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Stern, 2017You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider NeilMcRae.
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the scary thing about this is Stern made GOTG and IMDN over a year ago, yet munsters shows the problem. What ever quality management is going on its just not good enough. I have huge respect for Stern a they replaced my GB playfield here in the UK. That must have been expensive so I would be all over playfield quality given its impact when you get it wrong.
Quoted from o-din:I love the already two thumbs down on this post like I'm not stating fact and that I'm making it up.
I would have liked to have watched either of you try to do it.
must be a faulty pin as I've worked on WNBJM a few times and not had to do that. In my view the latches are far superior.
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:People keep bringing up the warranty as if it has anything to do with this problem or its resolution.
Why?
A warranty is a specific thing, it's printed at the back of most of the Stern manuals I've read, and it has absolutely nothing to do with this issue. Any fix they offer is not part of their warranty.[quoted image]
thank god I live in a country that doesn't let them get away with that. For a £10,000 that warranty is shocking.
Quoted from epthegeek:Seriously need to change the trend of calling it ‘pooling’, it didn’t flow anywhere. Wrinkling is more apt. Or bunching, even. Calling it pooling gives a misleading impression of what’s actually happening.
indeed.
Quoted from mnpinball:Jurassic Park I played yesterday, the clear and art was lifting like a bubble on the metal ball guide contacting the playfield I imagine because of side to side play from the upper flipper shot.
If these things are showing issues within 15 days of manufacturing/release I can’t even imagine what it’s gonna look like in a years time.
If the art is lifting with the clear it seems obvious that the ink is not adhering properly to the wood playfield it needs to bite in better.
[quoted image][quoted image]
this is what I was concerned with. Folks thinking this is just an issue around the posts when is going to affect the game all over the playfield. thanks for sharing.
Quoted from Rondogg:For every person posting on here I'd guess there are 5 lurking with a problem and not posting. For every person lurking there are probably 10+ who have no idea they already have a problem.
I've been reading this thread all week thinking I didn't have any issues, then I took a closer look...yep.
Sorry to hear that Ron - again though its one of my frustrations. None of the manufacturers will issue specific details about when problems started and when they feel they are resolved - so loads of folks don't act until its too late. has JJP sent an email out to all Wonka owners? no - they just hope that you heard something on a podcast with 12 listeners and a dog.
Neil.
my engine has blown up in my car. BMW dropped a new engine off and I'm doing the swap myself.
Are you guys serious? A replacement playfield on its own is +nowhere+ NEAR an acceptable solution to this. Please please please for the love of god stop saying it is.
Cheers,
Neil.
Quoted from Talon2000:I haven't had a chance to completely look over the PF but from what I have seen so far the holes that need resessing are milled after the clear. I've done probably 20 PF swaps and IM looks easier than TAF. Mylared areas came with. Incase you are wondering yes I paid full replacement price.[quoted image]
why did you get another playfield already?
Quoted from Pinballer67:yep, as a retailer (who works in a different field than pinball), having 0% of the responsibility for manufacturing the defect and 100% of the legal liability...happy I don't conduct business in the UK. Sounds fucked up to me.
any sensible trader backs that liability off when they contract to be retailer for their product... Its not rocket science! This law is across all of Europe.
Neil.
Quoted from Sako-TRG:Consumer law different in UK
When we purchase a NIB pin we are covered for 2 years through our retailer / distributor. Our contract is with them, we don’t get into discussions with the manufacturer direct.
Unfortunately the retailer may end up with the rough end of the deal if the manufacturer- in this case Stern or JJP don’t do the right thing.
Which is why retailers here are rightly so getting a bit nervous over this whole issue.
actually it's better than that. The sales of goods act in the UK covers you for ++SIX++ years. If you can demonstrate that the product had a defect then the retailer needs to tackle it. Stern made my day with the service bulletins on faulty node boards as they admitted there was a fault with them so I'm totally unworried about node board failures!
Neil.
Quoted from Pinballer67:Not over here. Manufacturer has the ultimate liability, as the party who manufactured the good being sold.
A retailer or distributor has reasonable cause to expect that the product they are selling is devoid of defect. The onus is not on a retailer to vet every product they sell to determine if it is defective or dangerous.
Customer who paid retailer obtains money back from retailer, first line of defence. But the retailer is entitled to make a claim against the manufacturer. Unless it is a high volume product recall, the legal costs would not justify any legal action against the manufacturer if the manufacturer didn't refund the retailer via "good will".
In a worst case scenario and there is a product recall, the manufacturer is liable 100%. Retailers in North America are the front line and must refund customers but they do not assume legal responsibility for the quality or safety of products they are selling.
yeah I feel for you guys over there! 
Quoted from AUKraut:Is it just me, or are the JP2 LEs taking a LONG time to ship compared to previous Stern releases, as if they are being held up for some reason? Heck, even the code release yesterday was PRO only, which confirms that no LEs haven't shipped....
Interestingly that comment came up at the (excellent) launch party at Sunshine. A lot of folks said it was unusual for sunshine to have the launch party and not have the LE. Although in saying that I was at the launch party black knight and that was a pro also.
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:Please share your evidence that the issues are related to the amount of money spent.
Several have claimed this, none have shown evidence. Repeating it doesn't make it any more true but reading the same unsubstantiated claim a dozen times makes it more likely you'll believe it. Much of the social influencer/misinformation industry is based on it.
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:Please share your evidence that the issues are related to the amount of money spent.
Several have claimed this, none have shown evidence. Repeating it doesn't make it any more true but reading the same unsubstantiated claim a dozen times makes it more likely you'll believe it. Much of the social influencer/misinformation industry is based on it.
Not sure its related to the pooling chipping issue. But the CPR thread goes into detail about how stern have saved money on the wood that the poster believe was related to the increased cratering issues.
Neil.
Quoted from iceman44:Who is gonna organize the attack on Stern at expo and demand answers from them on the spot? Or will it be the usual ass kissing contest?
Need to hammer away like this thread until they cave!
Tie yourselves together in a human blockade and block off the exits until we get some info!
I think we should be constructive and ask the question constructively and positively rather than the pinside torch and fork brigade.
"We notice some ongoing questions with playfield curing, what can you tell us about it? and what help can pinheads give you to solve the problem and what can pinheads do to look after their games to the best effect?"
I want to get a response from Stern knowing that they won't want to admit a problem exists, if we put them on the spot we will get nothing and that would be frustrating so lets be smart about it.
Cheers,
Neil.
Quoted from Midway-Man:This has now been mentioned a few times. The clear coat isn’t the issue with this whole pooling situation. Since the paint does stick to the clear coat wich does eventually crack lose. It’s a paint issue. The paint does come of the wood wich shouldn’t happen.
Stern has had clear coat issues back in 2016 when GB was released. But this issue has been mostly addressed. The issue we have now is a different story.
I don't think the evidence supports your theory.
Quoted from PanzerFreak:"Well, there are no widespread playfield issues. We've only had 6-8 reports of playfield problems. Don't hesitate to buy a Stern game. If you have a problem contact your distributor".
Could be word for word lol.
I would just flat out ask them "What is the cause of playfield clear pooling and chipping on recent Stern games"?
Quoted from Whysnow:I like your attitude. Unfortunately, when many people are rightfully pissed about being sold a knowingly defective product, it is sometimes hard to bottle that emotion. Esp if you have to deal with the smugness that Stern can often come off with towards their paying customer base.
At a certain point, you have to remember that we are the customers and nice goes out the window.
Sometimes it is important to back a manufacturer into an uncomfortable spotlight.
Do you think Stern don't know that we are concerned or pissed off? I think they do. Otherwise turning around a new play field design for JP in a matter of weeks wouldn't have happened.
It would be a shame to turn a session into a moan and vent session rather than a positive session that helps all pinheads in the medium term.
Quoted from Whysnow:I think the real reason that Stern and JJP need to not only fix this issue but make a public statement about it is for their own bottom line.
I think you'll be waiting a long time for this. I don't ever recall seeing a public statement about the Ghostbusters ghosting.
Quoted from pinballaddicted:The evidence definitely supports his theory.
The artwork is not adhering to the wood. The soft clear is sprayed over the top. The clear is definitely adhering to the artwork. Anywhere there is pressure on the playfield (posts, lane guides, aprons etc,etc) the artwork underneath is bunching and taking the clear with it. Once the clear has reached it max point of stretching it will chip out.
Easy explanation.
From my POV that's a side effect of the clear not being what it once was. Not the root cause but not sure we will ever know for sure.
Quoted from JohnnyPinball007:2 or 3 years ago I called Stern about a rivet in the lock down bar breaking and the handle was just hanging. They told me to email a picture. The next afternoon they were calling me on the phone apologizing and offering to not only send the part but to also pay someone to install it.
Has anyone had decent luck with Stern like this? Do they still tend to other issues and only drag their feet with the clear coat issues or do drag their feet with all problems now?
the clear coat issue is massive though. It's seems its not as new an issue as we think with games well over a year old suffering from this problem. So replacing maybe more than 50% of play fields made in the last year? Doesn't feel likely.
I have huge respect for Stern and they have always looked after me, although I do sigh at some of their cost cutting measures, but I think Stern are more likely to avoid dealing with this issue as a populated play field replacement. Stern replaced my GB playfield.
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:It's important on games that have a problem but until someone gathers the data and shares it we don't know how widespread the issues are.
I think the closest guess you could make would be pick games that had known production runs like the LE versions. Even then you probably couldn't inspect more than 10% of them. Put the data in a spreadsheet and see if any trends emerge.
in my view this issue is hugely widespread. 4 continents are reporting it; nearly every JP2 I've seen has the problem.
agree on getting the data but not expecting to see that...
Quoted from PtownPin:Stern doesn't really care about pooling or a little chipping....its their new normal...they figure they'll wait long enough and enough owners will get frustrated and sell off their machine at a loss.
its only the new normal if we accept it.
Quoted from hawkmoon77:A few things actually. Some minor stuff like the helicopter blades were hitting the ramp and they asked me to bend it, and a side wall was overtightened, causing it to bend and leave an indent into the playfield.
They also forgot to install some parts, paint is chipping/peeling below the flipper, and they used the wrong color insert in a pretty important place (which basically mismarks an important part of the ruleset).
can't imagine why Stern haven't sent you a courier to pick this game up and drop a new properly made one! It's a shit show.
Quoted from JohnnyPinball007:Welcome to the arena, in what should be a awesome bout between 2 lawyers this is sure to get interesting.
In one corner we have GamerRick, and in the other corner we have iceman44.
ding, ding...ok, the bell has rung now and we will read a awesome show of wits.And I really hope you guys don't get mad at me and I hope I do not get moderated for something. I don't feel real good myself right now, and I am just trying to have some laughs to help with my pains.
it will stop when they realise there is no one to bill the hours to! 
Quoted from Talon2000:Few hundred more plays and it just get's worse. Still no word from Stern, phone calls and emails. Still waiting.[quoted image][quoted image]
that's what I call the game shits itself. not good - not good.
Quoted from Vinnie:I wanted to post a followup as I heard back from my distributor last week regarding my Iron Maiden chipping/pooling. Stern has offered to send me a non-populated playfield free of charge and I have accepted the offer. I know for some this would not be satisfactory but for me I feel it is a fair solution. I have not received the new playfield yet and was told 4-8 weeks before it ships. So I'm figuring a couple months give or take. Just for reference it took Stern about 4 weeks to provide a response to my distributor on the initial report of chipping. As long as I receive the playfield I will be happy and feel like Stern did the right thing standing behind their product. My machine was still within the 30 day return policy my distributor offers so I'm not sure if that had any influence on the decision or not. I'll post another update once I receive the replacement playfield.
mental mate, you've literally been robbed - that won't stop- it will get worse and worse, then the ball will catch on it and make the game play terrible. I'd return it and do it ASAP.
I spoke to someone at Stern about during the tour privately because there was no point raising it at the seminars. The reply I got. They know about it, they are seriously pissed off about it, they believe they have fixed it. They are watching closely.
Neil
So stern where also using Chicago Gaming (Churchill for play fields and cabinets. IIRC Fun where the guys who had the issues with ghosting.
https://www.pinballnews.com/site/2019/11/20/inside-chicago-gaming/
https://www.pinballnews.com/site/2016/11/04/churchill-cabinet-company-tour/
You'll see alot of pictures of stern stuff there...
Quoted from wesman:I have many reasons to not be a JJP fanboy, but I feel the quality present is higher than any other brand. I mean quality as in ideal, defect free, and even at best, all of these brands seem to have dimpling issues, which is unacceptable.
I couldn't disagree more. The highest quality manufacturer is CGC by a country mile. My MMR, AFMR and MBR have been bulletproof. Yes they had a couple of issues but in my view they responded really well to them (AFMR launch and the SOL 2 chip). Code updates on MBR for sound quality etc.
Quoted from Extraballz:Stern better figure out a way to replace all the customers they are losing lately. They will feel the pain at some point. This is just slow creep. People are figuring it out that Stern machines are not worth buying. The army is shrinking.......
who are these customers and people ?
Quoted from koops:Ready for some “extreme dimpling?”
Played this guy today. Ball kept getting stuck and when I checked I initially though it was the ramp flap. It wasn’t even touching it rather resting in the valley.
RIP clear coat.
[quoted image][quoted image]
lift the mylar and it will be fine, atleast was on mine. Stern have a thick faux metal sticker that you can get from them as a service upgrade (my dealer sent me two for both my games).
Neil.
Quoted from Who-Dey:The dimpling doesn’t bother me any but pooling and chipping certainly does. As far as my two playfields go, i know that i am probably not going to be satisfied with their resolution but to be almost completely ignored for 8 months pisses me off. I think I will give Pablo a call tomorrow since I haven’t heard anything back from Stern.
have to say it's really disappointing that Stern haven't got back to you. When I've had issues they have been responsive. Might be worth an email to Patrick Power.
Neil.
Quoted from branlon8:that’s not quite true - typical automotive series 2K low bake clearcoat (like what’s put on bumpers or mirror caps) is considered cured 72 hours after baking. I do not know, however, what kind of clear is being applied to pins, but I would guess it’s similiar in it’s chemistry - unless UV curing clears are used - which would actually make a lot of sense and then you would be spot on.
yes it could be as you note it depends what you use - the 2K stuff that I've used at 20C was done in 12 hours, and if baked 30 minutes, can't see them baking wood though! I remember the pinball news article that showed play fields on racks curing at CGC. I had assumed UV though and I wonder if that's the change that has made play fields problematic?
Quoted from Who-Dey:Stern games not JJP. All Stern did was bandaid the problem by taking the artwork out from under the posts. Put that artwork back under there and the problem would still exist.
on my JP2 and Elvira, the clear is totally different from BK:SOR or other games, seems thinner. Yes its the artwork is missing from some areas but its not the only change.
Quoted from guitarded:Be nice of Stern to admit they had a major problem and exactly when they soved it, wouldn't it?
I won't touch a NIB Stern until they do and identify the backstock that is affected.
none of the pinball vendors have done this but I agree that it's needed. I doubt we will get it.
I think its a combination of changes rather than one thing. But ultimately the critical problem isn't wood or clear or chemicals - its the lack of maturity in this industry.
Some changes are related to cost, some related to regulations. What's clear (hoho) is that if the pinball companies would invest in more R&D and working out a proper solution or aligning as an industry on what is acceptable or not; it would save them money and drive more customer satisfaction across the market - pinball is too busy fighting for market share in a tiny market rather than figuring out how they collectively grow the market. I despair of the short sightedness of the pinball industries' attitude on this, which appears to be focused on who's fault is it in the supply chain rather than getting the supply chain together to fix it, so Stern working with JJP and Spooky and CGC and AP and all of their suppliers. It helps none of them that this problem exists. Pinball companies could agree to a set of playfield standards, then use those to build games, I think most people would pay $50 more to know they get a playfield with no issues. I certainly would.
An issue like this in any other manufacturing area would drive immediate response, if my industry behaved like this we'd be out of business or hauled in front of the government and told to fix it. Since I got back into pinball 4 years ago its been a constant drag on all of our enjoyment and if I may be so bold, I plead to all the pinball manufacturers - what you are doing isn't working for us, please work together to resolve this for the good of the industry.
Neil.
Quoted from o-din:Yes, it's super fun watching playfields on brand new pinball machines deteriorate, and the owners getting no response from those that made them.
So fun, I'm sure we all hope this never ends.
Ode to Odin - the upbeat heart of Pinside !
Quoted from chuckwurt:If spooky, AP and JJP made 75 games a week would their playfields be the same? I hope we can find out one day.
Spooky and JJP have all the same issues that Stern has now, Spooky got on top of the worst of it (chipping) quickly. But JJP - I had a Wonka on loan and it had chipping all over the place, My Dialed in has dimpling also.
We have a Alice Cooper and Iron Maiden in our pinball club, the IMDN gets a hell lot more play as its significantly more reliable (lots of trough and other issues with ACNC) but the play field of IMDN looks substantially better than ACNC, both have dimpling. Note I'm not complaining either, its simply a fact of pinball ownership.
Quoted from chuckwurt:You have to get the zoom lense just like others are doing for TMNT. Take a good cell phone pic and zoom in. It’s easy when you do that. It’s very grainy on most of them. And maybe they had multiple vendors then too and you’re a lucky one.
my LOTR has it.
Quoted from PanzerFreak:It could be any of those things. Stern uses multiple vendors for playfields which in my opinion increases the risk of quality issues and is why we see one customer receive a game with a perfect playfield while another has issues. There's also been speculation that playfields made in the summer can have more issues due to high humidity levels in factories that lack AC.
using multiple vendors reduces the probability though. If Stern aren't managing their vendors right, only having one increases the risk as much as having two. I'd prefer if they had 2/3 suppliers, that way if the supply doesn't meet the grade they can switch over to an alternative without stopping the plant.
I can't help but think that a company might be inclined to use what they have perhaps knowing it wasn't perfect to keep the expensive to run factory moving...
Since the pooling issues I've been fortunate that the change stern made to flatten the clear seems to be working so far. I've bought 5 stern titles in the last year and none of them have had a playfield problem (touches wood).
Quoted from fnosm:They just showed Mirco doing a hammer test (hammer flat and hammer point) on the PinballExpo20 video feed.
Very impressive. If someone has that video they should post it here. I think Mirco/JJP may have this problem licked.
a handy test! because all my games have hammers banging the playfield multi ball!
I want to see a test rig that has thousands of pinballs being fired at a populated playfield constantly for days/weeks on end.
Quoted from Concretehardt:So the washer makes it worse :-/
indeed and this is why I wanted to understand more about the problem on my TNA - what is clear is that when the clear coat starts to fail, it continues to fail. Much like when paint chips on car the surrounding paint starts to go. The pinball industry needs to solve this and solve it quickly.
Quoted from romulusx:Let’s sum up this thread
1.JJP has addressed playfield issues
2.Stern has not
3.zaphx is a good dude
so everyone with a fucked JJP playfield has been made good?
Someone else posted that there are not many. I disagree with that based on the number that have come to the UK and were fucked.
I have bought 11 Stern Spike 2 games. None of them have had pooling or playfield issues, My GB had ghosting Stern replaced it with a populated playfield. Not to say that these issues don't exist but you might argue that given stern consistently outsell JJP that you will see more reports.
As a NIB buyer this shit does piss me off. Instead of enjoying a new game experience I'm trying to figure out if I need to box it back up and send it back. I've got a GNR LE on the way that I think will be fucked out the box based on the others reporting it although its been stuck in storage for 3 months.
Neil.
Quoted from Colehvac1:I know of myself and 2 others that have not been made good. Its the same story the a meeting has to be had with upper management, ive been waiting almost 2 months for that meeting to happen, ive been told to be patient they are working on this for me, whatever that means. And i only want a populated playfield, i paid up this game is never getting sold so an unpopulated playfield means nothing, unless they are sending it and 3k to pay me to do the swap.
JJP?
Neil.
Quoted from PanzerFreak:One way to help reduce the chance of your game having playfield or other manufacturing issues is to wait 6 months from when the first batch of games are shipped. Early manufacturing issues are often caught in the initial production runs and later corrected. At these prices getting a game early isn't worth the headaches of dealing with issues in my opinion.
I've read multiple reports about GNR CE's and LE's with pooling / chipping and almost all are from December 2020 or January 2021. We now know that games from around that time did not come with washers installed at the JJP factory. Reports of pooling / chipping seem to drop heavily after that. However, I did read one report of an owner with an April 2021 build that had pooling at a post in the upper playfield area (no washer installed) despite the game having factory washers installed in other areas.
this is absolutely not the case. Its a lottery no matter when you order your game. We've seen games be ok then be terrible in later runs (BK:SOR springs to mind as does IMDN).
Although since then Stern have sorted the pooling/chipping out.
Quoted from Jvspin:Guess I wasn't clear, I agree that JJP has to back every component they ship to a customer, according to their warranty, but I don't think it's their job to solve the problems their suppliers are having. Sure, it's in JJP's best interest to do all they can to help their suppliers if they can.
Mirco has a large business outside of JJP. Seems like their non JJP playfields should have similar problems.
they do.
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