Quoted from libtech:

Did you see post 727, looks gross!

Quoted from Who-Dey:

Went to a barcade yesterday and here's what i saw.
JP-pooling and chipping
BK3-pooling
IMDN-pooling and a piece of clearcoat flaking off in the middle of the playfield
Deadpool- didnt look but im sure it probably had issues as well.
At my house:
Munsters-pooling
IMDN-pooling and chipping after 600 plays
For anyone who thinks this isn't a big problem, you better think again because its HUGE I guarantee it!

Quoted from Who-Dey:

Haven't heard back yet.

Quoted from TomGWI:

I like my machines to be defect free out of the box. Not to look like this.
I agree with Underlord.[quoted image][quoted image]

Quoted from TomGWI:

My distributor sent pictures to Stern. Still waiting for an answer.
Still waiting for an answer on my WONKA as well but that has been over a month.
Surprisingly my Black Knight Premium looks perfect.

Quoted from Aquapin:

So the machine I set up tonight had very minor rippling/pooling. Removed the ugly metal washers from under the sling posts and found this (see left pic). I applied the heat gun on low for 10-15 seconds and it leveled into a nice smooth finish. This is great if it was permanent, but if a little heat can level it, imagine what a pinball can will do to it long term.[quoted image]

Quoted from mslow:

My distributor wrote me asking for final payment on my JP2 LE. They should be shipping soon.
Do you feel the clear problems have been solved? Would you hold off and wait till this problem is 100% figured out with the chance of missing out on an LE?

Quoted from NPO:

That's exactly what it is., and their silence speaks volumes on the veracity of that claim.

Well, yeah. They're prolly going "awww fuck guys. How are we going to get over THIS hump? They're not letting this one go over at Pinside....! We might have to actually address it."

Quoted from EricHadley:

Um, not exactly. They buy them in batches. If they don’t sell they don’t buy more batches. For sure hurts Stern.

Quoted from Vinnie:

My Iron Maiden did this on the exact same post in around 600 plays. I’m waiting on Stern’s response...[quoted image]

Quoted from Chambahz:

I think we all can appreciate your stance, especially if the chipping has occurred in so many areas.
I would hope that Stern does take care of you. I would almost guarantee though that it won’t happen quickly.

Quoted from Chambahz:

Again, absolutely ridiculous.
A car that’s defective is massively different from a pinball machine.
(I don’t want to give it away completely, but think of what happens to the user when these two very different machines fail to operate as intended)
The other thing to consider is this: Pinsiders appear to consider pooling on par with global warming. Operators likely do not share the same concern. So Stern announcing a recall and drawing attention to something that’s perhaps not even important, is not only unnecessary, it’s throwing money down the drain. That money is recouped with higher prices.
If that’s what you want, you’re on your own.

Quoted from GamerRick:

So the Stern release photographs of Elvira clearly show artwork underneath both slings. I’m curious if those photos were taken before they discovered the problem and made the changes to the JP LE playfiields[quoted image]

Quoted from yancy:

Where? So far I've only heard good things about LE playfields. Premiums aren't shipping yet. But if there are still issues, I want to see them before my premium ships so I can cancel, if need be.

Quoted from o-din:

[quoted image]

Quoted from Chambahz:

You ought to relax, seriously.
That playfield is messed up for sure, and I posted support in the LE thread that he should escalate to Stern and expect them to back him up, 100% (just so you know where I'm coming from) -but as I posted there, that looks like a screw ripped through the wet clear and artwork while in the factory.
Owner confirmed that the peeled paint is covered in clear, so unless you know better, I'd say it's not as you described, "paint just flaking off".
I think it's really important to figure out what caused that "tear" in the artwork. If you are somehow correct, then yes, all bets are off and maybe it's best for everyone to wait this out.
But if you're all fired up and yelling "fire!, fire!" when it's just a one-off caused by a sharp screw in the apron that tore through the clear and art at installation, then that's a one-off, and likely not an issue that should frighten potential buyers.
I posted in the other thread that if anyone with a JPLE wants to remove the apron, to see if a screw is located anywhere near there, that might support my theory.
I think the benefit of a place like Pinside is when you have owners helping other owners, not raising pitchforks without much information.
Any other opinions on the cause of that "tear" is welcome, of course!

Quoted from Talon2000:

Well having actually cleared over a digital print. I looks like the printing did not soak into, or adhere to the wood, it has no bit into the substrate at all. The clear coat then softened the art. Then something gouged the art, causing it to peel with the clear clean off the wood. If the art was applied correctly to the wood, time given before clear, and time between clear coats, this would have most likely been a scratch, and not a peel. Point being ink should not peel off the wood leaving bare wood. There's not even an ink stain on that wood.
Basically it should not be tearing and pulling away from the wood, it should just be a scratch. Poor prep, and incompatible products.

Quoted from Mike_J:

You bought half a machine?

Quoted from hawkmoon77:

Quick Update:
Stern has been fast to respond to my emails. They said they sent my pictures to quality control and offered to send me a bottle of clear touch-up to mitigate the paint peeling issue.

Quoted from Rum-Z:

Well, there's skateboards.

Quoted from hawkmoon77:

I know this isn't a paint related issue, but with regard to playfield quality...Along with peeled paint and missing parts that were never installed on the playfield, I just discovered what appears to be the wrong colored insert installed on my LE playfield. All RESCUE targets are supposed to be red/orange. Somehow, a clear one got into my playfield. Do they make orange bulbs?[quoted image]

Quoted from GorillaBiscuits:

No worries, they’ll take care of you especially since it’s a really new game. It does take time. Just continue to be patient and polite in the meantime, which you’re totally being... even in your posts here.
Personally, I’m livid that my 9k LE is having these issues and I’m not getting much a response... but your game is substantially newer and has a multitude of issues, so I’m confident Stern will take care of you sooner than later don’t sweat it!

Quoted from GorillaBiscuits:

No worries, they’ll take care of you especially since it’s a really new game. It does take time. Just continue to be patient and polite in the meantime, which you’re totally being... even in your posts here.
Personally, I’m livid that my 9k LE is having these issues and I’m not getting much a response... but your game is substantially newer and has a multitude of issues, so I’m confident Stern will take care of you sooner than later don’t sweat it!

Quoted from mnpinball:

Correct, but the cabinets themselves are better construction, better wood material and thicker plywood. It’s worth noting these cabinets started “after” Deadpool.

Quoted from Who-Dey:

Ha...you meant to say has anyone even got a phone call back from Stern yet right?

Quoted from TomGWI:

I was told I would be sent an unpopulated playfield Nov 1st for my Jurassic Park that had wear around the post direct from the factory. Still nothing from Stern.
I’m moving on from Stern and not dealing with this shit any longer. They clearly don’t want my business Or want to correct the situation and I’m sick of contacting my distributor to try and make it right. Keep your fucking playfield Stern!

Quoted from johnny77:

Stern dont care nor do distribuor. My GB pre as a issues with playfield chipping. Talked to stern and dis. Its been a year and nothing. Trash company and crooked dis.

Quoted from Mike_J:

But will it crater?

Quoted from TomGWI:

As some of you know when I got my Jurassic Park from Stern the playfield had pooling. This is what it looks like now in the home environment.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Quoted from WillSmuz8999:

Trying to set the record straight...
Mirco does not make Stern playfields. Mirco makes for his own repro business and JJP.
Stern makes their boards in house now, and installs the inserts, and sands the boards. I am not sure if they perform the seal coat, but I think they send them to an automotive coater in Crystal Lake, IL, who seals them, then they are sent to Rockford Silk Screen Process for digital printing,and then to the same clearcoater. Not sure, if they still use them for playfields too, but Stern once used The Fun Company in New Lisbon, WI. I know they were, maybe still are, making the wood cabinets for Stern, and possibly playfields.
American Pinball once used Mirco for the beginning of Houdini, but switched to Bader in Scales Mound, IL and then they are sent to Signcraft Screenprint in Galena, IL.
Charlie at Spooky once worked for Signcraft. Charlie gained knowledge in digitally printing playfields, etc... and has a JV with Tim Lutz at Lutz Mfg, in Benton, Wi, which is where he gets his playfields.
That is all!

Quoted from Darkwing:

Good call Julian, as much as I don’t think Mirco has much credibility left, it’s not rocket appliances to figure out that doesn’t work.

Quoted from snaroff:

Seems like you have it all figured out!
How do you "judge" JP2 against all the games you've owned/played?
From my perspective, gameplay needs to be factored into "quality". A perfectly built game (with no dimples and perfect clear isn't very exciting if the gameplay is BORING. I've owned a HEP CCC and PMD TOTAN and sold them because the gameplay was BORING.
I can't stop playing JP2 and think it's one of the best shooting games of all time. The shots available to the right upper flipper are just awesome.
Since Stern currently produces the most games (by far), it's not surprising they produce some duds. As they know very well, it takes a spectrum of games to satisfy a pretty diverse customer base. Casual players don't like the same games as fanatics that play every day.

Quoted from Who-Dey:

He gave everyone a personal call that had a chipping playfield and buttered them up and made them gush all over themselves and forget about their shitty quality playfield. The correct thing to do would have been to call people and say I'm sorry that this happened and we will be sending you a populated playfield for your game.
I guess an unpopulated playfield is better than nothing but I personally find it unacceptable on any game that has a defect from the factory and totally unacceptable for a person that has a brand new game with a bad playfield.

Quoted from Lermods:

This isn't entirely true. I’d suggest attending a show and having a conversation with stern staff. I did. They won’t tell you specifics because they are trade secrets, but they did more than just thin the clear. I want to see issues with playfields that were produced post September. So far, none have been shown. If there is evidence of chipping/pooling/excessive dimpling in these newer playfields, we should continue to be vocal. No doubt that playfields in 2019 and prior had issues, but it seems both jjp and stern may have now addressed these issues.

Quoted from Lermods:

They won’t reveal what they did or how they analyzed the problems as that info would benefit their competitors, and I respect that. I was told the problems were identified and fixed and that my Elvira would not have any issues. So far, that has been true. I can only speak from my experience, whether people to choose to believe me is up to them. I understand and appreciate the skepticism.

This thread exists because there have been significant issues with chipping and pooling at both jjp and stern. People are reporting no issues with newer wonkas and I’m not sure there is evidence newer production stern games have issues. I don’t think anyone in the Elvira thread has reported any issues and most seem happy with their playfields.

Quoted from donkadelic:

Stranger Things about 2 days old. Tons of dimpling the surface appears to be like putty. Particularly pronounced in a game with a ramp shot that airballs all over the playfield. It's hard to tell from the picture but the dimpling is all over the playfield, 100s of dimples. Probably every single time the ball leaves the playfield.
Side note had to tilt in 2 out of 6 games. Ball gets stuck? behind the gorgon or something... Also ball flying everywhere off ramps which wobble a little too much. Art package is boring, game looks and feels super cheap. On the positive side the game layout is pretty fun and super fast. Code needs a ton of work though (as usual).
But the fact that people are still buying this company's products and/or saying this level of dimpling is acceptable or somehow "evens out" is idiotic.
[quoted image]

Quoted from NoQuarters:

Issue all games playfields as production whitewoods. No art, no clear.
Maybe send a pack of magic markers along so folks can put their own art on the playfield if they like. Markers could come with a Premium model .

Quoted from cooked71:

Thought so. Still doesn’t make your situation acceptable. Good luck - hope they sort it out for you as they should.

Quoted from Bublehead:

Well, the shit storm I stirred up has no logical basis for an argument. HUO, means, as I used it, it went into my home, for my use only. Now why the arguments have no merit or logical basis is this one fact only- I am not selling this machine, and more specifically, I am not selling this machine to any of you. That said means that I am not representing this machine as HUO to anyone. I have never sold any of my pinball machines. Don’t plan on ever selling this one either. So if I say I bought it after it was used in a tournament (specifically the Chicago Expo 2007 Flip Out Tournament) where it was used in the final match of that tournament, where the top two contestants went head to head on a Family Guy machine... Andy Rosa and Greg Davis... yeah, I bought that one, from Mike Pacak, two minutes after the tournament ended, where it went into my rental truck and I brought it home to Frankfort Ky, where I was living at the time. Since then it has 2822 plays on it, of which 2567 of them I (and my house guests) have put on it in 12 years. It will remain in my home for my use only till they haul me out boots up. Here is a picture of the tournament lineup, care of PinGame Journal.[quoted image]

Quoted from mbeardsley:

I really was just curious about how hard it is to do a playfield swap on a JJP machine.
You do bring up an interesting point though...if the pooling and such does not affect gameplay, and no one is going to do the swap, why was there so many complaints about needing a new playfield? People need something to fill their closets with or something?

Quoted from chuckwurt:

Well then us STH LE owners hit the jackpot!

Quoted from chuckwurt:

What’s that? Never heard of it.

Quoted from pinballaddicted:

That is the issue with Stern. They do not want to stand behind their product, and are pushing all their distros to knock back warranty claims.
No more Playfield Russian Roulette for us. Inspection on every NIB before we buy. This is a condition of sale for us.

Quoted from DakotaMike:

What am I looking at here? Care to provide any commentary? Looks decent to me, especially for the amount of plays. When was this JP made? Or are there two games here? I don't get it.

Quoted from 85vett:

Guess it is time for me to eat some crow. I've been a long time supporter of Stern and their games. Local's call me a Stern snob as that is basically all I buy now with the exception of an EM here or there. I've bought 8 NIB (9 with the one I've paid for but haven't received since Jan) and I think I've finally hit my limit as well. My DeadPool has been a nightmare from the start. I've had to replace so much stuff on my 240 games played machine it's ridiculous. Most recent was the CPU. I have 3 spots on my game that were defective that have worn to the wood in one spot already and the other two have worn past the clear and started to get to the art already. My distributor (who's been great) has helped every step of the way but the replacement PF I just got.... I just can't spend the time to put it in as I planned. I've never seen a brand new PF where all of the inserts are ABOVE the rest of the PF. That's frustrating enough minus the grain making it look like the clear was brushed on with a 99 cent Wal-Mart paint brush. I just can't support them anymore which is hard for me to say since there are games I still want to buy
Couple of pics with my crappy camera phone. You don't need the light to see the issues in person but to get my phone to focus I had to get some glare on them. Any ambient light (like the GI of a pinball machine) brings these issue out very clearly. I know there are worst things but this feels silly to me for a brand new PF. I can't help but think that after a couple thousand games those inserts will start to look like the fish of an old bad Fishtales PF.
First picture - shows the grain and clear issues. Also shows the insert which looks like the clear just settled. If that was the issue I could live with it (not be happy but live with it), but it's actually above the PF.
Second picture - Looking at DeadPool's eyes, hopefully this shows how all the inserts look in the game and how they are raised.
This PF was stamped as December 19 and also has a CV stamp on it. Guessing the CV is whom either QCed it or made it.[quoted image][quoted image]

Quoted from DerGoetz:

I 100% agree with him, would look best with lights off

Quoted from JonCrox:

post #5372
"Their standard wood for Stern is a good one side panel with 3 layers of white ash and a 0.048" face veneers. After many consultations with their tech guys we came up with what I know is the best playfield wood in the world. We use the same basic setup as Stern, 3 layers of white ash cores then we use 4 layers of maritime hard maple BUT we increased the thickness of the two face veneers by 64% to get a nominal face thickness of 0.075". These huge and thick ONE piece veneers are crazy expensive and we always get this top grade veneer on BOTH sides of your PF. This alone added $12 to the cost of each panel vs just using a second grade veneer on the bottom like Stern does."

Quoted from EricHadley:

You are being way to picky, that’s common on almost any game from any manufacture from any era.

Quoted from NoQuarters:

Really ? Didn't know Covid can be transmitted to others over the telephone line ! That's a new one. Maybe if you call them back with a mask on they will answer.

Quoted from o-din:

No, this is.
[quoted image]

Quoted from o-din:

I guess I don't really have much more constructive to add to this thread.
[quoted image][quoted image]

Quoted from dudah:

I thought Stern still uses Churchill Cabinet Company (parent company of Chicago Gaming Co)

Quoted from nicoy3k:

I don’t consider ”raised“ inserts an issue. They have no impact on play feel or durability. It’s your money though so if you want to worry about that instead of enjoying your game... you’re absolutely allowed to do that.

Quoted from seenev:

When I unboxed my game and saw this written on the cover of the manual, I knew they had cheaped out since my last game. I think I have reasonable expectations but the quality now is just unacceptable. You're not even gambling hoping to get a good game. They're all cheap now.
[quoted image]

Quoted from JY64:

So tell me just what has been cut from there games in the last ten years

Quoted from JY64:

With all the talk on wood these are a 2014 ST and a SW can you see any difference and yes I found there was one quite a surprise I must say
[quoted image][quoted image]

Quoted from jawjaw:

Most of this is just preferences or speculation. Quality of some of the materials may be in question but it's not like things are just flat out missing. It would be great if every game was loaded with drops, spinners, diverters, magnets, mirrored backglass, and complex toys but there are limits to everything. Plus, Stern has made improvements in art, lighting, display/animation, and game code. Ten years ago Stern was making IM, Avatar, and BBH. I would definitely say things are improving overall.

Quoted from GravitaR:

Speaking of playfield defects. Pal of mine unboxed AIQ LE this weekend and found what appears to be a burn mark or a wood defect near the apron in the shooter lane that made it past Stern's QA.
[quoted image]
[quoted image]

Quoted from koops:

Its worrying that along that entire process all those different people said "yep, good enough".

Quoted from CLEllison:

Jeebus cripes. Look, I don't have an engineering degree but I'm over flowing with common sense which tends to be more useful than an engineering degree.
They can't get this fixed apparently so use the same setup as Stern did all those many years ago. Seriously this is just ludicrous they aren't smart enough to realize they already have a better band aid. Counter sunk t-nut and skinny post.
https://www.ipdb.org/images/4858/image-2.jpg

Quoted from JY64:

LOL that is not planking. Planking is mostly seen on older games and is when over time the grain will lift up through the paint. The image you show the wood grain has not lifted you can call it what you will but it is not planking

Quoted from Kiwipinhead:

Stern need to change the Grit on their drum sanding machine from 50 to 120.

Quoted from Doctor6:

So here is my issue. You almost cannot tell the gap because in pics it is hard to see where the playfield touches the straight edge (and that IS a perfectly straight edge). But look at the far left ball guide. It is like 1/5 of an inch dipping! And it keeps dipping more as the side goes on. The balls can literally not be saved from outlane drains! If it wasn't infuriating it would almost be funny.
Unlike many here, I'd be thrilled as hell if Stern could replace this with a playfield. I'd gladly populate it myself, as it would be far better than this!
[quoted image]

Quoted from Doctor6:

Wonderful. So back to the question at hand. Do I wait to play it?

Quoted from Jvspin:

Give it another 18 months and I bet that playfield looks smooth as glass after those dimples flatten out.

Quoted from littlecammi:

Some of you suggest that if enough Pinsiders stop buying NIB games completely until playfield issues are eliminated, then JJP and Stern will have to address the root cause of the problem to restore those lost sales.
Back in the '90s, when new games were sold mostly to operators, B/W would reduce pricing to close out small quantities of remaining NIB pins once they had moved the line on to the next new title. Operators caught on to this practice and quite a few started holding off buying new titles and waited for the close out pricing. As a result all of a sudden B/W had 1000 unsold NIB pins out of a run of 4000. Their answer was to reduce upcoming runs to 3000 and say "screw 'em" to ops that held off and missed out.
Although a much larger percentage of NIB pins are now sold to homeowners, Pinsiders are just a subset of that group. If a Pinside NIB boycott did affect sales to a noticeable amount, I suspect Stern would just compensate by reducing the inital run size of the next new titles. And if the smaller lot size cost them more for the parts, then Stern would just raise the list price of the games to cover the parts increases. And with fewer NIB sales there would be less used of those titles for sale HUO down the road.

Quoted from NoQuarters:

cpr9999 How about you start buying more NIB again and I'll cut back. That should even the universe out and then your basement might start looking more like mine and mine more like yours.
Or maybe you could buy a few games from me .... You need more games in your basement so you can host our friends when things improve out there. I should probably have a few less and and buy a couch to sit on downstairs. Or if you have too many couches I can buy one of those from you. Not sure about a NIB couch. But then again reluctant on HUO couches unless you know the seller or it's a relative.

Quoted from Pin_Fandango:

lol - please stop... get an iron man new in box, play 1800 balls the report back if you see dimples or not. Then report back in 3000 games.

Quoted from seenev:

I finally got a replacement jurassic Park playfield from Stern. Not sure when/if I'll ever get around to swapping it at this point as it came like 5 months later than it was supposed to, but at least the quality of the replacement looks better as far as I can tell. I really wish they'd look at the playfields before installing them... I wonder if some of them get damaged when building the machines. There's one or two spots on my original playfield that have little gouges that make me think a screwdriver or something nicked it or some tool was dropped. I doubt they're going to take it apart when they're halfway done if something like that happens.

Quoted from newpinbin:

So you have never had any issues with any NIB machine?

Quoted from Yelobird:

I tend to disagree. Any issues I have had to deal with on new and even old games my distributor has professionally and to my liking dealt with. Granted I don't call because a ball is stuck or I see a dimple in my playfield but in general they have always been a valuable support for me.

Quoted from Yelobird:

Proudly! They Earned it! #Kingpingames or if he is out #Flipnoutpinball. Both Christopher and Zach have always been honest, fair, and supportive. Don't need to be a power buyer with either just give them the opportunity to Earn your business and they do so with no concern. Easy as it gets.

Quoted from Colehvac1:

My chipping spread past the factory sent black rubber washers, so your logic is good till it goes past, then what?

Quoted from flynnibus:

Posts are never snug in the hole where T-Nuts are used (the T-nut barrel actually sits in the hole)
Posts that are snug should be posts that are only held on with a nylon nut.
I haven't looked at which posts these are in our game... but even if they are using a t-nut post vs a post w/nut - it's not 'why' the PFs are chipping - other playfields that have mechs or posts move don't chip like this. They gouge or wear. Which is why we get that halo of missing paint under posts in nearly every game of the last decades after enough play/age.
Even posts that are press fit and take direct flipper shots usually end up bending or working their way loose. And again on those PFs we don't get the topcoat pulling and chipping.

Quoted from vid1900:

All of us guys who have been servicing pinball machines for 40 plus years know that those metal mini posts are always loose on games.
Every time you go out to a new clients place of business it is guaranteed those posts will be loose.
Often times the posts are really loose, because someone has put a #6 post into a #8 hole
So you always have to loc-tite them and make sure that the correct post is installed
Never in the tens of thousands of games that I have serviced, have I ever seen 25 mm of paint chip away around a loose post.
The loose post always wears a tiny ring the exact diameter of the post. It does not lift all the surrounding ink and clear off, lol
Doesn't matter if it's an OEM or a CPR playfield, the results are the same.
These games have had millions of balls run over them, and the metal posts are inches away from the flippers:
[quoted image][quoted image]
Crap playfields can't even survive a few thousand balls, let alone millions

Quoted from greatwichjohn:

13+ years of always doing uv inkjet printing for restorations (early days), & new playfields the last 8 years. Never had pooling, chipping, or delamination of ink. Stuff is being rushed, or not cured properly. That is why some with problem playfields, but not all the same. Loose posts do not help with sloppy holes, but that is not the main problem.
Wood has moisture problems, not cleaned prior to sealing of wood, maybe not enough sealing coat(s), UV CURING BULBS GOING BAD!, finish clear when YOU CAN STILL SMELL THE INK!, or finish clear applied to heavy or quickly between coats (off gasing).

Quoted from chuckwurt:

It would have no effect.

Quoted from Utesichiban:

These are pictures from my recently purchase Elvira’s HOH. I noticed what appeared to be some small scratches near the middle of the playfield early on (10-15 plays in). It isnt as noticeable in darker light but yesterday in better light I took some pictures which I’m posting here (this game has about 60-70 plays so far).
Is this normal or a clear coat imperfection? I haven’t purchased many NIB games and not sure if this is me nitpicking or something I should be concerned about long term and report to my distributor and Stern. There appear to be small scratch trails from the middle area which you should be able to see if you enlarge the pictures a bit.
Any insight is appreciated.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]