(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern

By f3honda4me

6 months ago

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#207 6 months ago

I'm really starting to think this is a heat and humidity issue during manufacturing. The Stern factory is likely not air conditioned, and we know these JP games were built in the last week or two, when we have had some very hot weather. Does the new water borne clear suck humidity back no into it if applied in a heavy layer? Does the heavy layer not fully cure under the current curing conditions at the playfield factory? Is the water based clear sucking humidity back into itself again after the normal curing process at the factory?

Is the clear trapping the humidity in the wood and causing a delamination of the printing and softer clear coat? I had a gottlieb machine once that spent time outdoors under roof on a golf course in Maryland humidity. When I went to mask the playfield for touch-up, the playfield artwork came up in sheets and completely delaminated from the wood when I removed the mask. I believe the humidity wicked into the wood and caused the ink and clear coat to release itself. Could this be happening with the new clear coat?

#371 6 months ago

Where's #1 JJP fan Dr. Freightener at during all this? Strangely quiet lately...

#397 5 months ago

I think the problem here isn't cure time...its probably an issue with humidity or improper mixing of the two parts of the clear coat before application. If the mix is off, the clear will never cure.

#400 5 months ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

HEP said something that made a lot of sense. He indicated that the fact that the playfield ink comes up with the clear almost makes it seem like possibly a playfield screen/printing/ink issue. He said something along the lines of if it is a adhesion issue it needs to be fixed immediately moving forward by adding some type of adhesion promoter to the ground floor of the playfields or finding a product that bites in better.

I don't totally buy this...the clear is not hard enough, and the ink adhesion does not have any effect on that. When your fingernail can still mark the playfield after 6 months, you have a problem in the clear itself.

The clear may be bonding to the printed artwork better than the wood- think of it as a tug of war. Something has to break loose. The ink layers themselves, the printed ink to wood bond, or the ink to clear coat bond. The weakest connection will be the first point of failure. We also may be seeing more than one problem at work here. It could be plausible that the water based clear causing the ink to lift easier on top of also being a bad application of the clear product. My money is on the notion that the ink adhesion is fine, the clear is not hard and the movement of the clear is causing the ink to sheer off its bond with the wood. Correct the clearcoat issue, and the ink delamination issue isn't actually an issue.

#457 5 months ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

The balls can not get even close to touching the washers.

I always keep my loose balls away from the washer...that's some nightmare fuel there.

#465 5 months ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

It's sort of ironic that you can pay JJP extra for shiny RadCals eye candy
In all honesty, I would be willing to pay extra for a PF with a better coating using higher quality clear - something that actually matters

This isn't possible...their games are already built to last, its right on their web site!!

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#821 5 months ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

explain why it doesn't do it on bare wood then?
only where art is

With a properly cured clearcoat, it will not happen in either scenario. The printed ink is just the weakest bond here, but the ink should never be forced to sheer from the wood in the first place if the clear was of proper hardness. They fact that the clear is bunching up is enough to tell you that the soft elasticity of the clear is causing the ink bond to sheer from the wood. Fix the clear and the problem goes away entirely.

#832 5 months ago
Quoted from donkadelic:

Because the clear coat has nothing to latch onto essentially. As other posters have said and Spooky has done on ACNC, no art, no problem. I don't see what changing the clearcoat mixture is gonna do if the art underneath won't stay stuck to the board. Could we see a "spooky treatment" revision coming from JJP & Stern?

Because the clearcoat is soft. Clearcoat should never be able to bunch in on the first place. It should be rock hard and not accept fingernail marking. The printing has absolutely nothing to do with this.

#849 5 months ago
Quoted from MurphyPeoples:

For What It's Worth... I watched Todd N. Tuckeys latest video he posted a couple of days ago #1514.
In it he reviews two Stern Munster Color LE's he has for sale. At time mark 13:40 Todd states:
"We've had an awful lot of games pass through here at TNT. I've had ZERO playfield problems or complaints. We haven't experienced any, and
nobody has called us with game they've gotten. And no electronic problems. We've had ZERO issues".
Now I know he's a distributor, and he is in the business of selling games, but I found his comment interesting and heartening as well.
You can catch it here:

Does he really sell many NIB games? His past NIB prices have had me not even consider him.

#892 5 months ago
Quoted from jp1985:

This seems like an attempt to get this thread locked based on politics.

Let's dial it back a notch. You really have to go nutty to get a thread locked on here, and I'm okay with that. If the mods have an issue, the appropriate users will be moderated.

1 week later
#1380 5 months ago

Just played an early JP...no major pooling that I could see.

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1 month later
#2623 4 months ago
Quoted from Utesichiban:

I apologize if this has already been discussed but does anyone know if any of the early run Guardians of the Galaxy games have had these pooling and/or chipping issues?

My December 2017 GOTG has no issues.

1 week later
#2759 3 months ago

Buddy got a new JP...2 bad coil stops and an insert sunk in about 1/16", which effects gameplay. Hopefully Stern takes care of his PF for him.

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1 week later
#2911 3 months ago

Shame on people for accepting an unpopulated playfield as an acceptable remedy. Stern sold a defective product, end of story. Their options are to come pick their machine up and send a new one, or send someone out to swap in a populated playfield. Anything less is enabling Stern to produce even crappier products because they know they can get away with it.

#3051 3 months ago

Automated up in Connecticut takes plastic for payment.

#3138 3 months ago
Quoted from newpinbin:

I am done with NIB overpriced games. There is no way to justify these prices for what you are receiving. These distributors are make over well $1500 on every game sold.

Care to back up your $1500 claim with some non-anecdotal proof?

2 weeks later
#3198 79 days ago
Quoted from hawkmoon77:

Not me. I emailed them and was told it is "backordered". From what I hear, best chance is sometime in Jan.

I believe they are making Stranger things already...hence the "backorder".

#3209 78 days ago

Stern is still doing full populated playfield swaps, but the bar is really high....like 5 levels of approval to get one approved.

#3262 72 days ago

I think folks need to start naming distributors who are not doing their jobs as distributors. I think you will find some pretty popular ones that seem to "lose" emails about customer service problems, yet respond in 5 minutes to a sales inquiry.

1 week later
#3316 65 days ago

Guys, you need to CALL Stern, not email them. They always answer the phone during business hours. Emails are mostly blown off. The threshold for getting a new populated playfield is very high, needing the approval of all 5 people in the chain to agree it is bad enough before the new populated playfield will be agreed upon. One "no" vote and you're SOL. The process is slow, because these people only get together once a week. Call them, and keep calling them until you have answers.

#3406 61 days ago
Quoted from imagamejunky:

I am very very happy to report that I just got a phone call from Stern this morning. They are shipping me a populated playfield. This is very good news. And an early Christmas present.
Stern is doing the right thing!

Don't get in too big of a hurry...I know people who had their populated playfield swap approved months ago and nothing is happening.

#3410 60 days ago
Quoted from newpinbin:

Who did you speak with?

Chaz is who you will wind up talking to.

#3497 56 days ago

I have no dimples in playfields I've sprayed with DuPont Chroma.

#3648 53 days ago

Local JP pro here on location appears to have peeling clearcoat in places now. Born in August 2019.

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#3650 53 days ago

Not unless the whole upper playfield comes from the factory that way.

#3670 51 days ago

I'd be curious to see if some of these super dimpled Stern playfields accidentally got cut on the bad side instead of the good side. Hey Gary, why not raise the price from $5,899 to $5911 and stop giving us a shit playfield surface?

#3760 48 days ago

I can drop a hammer off a ladder onto my solid bamboo floor and not dent it. 5000 on Janka scale.

Also, Phenolic sheet will not ever dent. Doesnt warp in the heat, either.

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#3864 45 days ago
Quoted from HighVoltage:

My point is really more that there has to be something explaining the variability. If you claim it's just the wood, and the wood is consistent, what explains the variability? I think it's likely numerous factors, including inconsistencies in wood and clear.

Stern is using multiple clearcoating subcontractors. Start there.

1 week later
#3942 36 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Yeah. I wonder if Stern and or JJP could implement an online mode for games that only works if the game itself recognizes the correct pitch (within a certain degree), and that the glass is on. The glass part could be pulled off by some type of marker on the glass and or the lockdown bar / glass channel at the top of the game both detecting that the glass is there.

Maybe if they could come up with a way to do a tamper proof RFID tag on both sides of the glass so the tag would have to be within a certain proximity of the sensor, but won't work with the glass off the machine.

#3965 32 days ago
Quoted from PinballSTAR:

What was Stern's response ? Any different than JJP ? I'm seriously asking - since JJP seems to get the brunt of it here..

It is still possible to get a complete playfield swap if the damage is bad enough with Stern. 5 key people at Stern have to okay it, and you may have to wait a few months, but at least it is an option in some cases. Offering a bare playfield that people haven't received in half a year on a premium game from a company that bills themselves as such is more than a bit of a failure, IMO. Clearcoat falling off a month or two old game is not a customer problem, it is a JJP problem. The customer shouldn't be made to feel like shit for asking that they get what they paid a premium for in a timely manner.

#3975 32 days ago

This is a tough one...I don't really blame Goetz for trying to get a suitable remedy for being sold very expensive lemon. But I also respect Joe for coming on here and addressing the facts he has on his side and staying professional about it. Not many distributors out there will even answer the phone (per se) after the sale. At the end of the day, I think both parties want the same thing...and Jack is screwing his distributor AND his end customer.

#4000 32 days ago
Quoted from bigehrl:

Joe just proved to this community that this dude lied to everyone, from his distributor, to the manufacturer, to everyone on Pinside. Not to mention tried to work backroom shady deals to benefit himself, and screw the rest of the buyers. It's mind-blowing to me that anyone cold overlook that, or still continue to point any fingers at Joe or Jack. As far as I'm concerned, he has shown that he's an untrustworthy selfish snake, who deserves nothing. I don't care what version of what game you bought, You play by the same rules as the rest of us.
I bought my first game with Joe late last year. a MBR Standard Edition, or whatever they call the lowest model. Joe had no reason to do me any favors or trust me more than anyone else. When I told him I needed a week or two to move around some money and pay in full, he just sent me the game and told me to start operating it, so i can start getting some income from it. He had no reason to do that, other than to be helpful and make an impression. And he took a risk that I may keep the game and never pay him. Needless to say I made it a point to get him paid immediately following.. Integrity, Honor, and Trustworthiness are all that matters in business. Him and I showed each other that we possess these characteristics. I can say confidently that this Goetz character does not. Period.

I hope you have paid Joe's kindness forward to others. Unfortunately, you were a jackass to me on Facebook when I offered help in a thread you posted in one of the groups. We don't need that crap in this hobby.

#4050 31 days ago
Quoted from romulusx:

Stern has not giving out any populated playfields either and won't

Absolutely not true.

#4101 31 days ago

I think the best bet for people who have been burned by a pinball manufacturer is to file a complaint with their state attorney general/consumer protection agency/lemon law program. I don't see any other way you have any teeth in this situation. What is going on is wrong, and the manufacturers need to be placed back into reality.

#4211 30 days ago
Quoted from guitarded:

There's your problem. You are buying union built homes? Just asking for issues.

Every builder I know of in my area has foreman. None are union. The only difference between today and 25 years ago is there use to be one on each crew. The foreman usually is skilled in multiple facets of the job, not just framing or trim. The foreman would get a small bump in pay to run the site, and fill in where needed. Now a foreman runs multiple jobs and spends a good chunk of time driving between them and putting the fires out.

As for quality...you better be on site every day making sure your house is being built correctly, because quality is secondary any more.

#4302 29 days ago
Quoted from caz1844:

Hey Guys, I just pulled the trigger and got a Stern Jurassic pro and I'm hopeful not to have any playfield issues but if I do what should I be looking for during my first few weeks with game?
Excited to get the game as It looks really amazing!

Nice! Keep an eye on the post in front of the upper flipper. If yours has not been modified, you may want to loctite it. My neighbors would not stay tight at all, and it wound up stripping out entirely. He is also waiting on a populated swap to be delivered (due to other defects).

#4305 29 days ago
Quoted from caz1844:

Does the big washer indicate newer or older build date?

Newer build dates will have the artwork pulled back from the sling posts...you will see bare wood in the circles printed on the PF instead of art all the way through. The washers were applied to games the first couple weeks they made them, when the pooling was first reported on the first released games.

#4307 29 days ago
Quoted from caz1844:

Ok sounds good, I'll look for that. What does stern do if you start to see pooling on the posts or dimpling on the PF?

Depends on how bad it is. They will probably do nothing for pooling alone. Once the clear cracks, you may be able to get a new bare playfield. If the damage is extensive, you may be able to get a full PF swap if you meet their criteria, while standing on one foot, with your left eye closed, and flossing your teeth with the other foot. That is about how simple the latter process is It has been several months of waiting so far since the initial commitment from Stern.

#4497 23 days ago

You can't measure the divots with a standard micrometer unless you use a ball positioned over a divot and depth mic off two gauge blocks. I think you'll find the depth of the divot much smaller than you realize.

However, you could use a caliper to measure the diameter of the divot and calculate it's depth since we know the diameter of a pinball. Much easier.

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#4571 18 days ago
Quoted from Rager170:

Just wanted to chime in. I got my Wonka game over the weekend, build date of late October. No issues.
It was interesting to see a page JJP gives with machines saying how dimpling, ghosting and craze lines and other things of the play field are normal (no mention of pooling).

I guess when the majority of your machines have clearcoat defects, the defective ones become the norm, and perfect ones are abnormal. Congrats on your abnormal machine!

#4641 16 days ago

Playfield protectors just don't work for me. They play different, take the ball noise away, and get dirty too fast.

#4657 15 days ago
Quoted from Dr-pin:

How do you feel about modern days thick clear with synthetic/plastic varnish.
Is there less of an issue, when sprayed on?

I have had great experiences with modern 2 part auto clear coat finishes that I apply myself. And I'm not talking the rattle can stuff. I use $130/quart DuPont Chroma clear. Nice and hard in a couple days, doesn't chip, and plays to my liking.

#4703 12 days ago

So I have an old Gottlieb Victory with a similar playfield surface...kind of like a hardtop, but a bit thinner. The playfield has held up well the last 30 years, but I have not figured out how to polish the ball trails out of it. You can get the dirt off, but the surface isn't as shiny as where they balls travel (think lanes that are only as wide as the ball. I have used Novus 1, 2 and 3, and none of those seem to make any improvement on shine. I guess I will have to strip the whole thing down and try the "mylar reconditioning" method. On clearcoated playfields, the shine comes right back after a good cleaning. Even on a game that had the crap routed out of it (like early 2000's Sterns).

#4705 12 days ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Totally risky but I wonder it flame polishing like ramps would fix it?

I could try it sometime in a hidden area just to see. If I really really cared, it's like the cheapest playfield out there to buy NOS. But it would be good to figure out a way to deal with this issue now that hardtops are starting to become more popular.

1 week later
#4889 3 days ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

I don't know what a "bricks" is...and you only like the "progression" because you get see it...many machines on location don't get updated, meaning lots of players only get to play the early/poor code - and then decide "this machine sucks".

Don't worry...Iron Maiden was the second coming of Christ, until Duggie sold it.

#4909 2 days ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

They cut and insert 100% of their playfields at Stern.
Multiple vendors for art and clear. Not sure how many. Dwight confirmed this on his tour.
I don’t think there’s a post that takes more abuse than this one. Probably should’ve been one of those tnuts on the top side that is recessed like they used to do with sling posts.

They need to make a new 1-piece post that has an integrated flange on the bottom to distribute the force of the ball across a wider area on the playfield. Then attach it through the playfield with a nut and large diameter hardened washer on the bottom of the playfield. According to the quick sketch I made, you could do a 1/16"x 7/8" integrated base flange and still not hit the ball. The current washer looks to be about a 1/2" diameter? That would be about 70% more surface area to dissipate the force.

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#4912 2 days ago
Quoted from sohchx:

What exactly is the posts purpose? If it isn't needed I'd just remove it completely and put a mylar dot over it right out of the box.

Protects the upper flipper from very hard ball hits. The flipper would most likely break in short order if it took direct hits to the tip.

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