(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

9 months ago



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There are 5309 posts in this topic. You are on page 88 of 107.
#4351 4 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Where exactly do you get your facts?

anecdotal, but the dozen or so nib sterns ive played over the last 2 months have all had immediate and noticeable cratering. jp, elvira & st. for the record, i havent seen any pooling chipping, but the clearcoat and/or wood are obviously weaker since the "fix".

maybe you have a different experience, i just dont see how theres any variation in their pfs very recently.

#4352 4 months ago
Quoted from donkadelic:

anecdotal, but the dozen or so nib sterns ive played over the last 2 months have all had immediate and noticeable cratering. jp, elvira & st. for the record, i havent seen any pooling chipping, but the clearcoat and/or wood are obviously weaker since the "fix".
maybe you have a different experience, i just dont see how theres any variation in their pfs very recently.

My NIB JP2 build quality is great. Approaching 500 plays and the dimpling is minor. PF artwork and inserts all look great.

#4353 4 months ago

Does anyone here that owns a Premium or LE JP have any PF issues or know anyone that has?

#4354 4 months ago

Minor dimpling on my JP2 Premium. Otherwise perfect. No complaints. Sorry to disappoint.

#4355 4 months ago

Same - dimpling but that’s it. JP2 prem.

#4356 4 months ago
Quoted from silen7ce:

Just picked up a new maiden yesterday and day 1 had quarter inch piece of clear and art chip off by the newton ball...on top of that lower left flipper is sticking up :/ will be calling Stern monday.

What's the build date?

#4357 4 months ago

After less 90 days and 50 plays on my JP pro with a build date of Aug 22nd. I’ll reach out to Stern tomorrow but first playfield issue with them. I don’t know what to expect.

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#4358 4 months ago
Quoted from Yesh23:

After less 90 days and 50 plays on my JP pro with a build date of Aug 22nd. I’ll reach out to Stern tomorrow but first playfield issue with them. I don’t know what to expect.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Man that's awful.....

#4359 4 months ago
Quoted from donkadelic:

not to add insult to injury but just curious why you would buy a nib machine like that from stern knowing the current ongoing, unacknowledged issues?
100% of nib sterns, currently have massive dimpling/cratering issues at the very least.
stop buying them for home play. location play, i understand why operators want them they make money anyway. but home buyers i dont care if you're a multi-millionaire. only way to really make this stop is hit them where it really hurts, sales.
hell, buy a secondary market one dimpled to hell for 1500$ off in a few months, you know they're coming.

That seems a bit exaggerated. We know many games are fine, many have posted without issue. It is a small percentage of games from Stern and JJP that are in question and how those manufacturers are handling customer service for that issue.

I agree with your second sentiment that we need to stop buying from them until resolution on not only the playfield issue but the way owners of these products are treated. A public statement by both companies is highly necessary at this point to accept the issue, publicly announce the resolution to ongoing issues and how existing issues will be handled. This should be clear and straight forward, publicly announced, not the owner of the company calling a few people to tell them they won the lottery.

#4360 4 months ago
Quoted from silen7ce:

Just picked up a new maiden yesterday and day 1 had quarter inch piece of clear and art chip off by the newton ball...on top of that lower left flipper is sticking up :/ will be calling Stern monday.

Don't call Stern. Return it.

-2
#4361 4 months ago
Quoted from donkadelic:

anecdotal, but the dozen or so nib sterns ive played over the last 2 months have all had immediate and noticeable cratering. jp, elvira & st. for the record, i havent seen any pooling chipping, but the clearcoat and/or wood are obviously weaker since the "fix".
maybe you have a different experience, i just dont see how theres any variation in their pfs very recently.

Dimpling happens. This is not an "issue" and people need to stop pretending it is. The clear coat problem was an issue, but has been reported to have been fixed since JP Premium run. I'd guess the poster's Maiden was made before the resolution and was sitting at Stern or in their distributors stock.

#4362 4 months ago
Quoted from Lamprey:

Don't call Stern. Return it.

If he can that is exactly what he should do.

#4363 4 months ago
Quoted from Yesh23:

After less 90 days and 50 plays on my JP pro

50 plays in 90 days!

Your restraint is admirable!

That post takes a battering, as you are aiming for the O and S lanes constantly.

I saw a routed JP on Friday, that post was on a 20 degree lean, it had been hammered so much.

They should have left the post out, and let the end of the flipper bat take the brunt of the force. Flipper bats are easy to replace when they get busted up .. and the PF won’t get damaged.

rd

#4364 4 months ago
Quoted from rotordave:

50 plays in 90 days!
Your restraint is admirable!
That post is a bad design. It takes a battering as you are aiming for the O and S lanes constantly.
I saw a routed JP on Friday, that post was on a 20 degree lean, it had been hammered so much.
They should have left the post out, and let the end of the flipper bat take the brunt of the force. Flipper bats are easy to replace when they get busted up .. and the PF won’t get damaged.
rd

Interesting. Why do you think they placed that post there, any possible reasons?

#4365 4 months ago

The post there on JP2 makes perfect sense, but by all means continue.

-1
#4366 4 months ago
Quoted from treborlicec:

Dimpling happens. This is not an "issue" and people need to stop pretending it is. The clear coat problem was an issue, but has been reported to have been fixed since JP Premium run. I'd guess the poster's Maiden was made before the resolution and was sitting at Stern or in their distributors stock.

Just skip past those posts like I do.its a shame as this a very informative thread when people post about "real" issues. Dimpling is normal be it smaller or larger.... but some folks still can't quite digest that concept.

#4367 4 months ago
Quoted from wesman:

Interesting. Why do you think they placed that post there, any possible reasons?

The only thing I could think of is that they didn’t want you to be able to hold up the flipper and make the shot wider (easier).

#4368 4 months ago
Quoted from John1210:

Just skip past those posts like I do.its a shame as this a very informative thread when people post about "real" issues. Dimpling is normal be it smaller or larger.... but some folks still can't quite digest that concept.

I agree dimpling is normal but I have helped setup three NIB sterns since they started with the thinner clear and the dimpling is much worse than with the thicker clear. I assume they started applying less clear to combat pooling but IMO it is creating other problems.

It's just my opinion but I don't think Stern has solved their clear issues I think they just have a stop gap fix for pooling right now.

#4369 4 months ago
Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

The only thing I could think of is that they didn’t want you to be able to hold up the flipper and make the shot wider (easier).

It wouldn’t. The top of the flipper is still in the same place.

It would have been put there to stop the flipper bat breaking.

rd

#4370 4 months ago
Quoted from rotordave:

It wouldn’t. The top of the flipper is still in the same place.
It would have been put there to stop the flipper bat breaking.
rd

I would think so too but Maiden had the same flipper setup without the post, maybe they had some issues with breakage on Maiden. Mine has been fine though.

#4371 4 months ago
Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

The only thing I could think of is that they didn’t want you to be able to hold up the flipper and make the shot wider (easier).

Keith on a podcast said it was to protect the flipper. I also think he said it was bumped out to prevent straight down the middle drains as well for when someone doesn’t use the flipper.

#4372 4 months ago
Quoted from rotordave:

They should have left the post out, and let the end of the flipper bat take the brunt of the force. Flipper bats are easy to replace when they get busted up .. and the PF won’t get damaged.

Would it be bad to take out the post and put a plug there? Similar to the town square area in the early TZ playfields?

#4373 4 months ago
Quoted from Yesh23:

After less 90 days and 50 plays on my JP pro with a build date of Aug 22nd. I’ll reach out to Stern tomorrow but first playfield issue with them. I don’t know what to expect.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

That is bad. If Stern says that isn’t worthy of a new, populated PF then no way I feel confident buying anything NIB. When did the LE’s and Premiums go into production??

#4374 4 months ago

That post design has been fixed in later runs. The JP pro Playfield pictured above is an early build (August 19 - game was released July 19) and known for issues. They’ve since removed the art from around that post and the new post goes all the way through the Playfield and is secured by a nut and washer underneath the pf.

#4375 4 months ago

Could the title of the thread be changed to include "--excluding dimpling." Every Tom, Dick, and Harry who's got dimpling comes on here and posts about it. Then a bunch of people reply how its "fine" or "normal." And then a bunch more come on and say that its not, and it goes in circles. The point of this thread was to discuss things like pooling, chipping, ghosted inserts, how the companies are handling things, whether there's been a fix, ect. Dimpling is a worthy topic in its own right, but dimpling talk should have its own dedicated thread. Cuz its clogging up this one big time.

#4376 4 months ago

The post prevents SDTM drains on non flips... It should divert to the left sling or flipper depending on how you have your upper right flipper angle adjusted and the speed of the ball off the guide

#4377 4 months ago
Quoted from Utesichiban:

Does anyone here that owns a Premium or LE JP have any PF issues or know anyone that has?

Just picked up a jp2 prem and put it on the route. Will know this week how its holding up. Had about 250 plays on it with no noticeable issue.

#4378 4 months ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

Could the title of the thread be changed to include "--excluding dimpling." Every Tom, Dick, and Harry who's got dimpling comes on here and posts about it. Then a bunch of people reply how its "fine" or "normal." And then a bunch more come on and say that its not, and it goes in circles. The point of this thread was to discuss things like pooling, chipping, ghosted inserts, how the companies are handling things, whether there's been a fix, ect. Dimpling is a worthy topic in its own right, but dimpling talk should have its own dedicated thread. Cuz its clogging up this one big time.

Perhaps you could propose an exact definition of “dimpling” - i.e. max width, max depth, etc. - because if you don’t think the damage shown for instance in post 3892 should be discussed here I’m definitely not with you.

#4379 4 months ago

Hopefully that different method of securing the posts holds up to the test of time.
I can’t recall...how did Bally/Williams do it?
For some reason I was thinking that was the way it has been done for quite some time.

But changing the artwork to camouflage chipping near posts is not a very good solution.
It's not a solution to the clearcoat deficiency.
What if the chipping extends beyond the newer artwork boundaries?

And what about chipping in other areas such as shooter lanes?
I've seen pictures of that.
I don't quite remember if I've seen pictures of it near lane guides or ramp flaps...anybody?

But my concern it if the chipping occurs at lane guides due to balls being ejected (and from what I've seen extends a good distance away from the impact area) then I would not think it unreasonable that over time there will be various areas that will also eventually chip due to repeated smaller impacts.
Some of the WOZ machines that had this sort of issue chipped around the pop bumpers and infront of the drop target and onto an insert that had artwork extending onto it (pretty much impossible to touch up).
If repeated impacts not near posts can cause chipping (such as shooter lanes), I would suspect that it's possible for air balls that land in the same areas to do the same; chip sooner rather than wear later.

That being said I'm not buying new pins. I don't want to take the gamble and nobody should have to.

I can't think of any complicated products (think of Gary Stern's speeches about how a pinball machine is equivalent to a car in man hours, number of parts, etc..) where a major defect is expected to be fixed by the customer themself (as in playfield swap)...or even a not so major one on simpler consumer devices.
I've had all categories of products where items were to be returned to a local store, or taken to a repair shop, or a tech came out; and all for free. The issues at hand were not the customer's fault.
Was there any disclaimer that you were buying these machines at your own risk? Or that you were expected to do your own playfield swap should they send you a bad one (and mostlikely noticed the item was not up to QA standards, but sent it out anyways?).
The whole thing stinks.
People at the first sign of trouble should return these machines, or file a paypal claim, or reverse their credit card payments.
Filing complaints with the bureau of consumer affairs might not be a bad idea either.
People have had to go through all kinds of hell to get anything out of Stern, and as it sounds JJP too?
Or get stuck in a loop being told to take it up with your distributer who then tells you to take it up with the manufacturer and so on.

I have a friend and his distributor who were told by Stern they were getting a replacement Batman 66 playfield and its probably been a year now (and yes he checks in every so often). I don't think he's ever going to get that playfield.

If you do decide to get a recent title, you might want to do what I did on my last (as in no more NIB or new Sterns), and find a slightly used one that shows no sign of trouble.

I certainly would never buy a pin with signs of trouble, and no...somebody throwing in an extra playfield (which might also prove to be a problem anyways) would not sway me. I not going to go though the hassle of installing a playfield as I can buy a pin that doesn't need it.
Given a choice my best bet is a legacy pin, known good used newer one, or perhaps one of those Planetary / Chicago Gaming remakes or another company that has not had issues.

But if somebody choses differently / makes an informed decision knowing the risks I'm good with that.
Everybody is entitled to do as they wish.

Hopefully things do workout will for those who have been blindsided (I'm still crossing my fingers on my IM Premium. Pooling but no chipping...very low plays however, so if it does happen it will be quite sometime and then I'm just screwed).

It will be interesting to see if the Deeproot pins workout.

I wish good luck for those who are still struggling.

BobC

#4380 4 months ago
Quoted from BobC:

But changing the artwork to camouflage chipping near posts is not a very good solution.

They removed the artwork not to hide the damage, but to allow the clear to adhere to the wood. The problem with the pooling is coming from the artwork not adhering to the wood. The clear is doing its job - the art isn’t.

#4381 4 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

They removed the artwork not to hide the damage, but to allow the clear to adhere to the wood. The problem with the pooling is coming from the artwork not adhering to the wood. The clear is doing its job - the art isn’t.

This sounds logical but this JJP & Stern issue has been ongoing and somewhat confusing at times.Anyway I had an early Wonka SE first run with pooling and some chipping.Its gone now but I got the newer production run dated 10.30.19 and it’s perfect.My question is why JJP was able to still have artwork underneath post and everywhere else it was before?

#4382 4 months ago

Just recieved my imdn unpopulated pf today. Pretty quick after I was approved. I'll inbox it when I get time and let y'all know if the clear is different.

#4383 4 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

They removed the artwork not to hide the damage, but to allow the clear to adhere to the wood. The problem with the pooling is coming from the artwork not adhering to the wood. The clear is doing its job - the art isn’t.

IMO neither the art or clear are doing their jobs, the clear is soft and the art is not adhering. The reason the clear is pooling is because it is soft and is being squeezed out from underneath the hardware on the play field and the art is adhering to the clear better than it is to the wood so the art comes with the clear when it gets squeezed out.

#4384 4 months ago
Quoted from Ven:

IMO neither the art or clear are doing their jobs, the clear is soft and the art is not adhering. The reason the clear is pooling is because it is soft and is being squeezed out from underneath the hardware on the play field and the art is adhering to the clear better than it is to the wood so the art comes with the clear when it gets squeezed out.

Yet the to date OEM fix has been to remove the art from under said points and it appears to be working...

#4385 4 months ago

What’s the “ironing” fix ?

#4386 4 months ago
Quoted from donkadelic:

anecdotal, but the dozen or so nib sterns ive played over the last 2 months have all had immediate and noticeable cratering. jp, elvira & st. for the record, i havent seen any pooling chipping, but the clearcoat and/or wood are obviously weaker since the "fix".
maybe you have a different experience, i just dont see how theres any variation in their pfs very recently.

My JP2 with December build date and around 500 plays looks amazing still. I installed a shaker and some new rubbers this weekend and waxed it up and was having trouble finding any dimpling at all.

#4388 4 months ago
Quoted from woody76:

My JP2 with December build date and around 500 plays looks amazing still. I installed a shaker and some new rubbers this weekend and waxed it up and was having trouble finding any dimpling at all.

You guys keep tempting me with positive feedback on JP2. Stop it! lol Loving the look and play on that game.

#4389 4 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Yet the to date OEM fix has been to remove the art from under said points and it appears to be working...

That, and a thinner clearcoat application.

#4390 4 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

They removed the artwork not to hide the damage, but to allow the clear to adhere to the wood. The problem with the pooling is coming from the artwork not adhering to the wood. The clear is doing its job - the art isn’t.

It was a combination of both. The paint would not impact the fact that the clear can be leveled with a heat gun. They have since made adjustments to both the art and clear coat.

#4391 4 months ago
Quoted from Aquapin:

It was a combination of both. The paint would not impact the fact that the clear can be leveled with a heat gun. They have since made adjustments to both the art and clear coat.

Makes sense. My JP2LE is perfect. One of the best Stern playfields I’ve had.

#4392 4 months ago
Quoted from romulusx:

This sounds logical but this JJP & Stern issue has been ongoing and somewhat confusing at times.Anyway I had an early Wonka SE first run with pooling and some chipping.Its gone now but I got the newer production run dated 10.30.19 and it’s perfect.My question is why JJP was able to still have artwork underneath post and everywhere else it was before?

Playfield production changed to digital printing with UV ink.

#4393 4 months ago

Either I know something y'all dont or y'all know something I dont because I swore folks still had issues after the "fix" of thinner clear & removed art.

Pics & stories of such, if I am not losing my mind, are plentiful.

Orbit guides & other misc parts still have art under them & chipping is occuring.

#4394 4 months ago
Quoted from Utesichiban:

Does anyone here that owns a Premium or LE JP have any PF issues or know anyone that has?

JP2LE

terrible graining, looks like ass.

removed apron and did test drops. Craters, not dimples, right away.

i pulled everything needed and install a playfield protector before even the first ball was played.

made the graining almost invisible and no dimples for me.

#4395 4 months ago
Quoted from mandelbloom:

What’s the “ironing” fix ?

text me, got the iron here and you can borrow it anytime.

works like a charm.

#4396 4 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Makes sense. My JP2LE is perfect. One of the best Stern playfields I’ve had.

You were lucky, I got a lemon.

#4397 4 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Makes sense. My JP2LE is perfect. One of the best Stern playfields I’ve had.

Our JP2LE playfield has a bit of insert crazing and insert bubbling. No biggie for most people. Best playfields we ever got from Stern was pre 2015 (Churchill) and games made in 2017. 2016 had issues (ghosting, ribbing, playfield chipping, crazed inserts) and 2018, 2019 had issues as well (pooling, ribbing, playfield chipping, crazed inserts).

I am not sure what 2020 will bring. I hope after this shitstorm settles that Stern and JJP realize that customers paying top dollar for their toys want top dollar product. Completely pisses me off that a $14K or $15.5K machine (Australia) has bubbles and cracks in a 20 cent insert. Then you start adding ribbing, a few playfield chips and before you know it, you have a magnifying glass checking your playfield and finding everything wrong with it instead of playing and enjoying your brand new game.

NIB Cabinets and playfields need to be as perfect as possible.

#4398 4 months ago
Quoted from pinballaddicted:

Our JP2LE playfield has a bit of insert crazing and insert bubbling. No biggie for most people. Best playfields we ever got from Stern was pre 2015 (Churchill) and games made in 2017. 2016 had issues (ghosting, ribbing, playfield chipping, crazed inserts) and 2018, 2019 had issues as well (pooling, ribbing, playfield chipping, crazed inserts).
I am not sure what 2020 will bring. I hope after this shitstorm settles that Stern and JJP realize that customers paying top dollar for their toys want top dollar product. Completely pisses me off that a $14K or $15.5K machine (Australia) has bubbles and cracks in a 20 cent insert. Then you start adding ribbing, a few playfield chips and before you know it, you have a magnifying glass checking your playfield and finding everything wrong with it instead of playing and enjoying your brand new game.
NIB Cabinets and playfields need to be as perfect as possible.

Fair enough - can only speak from personal experience. I’ve absolutely had my fair share of sh*t Stern Playfields, but am very happy with my JPLE. Absolutely agree that all manufacturers need to fix the mess of the last couple of years. I can’t believe that the pinball industry’s collective knowledge on how to make a Playfield has somehow been lost.

#4399 4 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Fair enough - can only speak from personal experience. I’ve absolutely had my fair share of sh*t Stern Playfields, but am very happy with my JPLE. Absolutely agree that all manufacturers need to fix the mess of the last couple of years. I can’t believe that the pinball industry’s collective knowledge on how to make a Playfield has somehow been lost.

At the risk of sounding cynical, I imagine it’s more about reducing costs and increasing output (than collective amnesia). Whatever the case, I totally agree they need to cleanup their act! Like you, I am very happy with my JP Premium...

#4400 4 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

That post design has been fixed in later runs. The JP pro Playfield pictured above is an early build (August 19 - game was released July 19) and known for issues. They’ve since removed the art from around that post and the new post goes all the way through the Playfield and is secured by a nut and washer underneath the pf.

My game has a date of the last week in August. I talked with a tech at Stern today and he said the fix started in Sept about 500 games after mine.

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