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(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

1 year ago



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  • 601 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 minutes ago by Extraballz
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#904 1 year ago

I think if you get actual chipping (not just pooling) and get given a replacement PF free of charge that's a good and realistic outcome. It's a good halfway between no compensation and complete populated PF swap.

In reality most people wont swap the PF - they'll just put some washers on and keep the new PF as insurance. Hang it on the wall as art. Then the game will get sold down the track with a brand new uninstalled PF for the new buyer - almost a better outcome since the PF will be NOS and preferable to a used but installed PF.

I know some are expecting fully re-populated PF swaps, and for some very severe cases this may be warranted. But for the most part we should be happy to accept that there is a grey area between a commercial product that has high velocity steel ball flying around hitting things with huge force and a home consumer product / piece of art that should look pristine for as long as possible. A free of charge replacement PF is a good compromise that reflects that.

Kudos to JJP for accepting this and reaching out to affected owners.

#911 1 year ago
Quoted from PinB:

For reference, another new JP with pooling around the washers.
[quoted image]

That looks about ready to pop.

#926 1 year ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Cooked you know i love ya and you are one of my favorite pinsiders but there shouldn't be no halfway on a 6-13K game. The customer should not be out one penny for a defective playfield. It's 100% JJP and Sterns fault, the customer shouldn't be out any money because of these shit playfields.

Yeh I can definitely see your side. These issues are happening out of the box, so the argument that “ this is pinball” doesn’t really hold when no pinball has been played on the game.

I’ve had my fair share of serious Playfield issues. Almost all other issues can be resolved relatively easily. But Pf damage is usually “terminal”. I’m lucky in that I have the equipment and space to do a full pf swap - (and I actually enjoy it). But I still believe having a brand new NOS pf to offer when selling a game is at least as good or even better than a used one installed.

#935 1 year ago

A playfield is only new once.

#937 1 year ago
Quoted from andre060:

Totally agree. People underestimate the work to swap older games. I'll do a swap on a new one over an old one any day of the week.

Hot swapping new games is relatively easy if you have the tools. Even a "complex" game like WOZ. Leave the original populated PF in the game, new pf on a rotisserie - remove from old, install on new. As long as you take your time and are methodical about it.

Stripping, restoring and re-populating an old game is a different animal.

#1002 1 year ago
Quoted from LukyDuck:

And what would I do with all of the extra parts when I am done?

You build another game with the old Playfield.

#1005 1 year ago

So what’s the consensus on the best washers to use under the posts for these games? What size/material?

#1073 1 year ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

my engine has blown up in my car. BMW dropped a new engine off and I'm doing the swap myself.
Are you guys serious? A replacement playfield on its own is +nowhere+ NEAR an acceptable solution to this. Please please please for the love of god stop saying it is.
Cheers,
Neil.

Thats not the same at all. Playfield chipping is purely cosmetic.

It’s the equivalent of driving the car and the paint chipping under the wheel wells more easily than expected. Doesn’t affect drivability, it’s purely cosmetic and if it wasn’t happening so soon could be considered normal wear and tear.

Your analogy is equivalent to the Spike CPU dying, making the game unplayable. A simple swap fixes everything.

That’s why there needs to be a reasonable and equitable solution. It’s not as black and white as some like to believe.

I’m all for a good carguement, but in this case pinball is nothing like the car industry - it’s a tiny boutique hobby making discretionary toys. The car industry on the other hand is huge, hugely profitable, making objects essential to everyday life for every human on the planet. If the car fails it has very real, often life threatening, consequences.

The cost of recalls and warranty claims to the car industry are huge, but due to the scale of these companies, it’s easily absorbed.

Pinball is tiny by comparison.

I’m not saying this is not an issue. It is. But I think the solution needs to be reasonable for all parties. Washers for the posts is not satisfactory. A new unpopulated PF in my opinion is. If this issue is as widespread as Pinside would indicate, fully populated Playfield swaps for every game with pooling or chipping around posts would bankrupt some manufacturers in this industry.

#1075 1 year ago
Quoted from NintenBear:

Guitar manufacturing is a small business, and I look at Paul Reed Smith. PRS guitars are built in Maryland, and are some of the finest wood instruments in existence. Their quality is also top notch. My point is how are they able to produce such a fantastic items that last, yet I’d venture to say are the same size as Stern and JJP. IMHO, I think it comes down to their passion of quality and giving a crap that the owners name is attached to the instrument.

In this case I think the manufacturers have been caught out by supplier error. If we take this argument to it’s logical ending, Stern and JJP should be claiming the complete cost of mass populated Playfield swaps against Mirco (or whoever). There’s no way a small supplier like Mirco could bear the brunt of such a claim. They’d be struggling just to provide replacement Playfields I would think.

#1142 1 year ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

Don’t get me wrong. I absolutely love this game but let’s compare a game that is 30+ years old to one that had no plays. Which looks better to you? The game that is 30+ years old or the one that was born on August 17th 2019.
[quoted image][quoted image]

The old one has cracking around the inserts! Just kidding, I know, its 30 years old.

#1143 1 year ago
Quoted from RonSS:

This thread is about playfield pooling and chipping. You're arguing springs and stops.

In @zaphx 's defence, he didn't bring the springs and stops into the mix - he was responding to another pinsider who did.

#1178 1 year ago
Quoted from PW79:

I was in the NIB market during Stern’s ghosted insert era (2017 me thinks)
Before pulling the trigger I reached out to Stern to see if they fixed the issue.
No response
Then the new Star Wars manual had wording stating ghosting was normal IIRC
So I bought a NIB Golden Tee instead & love it
This time around I am eyeing a NIB Big Buck Hunter HD
Or maybe I will just wait & see what Stern does
Either way I’m buying some more cool shit so life is good
Super Chex looks awesome. Get one dude!

Wonder what the resale is like on these games?

#1234 1 year ago
Quoted from yancy:

Turn the lights on.

Potatoes don’t have flashes.

#1243 1 year ago
Quoted from Slugmeister:

Is this insight or an insult or what the hell

Just an insightful insult or an insulting insight. Lol.

No, really, you haven’t heard the saying “looks like the photo was taken with a potato”? I wasn’t calling you personally a potato. Just your camera. You have to admit it was a bad photo.

#1417 1 year ago
Quoted from tbutler6:

LE #20 shipped. No washers. No ink around posts. Compare to pro attached. From pre/le JP thread[quoted image][quoted image]

Can’t see what’s going on there. Any idea whether they’ve fixed the post in front of the upper flipper?

#1420 1 year ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

It looks like theres now a small area without artwork around each star post that didn't exist on early pros?

So they re-printed the Playfields? Hopefully they also tweaked the clear mix.

28
#1463 1 year ago

I just received my Jurassic Park LE with the new Playfield fixes. Very happy. Think it’s goung to last forever.

C082DE93-E24B-41B9-B8A7-F515A4A33037 (resized).jpeg
#1494 1 year ago
Quoted from snaroff:

CPR sells it's PF's

How are CPR's new digital print PF's holding up?

#1506 1 year ago
Quoted from BeaglePuss:

[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

That playfield is rooted.

#1588 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballwil:

I don't hope Deeproot already have some pile of playfields in stock that are digital printed for the first 3 games.
Deeproot can't deliver screenprinted playfield for the (low) price point i think.

Guaranteed Deeproot will be hardtop.

#1635 1 year ago

Just inboxed a March 19 built Deadpool Premium and the Playfield is perfect.

#1643 1 year ago
Quoted from Rum-Z:

Better yet, disassemble it and immediately and put thin washers under all ball guides (unless Stern took the initiative to do it by now).

I did that before playing. It’s a March build, so before this chipping thing blew up and Stern started using washers. But there’s no sign of any pooling at all on the pf and it’s had 6 months to do it.

#1658 1 year ago
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:

Hate to say it.. so were all mine out of the box.
It seems to happen at the posts where the ball hits them full on.
Good luck you may have a good one.

Great, something to look forward to. Adds a whole new level to NIB pinball ownership.

#1807 1 year ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

And now we have the latest news that Deeproot will offer a 10 year playfield warranty.
10 years.
Yes, it's still all talk but boy if they deliver, Stern and co have every right to be getting pretty worried.

Easy to offer on a printed plastic hardtop Playfield.

#2125 1 year ago
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:

There will be an update soon so it can in the options, Would you like cratering, pooling or peeling? NIB or in 2 month, 6 months or 1 year? Please select.

Quoted from o-din:

I want an option where I can see cabinet corners splitting too.

Lol. I’m not downloading until it’s got ghosting and node board failure.

#2126 1 year ago
Quoted from littlecammi:

So is this how deeproot intends to reduce cost and yet provide a ten year warranty on playfields?

Yes.

Thunderbirds, for all its mediocrity, is actually a really well built game (for the most part). It has a hardtop pf and looks fantastic. Seems to play ok.

Personally I’m not a fan of hardtop vs real wood but I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s the next step for all manufacturers.

#2143 1 year ago
Quoted from kermit24:

Before Stern swapped out my Ghostbusters PF they sent me a bottle of clear. That won't be the final resolution for those with a truly bad playfield. The frenzy on here, while understandable to a certain extent, is also quite over the top. Give Stern a chance to make it right. Can't speak for JJP as I have not been a customer, but I have not seen an example of a populated playfield replacement from them.

Obviously I know Stern do send out populated pf’s for severe cases, but why send out a bottle of clear if your intention is to replace the Playfield?

It’s a process of giving the bear minimum the customer will accept.

2 weeks later
#2656 1 year ago

I would have thought a Dinosaur themed game would be right up O-din's alley....being a Dinosaur and all.....Ha ha....Ha..

3 months later
#4374 9 months ago

That post design has been fixed in later runs. The JP pro Playfield pictured above is an early build (August 19 - game was released July 19) and known for issues. They’ve since removed the art from around that post and the new post goes all the way through the Playfield and is secured by a nut and washer underneath the pf.

#4380 9 months ago
Quoted from BobC:

But changing the artwork to camouflage chipping near posts is not a very good solution.

They removed the artwork not to hide the damage, but to allow the clear to adhere to the wood. The problem with the pooling is coming from the artwork not adhering to the wood. The clear is doing its job - the art isn’t.

#4391 9 months ago
Quoted from Aquapin:

It was a combination of both. The paint would not impact the fact that the clear can be leveled with a heat gun. They have since made adjustments to both the art and clear coat.

Makes sense. My JP2LE is perfect. One of the best Stern playfields I’ve had.

#4398 9 months ago
Quoted from pinballaddicted:

Our JP2LE playfield has a bit of insert crazing and insert bubbling. No biggie for most people. Best playfields we ever got from Stern was pre 2015 (Churchill) and games made in 2017. 2016 had issues (ghosting, ribbing, playfield chipping, crazed inserts) and 2018, 2019 had issues as well (pooling, ribbing, playfield chipping, crazed inserts).
I am not sure what 2020 will bring. I hope after this shitstorm settles that Stern and JJP realize that customers paying top dollar for their toys want top dollar product. Completely pisses me off that a $14K or $15.5K machine (Australia) has bubbles and cracks in a 20 cent insert. Then you start adding ribbing, a few playfield chips and before you know it, you have a magnifying glass checking your playfield and finding everything wrong with it instead of playing and enjoying your brand new game.
NIB Cabinets and playfields need to be as perfect as possible.

Fair enough - can only speak from personal experience. I’ve absolutely had my fair share of sh*t Stern Playfields, but am very happy with my JPLE. Absolutely agree that all manufacturers need to fix the mess of the last couple of years. I can’t believe that the pinball industry’s collective knowledge on how to make a Playfield has somehow been lost.

#4401 9 months ago
Quoted from Yesh23:

My game has a date of the last week in August. I talked with a tech at Stern today and he said the fix started in Sept about 500 games after mine.

Thought so. Still doesn’t make your situation acceptable. Good luck - hope they sort it out for you as they should.

4 months later
#5405 4 months ago
Quoted from jdoz2:

I would be thrilled to have just dimples. I have noticeable wood grain on majority of my playfield on top of some chipping and bubbling.

BBE07397-62D9-4BB0-9331-DFEE51A21DDC (resized).png

That’s really atrocious. Should be a no question asked pf swap. Clearly defective. It’s such a lottery. My JPLe pf was flawless....best Stern Pf I’ve had.

1 week later
#5558 3 months ago
Quoted from Colehvac1:

In my case its unpopulated, i was also told stern wants the old one back. Im going to do the swap then send back the old one as long as they include a return receipt, they said they would. I think making customers wait 6-12 months or more is crappy, this kind of treatment is on purpose, starts at the top.

Tell them you and your family all have coronavirus, but you soldiered on and managed to swap the Playfield anyway. Tell them you can’t guarantee everyone hasn’t sneezed on the playfield, but if they’d like it back you and your family can personally drop it off next week.

And then tell them to Vaffanculo.

#5573 3 months ago
Quoted from jorant:

Honest to god it has kept me away from newer purchases. Makes me feel like attack from mars or monster bash are the only next nib purchases I'd be comfortable making.

My Nib Monster Bash was the worst dimpling game I’ve had. Didn’t worry me personally, but if it does you then don’t get too excited.

#5593 3 months ago
Quoted from Durzel:

People have short memories with this stuff, and when a new pin gets released it gets shorter still. New pin with a theme based on something they remember from their youth? Straight up amnesia.
Stern won’t improve because they don’t need to. The only leverage consumers have over them is not putting up with this shit, but they can’t even manage not to throw money at them.

Should be a key post in this thread.

#5634 3 months ago
Quoted from Colehvac1:

Finally!
looks good to me
Cant wait to install it [quoted image][quoted image]

Art actually looks pretty good on JP when you see the unpopulated pf. Didn’t know there was a moat around the pop bumper area.

#5646 3 months ago
Quoted from paynemic:

I’m putting my flame suit on, but I’m helping fix up a Star Wars home pin (it’s actually awesome, btw). It has a playfield unlike what I’ve seen before. Looks like particle board? No dimpling or other problems, but it has a slight orange peel texture everywhere. Is this the future of playfields? If not, why not (other than tradition)?[quoted image]

Particle board is possible the worst material for playfields. I sincerely hope thats not the way they are going for all games - and I doubt it. Probably OK for a home game, but as soon as you have to remove and replace any components that are screwed directly into the PF youre screwed (see what i did there?). You might get one or 2 re-screws before it loses it's hold.

Is there a wood veneer over the top?

#5651 3 months ago
Quoted from Darscot:

t lease Ikea stuff looks good and everyone knows you put it together where you need and don't move it.

And at lease it's cheap.

Stern Home Edition, not so much.

#5709 3 months ago
Quoted from newpinbin:

I have had the game for two days. I emailed Stern and have not heard back.

What game? Is it old stock from a distributor or current?

Actually, on that note, are new TMNT Le's still coming with cabinet brackets installed and ply cabinet bottoms?

#5730 3 months ago
Quoted from Rum-Z:

It almost looks like someone installed too long of screws from the backside and the screw tips almost popped through the top layer. Do any of these spots line up with screw holes on the backside? Just curious.

Good point - may explain why they started installing the lower Playfield then stopped.

Why the f would they send him this pf? Who is making these decisions?

#5741 3 months ago
Quoted from o-din:

It might benefit the pinball community if all manufacturers would seek out the best quality parts they could find.

Nah, stupid idea.

#5812 3 months ago
Quoted from Rob_G:

Dimpling was a thing even on 90's games. AFM was an airball circus and the playfield dimpled on that as bad, or worse than any Stern I have seen. Check the RGP archives if you don't believe me. I fixed arcade games in the 90's so I saw it myself on our AFM. Some playfields looked so bad that some owners asked WMS for replacement fields.
Rob

Don’t doubt that at all. And since it was mostly operators back then, they couldn’t have cared less about dimpling. Might have been an “issue”, but no one cared.

#5814 3 months ago
Quoted from jorant:

I only own three pins at the moment, all of which are JJP

Hmm. Fills in a lot of blanks.

2 weeks later
#6056 86 days ago
Quoted from Prodoshi:

PF warp from top to bottom (angle), 6.27 - 7.01 - 6.85 degrees...

Vertical variations in pitch are normal in all modern games.

#6073 86 days ago
Quoted from seenev:

Stern encourages people to view these as collectibles. Not only are they priced for the high end home market, but they release premium and limited editions with exclusive features and artwork. They put autographs on them and number them. Saying these games are intended to get beat up on location and we're not supposed to care about poor quality goes against their entire marketing strategy. You can't have it both ways.

Had to “laugh“ earlier in this thread.....one really unhappy Stern customer.....and it turns out he is a competition player who bought through the IFPA.

The narrative from Stern and fanboys has always been “only home collectors are picky and complain about quality issues such as crap playfields, cheap coil stops, and half baked mechs. But it doesn’t matter, our target market is “real” pinball players and operators, and “real players” don’t care about this stuff.”

Well, the tide is out Stern - Covid has the screwed the operators and the comp players. And even the comp players are unhappy.

Guess you have no choice but to deal with the pesky home collectors now.

#6120 82 days ago
Quoted from seenev:

On the point about weight, my dad was helping me set up my JP premium, and he went to hold it up as I put on the legs. Having a Williams standard body at home, he had some expectation of how heavy it was. He was shocked by how light it is. It's true that games require less wiring and electronics mass now, but they just feel cheaper and more flimsy than before. I'm not even dissatisfied with the cabinet or anything with my game. I'm really only upset about the playfield... But I do think it's a cheaper build quality overall.

The metal back boxes are significantly lighter. Combined with the wiring, that’s the bulk of the weight difference.

#6185 77 days ago
Quoted from JY64:

LOL whenever you zoom in past about the %60 point on a phone the pic gets grainy and if you feel the need to zoom in to try and find imperfections than you are the issue not Stern

Like this? What’s this, about 2-300%? Doesn’t look grainy to me.
FE42F321-0C22-4C7E-8667-30C743F79F70 (resized).jpeg670AE165-474A-4C11-8ADD-4D92CFDE2068 (resized).jpeg

1 week later
#6270 70 days ago

U didn’t need to ad that line panzerfreak - he really is.

19
#6297 68 days ago
Quoted from JY64:The diefferance between me and others on Pinside is I do not whine like a bitch

And yet here you are.....bitch.

Quoted from JY64:

Your right I was going to buy a Areosmith but did not because of cabinet issues than was going to get a IM just when the chipping started so I did not buy a IM.

Just curious how you found out about the Aerosmith cabinets and IM chipping? On Pinside? From whining bitches?

#6320 64 days ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Stern has a months long order backlog if the rumors can be believed

Only because of COVID production disruption.

But you’re right, they’ve got no reason to change.

The conspiracy theorist would say that in a monopoly market, a manufacturer could gradually reduce quality to create an artificial market for an “upgraded” option, such as a “premium Playfield”. But in sterns case I think it’s pure and simple cost cutting greed.

2 months later
#6960 3 days ago

I think Mirco has no choice now but to label the new product “Spectrum”.

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