(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern

By f3honda4me

3 months ago

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#1490 88 days ago
Quoted from meSz:

Stern broke radio silence with leaking the Elvira game .... they figured what better way to stop the playfield talks then a new game and people are lining up for it!

Quoted from jp1985:

It’s insulting really.

You guys are assuming that the Stern leak was intentional?
If it was, then why wouldn’t they just announce the next game?
I don’t follow your logic. Seems like a case of assuming the worst, without having any real information.

#1496 88 days ago
Quoted from meSz:

With Sterns current stance I am looking for my next pin to be Wonka or GnR as if I have issues I know Jack will back it up. Might take a little time, understandably, but he has proven to me that he will take care of his customers.

Well it’s great to hear the JJP is fixing their issues. Last I heard, they were charging $500 for an unpopulated playfield as the “fix”. Not sure what else they can afford to do but this doesn’t seem like a solution that I’d be pleased with, personally.
For Stern, fingers are crossed they’ve got this figured out and put behind them. Curious to hear if/how they’ll help any buyers who have issues.
Sucks for everybody, no exceptions.

#1552 88 days ago
Quoted from captainadam_21:

Has that picture been posted in the elvira official thread? They might want to see that

Isn’t that playfield only relevant if it was produced after Stern changed to their new “no art near the posts” way of producing playfields? Given they have a video for it, I’d be thinking strongly that the playfield in question was made the same way as the other defective ones and that (fingers remain crossed) the issue has been resolved.
Everyone’s still waiting to hear from the newest Jurassic Park LE owners for confirmation, as I understand it?

#1561 87 days ago
Quoted from Halfwasted:

I feel like everybody on pinside has drank the Stern Kool-Aid and has forgotten about playfield issues besides this thread.
How could Stern possible address the issue fully in a few weeks.
Wait a new pin... Squirrel!

Because it has been made clear that they DID make some changes. It remains to be seen if all problems are now solved, so we wait optimistically.
(As opposed to taking a conspiracy theory approach and suggesting that their leaked info was intentional and that it came from someone at Stern who thought it would trick everyone into buying games with defective... Good grief man. Get a grip.)

#1564 87 days ago
Quoted from Manic:

Hmmm... so you missed the hi-res pic of the Elvira PF with the nicely sinking post? Good 'ole hard clear doesn't let things sink right into it like that.

Nope, I saw that too. But the regular Pinside naysayer/Stern bashers are a little too quick to assume that this was made recently, in my opinion.
From what I've read on here, the first "corrected" playfields were received last Friday? If that's accurate, it's highly likely that the Elvira playfield was made before that. (They had time to complete a video on it, and take press release photos, right?)

I'm just saying that the new playfields are already in Pinsiders homes so let's wait to hear from them to see if the problems are fixed, instead of assuming that they aren't.

#1567 87 days ago
Quoted from Halfwasted:

You sound like a Stern apologist.
If Stern would come out and state the issue was addressed, we wouldn't have to guess.

Riiiiiiiight. If you’re not bashing Stern, you’re an apologist.
People like you make Pinside the LEAST pinball-friendly site there is.

Considering your collection doesn’t contain a single Stern title, you “Sir”, sound like a troll.

#1572 87 days ago
Quoted from Halfwasted:

I have two pins right now, one is a Iron Maiden Pro.
Grow up...

Maybe it’s time to update your collection.

Out of curiosity, how is your maiden playfield doing?

#1758 84 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

There are a lot of putz’s like myself that just bought a JPLE and ElviraLE
Didn’t take long for 400 LEs to be sold
I’ve bought several Stern pins over the years and despite the occasional mishap like the BM66 turntable I’ve been really happy and satisfied with what I’ve gotten
I guess people like myself believe the issue is in the past or not enough of one to make a difference
Those are the outright facts when LEs sell through like they did

That, and the fact that Stern has made a change that so far, appears to have fixed the issue.

#1819 82 days ago
Quoted from moonraker:

Perfect no issues! 25 yrs[quoted image]

Quite possibly the first and only time that the word “perfect” has been used to describe Last Action Hero?
; )

#1821 82 days ago
Quoted from Darkwing:

I’m not sure it’s very widely known though. When I brought it up at our weekly pinball league, even some of the route operators had not heard of it. I made sure to relay my first hand experience and point them to the pinside thread as well. Unfortunately, I think Stern is being somewhat successful in sweeping this under the rug

What exactly has Stern done that could be seen as “sweeping this under the rug”?

#1824 82 days ago
Quoted from Aquapin:

Adding washers instead of dealing with the actual problem for starters...

Yeah, not getting it right doesn’t qualify as “sweeping it under the rug” in my opinion.
Appears as though they tried fixing it but their fix wasn’t successful.
Whereas “sweeping it under the rug” has a much more sinister meaning, in my opinion.

#1827 82 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

How about making public statements saying its not a widespread issue... then turn around and quietly change your builds to include washers... then change the art on a game to avoid it.. all while not acknowledging the issue for what it is?
It's typical stern.... try to handle everything on a 'case by case basis' to minimize exposure and do everything possible to avoid publicizing the issue... including denial.

How widespread is it then, Flynn? What percentage of owners have reported issues to Stern? 1%? 5%? More? You tell me. Stern has made changes the fix the issue which is light chipping around a couple posts, that doesn’t affect gameplay.
I don’t want an imperfect playfield any more than anyone else, but from their view, I doubt this is an issue worthy of stopping the production lines.
Hopefully they’ll replace some of the playfields with the biggest issues, but from a legal standpoint, I doubt it’s in their best interest to make an announcement, drawing people’s attention to light pooling, for the most part -that doesn’t even affect gameplay.
Now, let’s agree that there are different ways they could have handled this, and that you would have liked something different. Fine.
But that’s not the same as stating that they’re sweeping the issue under the rug. In fact, they changed the process and that seems to have fixed the issue.
I would expect they’ll continue to deal with some owners on a case by case basis, as warranted -but I expect that they won’t replace playfields for every owner who found light pooling after reading Pinside and rushing down to inspect their machines.

#1831 82 days ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

Why in the hell would this matter? If even ONE game had a problem, it should be fixed - immediately. That's what being a manufacturer of products is. You put out a product, and then you support said product.
-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107

Follow the post. The context was that Stern had said it’s not a widespread issue and Flynn states it is.

#1834 82 days ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

Not my point. Regardless of the stance of whether the problem is widespread or not, the issue should be given attention. And Stern's not giving it.
-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107

Dude, you’re way out in left field. Nobody said issues should or should not be remedied.
The discussion was that Stern has stated it’s not widespread.
That’s all.

Good luck with your Wonka.

#1836 82 days ago
Quoted from jfh:

More. I have heard >10% from multiple distributors (and that’s only the games they are aware of). Obviously we won’t ever know the scope unless Stern releases more info (unlikely).
And, FYI, they already stopped the production lines to replace the JP playfields with the new design without the artwork under the posts.
Unfortunately, Stern now apparently considers pooling normal so I suspect there will be even more pushback when distributors try to get resolution for their impacted customers. Maybe a route operator sees pooling as a minor issue; most home buyers do not.

And there’s a whole other interesting topic of discussion. Pooling.
ASSUMING it’s only ever pooling, and doesn’t get to chipping, should Stern pay to replace entire playfields? Not in my opinion.
Should they replace playfields with minor chipping near a post? I sure hope they do, cause I like my playfields perfect -but that’s the “collector” approach that I have. Assuming the chip doesn’t affect the gameplay, and the game still works as intended, why would a company offer to pay the costs of replacing playfields? Especially when they’ve previously syptated that playfields aren’t under warranty.
Only if it drastically affects future sales, is the answer.

Damn, I seriously hope we never get to paying for extended warranties as is common in some industries.

#1838 82 days ago
Quoted from J85M:

If it’s true that Stern stopped the JP line to address the issue I’d say that’s proof enough it’s fairly widespread, if it was a couple playfields here and there you would think simply removing them from the line would be sufficient.

Disagree. They may have noticed that it was 100% of playfields for a 1 week period and that they needed to fix it moving forward, but that 1 week worth of pins isn’t considered “widespread” in the grand scheme of things.
Something worthy of fixing does not indicate “widespread”.
Does it?

#1841 82 days ago
Quoted from Dr-pin:

So thoose saying they have chipping on beatles, maiden etc are all liars?

No, of course not. I never said that anyone was a liar.
The discussion is whether there are enough issues to be called “widespread”.

I’ve posted enough on the subject as expressed my opinion.
You are all welcome to your own, and I respect that, truly.

I’m just not a fan if people labelling Stern when I don’t think they are intentionally deceiving anyone.
Of course, you are welcome to vote with your wallets and avoid future pins u til such time as you feel supported enough to purchase.

#1848 82 days ago
Quoted from Vinnie:

My playfield chipped in under 3 weeks of ownership. I have pooling/blistering at basically every post. Bottom line if Stern doesn't take care of me as a customer I will never do business with them again regardless what their "warranty" states. Not standing behind a product less then 30 days old qualifies as bad customer service to me and such a company doesn't deserve my money. Does Stern care? Guess I will find out eventually... My case has been open for about 4 weeks now and am still waiting for Stern to respond.

I think we all can appreciate your stance, especially if the chipping has occurred in so many areas.
I would hope that Stern does take care of you. I would almost guarantee though that it won’t happen quickly.

#1863 82 days ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Great post. As a point of reference, I recently pulled a piece of Mylar from the upper orbit of maiden. The smell of uncured clearcoat was so strong it was amazing! Do doubt about how soft it still was and just sealed in by the Mylar.

I love the smell of clearcoat, in the morning.

#1868 81 days ago
Quoted from greenhornet:

what connotation do you give the term 'cover-up'?
from wikipedia:
A cover-up is an attempt, whether successful or not, to conceal evidence of wrongdoing, error, incompetence or other embarrassing information. In a passive cover-up, information is simply not provided; in an active cover-up, deception is used.
The expression is usually applied to people in positions of authority who abuse power to avoid or silence criticism or to deflect guilt of wrongdoing. Perpetrators of a cover-up may be responsible for a misdeed, a breach of trust or duty, or a crime.
... cover-up involves withholding incriminatory evidence ...
A cover-up involving multiple parties is a kind of conspiracy.

Well, if they said it's not widespread, they're not indicating it didn't happen. And again, given the number of pins that were produced, and given we don't know how many have experienced chipping (I'm going to assume that Stern isnt concerned about pooling since it 's only cosmetic), it could absolutely be considered to be "not widespread".
So no, "cover-up" is equally ridiculous and accusatory.

With respect to another posters comments, assuming that all of the pooling will lead to chipping in a few years and demanding playfields be replaced is also absolutely insane. What company is going to spend money, replacing things that aren't broken.

Pinside is nuts. It COULD be the most positive place to discuss pinball, where distributors like Stern COULD ask us for opinions and feedback.
Instead, (and I'm going to quote a friend here) it's a dumpster fire that Stern understandably wants no part of.

From my point of view, you can't accuse them of lying, using words like "cover up" and also expect them to spend thousands of dollars on issues that haven't proven to be a problem yet (pooling), and also criticize them for not announcing every issue they encounter.
Their choice to deal with defects on a case by case basis is the only thing that seems to make sense around here.

You are welcome to be critical of the way they operate, and refuse to spend your hard earned cash on anything they produce.
I on the other hand, am looking forward to picking up a Jurassic Park Premium as soon as possible.

I am currently "out of F(*&s to give" as they say. If you want to hate on Stern, have fun with your Wonkas.
I'm out.

#1875 81 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Wrong. I just got informed that I have a recall on a 2010 vehicle I own. Has it been a problem, no. Should the manufacturer take care of it if they identify a problem. Ill let you answer that.

Again, absolutely ridiculous.
A car that’s defective is massively different from a pinball machine.
(I don’t want to give it away completely, but think of what happens to the user when these two very different machines fail to operate as intended)

The other thing to consider is this: Pinsiders appear to consider pooling on par with global warming. Operators likely do not share the same concern. So Stern announcing a recall and drawing attention to something that’s perhaps not even important, is not only unnecessary, it’s throwing money down the drain. That money is recouped with higher prices.
If that’s what you want, you’re on your own.

#1880 81 days ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

I think your missing the point...Stern chose to market to high end collectors, and priced their games accordingly. With that comes a different level of expectation

I’m not missing the point at all. We weren’t talking about how high the bar has to be for high end collectors.
But since you bring it up, are you suggesting that the owners of Pro machines aren’t entitled to the same level of quality as the LE owners? Please clarify.
My own view is that all machines should operate as intended. I would say that large chips could prevent that from happening and should warrant replacement. I would also suggest that smaller chips do not change the playability, but given the cost of these, it’s a “nice” thing for Stern to eat the replacement cost, if possible.
Pooling? Shouldn’t even be replaced for high end collectors UNLESS it’s proven to deteriorate to severe chipping in the future.

If you think that you have the right to a replacement simply because there are small wrinkles around a couple posts that you only notice when searching for, after having read about it on Pinside, that’s your right. But good luck with that.
This isn’t a Rolex or a Masseratti we’re talking about.

I would much prefer to hold them accountable to better playing auto launcher mechs, for example.

#1898 81 days ago
Quoted from apinballwiz:

Very well said, bulls eye!

Great point!
“If a game is expensive, we automatically get to amend the warranty in our favour!”

This is the ridiculousness that is Pinside.
Stern (I believe?) has stated that they will review play fields on a case by case basis. But Pinsiders are upset that Stern hasn’t made a public announcement, over an issue that so far seems to be (in most of the cases) cosmetic, only?

I’m glad we could hash this out to nail down everyone’s expectations of Stern.
Seems reasonable.

#1906 81 days ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Listen these are complicated machines that are priced accordingly....nobody wants to modify anything...all customers expect is a new game with no flaws....its really that simple....if Stern knowingly ship a game with flaws than they should warrant the product. Clearly they are aware that the product is substandard as they've added washers to the games. Pooling is a more complex issue as most owners wouldn't care about a little pooling, but their concern is whether or not this leads to chipping once the game is out of warranty, which is a valid concern. From the tone of your messages u think that a little chipping is perfectly fine and the new normal. Thats great u feel that way, but I highly doubt many people would agree with you. Do you know of any cases where Stern has replaced a play field due to chipping?

Quoted from Chambahz:

I would say that large chips could prevent that from happening and should warrant replacement. I would also suggest that smaller chips do not change the playability, but given the cost of these, it’s a “nice” thing for Stern to eat the replacement cost, if possible.
Pooling? Shouldn’t even be replaced for high end collectors UNLESS it’s proven to deteriorate to severe chipping in the future.

#1916 81 days ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

Do you think Stern don't know that we are concerned or pissed off? I think they do. Otherwise turning around a new play field design for JP in a matter of weeks wouldn't have happened.
It would be a shame to turn a session into a moan and vent session rather than a positive session that helps all pinheads in the medium term.

Agreed. Why not ask them to explain their process when it comes to returns/defects.
Have them explain what THEY consider to be worthy of replacement.
Then you all know what to expect before spending hard earned cash on a new machine.
The “case by case” explanation is vague, and leaves owners wondering what to expect.

#1923 81 days ago
Quoted from Utesichiban:

I think part of their problem is they are trying to do too much too fast. Changing the playfield design really doesnt solve the issue if bad clear is the problem. Over the time there would likely be playfield wear and issues due to the ongoing problem.
They would be smart to stop production altogether until they know exactly how to fix the clear or paint problem and make sure nothing going out going forward is defective. Continuing to risk defective clear and playfields going to even more customers will only become a bigger liability and do more damage to their reputation amongst their customer base.
As for their unwillingness to acknowledge it discuss that a problem even exists, I'm sure that is their lawyers recommendation. The problem is how will those of us that refuse to buy NIB now until we know the problem has been addressed and fixed know it is safe to buy again? I have to think what is going on is significantly impacted their sales on these new pins.

Thank you for clearly demonstrating your level of knowledge when it comes to pinball manufacturing.
(Your pinball company just went bankrupt FYI)

-your Pal, “Gary”

#1926 81 days ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Now it makes sense....you work for Stern....got it

He accused me of it earlier so I’m just having fun with it.

Thinking more about your view point, I’ll say this:
You have an unrealistic level of expectation from Stern.
They have clearly stated that playfields are not under warranty.
You insist on a perfect playfield.

Neither of you is “wrong” but you have not agreed on this matter.
You appear to feel that Stern is obligated/indebted to provide perfect playfields and that anything less than 100% should be replaced at their expense. Remember that this is Stern pinball we’re talking about. It’s not Sony, Apple, or Toyota.
Yes, they are the biggest pinball manufacturer, but this is an industry that most people don’t even know exists.
There are no Ferrari’s in the parking lot.

Given this inability to agree on a perfect playfield, it’s really best for you to avoid buying new in box, and instead to wait and buy a second hand game that you can inspect, ensuring it’s to your satisfaction.

There’s nothing wrong with that, and it’s not meant to belittle or insult you so I hope you can appreciate the observation.

Quite frankly, it shouldn’t matter one bit to me. But I get annoyed when some people (not saying you), can’t understand that Stern is already offering more than they have committed to, and then try to call them out for lying, sweeping things under the rug, etc etc. They may not be operating to your level of expectation, but that doesn’t mean that they’re deceitful or doing anything wrong.

#1936 81 days ago
Quoted from Utesichiban:

I think you are missing the point. I think most of everyone posting here would be very happy if Stern just got back to the quality of game they made for 2 decades. These type of playfield issues (ghosting, pooling/chipping, etc ) rarely happened for years and now have increasingly becoming the norm.

Try to keep up, Utah.
There’s this thing, called “the environment”. And as of late, companies are no longer allowed to use super harsh chemicals because it’s bad for this “environment”. So things have changed.

Quoted from Utesichiban:

It is hardly an unreasonable expectation that a brand new product costing 6-8k not have issues that potentially threaten the long term integrity of the heart of the product (i.e. - playfield) almost out of the box. Your expectations of what constitutes acceptable from a new product from a pinball or other manufacturer is pretty low.

Here is the thing: just because YOU deem it to be reasonable to expect something, doesn’t mean that the manufacturers are in agreement. In this case, they aren’t. See the warranty if you want evidence.

Your expectations of what constitutes acceptable for a new product from a pinball manufacturer is pretty unrealistic in today’s world.

I LOVE the fact that this has come down to some Pinsiders stating that they demand play field perfection. It makes the discussion so much easier to comprehend. One expectation is not equal to what’s being offered. In this case, the manufacturer has put their commitment in writing. Yours is known only to you and may be subject to change at anytime without notice.

#1940 81 days ago
Quoted from Utesichiban:

Sorry I mistook you for Gary. I should have realized you were Stern's corporate counsel (the give away is the legalistic, condescending tone).
If you want to take that attitude, fine. Care to explain why CGC can still make quality playfields and games without these issues if it is "environmental" issues that are the main problem?
Either way, Stern needs to improve and fix this (and the perception) or they are going to be losing a lot of business going forward.

Hey, you started with the name calling. Don’t be shocked that I’m now giving back!

With respect to the current state of pinball, I have no idea what CGC uses. You’d have to ask them.
Fingers crossed. So far, JP LE playfields and the most recent Pro models appear to have no issues.
Here’s hoping it was just a bump that was hit, converting to a new process and all this is behind us.

#1952 81 days ago
Quoted from Jackalwere:

You've been making a good argument up to this point but I'll have to call BS on this one. First, you or I have no idea whether environmental issues have contributed to the root cause of the problem.
Second, if Spooky, CGC and American Pinball can make a playfield without pooling and chipping, then Stern and JJP should be able to do it too.

Agreed. I should have said something like: “it has been said that the EPA has forced them to change the ingredients”
Who really knows? In this case, it’s kinda irrelevant though. It is what it is and we are forced to deal with these changes.

Again, the silver lining appears to be that currently produced playfields are ok. So fingers are crossed.
(Meaning that whatever they are doing/using currently might be “back to normal”?)

People have declared that the clear is thinner on the new pins. Would be kinda funny if we found out that Stern tried pleasing us all by applying thicker clear, only to have this happen.

#1953 81 days ago
Quoted from Vinnie:

I don't think I'm being unreasonable to not expect this on a playfield less than 3 weeks old. I'm not being a "perfectionist" I understand there is wear and tear in pinball. But this is clearly defective and Stern should stand behind their product. Virtually every post on my playfield has pooling/blistering/creep or whatever you want to call it. Most of these are probably going to chip considering how early the first chip happened. Unfortunately I didn't know about these issues before I made my purchase or I never would have. I could not in good faith recommend anyone buying NIB right now. Hopefully Stern comes through for me and changes my mind but as of right now this was my first and will be my last NIB Stern.[quoted image]

I don’t think anyone here would disagree with you. Good luck with a replacement. I do hope that Stern considers this on a “case by case basis” and rules in your favour.
Heads up though: the return decision and process is typically quite lengthy. Doesn’t happen quickly.

#1972 80 days ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

Have you bought a NIB game that has pooling/chipping issues? Serious question.

I have not. And yes, chipping would bug me. Pooling? I don’t give a rats behind. If I had chipping, I would hope that Stern would make it right, but know that it’s not guaranteed.

On another note, I have purchased a previous LE (more than one, but one in particular), and lost a ton when I resold it.
I don’t blame Stern for that. I knew all the numbers going in, and that resale prices are dependant on the pins popularity and the market. Life goes on.

#1975 80 days ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

In all fairness your avatar pic does look a lot like Steve Richie from behind.

That’s funny. That was taken while playing a 4 player game with Lyman, Penny, and a good friend of mine.
One of my favs. I got to play pinball with Lyman!

#1978 80 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

I knew it lol. Pay a bunch, accept less! You literally just shamed pinsiders for demanding what we paid for, in the name of "the environment" and to expect more is then, anti-"the environment." So ridiculous man..

I'd love to know if ANYONE else got that sense from my post. It was not what I had intended, or meant to infer.

#1980 80 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

I accept your backwalk on "the environment" and how Stern should not be held liable, lest we ruin the environment by using chemicals that worked as intended just a few years ago.

I just meant that I believe that’s the reason for recent changes.
But as pointed out to me, that’s not been confirmed so I could be mistaken.
Wasn’t trying to guilt anyone for anything.

#1983 80 days ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

Wow, I thought you were someone who paid a lot of money for a game(s) and then had to deal with pooling/chipping. Turns out you have zero skin in the game. Is that about accurate?

No, it’s not. I’ve spent a truckload of money of numerous NiBs and resell for less each time, obviously.
Taking a further hit with a playfield issue would affect me directly.

So thanks for trying to discount my opinion.

The truth is, it’s not about any of our opinions. Warranties are very clear. What’s covered is very clear.
What you are expecting is not covered by warranty. Feelings aren’t relevant.

#2000 80 days ago
Quoted from V4Vendetta:

Yea that's how I read it. That's the only way I can read it if you've read all the comments you been making before. I don't understand how you can keep defending this shit and can't comprehend that when people pay $6-10 grand of their hard working money, they expect a item of assured quality. I mean really is it that hard to see why people are so upset? And here you are, haven't even bought one of these POS playfield games and acting like a captain savoStern. GTFO.

What I’ve said all along is that it’s on the buyer to understand the terms of agreement before buying a game.
If Stern was playing by their own rules, they’d tell all the owners with pooling and chipping to pound sand.
(We know that would cost them customers, but that’s not the point right now)
They are working on issues “on a case by case basis” apparently. I hope that means that EVERYONE (pooling or chipping) gets a new play field -but if Stern determines that pooling doesn’t affect gameplay, and if they believe that it won’t always lead to chipping, it’s their right to refuse returns. As a buyer, you should know that before putting your money down.

I’m not telling anyone that they should like this state that we’re in. I’m just pointing out the other side to this.
When Stern has so carefully pointed out that playfields are not all covered by warranty and you get one that’s minorly imperfect, and you start screaming bloody murder... it’s a little naive.

It Would be great to better understand what Stern will and won’t replace before buying.
Maybe that’s something that could be asked at Expo, or the next show.

#2005 80 days ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

Naïve is when someone who doesn't even own a damaged game presumes to understand the reasoning of the people affected.

This topic isn’t exclusive to people who already have play fields that they are unhappy with.
It will continue to affect all of us who are potential future buyers.
It’s important for all of us to understand what we’re getting into.
In fact, it’s probably even more important for potential buyers than current owners.

#2016 80 days ago
Quoted from Utesichiban:

If it is true Stern is now saying playfields arent covered by their warranty, it is a huge red flag. What that says is they've realized they can't figure out how to make a reliable playfield but want to keep churning out games and profits regardless of what happens and what it looks like both before and after it ships.
I honestly cannot understand what the powers that be at Stern are thinking. They are destroying their company brand and integrity by writing a warranty like that and continuing to churn out problem games.
It is a golden opportunity forc a company like CGC to make a move on Stern and start making solidly built non-remake games of their own.

I’m hoping that it was included so that Stern could tell some people like KPG to pound sand until they are ready to make the replacement/return, instead of having a return forced down their throat like it was. Their returns are not typically as fast as we would like to see -which I understand, but others have different opinions. (Which is fine too)
And I’m hoping that they will continue to protect all buyers under their “case by case” basis definition.
Regardless of your stance on the subject, it will absolutely cause them to lose some sales in the future if they stick to the exact wording in that warranty, as written currently.
Ideally, we will be provided with some kind of explanation as to how they decide who is, and who isn’t covered under this “case by case” basis.
If pooling is deemed by them to be acceptable, it might be a non-issue for most.
If chipping is deemed acceptable, I’ll bet many home buyers will chose not to take the risk.
The not knowing what is, and what is not deemed as “returnable” is the most frustrating aspect of all this, in my opinion.

#2049 79 days ago
Quoted from J85M:

At this point people need their heads testing if they are not cancelling orders.
I wanted a JPLE big time dream theme for my house, called my distributor to get a price, was ready with the money and then I saw the playfield issues the next day, never called him back, no way I’m dropping £10k (nearly 13k USD) on a pin with art that much just rub off.

You ought to relax, seriously.
That playfield is messed up for sure, and I posted support in the LE thread that he should escalate to Stern and expect them to back him up, 100% (just so you know where I'm coming from) -but as I posted there, that looks like a screw ripped through the wet clear and artwork while in the factory.
Owner confirmed that the peeled paint is covered in clear, so unless you know better, I'd say it's not as you described, "paint just flaking off".

I think it's really important to figure out what caused that "tear" in the artwork. If you are somehow correct, then yes, all bets are off and maybe it's best for everyone to wait this out.
But if you're all fired up and yelling "fire!, fire!" when it's just a one-off caused by a sharp screw in the apron that tore through the clear and art at installation, then that's a one-off, and likely not an issue that should frighten potential buyers.

I posted in the other thread that if anyone with a JPLE wants to remove the apron, to see if a screw is located anywhere near there, that might support my theory.

I think the benefit of a place like Pinside is when you have owners helping other owners, not raising pitchforks without much information.

Any other opinions on the cause of that "tear" is welcome, of course!

#2086 79 days ago
Quoted from J85M:

Maybe your in denial, I’m not quite sure what to think of all your “there’s nothing to see here” posts. But the reality is there are quality issues with Sterns playfields, it doesn’t matter what caused that scratch the art has lifted cleanly off the wood, there doesn’t appear to be a gouge or scratch in the wood itself hawkmoon77 can likely confirm that 100% but with no damage to the wood the art has practically rubbed off the playfield.
I have accidentally scratched playfields in the past installing and removing things and it’s left a scratch, the art hasn’t rolled up and bunched up. I know a lot of your posts are overly pro Stern but would you buy any other product or item knowing there are defects in production? And I’m by no means a Stern basher all my Sterns have been NIB, but I’m not going to bury my head in the sand and buy blind.

Whatever you say Buddy. You’re “not a Stern basher”?
Then why were you so quick to post that all of these things are time bombs, and that the paint is flaking (Which doesn’t appear to be the case) IMMEDIATELY after seeing those pics, without any real information?
I can appreciate that I have an unpopular opinion, and will get downvoted, but you went so far as to downvote my deleted post AFTER I deleted it. You’re so angry, you’re not being objective anymore.
You label me “Pro Stern”, yet all I’ve said is that buyers expecting collector quality playfields have themselves to blame ever since Stern states that play fields are no longer warrantied. That’s not pro-Stern buddy, that’s just recognizing their offering and stating it publicly.
You upvote these idiots who are so quick to jump on the “down with Stern” comments. You guys really do make this the least pinball-friendly site in existence.
I’m all for hawkmoon sharing his pics and relaying his dealings with Stern. It’s good for everyone to know what to expect if they have a similar situation. But what you and many others are doing is more along the lines of slander.
Seriously. Take a stroll over to the JPLE thread. With (I think) 2 exceptions: hawkmoon and a guy with some scratches on his playfield, everyone seems to be whoopin it up, having a blast with their new games.
And yet you and the rest of the Pinball-Pity-Party-Patrol are in here, telling everyone not to buy new machines cause they’re all defective.
Unfortunately, there are about 20 Pinsiders who share your view and they’re in here downvoting anyone like myself, constantly.
Fortunately, their opinions really don’t matter cause the rest of Pinside is enjoying their games (be it JJP, Stern, Bally, whatever).
I have issues and complaints with Stern. Personally I think that someone over there needs to design a much better auto-launch mech. I’m also annoyed that when I bought my ACDC, it was about 50% less than what I’m paying for a premium, currently. The difference between people like you and people like me is, I understand that currency has a part in that, and that my country charges taxes on the value AFTER currency, AND that Stern has the right to charge whatever the market is willing to pay! In short, I’m not in here screaming bloody murder like a four year old who dropped his cookie, because I try to take the time to understand both sides instead of just “me, me, me”.

There’s nothing wrong with sitting out for a bit and waiting for fewer reports of playfield issues. There appear to be far more than usual on the recent Jurassic Park Pro models. It sucks. There’s no arguing that.
But the ratio of LEs that appear to be fine also deserve to be mentioned. It appears to be back to “normal”.
Then yesterday we see a game with some kinda weird tear/scratch in it, and the Pinball-Pity-Party-Patrol sounds the sirens, with one member saying something as stupid as “Stern had three tries and flunked them all” -because he’s found 3 people with issues! (Not to mention your comments about how you just KNOW that because you can’t see a scratch in the wood, that this is an ongoing, serious issue.)

All of you PPPP members need to shake your heads and try to see things objectively. Not from the “pro Stern” stance -but not from the usual: “1 guy had a problem... let’s all post numerous memes about how bad Sterns QC is! DOWN WITH STERN! DOWN WITH STERN!”

Seriously. As I’ve always said, the sharing of ACCURATE information is the tool, that could make Pinside a great place.
The spreading of rumours/accusations, founded on little/no information, prevents this from being a great place.

Warranties are easy to figure out. Read it before you buy a game. Have realistic expectations before laying down your money is pretty much what I’ve said all along.

FYI: last night I decided to go in 50/50 with a buddy for a JPLE. So yeah, I have “skin in the game”.

Final suggestion: if you want to hate on me, just downvote my post(s). If you reply to this and call me out, I’ll likely reply again and again, dragging this on. I’ve said more than enough already and way more than I intended, when I came in here to show how silly some people are for slandering Stern.

#2154 77 days ago
Quoted from Darkwing:

So you are a self-described Stern Justice Warrior (SJW)? That’s quite an acronym there!

I was aiming for something in the middle, (more neutral) since I also spend thousands of dollars on new games, but I'll take that description if the only other options is "a pitchfork carrying member of the Pinball Pity-Party Patrol".

God forbid anyone on Pinside would view Stern from anything less-than the absolute most negative point of view:

"Stern sent you a bottle of clearcoat? That MUST mean that it's their final resolution, and they don't care about you. There's NO WAY that the issue might also be travelling up to the second support tier for review." (Let's not clarify, just assume. It fits our agenda)

"a JPLE, recently unboxed, is using the old artwork under the slings again? That MUST mean that Stern has used the old defective playfields and everything will fall apart. There's NO WAY that they've fixed anything. I know you didn't see any issues, but I maintain my negativity by declaring that issues WILL CERTAINLY arise in the future."

Question: how many Pinsiders does it take to change a playfield?
Answer: 21. 1 to contact Stern and make the swap. 20 more to complain about it online.

(Flamesuit on)

#2213 72 days ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Yep...spot on....I wouldn't be surprised if someone doesn't hold Sterns feet to the fire....they should be held accountable

Has Stern refused any returns? (Honest question)
Curious to know if anyone has been refused a return and if so, what condition their playfield was in.
It’s my impression that they are replacing these defects, despite not being listed in the warranty.
Interested in hearing if that’s not accurate.

#2222 72 days ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

really? so Stern has started replacing JP play fields? I haven't heard that

I specifically asked if anyone had been REFUSED.
Still waiting is not the same as refused.

#2224 72 days ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

I'm more interested in action....to date there has been ZERO....maybe that will change, but I doubt it....

Stern also took quite a while to swap ghostbusters playfields but in the end, I think they got them all.

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