(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

6 months ago



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There are 4935 posts in this topic. You are on page 86 of 99.
#4251 36 days ago
Quoted from romulusx:

Do they allow this type of behavior in California?I’m feeling threatened!

It's only a toy gun, or so he thinks. And yes, at least at one time, we were alowed to carry toy guns. And pretended to shoot cowboys or Indians, whatever you prefered.

#4252 36 days ago
Quoted from romulusx:

Wonka SE vs Rick&Morty BS
Better Comparison

Why? Why does an SE compare to the BS? Spooky offers the powder coated stuff on the BS. Maybe JJP has glass or shaker or something, I think spooky offers addons like that for a price, but still. We're talking ~$5k of difference minus whatever few hundred you have to spend to make the games the same. AND Spooky threw in the topper! (+$300 for JJP).

SE != BS

#4253 36 days ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Why? Why does an SE compare to the BS? Spooky offers the powder coated stuff on the BS. Maybe JJP has glass or shaker or something, I think spooky offers addons like that for a price, but still. We're talking ~$5k of difference minus whatever few hundred you have to spend to make the games the same. AND Spooky threw in the topper! (+$300 for JJP).
SE != BS

5k of difference between the BS and the Wonka CE not the SE

#4254 36 days ago

BS+ Butter cab = gorgeous

#4255 35 days ago
Quoted from Oaken:

It’s all well and good in theory to push responsibility down the production food chain until you get to who is ultimately responsible but in my experience more often then not when you do that as a manufacturer, you put your supplier out of business.
So then you as a manufacturer are still left holding the bag and now you have no more supplier either. Which may or may not put YOU out of business. So what do you do? You turn around and squeeze your customer to just stay alive for one more day. Whether that is the end consumer or yet another manufacturer higher up the food chain than you.
No one wins in these things. Everyone is angry (justifiably so). And all it would have taken to likely prevent this shitshow in the first place was adequate QC.

This is exactly why JJP has taken the stance they have and are screwing over customers. My impression is JJP is bleeding money and cant afford to fix all the screw ups.

My prediction is if this is lndeed the case (which it appears to be), JJP's days are numbered.

#4256 35 days ago

as things stand right now, jack has gotta be hoping a lot of gnr fans will cross over to buy his 10K pinball machines.

#4257 35 days ago
Quoted from Utesichiban:

This is exactly why JJP has taken the stance they have and are screwing over customers. My impression is JJP is bleeding money and cant afford to fix all the screw ups.
My prediction is if this is lndeed the case (which it appears to be), JJP's days are numbered.

I love how this thread about Stern and JJP’s bad playfields turned into a bash JJP only thread.I confess that I love 3of the 5 JJP pinball machines.But let’s be honest Stern has done the same and worse then they have,I mean look at that BM 66 pos and Stern says that’s ok!
Bash away but don’t be childish fanboys Try to be objective

#4258 35 days ago

If GNR comes out and the playfield issues still persist. People aren't going to forgive a 3rd time. They got 2 huge titles coming out they cannot afford to screw these titles up

#4259 35 days ago
Quoted from Mrawesome44:

If GNR comes out and the playfield issues still persist. People aren't going to forgive a 3rd time. They got 2 huge titles coming out they cannot afford to screw these titles up

Playfields will be fine! Once again everthing from second run(approximately October 2019)
is fine

#4260 35 days ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

We need an advocacy group of pinball enthusiasts who can organize and get manufacturers to change their stance on quality and customer service.

Agreed, but when I mentioned this to one of my distributors years ago, he wasn't optimistic.

Quoted from Seatmandan:

I'm a Product Development Engineer at Ford Motor Company, and understand slow build v.s. production speed. That's why I mentioned it. these pinballs are more akin to how Ferrari, RR and Jaguar USED to build vehicles, and less like how we do things today with automation and computers. That's the only reason I said it. I've seen the video walkthru on Stern and JJP of their production facility which is 98% human labor. This IS the equivelant of "slow build" in a highlt automated industry such as the auto industry.

I understand pinball machines are built my humans, not robots...old school by design

My point is simply this...a manufacturing process that involves humans doesn't all happen at one speed! For example, large/efficient home builders are often referred to as "production" builders (e.g. Toll Brothers, Pulte, etc.). These companies have wildly aggressive schedules for building homes. No slack in the schedules...they prefer to built with mistakes than slow down (actually a part of the business model). If customers notice issues and hold their feet to the fire, the builder (or it's sub-contractors) will come back and fix issues. Production builders typically restrict/limit customization. The more customization, the harder it is to build on a precise schedule.

Stern is like a "production" builder of pinball machines. They can produce ~500 games per week, which is 20-30x their competitors production capability. Spooky is on the other end of the spectrum...they build ~10 games per week. The huge output difference isn't just about more/less bodies...the process/culture of the companies is likely different as well. I have no idea how many JJP is capable of building in a week.

At Apple (where I worked for 20 years), the manufacturing process involves both automation and humans. Even though Apple iPhone assembly in China is labor intensive, it's far from a "slow build"!

#4261 35 days ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

But, with bespoke automotive products that have human induced errors more often than mass produced automated systems you get a company that backs up the product. That's why no one who can afford it cares about dropping $500k on a car, they know they will get taken care of. The high end automotive manufacturers likely look very long term and know they have to keep their customers in their stable or other offerings will attract them. Free loaner cars, pickup your car anywhere and fix it, no charge, etc. They will do what is necessary for you to not badmouth their brand.
Pinball is a different market. Supply is low, manufacturers are few, market is hungry for new games, people will buy no matter what (especially those who route and need the latest game to make the most on the hype).
We need an advocacy group of pinball enthusiasts who can organize and get manufacturers to change their stance on quality and customer service.

This 100%. I purchased an Aston Martin from a So Cal dealer and shipped it to my home. When it arrived, I noticed some previous paint/sand marks under the bonnet. The dealer was floored and after some research, discovered it was some "prep" work done at the dock when the car entered the US. At any rate, the dealer immediately unwound the deal, overnighted me a check for the full purchase price and had the car picked up. The GM told me their reputation is everything and having an unhappy customer with a defective product was unacceptable. This is bespoke customer service and is why I remain their customer for life.

Granted this is one extreme, but somewhere between this example and today's pinball production environment, there should be common ground.

#4262 35 days ago
Quoted from romulusx:

I love how this thread about Stern and JJP’s bad playfields turned into a bash JJP only thread.I confess that I love 3of the 5 JJP pinball machines.But let’s be honest Stern has done the same and worse then they have,I mean look at that BM 66 pos and Stern says that’s ok!
Bash away but don’t be childish fanboys Try to be objective

This thread is just as much about stern as it is JJP. JJP just happens to be the one that we are discussing right now because of DerGoetz playfield issues and Joe jumping in saying all the stuff that he said. Hes pretty much is the one that threw gasoline on the fire.

#4263 35 days ago
Quoted from Mrawesome44:

If GNR comes out and the playfield issues still persist. People aren't going to forgive a 3rd time. They got 2 huge titles coming out they cannot afford to screw these titles up

They shouldn't have forgiven a FIRST time...

#4264 35 days ago
Quoted from romulusx:

I love how this thread about Stern and JJP’s bad playfields turned into a bash JJP only thread.I confess that I love 3of the 5 JJP pinball machines.But let’s be honest Stern has done the same and worse then they have,I mean look at that BM 66 pos and Stern says that’s ok!
Bash away but don’t be childish fanboys Try to be objective

Well sadly, if JJP does ever go away, it would leave a legacy of arguably the greatest five games of the last 2 decades. So many production issues have otherwise marred 5 games that have been somewhat peerless in code, music, lcd animation, and overall gameplay since the long lost B/W days.

At this point, I only wonder if Deeproot can possibly create or maintain that standard. Stern certainly isn't....

10
#4265 35 days ago
Quoted from wesman:

Well sadly, if JJP does ever go away, it would leave a legacy of arguably the greatest five games of the last 2 decades.

You're joking right?

#4266 35 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

You're joking right?

What part of his post do you think he’s joking about?

#4267 35 days ago
Quoted from wesman:

Well sadly, if JJP does ever go away, it would leave a legacy of arguably the greatest five games of the last 2 decades.

I would agree with you, but then we’d both be wrong.

#4268 35 days ago
Quoted from wesman:

Well sadly, if JJP does ever go away, it would leave a legacy of arguably the greatest five games of the last 2 decades. So many production issues have otherwise marred 5 games that have been somewhat peerless in code, music, lcd animation, and overall gameplay since the long lost B/W days.
At this point, I only wonder if Deeproot can possibly create or maintain that standard. Stern certainly isn't....

Putting a JJP next to a stern, it´s one of the great mysteries of life, that stern sells any games at all.

On that note, i think eric on GNR will be awesome.
Clearcoat issues destroyed wonka, whilst stern having the same problem had their sect-members to fall back on, which bought their games anyway.

#4269 35 days ago
Quoted from romulusx:

What part of his post do you think he’s joking about?

They are NOT the greatest 5 games of the last 2 decades lol. Not even close.....sorry.

#4270 35 days ago
Quoted from Dr-pin:

Putting a JJP next to a stern, it´s one of the great mysteries of life, that stern sells any games at all.
On that note, i think eric on GNR will be awesome.
Clearcoat issues destroyed wonka, whilst stern having the same problem had their sect-members to fall back on, which bought their games anyway.

If he's allowed a budget, he could only go up from POTC. After Wonka though.....that game is barren compared to Pirates.

Funny, as I feel like the zippy loop Keith Elwin put in JP2 is exactly what was done appropriately by Eric in POTC. The loopable level in JP2 is just waaaay too difficult for an average or poor player.

Quoted from Who-Dey:

They are NOT the greatest 5 games of the last 2 decades lol. Not even close.....sorry.

Opinions are like arseholes, we all got one.

#4271 35 days ago
Quoted from wesman:

Opinions are like arseholes, we all got one.

That's right Mr. Steelers Fan!

Or is that JJP Fanboy?

#4272 35 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

They are NOT the greatest 5 games of the last 2 decades lol. Not even close.....sorry.

I will say, if the industry shuddered this moment....

WoZ, most playfield mechs and toys in the past 2 decades.

Hobbit best video and audio assets from media to pinball in the past 2 decades.

Dialed In is the most original and fully featured non licensed IP in the past 2 decades.

POTC is the most overall balanced code, sound design and layout and mech usage in a game in the last 2 decades.

Wonka.....well, shoots really fluidly.

Obviously opinions. And if you agree, great. If you disagree, also great.

#4273 35 days ago
Quoted from wesman:

I will say, if the industry shuddered this moment....
WoZ, most playfield mechs and toys in the past 2 decades.
Hobbit best video and audio assets from media to pinball in the past 2 decades.
Dialed In is the most original and fully featured non licensed IP in the past 2 decades.
POTC is the most overall balanced code, sound design and layout and mech usage in a game in the last 2 decades.
Wonka.....well, shoots really fluidly.
Obviously opinions. And if you agree, great. If you disagree, also great.

JJP games are loaded, no arguments there but that doesnt always equal fun. I'm not saying they arent fun either but I personally think Stern games are much more fun to play. Everyone has different taste though and I get that too. I have a few friends that are JJP Fanboys.

#4274 35 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

JJP games are loaded, no arguments there but that doesnt always equal fun. I'm not saying they arent fun either but I personally think Stern games are much more fun to play. Everyone has different taste though and I get that too. I have a few friends that are JJP Fanboys.

I have many reasons to not be a JJP fanboy, but I feel the quality present is higher than any other brand. I mean quality as in ideal, defect free, and even at best, all of these brands seem to have dimpling issues, which is unacceptable.

#4275 35 days ago
Quoted from wesman:

I have many reasons to not be a JJP fanboy, but I feel the quality present is higher than any other brand. I mean quality as in ideal, defect free, and even at best, all of these brands seem to have dimpling issues, which is unacceptable.

They are well built games for sure, I cant disagree but I buy games based on fun. I don't hate JJP games, just dont like them as much as Stern games and I'm not a fan of their pricing either and I'm definitely not a fan of the way they treat their customers. Of course that can be said for other companies as well but this deal with the JJP POTC playfields really sealed the deal on me ever buying a JJP game.

#4276 35 days ago
Quoted from wesman:

I have many reasons to not be a JJP fanboy, but I feel the quality present is higher than any other brand. I mean quality as in ideal, defect free, and even at best, all of these brands seem to have dimpling issues, which is unacceptable.

I couldn't disagree more. The highest quality manufacturer is CGC by a country mile. My MMR, AFMR and MBR have been bulletproof. Yes they had a couple of issues but in my view they responded really well to them (AFMR launch and the SOL 2 chip). Code updates on MBR for sound quality etc.

#4277 35 days ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Pinball is a different market. Supply is low, manufacturers are few, market is hungry for new games, people will buy no matter what (especially those who route and need the latest game to make the most on the hype).

We need an advocacy group of pinball enthusiasts who can organize and get manufacturers to change their stance on quality and customer service.

I completely agree with this. When you have a commodity that is produced at a slower rate, with less automation, quality expectations and standards should be WAAAY higher. They would HAVE to be!!! I cant really understand why JJP and Stern chose to use the mushy, soft playfields when they were detected upon arrival from Mirco. If someone tells me that they never detected the softness issue BEFORE populating them, or even during, then those companies REALLY have some SERIOUS quality control issues, and probably won't last.

I believe they KNEW they had too-soft playfields, and chose to use them b/c they HAD to get games out by a drop-dead date for financial reasons.

#4278 35 days ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

We need an advocacy group of pinball enthusiasts who can organize and get manufacturers to change their stance on quality and customer service.

One of my first post here on pinside was on the lack of a consumer group, looking out for the customers interest.
Spike for an example in it´s current form is just an insane setup for long time owners.

#4279 35 days ago

I've been following this thread. I haven't bought a NIB game in 4 years or more. Was planning on taking my son to Joystix tomorrow to check out all the recent games but what's the deal here? Am I going to buy something and get screwed over? What is the general recommendation?

#4280 35 days ago
Quoted from Legacy:

I've been following this thread. I haven't bought a NIB game in 4 years or more. Was planning on taking my son to Joystix tomorrow to check out all the recent games but what's the deal here? Am I going to buy something and get screwed over? What is the general recommendation?

Yes. You may get a dud

#4281 35 days ago
Quoted from tbutler6:

Yes. You may get a dud

Well, that's a bit strong. Stern and JJP have had some problems with bad playfield clearcoat lately, but the other manufacturers have done better.

All the manufacturers have had some problems with playfield dimpling due to the wood being not as hard as the "old days". However, it appears that this problem has been minimal with CGC and Spooky games.

Personally, I would avoid a NIB game from Stern or JJP until I am certain that they have resolved their problems, but am considering one from CGC. I would probably consider one from Spooky, but none of their current themes interest me.

#4282 35 days ago
Quoted from Legacy:

I've been following this thread. I haven't bought a NIB game in 4 years or more. Was planning on taking my son to Joystix tomorrow to check out all the recent games but what's the deal here? Am I going to buy something and get screwed over? What is the general recommendation?

Easy answer: Buy NOB, where you can see & play what you are getting. Almost any title you’d like is available for sale on Pinside...and Pinsiders have profiles with ratings and reviews. For example, I have a BM66 for sale...the buyer would have confidence they are buying a game without pooling, chipping, or cratering (i.e. severe dimpling). The density of the wood “is what it is”...my game has very minor dimpling (which is normal). Folks annoyed by ANY dimpling apparently add PF protectors (which I’m not a fan of).

#4283 35 days ago
Quoted from Legacy:

I've been following this thread. I haven't bought a NIB game in 4 years or more. Was planning on taking my son to Joystix tomorrow to check out all the recent games but what's the deal here? Am I going to buy something and get screwed over? What is the general recommendation?

The problem isnt that you may get a dud, manufacturing defects happen, however Stern is knowingly selling games with issues to keep the line going and then doing nothing to fix those issues when customers complain.

I wouldnt touch a NIB Stern

#4284 35 days ago
Quoted from libtech:

The problem isnt that you may get a dud, manufacturing defects happen, however Stern is knowingly selling games with issues to keep the line going and then doing nothing to fix those issues when customers complain.
I wouldnt touch a NIB Stern

Not sure where you get this from. Stern has identified and fixed the clearcoat issues as of the first JP Premium run. They have also arranged to ship populated playfields to owners that suffered issues. Obviously, they aren't reaching out proactively, but if you're vocal and persistent, they seem to be replacing playfields. What games are Stern currently "knowingly selling" with issues?

#4285 35 days ago

What I find to be funny is that none of you guys have problem with how Goertz keeps talking about his CE customer treatment?
So you are pissed that you got treated same as a standard or LE buyer cuz you bought a fucking CE model?? So LE buyer should get prefered treatment over standard buyers?? Just cuz you bought a machine that cost little more money you think that puts you on some kind of damn pedestool? None of you have a problem with that? what a fucking joke.

#4286 35 days ago
Quoted from V4Vendetta:

What I find to be funny is that none of you guys have problem with how Goertz keeps talking about his CE customer treatment?
So you are pissed that you got treated same as a standard or LE buyer cuz you bought a fucking CE model?? So LE buyer should get prefered treatment over standard buyers?? Just cuz you bought a machine that cost little more money you think that puts you on some kind of damn pedestool? None of you have a problem with that? what a fucking joke.

He keeps talking like that because apparently he was told that JJP treats CE customers with priority.

#4287 35 days ago
Quoted from Rager170:

He keeps talking like that because apparently he was told that JJP treats CE customers with priority.

he was told that because he first asked if ce buyers get prefered treatment so that mentality was there to begin with.

#4288 35 days ago
Quoted from V4Vendetta:

he was told that because he first asked if ce buyers get prefered treatment so that mentality was there to begin with.

Regardless, he was told yes to that question.

10
#4289 35 days ago
Quoted from V4Vendetta:

he was told that because he first asked if ce buyers get prefered treatment so that mentality was there to begin with.

JJP's CE Edition is $5,000 more than a Standard Edition!!! That's roughly a 65% up-charge for some pretty modest upgrades! I've never purchased a CE model, but if I did, I'd *expect* the game was built with the craftsmanship fitting for a "collector edition" (and the *massive* upgrade charge). What's so objectionable about that? Sure, in an ideal world, ALL games would be built with extreme care/quality (unfortunately, real world production apparently doesn't care how much money you are spending...it's simply a "crap shoot"). Let's face it, many of the aesthetic issues discussed in this thread aren't important to operators vending these machines. I'd have no problem if "paying up" implied more scrutiny on the aesthetics...I always liked CPR's Bronze/Silver/Gold PF distinctions. It shows how discriminating they were and gives you the opportunity to "pay up" for a PF that they consider "Gold".

#4290 35 days ago
Quoted from V4Vendetta:

he was told that because he first asked if ce buyers get prefered treatment so that mentality was there to begin with.

Not true.

Read what I posted again.

#4291 35 days ago

Well now I see some minor pooling on my BKLE, ugh! I want to give a shout out to JJ at Game Exchange he responded to my email at 10pm last night and will be letting stern now. May be watch and see at this point but I appreciate his great service highly recommend.

Now as for JJP vs Stern. IMO, the JJP games blow stern out of the water in innovation, mechanics etc... but for some reason they mostly fall flat on me with game play. The one exception is I do like Dialed In, but that theme is horrible and not a huge fan of the electric guy who gets in my way.

To Snaroffs point I just picked up a NOB MBRSE, it does have a lot of dimples but other than that I saved a good amount of $$ and it has no major issues. Plus talk about fun games, those 90s games are really the pinnacle of pinball for me!

I also agree 100% Snaroffs post above!

#4292 35 days ago
Quoted from V4Vendetta:

Just cuz you bought a machine that cost little more money you think that puts you on some kind of damn pedestool?

"Pedestool?" LOL!

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/fe2898ed-e060-41e5-8f58-c5f2ab553254

#4293 35 days ago

Dialed In one of the best games ever designed.I wish I had a nickel for every time I heard horrible theme.Who gives a shit the gameplay and toys are fucking phenomenal.Quantum Electric guy moving back and forth on playfield is great because it creates chaos and makes you think.I think it’s pure genius how it catches balls in theater mode

#4294 35 days ago
Quoted from romulusx:

Dialed In one of the best games ever designed.I wish I had a nickel for every time I heard horrible theme.Who gives a shit the gameplay and toys are fucking phenomenal.Quantum Electric guy moving back and forth on playfield is great because it creates chaos and makes you think.I think it’s pure genius how it catches balls in theater mode

I wanted to like it (in general I like Pat Lawlor's stuff), but no, I don't care for it at all. Virtually everything about it was annoying, but hard to describe why.

#4295 35 days ago
Quoted from wesman:

I will say, if the industry shuddered this moment....
WoZ most playfield mechs and toys in the past 2 decades.
Hobbit best video and audio assets from media to pinball in the past 2 decades.
Dialed In is the most original and fully featured non licensed IP in the past 2 decades.
POTC is the most overall balanced code, sound design and layout and mech usage in a game in the last 2 decades.
Wonka.....well, shoots really fluidly.
Obviously opinions. And if you agree, great. If you disagree, also great.

Assuming you meant shuttered (and not shuddered)…you cited only the good and skipped over the bad:
WoZ, beautiful game but not the best shooter and initially plagued by light board problems.
Hobbit, considered by many as not a very good game despite the nice video and audio assets.
Dialed In, unattractive cabinet and playfield art and missed the mark on theme.
POTC, costs so much that people start threads about which two games would you rather have.
Wonka, stripped down compared to other JJP games and made in the clear-coat-gate era.
My favorite games from recent times are EHoH, JP2, and BM66 (with hope for R&M to fulfill its potential).

#4296 35 days ago

I disagree, theme matters. Now I am not that picky on theme there are plenty of music pins for example that I am not a huge fan of the band but they made the game cool. Metallica , IMDN for example. Dialed in is just sort of annoying with some of the sounds etc... and that theme will not age well IMO. I still think its a fun game and would consider owning one but some slight tweaks in the theme really would have helped. I do think I enjoy the standard vs wide body JJPs.

#4297 35 days ago

Hey Guys, I just pulled the trigger and got a Stern Jurassic pro and I'm hopeful not to have any playfield issues but if I do what should I be looking for during my first few weeks with game?
Excited to get the game as It looks really amazing!

#4298 35 days ago
Quoted from caz1844:

Hey Guys, I just pulled the trigger and got a Stern Jurassic pro and I'm hopeful not to have any playfield issues but if I do what should I be looking for during my first few weeks with game?
Excited to get the game as It looks really amazing!

Clear raising up like a mound near the posts .

#4299 35 days ago
Quoted from caz1844:

Hey Guys, I just pulled the trigger and got a Stern Jurassic pro and I'm hopeful not to have any playfield issues but if I do what should I be looking for during my first few weeks with game?
Excited to get the game as It looks really amazing!

Carefully watch the sling posts and see if it’s got a big washer. Hopefully you have a later build date.

#4300 35 days ago
Quoted from caz1844:

Hey Guys, I just pulled the trigger and got a Stern Jurassic pro and I'm hopeful not to have any playfield issues but if I do what should I be looking for during my first few weeks with game?
Excited to get the game as It looks really amazing!

Check if all the hardware/posts are tight and not loose.

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