I don't think that will be an issue. When your saving serious cash you expect wear and tear. The people posting pins for sale for what they paid including the tax are going to get beat up and rightfully so. It seriously sucks for NIB buyers though I would be pissed. These issues on a used pin would mean nothing to me.

Yeah I don't expect used items to be in new condition, I also don't buy collector quality pins. If I wanted that level of quality I would buy NIB. When it comes to price and inspection, as a seller or a buyer there is an offer and the seller accepts it or he doesn't. I don't do the whole nickel and dime over every little thing.

Considering computers don't have disk drives anymore what would be the point?

This is pretty much my stance as well, especially for a game that has a lot of plays. I guess it all depends on if you willing and capable of doing the swap. I think this well help hold the value. There is going to be no more good deals for routed games, a routed game with a spare playfield is going to cost you. If your just a player and not capable or willing to work on a pin you will be at a disadvantage when it comes to buying. Sellers will have no issue as there are plenty of guys in the hobby more than happy to do the swap.

There are plenty of people that are and you only need one buyer. These are the very latest released pins, even in a couple years you are going to have a line up of buyers. If I'm the only guy in the line not trying to get $1000 off because it needs a swap, lucky me and lucky seller. I think people underestimate how many people in pinball spend as much time working on them as playing them.

P.S. Whats a swap going to take 20-30 hours, shit I put more than that into a video game and at the end I just feel like a slob that just spend 30 hours sitting on my ass. I would much rather work on a pin and have a dime piece at the end.

Ha ha, I'm a software engineer in video games. I have a wife and kids that where in sports that required a lot of travel. I didn't say I did 20-30 hours in like a week. Everybody has crazy time demands, that is just the way life is. All I'm saying is there are lots of people out there that will be willing to pay for these pins and I don't think anyone is going to take a financial loss. You have a massive pin collection I suspect you can find a few hours for pinball.

This is very simple mathematics, labour is a major expense especially in America. It would double the cost.

Its not a restore, 50 hours seems very excessive to me, its still just a pinball machine and its not like there should be a lot of problems or adjustments required. I wonder how many hours it takes a company to assemble a machine.

I completely agree in a perfect world every person affected would get a complete replacement at no cost. The reality is that would be crushing to the industry. A free replacement playfield should allow everyone to enjoy their machine and help maintain value. I could live with the replacement. I never said everyone should just accept it and shut up. All I said was I think people should be fine as far as value if they sold. If this isn’t acceptable to you by all means sue them or try and negotiate a solution your happy with.

I never told anyone what they should do or how they should feel. Does anyone actually read what people post or is it always if your not with us your against us. I just posted saying I thought having the extra playfield is going to increase the value and I was the guy that wasn’t going to be asking for a discount as a buyer. I just tried to be positive and tell people affected not to worry there are other pinsiders that a swap isn’t a big deal willing to buy.

It really goes to show how much bigger in the industry Stern is than JJP. The JJP threads on the issue have been around for a while but it seemed like a fairly small amount of people being affected. At the time I thought I'm surprised Pinside is not going mental at this, a couple weeks later and issues start to appear on Sterns. Now its feels like this has spread to every topic and every machine in the last year is impacted. When it was JJP it was minor with Stern its the biggest issue since ghosting on Ghostbusters.

Visually I’m not a big fan of the how that looks on the LE but it’s better than pooling and cracking. It doesn’t seem like a great fix though, what about the rest of the playfield long term? I would be a lot more confident if the fixed why the art was lifting not just remove art in trouble spots.

People cheat at everything, no idea why people think it would matter in Pinball. Just give me a friends list, DNF, basic ranking and your good to go. Online play in Pinball would be a piece of cake you wouldn’t even need to be in sync, shit you wouldn’t even need a simultaneous connection. The other person doesn’t even need to be online and you wouldn’t even know.

That sucks so bad. I know I would be literally hoping it starts to chip and fall apart sooner rather than later. What is Stern thinking, I can’t imagine a worse customer experience.

It depends on the level of dimpling, my original AC/DC Pro has dimpling that is the slightest bit of texture in the right light. A used pin like that would not concern me in the slightest. I have seen Sterns that are a lumpy mushy mess and I wouldn't even make an offer on a pin like that. Just walk away and keep looking, if you get a bad one that is going to seriously hurt resale.

As I was scrolling through the thread I could not figure that out, admittedly I didn't read the post. Was just thinking why the hell am I looking at picture after picture of the back, LOL.

If you watch to the end you can see that they have some issues knocking the camera over, so that is probably why they cut. I see no reason why that material would damage from that hit. I would have been very surprised if it was damaged. The thickness they are using seems like complete overkill.

I don't know the exact material or specs these guys are using but there is nothing hard to believe about this. There are plenty of materials available that would be virtually indestructible to a pinball. It's not in any way difficult to make a durable playfield you just have to want to do it. All his videos are highly produced using several takes. Some of you guys are skeptical that water is wet.

It's probably a bit of dust or dirt off the hammer. These type of material can take 100 MPH slaphots and stop bullets but you guys are going full tinfoil hat because they hit it with a hammer. The whole thing was just a little silly marketing no one is going take a hammer to a playfield.

I think Stern sales are probably pretty flat. The die hards are still buying that being said are the increasing 10% per year because that is kinda the minimum for a company to not be considered at risk. Everything I have seen from Stern reeks of instability and fear, they are clearly rushing and mishandling their clientele.

I don't think its just the spin from Pinside but I completely accept this place amplifies everything. I think everyone would agree Stranger Things was rushed and the only reason I can see to rush it and revault Ironman was the pins on the line were not selling and they did not have the reserve to delay. I don't think they have a lot of buffer to carry them if they drop a few duds or things get lean.

Settle down there fella your going to give yourself a stroke. No one said its going to be over this week, I just said they are rushing and that is a sign of instability. You don't need to go DEFCON 1 over benign comments.

To be fair that is being blasted with light to make the dimples visible. They are virtually invisible outside the reflection. I agree all playfields dimple but they are not all the same. There is variation and I have seen new Sterns that look brutal from any angle in any light. Just on route in a bar players position and they are a mess.

I think it's time for a new normal, I understand this is expected for the product they are selling. That is exactly why I am not buying. It's just Stern being Stern they won't do anything until they are on the verge of collapse. The least they could do is offer some kind of factory built in protector for an additional cost. Maybe acknowledge that they want to improve, tell us they are investigating new materials, technology, something, anything. It's just a complete crap shoot. I don't believe the issue is behind them at all, a couple machines down the line they are going to try some other cost reduction and start all over again.

Particle board, WTF! I get the whole cost reduction thing but there has to be limits. How long you think it takes to bust a post loose from particle board? This is getting to Ikea level shit. At lease Ikea stuff looks good and everyone knows you put it together where you need and don't move it.

I honestly can not understand why Stern haven't tried this. From what I have seen those hard tops look really good. I know it's early and we don't know how they will last over the years but are people confident the current playfilds are going to last. I think the cost savings would be reason enough for Stern to jump all over it. I guess the purist will complain but it's not like they are happy now.

Sadly I am not at all surprised,they are clearly not allowing these to cure before starting to assemble them. I wish I could believe this was a one off, hope they make it right for the person.

That you're literally blind to Stern's playfield issues is a surprise to no one in this thread.

Just listened to Cary podcast so thought I would take a look at this "grainy art" in the TMNT thread. Grainy is a huge understatement some of those playfields look like shit, and cleary Stern is all out of fucks to give, zero standards or quality control.

I think its just the term grain that is causing confusion. All digital art will have some pixelization if you look close enough that is normal. The complete de-saturation of the colors is the issue, the art is completely washed out. I'm a afraid they may have done this on purpose in some attempt to thin out the art so the clear might bond better.

Sure was nice while it lasted, if only there was a way to make that permanent...

Seems like they are still treating the symptoms of the shitty clear and not fixing the actual issue with the clear. This whole the clear falls off when anything touches it, lets just avoid anything touching it, is not ideal.

How long is Stern going to be able to get away with sending out unpopulated playfields? Does anyone know how many machines they have had to do this for, it feels like all of the last several have had one issue or another. There bottom line has to be taking a hit and they still appear to have done nothing to improve quality control.

I'm honestly shocked there is not a class action.

No I don't personally. I'm surprised there isn't a law firm actively soliciting clients, this is exactly the type of case class action firms focus on. I'm not arguing that plenty of people are happy with the replacement and Stern is clearly getting away with it. Legally Stern is in very precarious position and could easily be held liable for the cost involved in replacing a playfield. I guess Stern is not a big enough fish to attract the sharks but they can only push their luck so far.

This is in the running for the weakest retort I have ever seen posted on the internet. That is really something. CrazyLevi has been using the same retort towards me for several years and this is worse than that. Touché

No idea what that is but no way that playfield should have gone in an LE.

I'm not saying its a weak spot, defect or going to cause some issue. LE's are supposed to be top tier and that simple does not look good. Just to maintain the quality of the brand they should have given that one away in a contest as wall art. It would have been worth it just so that image did not appear in this thread.

The issue is Stern has set a standard that they really don't care. They sent some of the worst cases an unpopulated playfield, which is not a solution. At this point they will probably send you a coupon for $50 off your next NIB and people will be happy with it. It's hard to muster up any sympathy at this point. People are gambling and some of them are losing.

The solution to the problem is not removing art or trying to build a pinball machine that nothing touches the playfield. There is some chemical issue here with adhesion that they need to sort out. They tried to avoid the issue and half ass a brain dead solution. Why are people following them down this path of stupidity.

I personally think its nonsense, it's 2020 I am sure there are plenty of products out there that are safe and meet the required specs. They may not land in the price point pinball is willing to spend. It could be you have to actually be organized and plan proper cure times. They may have to make some change in the process that would cost them short term. The bottom line is people are still buying so they have no incentive to change.

It was a valiant effort but when people try to use capitalisms and political propaganda to win pinball arguments, the bar of stupid is just too low, sometimes you just have to walk away.

The last thing Stern should be doing is screwing around with this pointless solution of avoiding anything touching the playfield. The need to figure out how to make a surface look good that can that can meet the specifications required.

That is the whole point. Clearly we can see that objects touching the playfield are causing issues. The fact that Stern even considered just removing the art anywhere an object touches as a solution and disregarding the ball is an epic level of stupid. It's too early to tell but I will not be surprised if over time, high traffic, high dimpled areas with art start chipping and lifting. Shooter lanes already are chipping and there is no art there. Maybe it is just cure time and it can cure enough before the ball makes an impact but it's still incredible short sighted.

Every lottery has a winner otherwise no one would play.

This is obviously cost cutting and the home edition pin. That being said if Stern was actually invested in improvement there are things you can do with MDF. Years ago I made a MAME cabinet out of MDF and wanted to paint it with automotive paint. I don't know much about the process but they sprayed it with a resin to seal and harden the MDF before they painted it. It has the smooth lustrous shine of a Hot Rod and is as hard as rock. I would love a playfield like it. A cheap piece of MDF to save a couple of dollars no thanks.

If you take my anecdotal evidence, every piece of MDF furniture I have ever witnessed is unmovable. You don't even have to take it apart just the act of trying to carry it from one location to another with result in it self destructing. Earlier I was thinking about dimpling, when it comes to screwing in post and object then hitting them with the ball, yeah no thanks these are going to get destroyed.

Not sure if this is sarcasm or a joke I'm not getting. The idea that only those privileged enough to be able to be able to throw thousands around like its nothing should be allowed to play pinball is a whole new level of arrogance and elitism. Do you turn your nose to the peasants that drop money on location. The fucking snobbery here can be nauseating.

I know he has really helped me identify I need some time to self reflect and deal with some insecurity.

Sadly the thread tends to come to life whenever a new pin drops. Good luck to all the Led Zeppelin buyers.

I don't understand how they can not "make good" on this. I wouldn't even consider this warranty it is simple defective out of the box. Did you buy this as a demo or floor model in as is condition or something? I'm not American but I can't imagine how they would have a leg to stand on legally.

I think its fair that consumer expectations have changed at a much faster rate than pinball manufacturing. Some companies appear to be trying to catch up and be responsive others not so much.

If the restaurant tells you to just pay the bill and like it, would you go around telling people the waitress was horrible or the restaurant. I completely understand why people that have been screwed want to let others know. I can't for the life of me figure out why the fanboys take such offense and constantly have to pretend there is no issue. It's not some mission or crusade to try and help other people out and let them know the risk, that is just being a decent dude.

That video gets posted a lot and I can accept the guy has some conflict with Stern. That being said he does seem to make some reasonable points. I haven’t seen any counter argument or breakdown. Does it exists somewhere? All I have seen is that he is a liar, full of shit and bitter. I’m sure the truth is in the middle somewhere. It’s not like he is the only guy saying this stuff. You hear about power supply, flipper fade and node board issues all over the site.

Yeah I don't care if it's Spike 1, 2 Sam or System 11 for that matter. I didn't realize anyone cared or thought made any difference, I personally feel its all just markting anyway. Every iteration of a system or engine is always mostly the old one with a little bit of new. Obviously the majority of people are not going to have issues. There are some issues in production and quality and the appears to makes some reasonable points. I don't understand this motivation of he said Spike is bad everything he says is nonsense or my pin was good so everything Stern makes must be good. There is middle ground here and it would be nice to actually have a reasonable discussion. Everyone has there own level of acceptable risk. I know I hate dealing with a problem with anything, so I will just pass even for very low risk. Some people are totally fine with issues and problems and are comfortable that it will get sorted out. It's totally ok to be in either camp and we don't have to constantly try to convince the other they are wrong. I like to see the problems people have and know how it gets handled so I can assess the risk for myself. I would appreciate if someone could show me the specs on the power supply and what the real numbers are. Would be nice to know how much he is exaggerating. It's way more helpful than endless posting the video and endless saying he is a liar.

Thanks I really appreciate this as the guy is clearly massively exaggerating. I was curious what the power supply was rated for and what the pin is pulling. I can't imagine a Stern every pulling anywhere close to a 500 watts. Just out of curiosity I checked the JJP GnR manual and it lists a 150 watt power supply that seems under powered. Is that actually accurate?

I'm with you on this one, I would have no interest in a machine with a bad playfield even with a replacement (unless it was a classic). It would be a hard pass, there will always be another modern pin for sale. I am always curious though what it's actually like in the real market. The internet puts such a strange slant on everything. I can't tell if everyone things its totally normal and they wouldn't mind at all or you are never going to sell one of these machine without taking a sever beating on the price. People freak out for putting a color LED in a machine and piss and moan about all the work it will be to swap out. A playfield though thats a piece of cake.

It's so weird how some machines do this, a little dimpling is normal, this is not dimpling. There was a Star Wars on route near me that was like this and in person it just looked awful, it was also very visible from any angle. Take a thousand years to smooth that out and if it does smooth out the inserts are all going to end up raised. These playfields should have been replaced.

Dude, this is so sad, your going full Simp for Stern, no one wants to read this.

Dude you’re the one in here being a dick to other people in the hobby. Acting like they should be so thankful. That they are inferior because they won’t do the swap themselves. That their playfields are not really defective because if they were they would man up and do the swap. That it’s somehow not right to sell on. It’s nauseating, good thing there is a solution.

The whole I don't like your opinion but I have no defense so lets just go with you are not part of the group so you don't count.

No one is saying it is a permanent thing. People are only stopping because the quality control is shit and the solution is garbage. If everyone stopped NIB you bet your ass would sort that out real quick. Then everyone could go right back to buying.

When they stop screwing over the people that have shitty ones. It looks like they may have sorted out the quality control issues. Now how about all those people that got fucked. Why you guys feel the need to try and defend this is so weird.

This is such a bullshit response. No one is saying every game has to be perfect out of the box. There is a big different from doing some adjustments or having to fix or replace a broken/flawed mech and having to swap the entire fucking playfield yourself. This whole thing that if your unhappy your just a Karen and might as well leave the hobby is so tired and weak as an argument. Completely false equivalency.

Damn those dimples are not even round, it's so soft it looks like the ball is making a dent then pushing the clear around. How bad does dimpling have to be before we can just call them divots? That clear is fucked, did they forget the hardener.

I don’t see the issue here. They offered you your money back. Are you upset because this was a version you couldn’t get a replacement for? There is something very weird about your whole story and how your presenting it. This thread is bad enough with the endless fanboys denying real issues. It seems like you just trying to troll them and muddy the waters. That same picture is everywhere and I have no idea what your motivation or goal is.

Ok it would have been a hell of a lot easier to understand if you started with this. I understand it's not an ideal solution for you but I think it's acceptable.

As a collector I understand your point of view and it does suck that you did not get what you paid for. It was just confusing in the context of this thread it's so hard to understand what level of screwed people are getting. I thought this whole no more playfields meant people were getting royally screwed and told to take a hike with no compensation. There is a big difference between that and no playfield but here is your money back. Yes you got screwed and it sucks I can understand your anger. I'm not saying anyone intentionally is misleading anyone but I thought you got screwed way worse than you did. How do we keep track of who is getting their money back, getting a blank playfield, getting a populated, and if people are getting royally fucked and getting nothing?

P.S. I'm not asking you personally just Pinside in general.

There was some bad Star Wars early on. I know for me that was the first pin that took dimpling to a whole new level. There was one on route and it was just a mushy mess.

It is very obvious there is an adhesion problem with the ink. I just assume most people say clear coat to keep it simple. As soon as they started removing the ink in problem areas it pretty much proved it. Such a terrible solution though, text book case of treating the symptom instead of the actual cause.

The whole washer thing just seems like complete insanity. We are seeing this manifest itself months later anywhere that something touches the playfield where there is art. A washer just spreads that contact out over more surface area. It seems like it just slows down or delays the issue. I would not be surprised that if in 10 years all the areas with high ball contact just start letting go. Some of these playfields are going to look like those cars (was it Chevy?) that got a bad batch of primer and all of them the paint just fell off after a few years.

I do know Vid is kidding around.

This is strange thing to listen too. He talks a lot intelligent things about wood, steal, clearcoat, polycarbonate and physics. He then turns around and acts like adjusting the height or thickness of a target or pop bumper is insurmountable. I was not a fan of his bad faith cargument that you shouldn't drive a collectable car. He even tried to act like a chipping playfield was completely fine so long as the ball doesn't roll over it. Also I am not a fan of the whole back in the day these were commercial and no one cared, well people care today. In the end the sales are clearly healthy so they have no reason to change.

I do like that he spoke on the topic, he is pretty clear that this is the product they are selling. At this price point its not a product for me, but business is good. They seem to be being more upfront and I think that is a good thing.

I think dimpling is normal 99% of the time. I do believe that Stern had a problem with a small number of playfields. They didn't dimple, they were a lumpy mushy mess. The problem was it let the cat out of the bag and people started getting worried and it just blew completely out of proportion. Today dimpling seems solved and on that front everything is good. I think Stern likes to use it as a deflection tactic, they love to make like there was never a problem. I did get a good chuckle at the whole they would never let a warped playfield out the door. Their quality control is just too solid to let that happen. I just wish they would say were working on quality control, trying to pretend there is not a problem just seems like they have no intention of improving. Of all the stuff we have seen get past quality control saying something could never get through was a little much.

I thought I had heard the buy back is not really happening. Did people not post that it was offered but then when it comes down to it all they get is silence for months.

So all that talk and you're a wait and see buyer and did not buy NIB. Apparently you ordered a GNR I guess it would be best if you get a shitty one. Saves another customer getting a bad one and you don't mind. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you and hope you can take one for JJP.

I was just hoping you could do your part to keep the production line moving. Also I think your sarcasm/mocking detector needs a tune up. You have a very low bar to start throwing things like rotten, hateful and "clients (people) like you" around. I was just poking a little fun at you online. I am sensing you are not a lot of fun at parties. I take it you like to dish it out but not one that enjoys the taste themselves.

Dude you acted like a bad playfield was no big deal and people need to just relax. Then the idea that I was going to use, the force, karma or maybe my super power to influence some bad mojo to get you a bad playfield and you lost your shit and threw a hissy. I think maybe a bad playfield is bothering you more than you are preaching. I promise I will not influence the universe and increase the chance you get a bad one.

Is the process complete have you returned the machine and gotten the funds?

I still think the core of the problem is chemical and related to the adhesion of the ink to wood or primer. That being said, a post that sloppy is certainly not helpful and is going to contribute to the problem.

It's not from a ball, to me it looks like they saw a run or flaw in the clear in didn't do a very good job when they tried to sand/buff it out. It sucks and hopefully you have good luck from Stern or your Distributer. I would try them first but I suspect you will probably end up doing it yourself or finding someone to polish it out.