Just a quick question...the playfield issues discussed here (dimpling, pooling, chipping, etc...) have they been limited to just Stern and JJP? Or do the CGC remakes have the same problems?

I'm looking to purchase a new MBr soon, and would like to know if I'm likely to see these problems (I've never bought a NIB machine before).

Okay, but then comes the inevitable question..."How has CGC handled dimpled playfield issues? Better or worse than JJP and/or Stern?"

Well, my WhiteWater has over 25 years of play on it now, and has nothing like the dimpling that I have seen some pictures of here. I guess my question should have been phrased as "Is the CGC playfield quality similar to the original B/W quality, or is it more like the current JJP/Stern quality?"

Well, there are several possible things that a manufacturer could do to resolve a defective playfield...

1) Arrive with a team of employees to provide an entire new machine and remove the existing defective one.
2) Ship a new machine, requesting that you ship the defective one back.
3) Send a new populated playfield, requesting that you send the defective one back.
4) Send a new un-populated playfield, telling you to just trash the defective one.
5) Tell you that "we have no warranty on playfields...tough luck".

Most customers would probably agree that #1 and #5 are unreasonable, but whether #2, #3, or #4 are reasonable depends on the person (and therefore are "negotiable").

Well, they COULD do a playfield swap program whereby you send them your populated playfield, and they use your parts to populate a replacement playfield and then send it back to you.

Unfortunately, this would be very labor intensive and therefore expensive (not to mention shipping issues).

Ideally, JJP would just do an exchange of populated playfields, but if they are in financial distress, I can see why it would be difficult.

But this brings up a bigger point, why would I want to buy an expensive item from a company that can't afford to support it (assuming they even wanted to)?

If I'm buying something like this, I want to be sure that problems will be handled (and parts will be available). If JJP is on the "edge", then I'm going to look elsewhere.

I don't think it's really a manufacturing issue. It's more of a business sense issue.

The emphasis now is on short term profits rather than on long term profitability. Investors want "returns" now (and don't really care if the business is viable in two years - by that time they've moved onto some other investment anyway).

I worked for a small (profitable) company that went public. Suddenly we were making decisions that we knew would hurt us long-term but would keep Wall Street happy "this quarter". Each quarter we would jeopardize future profits for short term gains. You can guess what happened from there...but that's okay, by that time the original investors had long since departed with their "returns".

It may not be that they get paid per machine...but if worker "Joe" is only assembling 3 machines a day (and keeps bringing up "problems"), but worker "Fred" assembles 5 machines a day (and never seems to mention any issue)...which guy gets to keep the job when funds get tight?

Eventually, you have a lot of "Freds" and very few "Joes" making your machines.

Except for when you've got distributors waving money saying "where are those machines you promised" and creditors waving bills saying "when are you going to pay these".

That's when you're laying off the Joes and hiring more Freds.

Well, I didn't mean that this was a good idea, but it tends to happen nevertheless.

Well, that's a bit strong. Stern and JJP have had some problems with bad playfield clearcoat lately, but the other manufacturers have done better.

All the manufacturers have had some problems with playfield dimpling due to the wood being not as hard as the "old days". However, it appears that this problem has been minimal with CGC and Spooky games.

Personally, I would avoid a NIB game from Stern or JJP until I am certain that they have resolved their problems, but am considering one from CGC. I would probably consider one from Spooky, but none of their current themes interest me.

I wanted to like it (in general I like Pat Lawlor's stuff), but no, I don't care for it at all. Virtually everything about it was annoying, but hard to describe why.

Kind of funny how people have such different opinions of machines. I finally got some playing time on a CC recently and found that I really liked the layout, and could see how (with completed software) it could have been a really good machine.
OTOH, I don't understand what people see in TOTAN...like you said "boring meets snoozefest" and a big stupid spinner in the way of everything.

There ARE some strange cuts there that don't match up time wise.

At 2:10, when he hits the playfield with a hammer, there is another hammer sitting on the table at the bottom left of the playfield, but during the "close-up" at 2:11, that hammer has vanished, only to re-appear at the second close-up at 2:13.

At 2:24, when the playfield is hit with the sledgehammer, that regular hammer is still there, but then at 2:31, during the close-up, the sledgehammer is sitting on the table to the left of the playfield (and the regular hammer has vanished).

The regular hammer then reappears at 2:43 again.

Now, I am NOT saying that they faked this or that they swapped playfields, or anything like that. I suspect that the close-ups were different "takes" than the shots from further back - with the hammer present for the back shots, and missing in the close-ups.

I don't see any "marks" that indicate they changed out playfields. There is a glare/reflection spot that could be mistaken for a mark, but if you watch the whole video, you can see that spot move around with the camera.

I have wondered why no manufacturer has used a "powerball" instead of steel for their games.

If they did this, the coil strengths could be reduced overall, and you'd have less playfield damage over time (and probably fewer broken plastics too).

I realize that traditionally you want the "silver ball", but it seems like this might be worth a try.

Well, I was unlikely to buy either a new Stern or JJP anyway (not a fan of Stern machines in general, and JJP machines are too expensive for me), but I am certainly not going to buy one until/unless I have faith that the machine will hold up.

The real questions are:
1) Are the collectors who would normally buy new Stern/JJP machines buying less of them due to these issues?
2) Are the operators who would normally buy new Stern/JJP machines buying less of them due to these issues?

I can't claim to KNOW the answers to these questions. But my guess would be that some collectors are buying less (mainly because there are some other viable options right now - such as CGC and Spooky), and that operators are probably not very concerned.

So I guess a secondary question becomes:
How much does Stern/JJP care about a small reduction in their share of the home market, and is it worth increasing their costs to hopefully recover that share?

Yes, that's sort of my point. Even though a bunch of pinsiders may have stopped buying NIB Sterns, there are operators willing to take those machines (dimples and all). I doubt that a dimpled machine (or even a "cratered" one) earns much less than a good one. So, as far as Stern is concerned, all is good.

Now, maybe when those operators try to re-sell the machines after they've stopped earning, and find that the resale value of badly cratered machines is very low, things will change - but I doubt it.

Are you saying that Munsters and BKSOR were bad due to lack of earnings, or bad due to build quality (or both)?

As an operator, does the dimpling issue affect earnings on location or just affect re-sale value of the machine? I would think that most customers wouldn't even notice the dimpling (unless maybe it is really awful) until well after they have put in their money.

Thanks, that's very interesting info from a perspective that most of us here don't have.

Interesting...I haven't gotten to play Stranger Things yet, it was out of order (and being worked on) when I went to the nearest place that has one. Surprised that Star Wars is still earning, as I found it to be quite boring (and I am a big original Star Wars fan) - I guess the license makes all the difference.

One of the few places nearby that has multiple machines, never seems to update the software (their BM66 is still running the code it shipped with). Do "regular" (non-pinside) customers ever realize that the software gets improved over time? How often do you think customers play the lame "early code" and then never go back to a machine since they have already decided that it sucks?

I really don't understand Stern's strategy of releasing games with such incomplete software. All it can do is give a game a bad reputation that will be hard to overcome. Even if the software turns out to be great later (sometimes MUCH later), lots of operators don't bother with updating and I imagine lots of customers have moved on by then.

Sure, Stern wants to get the machines out the door ASAP, but selling a crappy game early can be a lot worse than selling a completed game later. That's something I DO have some experience with.

I don't know what a "bricks" is...and you only like the "progression" because you get see it...many machines on location don't get updated, meaning lots of players only get to play the early/poor code - and then decide "this machine sucks".

But what is important is when the was playfield made, not when the machine was assembled. You could have a machine assembled in November with a playfield made much earlier or not.

So is there any general consensus as to how a "hardtop" holds up in a location setting?
In general, what Haggis is showing is really just a new "harder" hardtop system (using a scratch-resistant acrylic rather than whatever plastic the hardtops use).

Do the hardtops have problems with ball tracks or not staying "bright and shiny"?

That's great. So how much time and effort will it take to do the swap?

I really was just curious about how hard it is to do a playfield swap on a JJP machine.

You do bring up an interesting point though...if the pooling and such does not affect gameplay, and no one is going to do the swap, why was there so many complaints about needing a new playfield? People need something to fill their closets with or something?

Well, if I bought a new car, and it had a damaged fender, I would want the fender replaced. I would not insist on an additional new fender to store in my garage so that I could sell the fender when/if I sell the car.

Either I care (and therefore want the fender actually fixed/replaced), or I don't care...in which case...I don't care.

If the car had a bad paint job, would you feel better if they handed you a gallon of paint?

A raised insert will affect the motion of the ball, so it is a huge deal - a much bigger deal than the micro-dimpling on many playfields.

IMO, small dimples that can only be seen in just the right light (and don't affect the ball motion) are just a minor issue. "Cratering" (big dimples that are easily seen and may affect the ball) and raised inserts are a big issue.

Maybe Stern's plan to to wait long enough that they can then say "Sorry, it's out of warranty now - you should have done something about it sooner."

But it's not just $600 for clearcoating...

First, you have to jump through a bunch of hoops to get a new (unpopulated) playfield - which Stern may or may not actually provide (and even if they do, it may take a year or more).

Then, you have to send the new playfield out to someone who can do the clearcoat (and will hopefully do a good job) - this assumes, of course, that the new playfield doesn't also have it's own issues.

Finally, you need to swap the actual playfields. You say this will be your first machine - so I suspect you don't realize how difficult (not to mention time-consuming) a playfield swap can be.

If you think you can solve the problem of a bad playfield by throwing an extra $600 at it, you will be very unpleasantly surprised.

I don't understand...are you saying that CPR has their own wood mill?

If not, then why couldn't CPR be getting their wood "directly" from the same mill that Stern uses? Just because they have different specs doesn't mean they aren't from the same mill.

I didn't think you really were saying this...but you didn't answer my question...

My point exactly...

My first question was facetious...because you were using a nonsensical argument to support your point - that because the pf's had different specs they must come from different mills, even though CPR says that they don't.

I think asking for a new spaceship is completely reasonable (and CGC typically has provided similar parts to other people here).
I think the chance of getting a new populated playfield is close to zero. MAYBE they would provide an unpopulated one, but I suspect that even that is a stretch.

I agree that the blemish sucks, but I suspect that you'll need to live with it, unless they are willing to take the entire machine back and replace it with another one (which they might do if it really has no plays on it).

Good luck, and please let us know what your result is.

I don't see how you can claim it is "mostly remedied" when new machines being shipped right now still have the issues. It doesn't matter that the playfield might have been manufactured a while ago - what matters is that if you buy a NIB machine today you are still likely to have the problems.

Sure, MAYBE, if you buy a machine a year from now, you'll get a playfield that is being manufactured "now" and will be better. Of course, we won't really know that until a year from now when those playfields are actually inside the machines.

But I suspect we'll still be having this discussion in another year as well.

And the clearcoat on the McRib does not chip...

Some people here like to claim that "the bad playfields are only a tiny percentage and it's all blown out of proportion".

If that's really the case, then Stern /JJP should have no issue/problem replacing the playfields on that "tiny number". The fact that they can't / won't means that they realize that if they replaced all the bad playfields it would cost a fortune.

This is further proven by the fact that even those who do get promised (an unpopulated) playfield end up having to wait months/years for it to be re-made. If it was only a tiny number of playfields there would be enough spare playfields available to send out to those "few" people.

With any big/expensive product (i.e. cars, refrigerators, etc.) there will be a small number of defective ones that get through. It's how the company handles those problems when they arise that matters. Stern and JJP have shown clearly that they have little to no interest in standing behind their products.

Partly this is due (as has been stated above) that they (at least in Stern's case) have a long history of selling to operators rather than end users. However, they have now moved into the (potentially more lucrative) area of the home user - allowing them to significantly increase their prices for "Premium" models. But that lucrative market also expects a far more responsive support structure, which Stern/JJP have not stepped up to provide.

The "cargument" has been made a thousand times, but more realistic is a "frigument". If you bought a $3000 refrigerator that didn't work, how would you feel if the manufacturer said "well, we'll send you a new compressor, but you'll have to install it yourself. And we don't have any spare ones for your model right now - but we'll send you one the next time we re-make your model. Probably in about 6 months or so..."

The Stern "quality department" is just a table in the corner where they stack the "Quality Inspected By : " stickers.

Yeah, not only would I be unwilling to do a playfield swap...I don't even know where I could hire someone to do a swap for me.

So, to me, a machine with a bad playfield (and a spare replacement field) is about the same as a machine with a bad playfield.

On a related note, is there a list / thread here somewhere where repair services (including stuff like doing a playfield swap) are advertised?

I see lots of threads about machines/parts for sale, and machines/parts wanted, but not much about "services available".

Well, I'm glad that you are happy, but that resolution would not be enough to make me happy. If you don't mind doing the swap yourself, that's fine, but I think it is unreasonable for Stern to assume that an unpopulated playfield is of use to most retail customers.

Did they say when you can expect this playfield? Some people have had to wait many months for a playfield that they have been promised.

Except that he already PAID for that playfield - it was supposed to be included with his machine. Instead, they provided an unusably warped playfield that obviously didn't have the "lotta labor" it was supposed to have.

Well, I've been fixing my own machines for a long time (bought my first in 1984), but I've never done a playfield swap - and I'd be quite intimidated in trying it. Additionally, I don't have the extra room (or some of the tools) that I would need to do a swap.

But the real point is that these people have bought a defective machine, and the manufacturer wants to just send out a part and be done with it. That would be fine if the part was a leg that can just be bolted off/on (or even a board to swap out). But replacing the playfield requires a lot more work/time/knowledge/space/tools than many people have - including me.

Stern's support team is still in the mindset of "these route operators can swap a playfield if need be", but Stern's sales team is thinking "we can sell these highly profitable LE versions for home use and make a bunch of profit". These two perspectives are in conflict.

You'd need to pack it very carefully. You wouldn't want it to get warped in shipping...

Yes, this is an amazing offer. My hat is off to you, sir.

And Yes, giving him $1000 to do the swap is probably fair.

If JJP and/or Stern were shipping unpopulated playfields AND including $1000 for someone to be paid to perform the swap - then you could argue they were making people "whole". But just shipping a piece of painted wood is not the same thing.

Just add a washer to that, it will be fine...

Well, it's a "fail" if they sell thousands, but can only produce hundreds...leaving thousands of pissed off customers waiting for their machines.

Well, physics was simpler back then...there weren't any of those pesky quarks and gluons and muons and such to worry about.

Life was easier when it was just F=ma. Now it's all relativistic time-dilation and stuff.