it just me, or are the JP2 LEs taking a LONG time to ship compared to previous Stern releases, as if they are being held up for some reason? Heck, even the code release yesterday was PRO only, which confirms that no LEs haven't shipped....
Well, yeah. They're prolly going "awww fuck guys. How are we going to get over THIS hump? They're not letting this one go over at Pinside....! We might have to actually address it."
Quoted from GamerRick:
Well first off, my distributor is replacing my Wonka. It’s beyond repair. I expect that one to be fine. We’ll see. On the POTC, the playfield is fine for probably a while. Maybe I get ten years out of it. The playfield would not be in best shape by then anyway even if pristine now after heavy use of ten years. So instead of having to buy a new playfield, I already have a free one. So now let’s say I pay $1500 to have the playfield swapped and re-populated, it really only cost me $500 more because I already have a free playfield. Then I have a new machine ten years after purchase. Not that bad actually. I get your point of course, but I’m satisfied with this. Obviously there are people who aren’t.
That's their hope. Sub-par quality product, price increase, and customers are ok with it.
Maybe we'll get to the point they remove fuses, fires break out, and customers are ok with parts of their house burning up - especially in all those basements.
Over-the-top silly, I know, and that's intentional. Never thought I'd see the day people pay $8K+ for a product, get a PF on the side with the eventual need for it to be swapped out on their less than 30 day old toy, and be ok with it.
Quoted from yancy:
Only reason I haven’t is that my kid is having a dinosaur-themed birthday party in late October. But I’m not sure I can swallow a defective $7k decoration.
With respect, your kid can have a very fun birthday party without you getting a $7K kick in the junk.
Get your logic ahead of your emotions. If you order one with the evidence we are starting to see with the "extremely low number of defective claims here at bullfuckingshit...I mean.... Stern headquarters," you have no one to blame but yourself.
Quoted from kermit24:
Before Stern swapped out my Ghostbusters PF they sent me a bottle of clear. That won't be the final resolution for those with a truly bad playfield. The frenzy on here, while understandable to a certain extent, is also quite over the top. Give Stern a chance to make it right. Can't speak for JJP as I have not been a customer, but I have not seen an example of a populated playfield replacement from them.
Yeah, thankfully they made an announcement ackowledging the PF problems, helping give consumers and customers the assurance they need that the problem has been identified, that they understand it's a problem to address, and that they're hard at work fixing it to regain the community's confidence.
And they did it without a single word:
Wonder if they can hire Cliffy to start making apron-long cliffies for artwork that tears off the PF. I'm sure they'll make an announcement ANY second......!
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