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(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

1 year ago



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#260 1 year ago
Quoted from PinJim:

If the clear was fully cured, it should be rigid? I would think that the lack of paint adhesion would cause the clear to crack, not buckle. But again, I’m not a master on clear. So I could be wrong.

Clear is mixed to give a desired amount of flex verse rigidity. Basically it can be a range. Harder, stiffer clear will crack and chip instead of give. You can see how it’s hard to satisfy all applications with one “right” mix.

The fact the material is not just compressing.... but wrinkling as Eric so correctly put it is interesting IMO and what keeps me wondering how the different layers in play

#480 1 year ago
Quoted from Yoko2una:

Stern - We are not aware of any PF clear issues... Now if you'll excuse us, before we put our heads in the sand, we have to go do a bunch of marketing blitzes, including uploading a SW The Pin video to Youtube which certainly shows the outstanding quality of our clear coat. Just please don't hit pause.
[quoted image]
[quoted image]

Yeah... and the reality that they've change their builds to put washers under slingshot star posts... something they never did before. And magically, they make that change now...? How convenient...

-1
#486 1 year ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

Correct me if I'm misremembering but at some point didn't Mirco (and CPR) both announce they were buying equipment that allowed them to print playfields at anytime thus eliminating the need for quantity runs?

You are referring to direct printed playfields vs using silkscreening. Thus, part of the ink discussion.. prep and adhesion questions.

Mirco has been direct printing for many years.. CPR is adding it to their options as it is faster, less error prone and less labor intensive.

#487 1 year ago
Quoted from Yoko2una:

Which is a change in BoM, so I'm sure they'll update their manuals, and put out a service bulletin for all games shipped previou... ah, who am I kidding.

Have you looked in a stern manual in the last few years? They don't even include lists of parts like ball guides, posts, plastics, or anything... mounting hardware is way down the list of 'shit you won't find in a stern manual'

Frankly issues like the manual (since about Metallica era) are so abysmal and will really hurt us going forward.. yet most collectors are oblivious to it

#620 1 year ago

wrinkling... not pooling... the topcoat isn't flowing downhill to your posts people :p

#626 1 year ago
Quoted from Rum-Z:

I think the right term is "blistering". Sounds nasty. That's because it is.

if it were caused by something expanding underneth... or filled with something.. I'd agree its better. But the failure is being instigated by pressure/movement on the top coat causing stretch, displacement and eventual tearing/chipping.

We can induce the same kinds of failures on the cabinet decals when you tug on it with bolts or over compress. That's the similarity I see..

#667 1 year ago
Quoted from Wmsfan:

Interestingly, there seem to be no issues mentioned in the shooter lane.
So the clear is adhering to bare wood ok. The balls getting kicked out repeatedly has not caused the clear to get 'pushed' or ''bunched up' to one side. There has been no mention of cracking or pooling or whatever you want to call it. It *appears* to be either artwork related- the art adhering to the wood, or the clear and artwork reacting to each other.

Or the difference between constant squeezing vs impact.

The clear has shown itself to be soft. that means impacts will be absorbed better.. and if the clear is more elastic, it will return to its shape. Where as a post is constantly squeezing and pushing the material.

#691 1 year ago
Quoted from mrgone:

I took these pics about 2 hours ago.
The jp has been on location for two days and was unboxed there.
So either the washers were put on at the location at unboxing or came from the factory.[quoted image][quoted image]

yes, this was previously noted that this is being done by stern on JP...

#770 1 year ago
Quoted from gumnut01:

That lone post is such a bad design. Could they have tied it to a plastic that can span across the lane on the right to another post? If it had rigidity from above it would not be so susceptible to chipping.
Edit: checked the playfield, they could create a clear plastic stretching to the other side of the flipper and to under the chopper. This would fix it. Even a third party could create a clear plastic shield to strengthen this post. Sorry if someone has already suggested this.

The problem has nothing to do with the top of the post... plastic isn’t going to support and combat the high intensity ball impacts. The problem is that it’s a skinny screw in a big hole for the t nut... because there is no room underneath for a typical post+nut.... where the post is normally friction fit to the hole as well as having a nylon nut.

#785 1 year ago
Quoted from John_I:

Basically the clear has not fully cured. It's soft

it is cured - it was sprayed many months ago. The formula they used is not resulting in a stiff finish resistant to compression like we are used to.

Cure is not the same thing as 'hard'. Cure means the chemical reaction has finished and the product is now stable.

#798 1 year ago
Quoted from John_I:

If it was fully cured it would have memory and spring back after you push it flat with the washer.

Elasticity is a separate property from hardness. You squeeze putty fine.. it doesn't mean it springs back because its soft.

Quoted from John_I:

Sure it is softer than we are used to but it is also not fully cured - at least in the spots where it is pooled and thicker. The areas on the SAME PLAYFIELD that are have thinner clear (not pooled) are hard enough that the clear is not dented when you remove the posts. The thicker areas are soft and dented

The clear wasn't thicker there - what you see now is material that has been displaced and wrinkling. That's why it's popping like a blister.. the material is separating from the substrate below.

Quoted from John_I:

Unless the formula of the clear somehow changed for two posts that are 4 inches apart, the problem definitely has something to do with curing of thicker material. Whether the chemical reaction is done or not, it is not cured...

No

#803 1 year ago
Quoted from Jason_Jehosaphat:

I worked in a body shop when I was younger. I mixed/sprayed my share of paints and clearcoats. At the time, adding the right amount of hardener was critical. When I first saw this soft clearcoat phenomenon on a Stern playfield (IMDN, spring, 2018), my first thought was: Gee, lots of material was laid down - perhaps *too* much - but this is so soft that it's pooling at pressure points and whoever is shooting these PF's at Stern needs to add the right amount of hardener!

Yup... and there are additives that can be added to the mix to adjust how flexible the finish is, gloss level, leveling, how it interacts with the substrate, etc. Dozens and dozens of variations vendors can dial their product in with.

It's possible they went with a new formula to make the clear more pliable or less likely to crack.. and ended up with this byproduct of lack of resistance to compression.

It's unlikely we'll ever hear the real root cause... just some promise of 'its fixed'

-1
#812 1 year ago
Quoted from John_I:

Not going to argue with you except to say you are wrong on all points. My points all came from the careful observation of the game sitting right in front of me.

Careful but still inaccurate.

#822 1 year ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

explain why it doesn't do it on bare wood then?
only where art is

Is there a post over bare wood on these impacted playfield s to compare to? If not... then you’re not comparing apples to apples

#827 1 year ago
Quoted from Jackalwere:

Munsters too. In this thread kiwipinhead showed rippling around posts in art areas, no rippling around sling posts where there's no art.

Link? I only see his posts with the wrinking around the metal posts.

#833 1 year ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Because the clearcoat is soft. Clearcoat should never be able to bunch in on the first place. It should be rock hard and not accept fingernail marking. The printing has absolutely nothing to do with this.

or maybe can it be a combination of both... ? The ink part being why the clear can be moved so easily... leading to the chipping.. after the soft clear has been shifted.

But yes, certainly to start with the clear shouldn't be displaced and pushed by simple compression from a post!

-2
#847 1 year ago
Quoted from Toads:

Down the track how would one do a restoration on one of these playfields.
Wouldn't it be a tough job sanding down soft clear to restore.
Are these playfields repairable?

Economically at scale? Unlikely. Just like building a house.. you need a steady base. If the base is easily compressed... the clear on top will fail when it can't keep up with the base moving.

So you'd try to remove as much of the factory clear as possible.. to make the 'mushy' layer as thin as possible.. thus reducing how much movement is possible. Getting that optimized is a finesse thing that is not perfect and is error prone depending on how aggressive you are. Pros like HEP do that when refinishing PFs, but it's alot of work and not perfect.

It's cheaper at scale to just make new ones and repopulate with the old hardware.

All of that is assuming the entire PF needs restoration. If we find out that only the contact spots are problematic... restoration could be to just fix the cosmetic issues that caused (repairing or replacing lost art/visuals) on a spot by spot basis and accepting the 'stabilized, better looking, but still flawed' PF.

11
#933 1 year ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

1K for say a Meteor and 1K also for a JJP POTC? Theres a huge difference there in the amount of work that you would have to do isn't there?

In a lot of ways the newer pfs can be easier. More modular, better harnesses, no need to rebuild mechs, drop targets, etc. there is more on modern games... but they are built different and if the mech holes are setup correctly it would go pretty quickly.

#965 1 year ago
Quoted from Jackalwere:

I agree, cleaning all the dirty parts, reflowing solder joints and soldering in new switches and coils is what takes me the longest. A new game would be a breeze by comparison.

Yeah, many assume 'more stuff == harder!' but it's more about the kind of work needed.

#1053 1 year ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

my engine has blown up in my car. BMW dropped a new engine off and I'm doing the swap myself.
Are you guys serious? A replacement playfield on its own is +nowhere+ NEAR an acceptable solution to this. Please please please for the love of god stop saying it is.
Cheers,
Neil.

yeah it's called 'parts' vs 'parts and labor'. Never had to pay for the technician to replace the part in your HVAC system? Or pay to replace a failed component in your car that failed under the parts warranty?

The significance here (not covered by your poor analogy) is the fact the product is faulty brand new... and not just something being replaced by a vendor.

#1068 1 year ago
Quoted from NPO:

I'd rather have no pinball machine then one falling apart with clear breaking, art chipping, decals peeling, ghosting inserts, etc. How did B/W do it for SO LONG without any issues?

Because the assertion they did not issues is false. Horrible registration.... cabinet inks that faded in short order... misassembled games... mechs that broke with normal usage... ghosting inserts... they were all things b/w went through too.

#1069 1 year ago
Quoted from DerGoetz:

People l love doing business with you, being the push over that you are obviously

I think many posters live in the fantasy world they dream up on the web.

#1224 1 year ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

The only problem is that there will be a whole lot less people that are into Elvira as a theme than there was for Batman 66. Elvira is a niche/cult classic whereas Batman 66 the show is true wide audience classic.
I have no doubt more pinball people will be interested in Elvira than BK SOR but how many more is the question. They are both essentially similar loosely licensed pinball themes.

You could say the same thing about Munsters... and TPF ran a similar (alas smaller) paid event too..

#1400 1 year ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

It is fascinating that nobody has been able to verify who makes the playfields for Stern yet their playfield clearcoat issues seem nearly identical to recent JJPs made by Mirco.

Remember that thought as dozens of pinsiders tour the stern factory next month

#1430 1 year ago
Quoted from luckymoey:

You'd think Stern would publish something about the change in the design around posts, and possibly the clear coat itself, but they are apparently still being very careful not to say or do anything that could increase their liability

You pretty much answered yourself If you publicly state you made this change for that matter... you pretty much make it easier for others to come back and say you owe that fix to me too because the original was defective.

#1555 1 year ago
Quoted from AUKraut:

I don't see how ANY playfield, no matter what it's painted with, is going to withstand that type of damage from a misinstalled or misdesigned ballguide. That damage those ballguides caused, and I agree its ugly, would happen on ANY playfield when a metal edge ball guide is torgued down that hard.

Ballguides making contact with the PF wearing the paint... yes... old as time.

Ballguides causing the clear-coat to wrinkle, and chip away... no, new to the clear issues of recent times. Old PFs would just wear at the spot and form a lip that could be chipped if you tried very hard. But adhesion made that very hard to break away much material. Here, this is nearly a cm worth of width away from the contact point. Not the old normal.

It's why the art change is only a quick and dirty attempt.. it doesn't address the problem anywhere else things are putting pressure on the topcoat.

#1580 1 year ago
Quoted from jfh:

What do those of you with experience with clear coat think about using a playfield protector? Forgetting about the benefits or wisdom of having one (or not), would/should using a protector prevent/stop/reduce playfield pooling or chipping?

not really.. the pf protectors don't go under hardware except in limited circumstances. they float on the PF and just sit 'around' everything

#1751 1 year ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

Please share your evidence that the issues are related to the amount of money spent.
Several have claimed this, none have shown evidence. Repeating it doesn't make it any more true but reading the same unsubstantiated claim a dozen times makes it more likely you'll believe it. Much of the social influencer/misinformation industry is based on it.

Don't stand in front of the blame train... it respects no logic

#1756 1 year ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

I believe they are claiming deductive reasoning.

Deduction leads to hypothesis... not assertions. It’s best to know what kind of ground one stands on.. less one puts all their credibility into the fire

15
#1825 1 year ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

What exactly has Stern done that could be seen as “sweeping this under the rug”?

How about making public statements saying its not a widespread issue... then turn around and quietly change your builds to include washers... then change the art on a game to avoid it.. all while not acknowledging the issue for what it is?

It's typical stern.... try to handle everything on a 'case by case basis' to minimize exposure and do everything possible to avoid publicizing the issue... including denial.

18
#1829 1 year ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

How widespread is it then, Flynn? What percentage of owners have reported issues to Stern? 1%? 5%? More? You tell me. Stern has made changes the fix the issue which is light chipping around a couple posts, that doesn’t affect gameplay.
I don’t want an imperfect playfield any more than anyone else, but from their view, I doubt this is an issue worthy of stopping the production lines.
Hopefully they’ll replace some of the playfields with the biggest issues, but from a legal standpoint, I doubt it’s in their best interest to make an announcement, drawing people’s attention to light pooling, for the most part -that doesn’t even affect gameplay.
Now, let’s agree that there are different ways they could have handled this, and that you would have liked something different. Fine.
But that’s not the same as stating that they’re sweeping the issue under the rug. In fact, they changed the process and that seems to have fixed the issue.
I would expect they’ll continue to deal with some owners on a case by case basis, as warranted -but I expect that they won’t replace playfields for every owner who found light pooling after reading Pinside and rushing down to inspect their machines.

You asked how they are sweeping it under the rug.. I answered that question. Dismissal... while quietly directly trying to cope with it to make it go away.

It's widespread enough that they invested time and resources to rework the game already in production. That should tell you all you need to know if it was materially significant or not.

We've seen this posture from Stern over and over and over. Be it splitting cabinets... ghosting inserts... failing cabinet decals... cratering PFs.. and now, wrinkling top coat. Stern bogs customers down by forcing claims through the distributors, while providing miserable support to the distributors for the issue, and using the pain and effort as a way to help minimize the number of claims. Then, hide resolutions behind 'case by case' basis policies that again drag customers through the mud of uncertain standards and no published guidelines to hold employees for accountability in decisions.

Deny, make it painful, and those that still manage to get through, scrutinize, and deal with the least number of failures as possible. It's the Stern way.. and always has been.

#1843 1 year ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Disagree. They may have noticed that it was 100% of playfields for a 1 week period and that they needed to fix it moving forward, but that 1 week worth of pins isn’t considered “widespread” in the grand scheme of things.
Something worthy of fixing does not indicate “widespread”.
Does it?

The problem has spanned multiple titles over titles shipped over multiple months. Hypotheticals that use ideas like 'playfields from one week' are disingenuous and dismissive. The problem clearly has been widespread... the affected percentage may be low vs the total.. but it's certainly not an isolated incident or momentary issue.

"worthy of fixing" is a balance of cost vs gain (or risk). Clearly Stern invested in the cost side of the equation to get JP fields reworked with new designs quickly... that alone projects what stern thought the other side of the equation meant.

#2105 1 year ago
Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:

Pay me travel money. I'll dress up and entertain the kids. They'll have a new vocabulary when I'm done with them too.

Visions of Bryan in Bad Santa....

#2107 1 year ago
Quoted from Oaken:

I’ve mentioned it before, but switching back to screen printing is probably not even possible at this point.
My impressions:
1) That tech is aging fast so when a screening machine breaks down (and it will) it’s hard to find parts.
2) Those that know how to do it are nearing retirement. Hard to find replacement technicians to run the presses since it really isn’t taught or pursued much any more.
3) throughput issues
So sure the new way is likely much cheaper, but they probably felt they needed to make the switch anyway given obsolescence of the old ways.
At least in my experience, my company pushed hard to replace working tech as soon as the vendor stopped supporting the tech. Freaked out the business people to have an unknown cost/liability just hanging out there.

Ehh... screen printing is alive and well in other industries. The beauty is there is no tech to support! The only thing to go “eol” is your screen material... and that is not happening now. It’s literally squeegees on a pivot arm.

And for volume... the industry makes far less playfield these days then in the past... so this isn’t a scale constraint.

Digital printing is desirable because it’s more efficient. Less labor, less time, less space, and less waste. Nothing to do with obsolescence.

#2182 1 year ago
Quoted from Wickerman2:

So yes on GOT.
Copied this from pricing thread...so, going back to GOT. Any earlier than that? Kiss? WWE? TWD? I haven’t heard any on those. So around 2014-2015 was there a change?

This train of thought doesn't work. This is not about when games were released... it's about when games were BUILT. Since Stern runs multiple games at the same time, and different batches of the same title... you have to look at what games were built in the affected time period... not when games were released.

#2290 1 year ago
Quoted from mbwalker:

Yep:[quoted image]

That is chipping from insert lift. Not even comparable.

#2473 1 year ago
Quoted from GamerRick:

Actually I have three coming next week. This makes my legal opinion more valid? The number of pins I own? Yeah right.

Don't worry about the sheep.... hearing what you want to hear is more critically valued on pinside than having to face realities. Hence the mob flocking to any prophet preaching what they want to hear.

Your comments have been much appreciated.

#2575 1 year ago

The Stern JP Pros at York today had the updated 'cut back' art style on the Playfields. So the change they made for the LEs they have now made for Pros as well.

3 weeks later
#2847 1 year ago
Quoted from sohchx:

What I've seen is that the threaded stud that the locknut threads onto at the playfield bottom is to short. Not sure why they wouldn't see this as a possible issue down the road at pre production Lol. Also, like machines of the past the post should have a washer under it on the topside, and a second washer on the bottom side before the lock nut as most or all of us already know.

The issue is this isn't just a threaded post. The issue is it's a threaded post that has the flipper plate obstructing it from below. So instead of your tight fit post with a big #8 nut and washer below... It was a post into a T-nut.... so it could be screwed in without removing the flipper base plate and would fit under it.

The T-nut does not provide the same lateral strength and resistance to becoming loose that the threaded stud w/nylon nut does.

Starting with the LEs, they changed it so the post is longer and has a nut on it. Unsure if it's still a t-nut or if they went to a fatter post stud. I haven't had to pull one part yet.

And if you want to copy over Mike's FB post.. just tag him guidotorpedo

#2852 1 year ago
Quoted from snaroff:

I'm told this has been fixed in more recent builds.

yes, as the posts above mention... the hardware was changed when they did the first run of LEs to have a longer stud and nut on it now.

32
#2866 1 year ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

glad to hear it got sorted out for them.

Maybe you should go back and update your wildly inaccurate stories with corrections.

1 month later
#3337 11 months ago
Quoted from No_Pickles:

I’m curious from a technical standpoint, why would the issues seem to be machine specific?
How is the manufacturing of JP different from SW?
You see and read about issues with one but not the other.

Its about the process and materials used at a point in time by a comapny... not so much about the title itself. The titles were just our way of referencing what was made during the time period because playfields are made in batches... and games are made in batches (during which the company may have a common qa standard across).

2 weeks later
#3721 10 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

What's even more depressing is when people dont know that playfields dumpling is part of pinball and they beat the subject into the ground

What is even more depressing is when I can sit the two latest Stern games side by side... see differences... and people still play dismissive as if everything is always the same. It's not.

#3740 10 months ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

You are saying the harder/aged wood is gone? Not saying your wrong but I would like to hear more about this. Obviously Spooky is making a tougher playfield compared to Stern so I wonder what the wood options are out there. And is there one better yet more expensive that could be chosen. I believe there has to be a way to get the hardness of the 90’s playfields.
You said you used Baltic Birch? Is that the best out there? Do you or anyone here know what was used in the 90’s wood wise?

Go back and start here for a perspective from CPR... as a voice of someone who tries hard in this area
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/cpr-playfield-preorders-are-meaningless/page/2#post-4863477

2 weeks later
#4115 10 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

Well, my WhiteWater has over 25 years of play on it now, and has nothing like the dimpling that I have seen some pictures of here. I guess my question should have been phrased as "Is the CGC playfield quality similar to the original B/W quality, or is it more like the current JJP/Stern quality?"

The MBR we have sitting right next to Stranger Things does not look as bad to the eye... but when you look closer it is quite extensively covered in divot marks. It's just alot less distracting to the eye on MB. I think the marks are less pronounced.. but haven't studied closely.

1 week later
#4464 10 months ago
Quoted from Vinnie:

Have you had this playfield for a while? The reason I ask is I noticed it doesn’t have the upgraded silver Mylar below the upper middle ramp. I’d contact stern and ask for it before that playfield gets installed.

It's a thin metal protector that is just stuck on with tape. It's not mylar It's effectively a big cliffy protector for the drop zone. You can add it at any time.

2 weeks later
#4828 9 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I like how the Dimpling Brigade had to invent a new term - Cratering - as they weren't having enough luck scaring people away from buying pinball machines. It's a good move as people are predisposed to liking dimples as they are cute, and craters bring to mind far more sinister things like the endless void of space and the horrifying effects of war.

Nope sorry Levi - the term has been used to describe the behavior for over three years

Quoted from flynnibus:

The problem is people pick the argument they want to make vs addressing the points made.
It's not 'no dimples vs dimples'. Wood dents.. everyone knows this. Yes, the more dents you have, the less obvious one dent is. So the point of 'all playfields dimple' is true.. but irrelevant to the points raised.
The point of concern is when you see the SEVERITY of these dents and their rate of appearance. When a game 2 weeks old looks like it has more ball play than games 4-5 years old.. that is not the same as things have been.
But no amount of 'leveling out' from more hits will bring height BACK up. So when you have crater impacts (not simple dents).. that spot will be lower.. period. We aren't looking at 20 year old games that have had their PF surface smashed down uniformly to these degrees.

Quoted from flynnibus:

But the ruling council has spoken.. there is nothing to see here.. nothing has changed. All our games have grown out of their crater and potato chip clear phases right under our noses and we never noticed it or knew it was happening.

The last one was dripping with sarcasm if you don't click the link

#4914 9 months ago
Quoted from koops:

Ready for some “extreme dimpling?”
Played this guy today. Ball kept getting stuck and when I checked I initially though it was the ramp flap. It wasn’t even touching it rather resting in the valley.
RIP clear coat.
[quoted image][quoted image]

Incorrect. That is mylar put back there that wasn't installed well so is pulling up.

2 weeks later
#5023 8 months ago
Quoted from JodyG:

I love how everyone thinks the Haggis solution is some pinball altering invention already. Not one of their machines is out in the real world getting beat on day in and day out. A lot of time needs to pass to see how well those machines hold up before we decide that the Haggis playfield is the benchmark of quality. The plastic is held on by tape at the moment, for crying out loud. Just because it does not dimple does not mean the finish is going to stay bright and shiny. One operator who leaves a ball in too long is going to scratch the hell out of that plastic permanently. Plastic is much softer than clear coat, and you are going to play hell buffing out ball tracks from orbits and whatnot.

They switched to holding it down with hardware... but now their design requires everything to be through hole. No screwing into the top of the PF. That will be a challenge in its own -- finding space for T-nut everything or washers, etc.

But agree - what we have right now is a good sounding concept - actually seeing it completed, VETTED, and sustainability/suitability for other games is needed before crowning any concept the king.

7 months later
#6910 32 days ago
Quoted from fooflighter:

I'm not an engineer, but made this in 5 minutes in photoshop..why can't they develop a flange that sits under the playfield, secured from below and the post is actually part of the flange that goes through the post hole with a threaded center to screw down the plastics to (They could even polish or coat it to look pretty). It doesn't seem like rocket science and you'd never have a sling post (or anything that takes a pounding) ever touch the surface of the playfield again.
[quoted image]

Biggest problem with this design... space.

If you made every post a big 1" square... you'd have all kinds of conflicts of mounting spots on the bottom of the PF.

#6926 32 days ago
Quoted from russdx:

Multiple posts could use same bracket maybe?

So instead of custom lightboards all over... now we have large custom one piece brackets covering large areas of the PF? ?

#6927 32 days ago
Quoted from fooflighter:

Maybe for games currently produced, but factor that design into the process going forward and build around it

Actually fitting the mechs around each other is one of the most difficult portions of PF design... and what every pro laughs at when people armchair design Playfields from just the top. "why don't you just move that over...". They know each change can have a cascade of effects underneath.

Quoted from fooflighter:

I don't know the clearance of the JJP GnR but just looking under my Stern JP, there would be room (see below)..just incorporate the room going forward and problem solved

So you did it for one post... now how about all the others?

It's a novel idea - just saying it's not a magic bullet. It complicates one of the more constrained portions of mechanical design in the games.

15
#6963 32 days ago

This thread is like freaking ground hog day

2 weeks later
#7177 15 days ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

Its not a fix for the playfield issues but see how Williams (CGC) have the rails mounted off the playfield.
[quoted image]

Similar - but not really part of the solution. I think that was just more about letting light through and materials. They don't do this all the way to the ends, etc.

#7217 13 days ago
Quoted from fooflighter:

I'm always curious of this statement, but how does that matter in this situation. We've seen playfield look perfect out of the box, then for some reason at play 250 (hypothetical) things fall apart. How does buying used grant some sort of immunity or insurance against this sudden playfield destuction phenomena?

For the exact reason you outlined in your hypothetical.

These issues appear within a short amount of time. They don't take years to reveal themselves... so buying second hand you have the opportunity to see a game that has already had miles put on it for when you'd expect the issues in question to have appeared if they are going to at all.

#7219 13 days ago
Quoted from fooflighter:

Fair enough, so I assume some people will wait years to buy the GnR LE..I'm patient but not that patient

We both just said it won't take years to reveal itself... yet you come back with this?

This is really no different with any NIB purchase... there is no real value besides 'being first' and JJP trying to enforce non-transferable warranties. NIB is a safety blanket to some who are not comfortable with their games.. but for most others its just a luxury.

#7222 13 days ago
Quoted from fooflighter:

I guess my thought wasn't communicated correctly, too much coffee. My point was that some people will wait years to see if all the issues have worked out regardless, others will trust that if they haven't seen anything in the first couple months used with no problems they will be good to go, me included for new pins based on online feedback but I'm admittedly rolling the dice on GnR (hoping for good rollout reports from here on in) . I just don't like the used idea though as I said before, I've had bad luck with other people hand-me-downs, irrespective of timelines

The best thing about the explosion of the hobby with new buyers is the number of basically brand new games on the second hand market. People are not making bigger collections, they are buying and selling to buy the next game. What used to be like finding a 4 leaf clover is now the expected norm. People measure usage in hundreds of games, not 10k+, etc... Most flaws with a title or example will be flushed out within the first few months of a game being on the market. Or those with weak code, etc.. you can see where the game goes.. (like Batman66).

And add-in that manufacturers re-run games more commonly now... there is even less FOMO.

For those who know what they are capable of... it's easy to sit back and just pick the winners.. instead of playing the NIB lottery. Here's looking at you Munsters owners!

#7258 7 days ago
Quoted from RipleYYY:

"anything touching the playfield"
what about the ball ?

The ball doesn't dig into one spot :p

#7289 4 days ago
Quoted from snaroff:

The ball guide/chipping issue looks like it may be a build problem...not simply a PF issue. If these guides aren't installed properly (or too tight), it is likely to result in damage. With low wage workers being asked to crank these games out, I've seen many more build issues.

Nah... that is still a design/materials issue that you create this dynamic. The rail as spec’d is laying on the PF... and the guide can deflect and move.

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