If this is a case of the new clears curing more slowly, is there any way to make them cure fully once they are set up in your home?

Maybe leave the game on 24x7 to keep the internal temperature up? Open the game and blow a fan indirectly over it? Put it out in a hot garage in Florida? Blow a space heater under the game?

Yes and no. If there is some way to complete the curing process quickly and completely, maybe the damage will be not get worse. People have reported that the clear seems to be still soft.

Any word on the new run of GoT that Stern just did?

No chipping here, but my BKSOR LE has some of the pooling of clear around the posts. Shows up as a ripple around the posts. Not bad compared to the Wonka, JJPPOTC and JP2 games as I've seen posted and it is only on a handful of post and not on others. The left slings have no issues but the right sling has the worst pooling. Go figure. See picture below. I've contacted my distributor and sent a bunch of detailed pictures. Basically the clear has not fully cured. It's soft. I went ahead and put clear washers underneath the two worst of the posts at the right sling. The clear is definitely soft there. Just putting a clear washer under helped to flatten the clear. This stuff should be hard as hell at this point, so there is something wrong with the curing for sure.
20190826_181344 (resized).jpg20190826_182005 (resized).jpg20190826_182311 (resized).jpg

Not sure why you are splitting hairs here, but this is not fully cured. If it was fully cured it would have memory and spring back after you push it flat with the washer. Sure it is softer than we are used to but it is also not fully cured - at least in the spots where it is pooled and thicker. The areas on the SAME PLAYFIELD that are have thinner clear (not pooled) are hard enough that the clear is not dented when you remove the posts. The thicker areas are soft and dented. Unless the formula of the clear somehow changed for two posts that are 4 inches apart, the problem definitely has something to do with curing of thicker material. Whether the chemical reaction is done or not, it is not cured...

Not going to argue with you except to say you are wrong on all points. My points all came from the careful observation of the game sitting right in front of me.

Would be nice to know what is going on behind the scenes. With the playfields being bought by outside suppliers rather than being made and clearcoated in house, this problem really should be made right by the playfield suppliers themselves. If the playfields do not meet the specifications put forth by JJP when they purchased them, then there is certainly a case. Would be interesting to know if Mirco or whoever made and clearcoated these defective playfields agreed to supply replacement playfields and JJP is simply handing them out?

I was going to start buy more EMs, because of all of this cost cutting talk on NIBs. But then I remembered those cheap SOBs at Gottlieb switched from chromed metal posts to cheap white plastic posts in the mid-60s. Good thing Pinside wasn't around then. The nerve of them.

With them switching to water based clear, this is more of a QE failure than a QA issue. QE needs to fix this and create new QA processes to detect issues before the playfields are populated.

This does kind of remind me of the RoHS cluster F that happened 15 years ago. The new environmentally friendly lead free solder promised to be just as good as the old stuff, but soon every new TV or stereo I bought was failing within a year or two. Previously TVs and receivers were reliable as hell for many years. I bought a Sony AVR in 2004 along with a 32 inch TV. Both of them were nothing but trouble. Every time something would fail, I'd open it up and flow some leaded solder onto components until it started working again. One thing for sure, Sony never had a mea culpa or gave me new boards to replace the failed boards. ASUS never gave me new motherboards to replace the ones with bad capacitors either. Eventually RoHS worked out fine, but initially it sure filled a lot of landfills with electronics. I suspect that playfield manufacturers are scrambling right now to find what works and purge supplies of the clear that doesn't work.

Personally I would be happy with Stern selling me a new playfield at their cost because all I have is pooling and it is not bad at all. They should send corrected playfields for free in more extreme cases that include cracking.

I posted this in the JP2 thread, but thought it might help some people here:

Whenever I buy a new Stern that has a metal apron, first thing I do is take the apron out and put a layer of mylar under it. When I put it back in, I try not to over tighten. Recently I got a 3D printer and decided to go the extra mile to protect my BKLE by making small u-channels to snap on the bottom of the apron where it meets the playfield. That was before all this clear coat stuff came up, so I'm glad I did. If you want the file to print yourself shoot me a PM. Otherwise I suppose I could make a run or two if there is demand...

Apron trim (resized).png

cabfdff4cc8b8971b7aefcae12245e63930f12a8 (resized).jpg

You tighten it from below with a nut. You can make it as tight or loose as you want. Spreading the force over a larger, flatter area will make it dig in less. Win win.

The worst dimpling I've ever seen was on an original AFM. Second most was on my original MM. Interestingly people seem to think these games didn't dimple and never had QC or design issues. AFM and MB both had drop holes that would get completely blown out in a matter of hundreds of games and came without protectors. The first MB I ever got had so much wood eaten away, I had to get an extra wide Cliffy protector to cover the damage. They also came with cabinet art that would fade in the course of one month in the wrong lighting. Not to mention that every single WPC game for the four year period prior to WPC 95 came with terribly designed power supply and reset circuit that basically was guaranteed to fail sooner than later. Then there were the burned GI connectors.

MB_before (resized).jpg

Aprons and lanes digging in have been a problem since before the recent clear coat issues. I make U-shaped channels for my metal Stern aprons on my 3-D printer to keep the playfields from getting cut. I also try to be very careful when tightening these items from under the playfield. Before making the channels, I used a clear plastic washer at each of the screws to hold the apron up a tad. I suppose the same type of solutions could be used on JJP and Stern playfields.

The manufacturers really need to address the design so the bottom edge of the guides or aprons are not sharp or they leave a very small gap so they don't actually contact the playfield except at the attach points.
Apron trim(1) (resized).jpg

You mean like they did with Wonka after all the issues with POTC playfields?

No it's both and mainly the clear that is the issue. The clear should be hard enough that it doesn't pool or stretch. Adhesion of the art is part of it, but a small part that just makes the situation worse.

Yeah its because there was no room under the playfield, but it is a good idea here even though it is a little ugly. But still would work.

So in theory this playfield sat for almost an extra year of curing...

Wow. I guess we define things differently, but to me a $9000+ game with tons of options including Invisiglass (which I would never put in a location machine), is a fine collectable. That said, pooling is not a big deal without chipping or art separation. With this policy though, JJP should extend the warranty on playfields an extra year or two in case the art separates and/or there is chipping down the road.

The one thing you seem to be forgetting is this is not happening because of making the playfields cheaper. Its happening because of the forced switch to water based clears from the very toxic clears used in the past for environmental and safety regulations. Otherwise they would have switched back two years ago and case closed. Even if you are a Stern basher, there is still JJP having issues with both Wonka and GNR after this issue first came about on POTC. Surely they would have fixed this if it was just a matter of price. What's an extra hundred or two on a $12,500 dollar game after all?

Funny how everyone has their theories and lots of anecdotal data on how one manufacturer or another has fixed this issue. Relative to Stern, the boutique manufacturers like Spooky's entire output are just small batches like a single-barrel scotch. I'm sure there are runs of Sterns and JJP games with no issues too which can also lead to false anecdotal conclusions. Talk is cheap for Mirco or anyone in the industry. This issue has not been solved until we stop seeing this problem on new games period. Hopefully someone comes up with the correct mixture and curing conditions for the new less toxic clears.

To me this obviously sucks, but hopefully will all be worth it because automotive 2-part clears are some of the most poisonous and hazardous chemicals on earth. Any chemical that requires full head to toe covering and a forced air respirator is not for me and I would rather not see it used in large quantities in manufacturing if at all possible.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjxhKeZi8vsAhWjpFkKHYFjAD8QFjAEegQIBBAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.paintdocs.com%2Fdocs%2FwebPDF.jsp%3FSITEID%3DAUTOESTORE%26doctype%3DSDS%26lang%3D2%26prodno%3DFH742&usg=AOvVaw08KZIwxdwYS8HQ-jyYIbEy

Sheesh.

Not sure how often it needs to be stated that the option to simply go back to the clear that was being used a couple of years ago does not exist. There is no choice here. I know there are tons of Stern haters, but it is amazing that people actually think JJP is doing this voluntarily too and cares so little about its customers. This may or may not have been a case where the industry was blindsided by new laws, but I'm sure they would have loved to be able to alpha and beta test new solutions for this very unique application. Maybe JJP and Stern should go back to what Bally and Williams were using on their games while experimenting with Diamondplate: nothing except maybe some mylar.

Actually those MB and AFM started blowing out the holes almost immediately and the games were dimpled to shit in no time. I remember an MB in 1999 with a blown out hole and it was basically a year old and the rest of the game looked clean aside from the dimples. It wasn't near as bad as the one above but it was worn past the black line in a significant arc. AFM was especially bad for dimpling because of the air balls. Some games the holes were much worse than others depending on the angle of the scoop and how fast the scoop welds broke in that particular game. A $5 piece of metal would have saved those holes from getting blown out. Kerry protectors and replacement scoops were very popular and I kept my local welding shop busy fixing broken welds and scoops every time I picked up a machine in the early 2000s. And talk to the operators from the 90s about out of box quality or the power driver boards that were born to fail, resets on a poorly designed CPU board and the burned up GI connectors. Maybe the cabinet ink that could literally go from red to white in two weeks of being near a window? How about the opto boards in the ball trough or the high voltage boards that all basically burned up and needed to be repaired or replaced? Yep, those 90s were the days.

I sold a perfectly red Safecracker to a friend many years ago and he put it near a window in his bedroom (after I left). I came back two weeks and in horror found the game needing a new decal on that side. Granted it was literally two feet from a single pane window with no UV block, but still...

I had a Houdini here on loan and it was the nicest factory playfield that I have seen on any pin. The playfield was made by Mirco (99% sure). The playfield was smooth as glass, just the right amount of clear, only very shallow dimpling after many plays and no pooling or issues around posts. I pulled a lot of things apart to install a full set of Cliffys and plastic protectors, so I saw underneath a lot of posts. I'm guessing this was made before the new water based clear coats.

Maybe they should get GM or Ford to do the clearcoating? They seem to do a good job!

Played today in a busy local location where the games get tons of play. I got a good look at all of the games, because it was an off hour on a Monday and not many people waiting to play. They have basically every new Stern, Rick and Morty along with GNR LE, WW and DI. All of the games had dimpling, with Rick and Morty having the least. GNR is the newest game, so the dimpling had not covered the whole playfield yet.

As for pooling and chipping:
An early run Iron Maiden was probably the worst because it had pooling along with art chipping around many posts.
Second worst was a gold Beatles with a ton of play that had pooling on a number of posts and very minor chipping on a couple.
Both Avengers IQ Premium and TMNT Pro had nice clear coats with no pooling.
Guns and Roses LE (October 2020 build date) had pooling on few posts. No chipping yet.
Early JP with tons of play minor pooling not bad at all though.
Stranger Things, Elvira 3, Deadpool, BKSoR and GOTG did not see any pooling or chipping.

A few side notes... I will say that my favorite game of the newest crop is a tie between Rick and Morty and the AIQ Premium. I love the theme on R&M, but the playfield and ramps on AIQ are a work of art. The shots on AIQ are like butter and innovative to say the least. I played a number of games and want one for home even though I am not a comic book guy. Another note was just how unimpressive GnR sounds when put next to even a Stern Pro. When JJP moved the boards from the cabinet to the back box for DI, they turned the mid range speakers facing up instead of towards the player as they were before. The result is tinny sound unless you shell out for the CE and get the sound bar up top. Not a GnR fan, but the game was fun to play and I liked the lighting strips on the sides of the playfield. On a whole, it was a less impressive than the fancy JJP promo videos and glamor shots from the release had me expecting. Not at all interested in owning one at this point.

30+ games. Temp check at the entrance. Must wear mask and there is plenty of hand sanitizer available.

I think they use a gas rather than a liquid chemical or fog. There should be no residue. We have a lot of termites in Florida and services that put your items in a shed to be gassed for a weekend to kill anything in them. I've had some old games gassed and saw no residue or signs at all. I also saw a lot of nice furniture and antiques when loading my games into the gas shed.

Pinball Lounge in Oviedo Bowling Center. Full liquor bar and food menu at your fingertips along with the bowling.

I can live with a little pooling, but even minor chipping like that is totally unacceptable. If it looks like that now, who knows what it will look like in a year? Or five years?

Looking at a heavily played Iron Maiden on location the other day I saw chipping around a lot of posts, but no it didn't spread out beyond where the pooling effect might have been previously. I would assume the jjp games are the same. But who knows?

Stern and jjp should be offering an option of blank replacement Playfield with no clearcoat at all on them. It's a win-win because they save money for not clearcoating and the customer gets to choose who and how it gets clearcoated by. I'd rather have a clearcoat done by Ron Kruzman or Captain Neo than even the best Factory clearcoat.

That's just poor mechanical design having a metal rail tightened against the clear. Bad and inexcusable as this is, I would not lump it in with the current Stern and JJP playfield issues from the digital art/new clear issue. There should be a factory washer, flange or something similar to hold the rail slightly raised. Looking at the nearby post, the clear is just fine; no pooling.

I think that is being a little extreme considering they have orders out until late spring at this point. Also, the average buyer has no clue what pooling is and probably wouldn't give a crap if you pointed it out. Even the chipping and art separation in most cases you have to remove a post just to see. Yeah this is a bad problem and after three games in a row, it is basically inexcusable. Still it is nothing that stops people from playing and enjoying the game in any way unless they let it bother them.

It is only natural here. The subject of this thread is "continued playfield problems" having to do with pooling/chipping. In the last month, most or all of the playfield problems being reported having to do with pooling/chipping around posts on NEW games appears to be with GnR, so that is the main fuel for this thread at this point. Pinside is like sharks when blood is in the water and saying nothing new is...nothing new. AIQ has an inexcusable issue with the rails cutting into the playfield, but I really have not heard of many instances of pooling/chipping on AIQ or TMNT for that matter the way it appears to be affecting GnR. I personally inspected an AIQ and TMNT not too long ago with no pooling at all and the same day saw a GnR LE with pooling. Anecdotal at best; I know. There are enough flames to go around in this thread with all the issues on JP and IMDN and other Sterns so don't get all ruffled when people focus on JJP in a negative way for a bit.

Not so fast there. Removing artwork from around the post doesn't stop pooling it just minimizes the chipping damage. The AIQs and TMNTs I have seen have no pooling (or chipping). So Stern have done the smart thing by removing the art from under posts and based on all the GnR issues, they also seem to be ahead of JJP on fixing the clearcoat formula issues. Stern does have to go back to pinball design 101 when it comes to the metal guides (and aprons) cutting into playfields.

I was just restoring a Black Hole from 1981 and interestingly about half of the posts have indents in the coat and chipping under the posts...

Actually there was a thin clear on BH and even on EMs. It was more of a varnish and not like a modern clear, but it was there and used for the same purpose - to protect the art.

So you quote my post just to repeat something that was already in my post? Must not have read past the part where I was talking about JJP to get to the Stern part huh?

Is it just me or do the Spooky plastics look washed out when they are lit underneath? I noticed that on both TNA and R&M. Its like the white layer is too thick or the colors just don't have enough pop to them.

Sheesh. I guess that means that you have noticed.

Thanks Steve. I guess it is just me. The playfields do look great in the Spooky games. The R&M at the Pinball Lounge looks great and it gets the heck played out of it.

Agreed. You should always put down protection on the shooter lanes before the first game is played. Cliffy, the molded plastic ones or even just get creative with some mylar. If I buy a 25 year old WPC game and it has a pristine shooter lane, I put on protection before playing the first game.

New systems always seem to have issues early on. SAM was a disaster in WPT. They ended up having to replace all of the WPT MPU boards with a redesign. Look at the horrendous node board issues on WOZ that went on for years. The early SPIKE games had inexcusable problems based on the fact the the whole idea of SPIKE is simplicity and reliability. Now that SPIKE has been around for a while it is rock solid and issues like on the early games are very rare. To me SPIKE 2 is the best system going right now and I have never had the slightest problem with SW, BKSOR the Beatles and other games through here on loan/temp trade. I do like the AP system too.

Automotive technology is the state of the art right now for reliability and that is what SPIKE is based on. They even use it on rockets these days. Just ask Elon Musk.

True. They should have made things right for the early SPIKE failures like they eventually did for SAM. I got a new MPU for my WPT to replace the defective SAM MPU many months after buying the game. Stern did make us wait with broken machines until after POTC came out and was a hit, then the went back and gave us new boards and eventually some really nice software updates. It was a really slow process though.

I would call them back and respectfully ask for a manager and make sure they have seen the pictures. That one really should be replaced with a populated playfield or the whole machine returned and replaced with another. A little pooling here or there is one thing. This will have major affect on the play and should not be tolerated.

Not sure how you came to this conclusion. I have not seen pooling issue on the last two or three Stern games posted in this thread. That is the main issue this thread was started for. No excuses for the one warped LZ pro a few pages back and that is worthy of a full populated playfield swap. On the other hand, where are all of the pictures of pooling on LZ? How about AIQ? I may have missed something but I have definitely seen more pictures of GnR pooling than I have AIQ or LZ (or TMNT for that matter). To me, both JJP and Stern have addressed the pooling issues and finally seem to be winning the battle.

That guy is garbage and full of shit. Not to mention he has an axe to grind and doesn't care about facts.

Got my LZLE today and it plays perfect out of the box. Clearcoat is also perfect. Nice and smooth, no pooling and no wood grain. Cabinet is a brick shithouse with plenty of corner supports and 3/4" birch plywood bottom. The new expression lighting blew us away. It's integrated into a channel in the side of the cabinet rather than hanging in the way and causing clutter. Mirrored backglass also looks amazing as does the factory invisible playfield glass.

All pinball systems have issues and especially when they first come out. Stern had to replace the defective MPU in basically every WPT when SAM first came out. Don't even get me started on the reseting issues, GI connectors and opto issues on the 90s Williams WPC games that persisted for years. Point is that SPIKE was no different and had some flaws in the early games for people to point at and harp on. On whole though the new Sterns are SPIKE 2 games are reliable. I have had a number of SPIKE 2 games pass through here and stay for a while and never had a single issue. I'm sure there are still issues here and there, but to me SPIKE is a reason TO buy instead of a reason NOT to buy.

This blow hard from Australia is no different than the people I hear talking about drug or vaccine side effects. You read the list "possible" side effects for Advil in the wrong context and you will never buy another medicine again.

Not to derail this thread, I will try to answer this question. The SPIKE system takes advantage of modern power supply technology to eliminate the old fashioned transformers, wiring and power supply boards found in older games (and some new games too) totaling about 50 pounds of useless weight all while increasing the reliability. Instead of having separate transformer taps for ac power to feed multiple separate power supplies to produce 5v, 12v, 20v, 50v and whatever other voltages are needed on the game, there is one simple power supply that takes in 120v a/c directly and produces 48volts DC. Each of the boards and node boards in the game uses that 48volts to produce whatever voltages they need on the board itself via a device called a dc-to-dc converter. This method is much more efficient, uses less power and therefore produces less heat. This eliminates a lot of wiring in the cabinet for the different voltages and thus eliminates a lot of failure points. This is the way electronics and control systems in general have gone, not just pinball machines.

There are a lot of benefits to a system like this including being able to use a commercial off the shelf power supply instead of a custom one. The SPIKE supplies are available at Digi-key for a little over $130. These are simple and reliable power supplies with only one problem: they have a one-speed fan that is very noisy when it comes on. Fortunately Stern chose a power supply with plenty of extra power, so it will run cool. It takes a long time to heat up, so the fan in the power supply doesn't come on for a very long time and when the thermostat finally does click the fan on (it only has one speed), it only stays on for a minute or so and shuts off again for a long while. This is direct proof that this power supply is not being run hard and will not fail early due to heat or being over driven. SPIKE has a 500 watt power supply and believe me this game never uses more than half of that.

Now compare my fact-based description of the power supply system and fan to the "expert opinion" in that video on the power supply and fan...

Need more? As stated above the only issue with the SPIKE 2 power supply is the noisy fan. Even though that fan barely runs because the game runs cool, it is still annoying as hell to people like me! For this reason there is an aftermarket cooling fan sold by Pinmonk which has sold many, many units over the years including to me. This product replaces the stock fan with a fan that is quieter and blows LESS air than the OEM fan. Even with a weaker fan, the fan hardly runs and the game still runs cool. See more description and actual factual research along with temperature readings here: https://pinmonk.com/collections/guardians-of-the-galaxy/products/spike-quiet-fan-plug-n-play-kit

Again, compare the above to the statements made by that blowhard about the SPIKE power supply. I could literally go point-by-point through this whole video, but I don't want to waste any more time on him. Honestly Youtube should take down that video.

Yes. That power supply is just supplying power to the PC board, playfield controller node board and all of the unique LED node boards that are in each JJP game. None of that surface mount stuff pulls a lot of power and there are no hard disks and massive CPUs and graphics cards in the PC. JJP is a little different in that they have a separate set of simple power supplies built into the driver board to produce the various coil voltages, so that 125w power supply isn't the only power supply in the game.

And once again, I would not worry about it being under powered. In the first couple of years, JJP had a ton of issues with the LED node boards and an under powered transformer on the driver board, but those are ancient history at this point too. They also had a really noisy fan too back then, not sure how the current fans are on JJP? I haven't had one in my game room for a few years now.

OK back to playfield issues. Fortunately this thread seems really quiet on pooling issues at this point other than a few really early GnR.

Beatles was two years ago. JJP and Stern both appear to have fixed these issues. That said, it did take way too long.

Ghostbusters was the first SPIKE 1 game and had a ton of issues. Just like the first SAM game WPT had tons of issues. It took Stern way too long to work out some of the issues with SPIKE and they should have simply given out node boards instead of ever charging early adopters to replace a failed board. The fact remains that the SPIKE 2 setup is a really good and reliable system and has been for a number of games. There is no reason to avoid the current Stern offerings because of SPIKE.

My bad. You are correct. And it makes my statement that Stern took way too long to fix the issues even more true. I don't remember issues with WWE and KISS like they had with GB? Maybe they started having the boards built at a different vendor?

That actually looks better than most AFM and MM I have seen. AFM especially had a lot of air balls of those green targets. Air balls = dimples. It is that simple.

What do you suppose they are doing with the games they buy back? Replacing the playfields and reselling them or just reselling them as is? If they replace the playfield do you suppose they are selling them as new again?

This is not the root cause of the problem. It is just a stupid design that is making the problems with clearcoat even worse.

You mean Band Aid kit? A "fix" would be new printer with better art adherence, no art under posts and clear that doesn't pool.