Sounds like its time for a new distributor!

I've been wondering if all the playfield issues could be attributed to an industry-wide change in clear-coating / paint chemicals? I know in a lot of other industries, such as automobiles and toys, they've had to change the chemicals they use in paints and sealers due to worker safety and environmental concerns. And in a lot of cases these newer, safer compounds take longer to dry or aren't as damage resistant.

Its one of the only explanations that I can think of to explain why a pinball machine from 1991 can have almost no playfield wear or damage, and a machine from 2019 that's only six months old can all ready have chipping or other signs of damage.

"dingle dimple"

Yeah, its surprising how fast the ball can get moving on my 1980 Black Knight. Those slings move it fast, and sometimes it positively rockets down from the upper playfield.

EDIT: And that's with the stock 25v flipper mechs!

Right, and so am I. The ball moves VERY fast around the upper playfield. And I get plenty of glass slams, and the occasional airball quite often. I don't pretend to say that the BK's speed is typical of machines of the era. But it can be very fast-playing, as fast or faster than plenty of newer Sterns I've played.

I seem to recall Charlie saying that Spooky has to pay something like $100 per playfield for the high-quality wood they use now, while companies like Stern only have to pay $10 per playfield for theirs. (due to the softer and lower-quality wood that they use)

Of course this leads to the question, why doesn't Stern just raise prices by another $100 and get rock-solid playfields? One easy explanation could be, that it's simply not how they think. Big companies would rather use the cheaper wood (since it's "good enough"), raise prices again anyway, and then pocket the difference. Another explanation could be that maybe Stern can't get the quantities of higher-quality playfield-wood that an operation like theirs would need. Since they're producing thousands where others are making hundreds.

I don't know, I'm not an expert on any of this stuff.

Yeah, me too!

In all seriousness, I think someone re-posted an old message from Charlie where he talks about that stuff. It might have even been earlier in this thread actually. But its a lot of pages to go through!

Maybe this is the RAZA secret sauce that's gonna make their playfields so much stronger.

I always imagine that Vid1900 actually looks like the "Tall Man" in real life. Makes me chuckle. Speaking of Vid and his absence, I wonder if Vid is actually in the other dimension right now, lording over a tiny undead-workforce as we speak. Its as good an explanation as any for his disappearance.

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Could the title of the thread be changed to include "--excluding dimpling." Every Tom, Dick, and Harry who's got dimpling comes on here and posts about it. Then a bunch of people reply how its "fine" or "normal." And then a bunch more come on and say that its not, and it goes in circles. The point of this thread was to discuss things like pooling, chipping, ghosted inserts, how the companies are handling things, whether there's been a fix, ect. Dimpling is a worthy topic in its own right, but dimpling talk should have its own dedicated thread. Cuz its clogging up this one big time.

Please name and shame the distro. I don't want to do business with any distributor that doesn't help the customer after the sale, and neither should anyone else. Of course all sales are final, barring a major or game-breaking defect, but good distributors will go out of their way to help make things right. As best they can anyway. There are too many good distros out there to do business with a bad one.

Please no conspiracy theories. This isn't the moon landing! Also, Jeff Teolis visited Haggis recently and tried the hammer test himself; and he said there were no dents from the hammering. So I'm not worried.

With respect, you realize that people don't buy new pins because their old ones stop working, don't you? Pinball Machines are not like toasters or light bulbs. People buy new pins because they're either bored of their current pins (Home Use), or their current pins are slowing in quarter-drop (Location Use).

Another big reason people buy NIB, is because people know that they can recoup a substantial amount of the machine's cost back on re-sale. If pinball machines started wearing out after only a few years, then you'd see a lot less NIB sales, because the long-term value wouldn't be there anymore.

A big reason this thread exists is to establish whether or not there are still issues with playfield quality from the various manufacturers, and if there are issues, then to establish how widespread. Iceman coming online and telling us his pins are in good shape is exactly what this thread is for. We want to hear from everyone. For example, what if 99% of machines were fine, but only the 1% with problems posted here, then it would make the playfield problems seem much more widespread then they actually were.

We need status updates from the community, both good and bad, in order to be able to establish any facts with a degree of accuracy.

What am I looking at here? Care to provide any commentary? Looks decent to me, especially for the amount of plays. When was this JP made? Or are there two games here? I don't get it.

Whoa! You wouldn't even see old lacquered playfields wear to the wood that quick. That's crazy and sad!

Question 1: Is the dimpling visible with the glass on from the playing position?

Question 2: Is the flow of the ball being disrupted by pf pitting?

If the answer is "no" to both of those questions, then no biggie from my perspective.

Well, I wasn't asking for a physics lesson, I was really asking whether or not you "felt" like the ball speed or play was any different, or that the path of the ball was being affected. You've indicated that you haven't noticed anything, so that's good.

However, you can apparently see dimpling from a playing position. For me, even though the dimples can be seen from certain angles, and in certain light, it doesn't bother me. But I can respect that it does bother a lot of other people. As far as I'm concerned, that's just how pinball is at this point. Even Kaneda had to admit that all playfields dimple, and to a point you just have to accept it and move on. Otherwise you'll drive yourself insane with OCD.

So is this normal? I don't know. I would say that it's the new normal, and has been so for a while now. Dimples don't bother me, it's insert problems, pooling, chipping, and premature wear through the clear and paint that concerns me.

Well, I believe that you can change the settings so that he drops the ball onto on the ramps instead. Or even doesn't swing at all I think. Could be wrong, I'm not an owner, but I'm pretty sure there's an adjustment that does that.

I see the scratches on the bottom, but other than that what's wrong with the pf? I'm too much of a newb to see what's wrong with the topside, it looks fine to me.

Apparently, they're using reinforced leg/corner brackets now. Here's a pic of my SW Comic Pro. So cab splitting SHOULD be a thing of the past. Also, what's weird is that my Whirlwind had exactly the same tiny leg-bolt brackets that Stern was using. Guess the Sys11 cabinets were sturdier, so they could handle the tiny brackets.

Also, does shooter lane wear really matter? I mean the shooter lane is isolated from the rest of playfield, so it's not like it can spread to where it matters. And I never look at the shooter lane anyway, so I don't get the obsession with it. But that's just me I guess.

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Not trying to be a jerk or anything here, but honestly you can't even really see the paint flaw in that top picture, and it's barely noticeable in that second picture, and that's waaaaay zoomed in. Even the top picture is a closer view than you would have from the playing position. I know you want perfection, but honestly it's really not bad at all in my opinion and anyone that wouldn't want to buy the game because of that is far too anal-retentive in my opinion.

But then again, I'm a used buyer and I don't really mind cosmetic issues. I had a Mousin' Around that played awesome, but looked like crap and I still loved it. The only reason I really care about cosmetic issues is because I know so many other buyers seem too, and so it can make it harder on the resale. But luckily, there seem to be plenty of buyers like me out there too.

But hey, it takes all kinds to make a world, so if it bothers you then do what you think is right. I just personally think it's not too big a deal compared to other issues that you could have.

Can someone highlight or circle where the damage is on the pictures and re-post? I'm straining and I can't find it. Not trolling, I just genuinely can't see anything wrong in the pictures. Certainly not compared to some of the pooling I've seen in other photos. What am I looking for here?

Well, they definitely seem to have some chipping issues. As was posted somewhere earlier in the thread.

I mean honestly that "ribbing" will 100% not be visible from a playing/standing position. It's only visible in a certain light from a certain angle. I wouldn't say that it's inherently wrong or a defect. It's just the way Stern has their clear coats done now. People just haven't become accustomed to it.

I sometimes think people are getting a bit too into perfection with these toys. But if it bothers someone, well I guess that's Stern's problem then.

I'm not gonna go point by point with this guy, but he makes A LOT of bold and unsubstantiated claims. For instance, he claims that JJP games have FAR fewer issues than Stern games. I'd love to see the evidence/data on that one! In fact, I've heard of nearly every Stern competitor's games having issues. He also seems to greatly exaggerate the extent of node board failures on Sterns. Do they happen? Yes, of course, but I wouldn't say they are common. Haven't had any node board issues with any Sterns I've owned. He says that used Stern Spike games eventually become a very expensive burden for their owners. Hmm, then why do prices on used Stern Spike games keep going up? Surely if they were expensive to maintain nightmares, their prices would be going down?

Also, this guy says that he thinks Stern games will eventually become so unreliable and expensive to repair that they'll only be worth pennies on the dollar! Ha, I'll buy all the Sterns I can at those prices!

Regardless, in spite of so many people complaining about expensive node boards or poor quality pfs, it doesn't matter. Stern is making money hand over fist. They've got thousands more orders than they can even fill. And they sell more and more pins each year. So for all the talk, and in some cases legitimate complaints, Stern isn't going to alter the way they do things until it affects their bottom line, and I don't see that happening anytime soon. Things would have to get very bad indeed before people would actually stop buying Stern games en masse.

I think that you're confusing car roles. In this scenario your car dealer isn't Stern. Stern would be a big car manf. like Ford or Chevy. Your distro would be the equivalent of a car dealer. So your distro is the one who should be treating you like a king.

No, I don't think I am missing anything! My point was that no one at Ford HQ will know your name or give a crap about you, even if you buy 10 Ford F150s in 10 years. However, if you bought them all from the same dealer, then that dealer would certainly know your name and want to give you the best service possible when you walk onto the lot.

As far as repairs go, that's a whole different kettle of fish. Because while you can take your car to any dealer to get repaired, once your car is out of warranty, you're paying that dealer cash for the repairs, just like you would for a pinball repair. Also, every car dealer has a full-service mechanics shop, while not every pinball distro is trained or kitted out to do full-time repair work. So the real issues are that Stern's warranty period is too short, and that not every distro is able and willing to do lots of repair work.

Another thing to consider is that almost every family needs a car to survive, and you've got lots of safety issues when it comes to cars, so there are a lot of govt. regulations on the automobile industry. Whereas pinball is a niche toy hobby.

But I do agree that it would be great if Stern's warranty period lasted longer. And yeah, people who have good distro's close to them are especially lucky.

No, what's really sad is that people like you think that every pinball owner should care as much about minor pf quality issues as you. No offense. Plenty of owners just play the damn game, and don't give a crap about barely perceptible issues that you can only spot if you hunch down in just the right way, in just the right light.

There are legitimate issues to be concerned about, but the number of times I've seen owners in this thread ring their hands at some tiny imperfection that you can barely see, looking at a photo with a 20x zoom, from some crazy angle that you'd never be in while playing, is ridiculous. It's like sometimes people are doing everything they can to try and make a flaw appear. If you have to have the perfect light and perfect angle to spot the flaw, then it's not really a big deal. IMO.

Lot's of us don't care about tiny imperfections, and so we are happy to buy new/modern Sterns. I obviously buy new Stern's with the understanding that there could be minor cosmetic issues. So far I haven't had any, but if I did, I wouldn't whine about it, since I knew what I was getting into. People are lining up to buy more Stern's because they make some amazing and fun games. Ala' Jurassic Park, ala' Elvira, ect. ect.

I follow this thread because occasionally there have been big issues that are worth knowing about. Such as chunks of the pf and clear ripping out, or inserts crazing and things like that. I don't follow it to worry about barely/non-visible issues. But hey, to each their own, and if you wanna get out the magnifying glass and play "hunt-for-the-flaw" then knock yourself out. Just don't expect all of us to join in the insanity. Again, no offense.

Yeah, the constant price increases from Stern are getting old. But the sad thing is, no can beat Stern on price. No one. They're the cheapest mass-market manufacturer by a lot. So until someone can put out an equivalent product at a cheaper price, Stern can keep raising prices all they want.

I wish it wasn't the case, but it is.

Yeah, if the Distro and Stern won't help you. Then name and shame them, and make some noise. Reach out to Jack Danger, reach out to other big names in the hobby and get some attention. Reach out to George Gomez if you can, or at least try to get his contact info from someone like Franchii. Because a pf that's warped so bad it ruins the gameplay is beyond unacceptable. I hate when people whine and moan over the littlest pf defects, but when something this serious really is wrong, then that's another story entirely. If they gave Jack Danger a game with a pf like that to stream, he'd get a replacement from them asap. Maybe post in his thread too, get some more eyes.

Don't settle on this, if the game is basically ruined you NEED to be made whole. Don't settle and don't give up. Do a chargeback if you have to, do whatever it takes. This is the kind of problem that this thread was made for. And you're lucky because you're actually still in the warranty period too. Not that it should matter with a case like this, but it does. This is waaay worse than pooling or chipping by a long shot.

The owner all ready contacted Stern and his Distro quietly behind the scenes, and was completely snubbed. Sometimes making noise is the only way to get businesses to actually do the right thing. How many times have you seen companies only do the right thing once something starts rolling on social media.

That's the point isn't it, the owner's PF is so warped that it's affecting the ball physics. It's causing abnormal drains. That doesn't sound very fun at all. He bought the game for fun, not for the headache. So it sounds like your on his side then.

I'll say this, it looks like swapping the pf on a LZ should be easier than doing a swap on a lot of other games.

Above Elvira?! No way. That's VERY high praise.

And yet, they can't make these "garbage" products fast enough. People are waiting months to get their hands on "garbage." How do you explain that?

Ah, and that's the missing piece that the guys who are happy to get an unpopped pf, and happy to do their own swaps are forgetting! There's no guarantee that the replacement pf you get will be any better than the bad one you got out of the box. Imagine doing all the work for the swap, and then having the new pf have the same problems. Would be a nightmare!

Now maybe there are ways to check your replacement pf, and ways to mitigate cc issues, but still...

Still having issues with guide rails digging into the pf, and now they're having problems with pf warping / bowing. And that's a far more serious problem.

Well, a warped pf can literally make a game unplayable if it's bad enough. So it's a big deal to the owner. And while cc/pf cosmetic issues don't ruin the game, they certainly aren't ideal.

It's hard to gauge how many pins coming out of Stern have these issues, but they are still happening. So the QC/pf issues aren't solved.

In fact, I'd say I've probably heard of more issues since LZ was released than in the previous 6 months. So if anything, the problems are getting worse/more frequent.

Yeah, so far I've been hearing that Stern will send a populated replacement if your pf is actually bowed/warped. They seem to be taking that a lot more seriously than the chipping stuff.

Well, JJP is majority owned by a billionaire. So even if JJP lost a class-action suit, there couldn't possibly be any judgment that would force the company to close it's doors. Unless the Abesses wanted it to. Which would be on them, not on the plaintiffs.

Well. I haven't heard of any issues with Stern's lately. Some warped pfs in the last LZ run, and some ball guides digging into pfs from being pushed down too tight. But nothing like the cc or insert ssues we saw in the past.

Have you checked the balls? One or more of them may be scratched or marked-up. That would could certainly mark up the pf like you've described. Although, you would tend to see damage over most of the high-traffic ball areas.

Just one possibility.

Right, but have you physically looked over the balls? Unfortunately, new pinballs are not always perfect.

Sometimes Stern or other companies pinballs will be rough or rusted straight out of the box. So again, worth checking.

Haha!

I guess I'm crazy, but literally none of the pictures of the inserts that have been posted would really bother me at all. I'm just not that anal, and don't care about minor ghosting issues like that.

Totally understand that some do care, but not me.

Now, chunks coming off of the pf is another matter...