I agree...I had a problem with an aesthetic issue with a JJP game that was clearly their issue. It took a lot of back and forth, but we finally agreed on a solution that was fair to both parties.

I agree....especially in a niche business like pinball

I think the larger issue is manufacturing in this country has become a shit show rooted in greed. I've seen it firsthand in home building on both coasts. Went to my HOA meeting last night regarding construction defect mediation/arbitration/litigation that is 2 years old and likely another year from resolution. Ultimately, the builder's insurance company will write a large check to cover the screwups. The lawyer reminded us that these expensive insurance policies to protect the builder were part of our (expensive) sales price. In other words, the home buyer ultimately pays to get the builder off the hook. What a world!

I don't think it's really a manufacturing issue. It's more of a business sense issue.

The emphasis now is on short term profits rather than on long term profitability. Investors want "returns" now (and don't really care if the business is viable in two years - by that time they've moved onto some other investment anyway).

I worked for a small (profitable) company that went public. Suddenly we were making decisions that we knew would hurt us long-term but would keep Wall Street happy "this quarter". Each quarter we would jeopardize future profits for short term gains. You can guess what happened from there...but that's okay, by that time the original investors had long since departed with their "returns".

I guess Stern had sent out populated playfields at sometime,but I would say from reading this post there’s a lot more that need replacing?Sterns numbers are a lot higher as for bad playfields over multiple titles

Unfortunately, manufacturing and business and tightly woven. Sub-contractors (in home building) and assembly line workers (in pinball) are given quotas they have to meet. If a sub has 5 minutes to trim a window and they notice any problems, do they have the power to stop and call a foreman (to fix the window alignment) or do they cover it up and just slap the trim on as best as they can? In today's lean and mean building world, there usually isn't a foreman around to consult with! What happens? Shit work happens. Why? Because someone made a business decision that homes need to be cranked out in 4-5 months and there is little need for foreman since the business folks have legal agreements the size of dictionaries to protect them. If something goes wrong, the sub is at fault. Lot's of room for finger pointing.

When it comes to pinball, these games are being cranked out and I'm sure in some instances, an assembly worker can see some of the PF imperfections in this thread. Do they have the "power" to call a supervisor and pull the unit from the line? Based on the info at hand, it doesn't appear they do. In addition, there are so many tweaks that need to be made by us...another indication that these games are being manufactured very quickly without proper attention to detail. I could bore you to tears with many recent examples from NIB pinball games I've owned. For folks that are new to the hobby, they have no clue about many of the issues. Kind of true for home building as well...takes experience and a keen eye to identify/document issues and hold builders accountable.

Thats how workers get paid at JJP for assembling?? You sure about that?

It may not be that they get paid per machine...but if worker "Joe" is only assembling 3 machines a day (and keeps bringing up "problems"), but worker "Fred" assembles 5 machines a day (and never seems to mention any issue)...which guy gets to keep the job when funds get tight?

Eventually, you have a lot of "Freds" and very few "Joes" making your machines.

Id keep Joe. He cares more about the job being done as he is reporting problems. Fred doesnt care about quality.

Foreman?

There's your problem. You are buying union built homes? Just asking for issues.

Every builder I know of in my area has foreman. None are union. The only difference between today and 25 years ago is there use to be one on each crew. The foreman usually is skilled in multiple facets of the job, not just framing or trim. The foreman would get a small bump in pay to run the site, and fill in where needed. Now a foreman runs multiple jobs and spends a good chunk of time driving between them and putting the fires out.

As for quality...you better be on site every day making sure your house is being built correctly, because quality is secondary any more.

I highly doubt these things are being held to a production speed quota of "X amount of units a day", or hour, or whatever, like the auto industry, or other durable goods industries are. Seems to me they are essentially "slow built" with nearly zero automation, and almost 100% human power. This to me says they DO have the ability to QC things such as the playfields BEFORE they are populated. To me, this is where the wheels fell off.

Since the issue is purely aesthetic , and not functional (inhibiting the ability for gameplay) It explains why they're not doing much about it. Kinda sad, really, since JJPs products are really amazing.

If there was QC in place, they would have caught the issues with my POTC CE that I picked up from the factory and placed into the inside of my vehicle. Perhaps it's changed now, but as I said before I had to fix the issues myself upon turning the machine on.

A few years ago, I had an issue with a brand new DILE where a design flaw in some early units was causing balls to become severely damaged and scratch up the playfield. Game looked like absolute trash after 50 plays! THANK GOD I purchased through a fairly large, reputable distributor. After a lot of emails and photos and private phone conversations and waiting, they were able to work out an arrangement with JJP where the distro purchased my damaged unit from JJP for what I'm sure was a very attractive price, to be used as a 'floor model' in their showroom. The distro paid to have my defective unit packaged and picked up, and I was sent a brand new unit direct from JJP. They also asked me to keep this VERY VERY QUIET at the time. Distro warned me that JJP is all over this forum, and if I started posting about my issues or how they were handling it, that would be the last favor JJP ever did for me. Hopefully, the statute of limitations has passed on that threat.

I post this just to say that I believe JJP to be a fair company in dealing with customer service problems.....but it is very important to have a strong, reputable distributor on your side if you encounter major issues with your game.

Except for when you've got distributors waving money saying "where are those machines you promised" and creditors waving bills saying "when are you going to pay these".

That's when you're laying off the Joes and hiring more Freds.

You could doubt it all you want, but when companies are churning out products, time is ALWAYS a factor. “Slow built” is unfortunately a thing of the past in many industries...like it or not, humans are being asked to compete with robots. Even tough robots don’t build homes, many components are pre-assembled by robots off site (reducing the number of workers involved to say, complete a roof).

Assembly line work by definition is time critical. Sub-contractors building homes are always under time constraints...and over the past decade, the constraints have tightened. My insight is based on actual transactions & experiences with home building (where the mistakes make pinball look pretty damn good). I have no idea how Stern runs it’s assembly line, but it’s very clear more machines are being produced with more defects (many, related to manufacturing).

Totally off target. I use the term “foreman” loosely...meaning a supervisor that makes sure all the sub-contractors aren’t stepping on each other’s toes. The role of a supervisor has nothing to do with union or non-union.

I highly disagree. Thats a greedy company that wont last. You will be paying more once customers have issues with their products and you have to fix them, or result in losing customers all together. Pumping out defective products will not get you anywhere.

If the quality is not there, you will not have a business. I stand behind that in general...

They do line work though, not complete machine assembly.

If anyone is interested in what JJP'S lines look like, check out this video by TNT Amusements.

Nice setup they have but if he cant get quality playfields its all for nothing.

I’m getting tired of saying this but I’m pretty sure everything coming off of production line from October to now is good!I’m not trying to schill or whatever you call it for JJP
If anybody with a confirmed production after October has an issue please post machine and production date

I'm a Product Development Engineer at Ford Motor Company, and understand slow build v.s. production speed. That's why I mentioned it. these pinballs are more akin to how Ferrari, RR and Jaguar USED to build vehicles, and less like how we do things today with automation and computers. That's the only reason I said it. I've seen the video walkthru on Stern and JJP of their production facility which is 98% human labor. This IS the equivelant of "slow build" in a highlt automated industry such as the auto industry.

I am waiting for my order for a WW from JJP with October or later date. If/when it comes, I will certainly let you know. Distributor is calling JJP today to speak with them about it. Im sure JJP is annoyed by it but I cant chance getting a playfield issue from earlier dates.

Probably so but until they make things right with the customers that they are screwing I just dont care. I would never buy a game off of them.

Don’t buy from them,I don’t care I was just letting people who do want to buy a Wonka what to look for.Well it looks like your buying Spooky,CGC or AP if that’s your stance on new pins.

Getting ready to buy a CGC probably. That's the only brand I would consider at the moment.

I'm with Spooky now. Best quality modern playfield I have seen, and more than one theme that actually interests me, especially the latest one, and customer service that is second to none, is a triple win in my book.

If one of the other companies ever came up with a theme I like, it might be quite a conundrum.

Well, I didn't mean that this was a good idea, but it tends to happen nevertheless.

I need to catch up on Spookys offerings.I played Rob Zombie and the ghost hunter game fro Ben and they both felt like amateurish.I need to get some time on ACNC
at Louisville Expo.But seriously JJP and even Stern at that point we’re way ahead.I’m rooting for Charlie and friends to succeed,just like I am for Jack who turned this pinball ship around with WOZ!

ACNC is pretty good but I've heard they have some serious reliability issues. Don't know if it's true but I've heard that from many people.

It's a good one. I like it. That and TNA are their best efforts yet IMO. Rick and Morty I believe is going to be a very special machine.

Wrong thread to really discuss that though. He's really gone out of his way to get the best quality playfields he can. The shortlived issue with TNA was taken care of.

Supposedly a software issue they are working on and it will be resolved.

Eehhhhhhhh, I don't think that's how it works there.

Yeah but they shipped the games out before the issue was resolved. Not cool.

Not sure they knew it existed, can't say for sure, but it wouldn't be the first time a game shipped with incomplete or buggy code.

All I know is Charlie cares about both his product and customers and is easy to get ahold of directly to discuss issues or just shoot the shit if you like. He responds very fast.

The ACNC memory leak issue has been fixed.

There you have it!

And I’m glad Spooky resolved issue,I’m just saying people are going to be missing out on some really good new pinball machines if they wait for Stern and JJP to give everybody a populated playfield.

Perhaps people should stop thinking about missing out on things and enjoy what they have.

I haven't purchased a new game since TNA, and that's like two years ago, and the next one may not get here for another year. I still play my old ones and never get tired of them. But that's just me.

Same here brother!

I got JP2 LE and a playfield protector went on it before a single ball was played.

That is the new world I live in

Fortunately I have a friend in town that is a distributer for Stern, JJP, American, and CGC, and has them all set up to play as they come in, so I'm not really missing out on anything anyway. Haha

But even when he wasn't, it was no different.

Well good for,now change your avatar that kid scares me !

This one better? lol. I'm on it. Just give me a little time...

download (2) (resized).jpg

Much Better

HA. How can you even make that statement? There was nothing FAIR about that transaction. If JJP is doing something they don't want other customers to know about you KNOW for a fact that's shady. It's shady because they wouldn't take care of other customers in the same manner, only because they have a relationship with your distributor, I would guess. That's a bad way to do business, people are going to get pissed off (oops too late). Not to mention, again, that Jack told me point blank that he would do no favors or treat any of his customers differently. If they offer a solution to one person they would have to offer it to everyone. That's one of the bold faced lies he told me directly. I'm getting really tired of people backing up JJP because they have some sort of tie to them, know Jack, their game is ok, etc. No one who sends money to these companies should be ok with the kind of treatment they are giving their customers who spend their disposable income on these games.

Do they allow this type of behavior in California?I’m feeling threatened!

Compare cost differences, then I think you'll have a better comparison. A JJP $12k CE game versus a spooky $7k or whatever it was for the R&M BS. Huge difference from a small mom and pop shop. JJP charges enough that they should be providing not only the best QA and product quality but the best customer service and support, neither of which they seem to be doing. Luckily they can coast through on name reputation (ahhh getting less and less) and the fact that the pinball market is made up of small supply and a fanatical market that will purchase even with issues. Until a concerted effort is made to boycott manufacturers who won't adhere to some sort of acceptable, baseline standard in their quality and replacement of manufacturing issues.

I whole heartedly agree that WOZ was a "game" changer (heh) and mine is never going anywhere. JJP did a HUGE amount of good for the pinball community and industry. But even with their first production run of WOZ they had playfield issues that they did the least amount they could to resolve. Heck, I bought a SE with damage and I was even charged for the repair decal they produced to cover up the damage. How much of a slap in the face is that? You can't have it both ways. Either you produce a superior product that you stand by or you don't and you skate by because the market lets you. We are the market, we are letting this happen.

Spooky - Free interactive topper AFTER you bought your game! .... JJP, $300? for some "limited edition" printed plastic and lighting. I mean, come on.

Cyberbullying, please contact your local police station and report as soon as possible.

But, with bespoke automotive products that have human induced errors more often than mass produced automated systems you get a company that backs up the product. That's why no one who can afford it cares about dropping $500k on a car, they know they will get taken care of. The high end automotive manufacturers likely look very long term and know they have to keep their customers in their stable or other offerings will attract them. Free loaner cars, pickup your car anywhere and fix it, no charge, etc. They will do what is necessary for you to not badmouth their brand.

Pinball is a different market. Supply is low, manufacturers are few, market is hungry for new games, people will buy no matter what (especially those who route and need the latest game to make the most on the hype).

We need an advocacy group of pinball enthusiasts who can organize and get manufacturers to change their stance on quality and customer service.

Wonka SE vs Rick&Morty BS
Better Comparison