(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

9 months ago



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#4051 4 months ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Absolutely not true.

One here and one there when they’ve had a lot of bad playfields

#4052 4 months ago

I hate to say buy used but damn, not sure what else to do until things change. Last NIB for home use I purchased was 2 1/2 years ago. I feel for you guys and sorry for all these issues. It’s sad.

#4053 4 months ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Absolutely not true.

I quite often read reports of people receiving exactly those

#4054 4 months ago
Quoted from pinballaddicted:

That will not resolve the issues, if anything make them worse. Would push used prices up too and back to not enough machines to go round to meet demand.
What would you propose to fill the hole in the market?

What incentive is there for them to improve quality if it isn't costing them sales?

I really don't think many people here agree that a bare play field acceptable but that's all that is being offered in most cases.

So if they are able to make an inferior product, without affecting sales and they are able to only offer a non populated PF and people are ok with it whats the incentive for them to improve?

In a free market the only thing that generally drives change is sales and $$$.

#4055 4 months ago
Quoted from newpinbin:

At the end of the day the distributors should be helping their customers out and they are not! What a lot of people don't seem to realize is the distributors are making over $1000 on most games they sell. People need to stop buying NIB games. Most claimed after the Ghostbusters fiasco they were done with NIB.

I think this is always the case, my distributor did what they could for me. I was copied on emails that went back and fourth and my Dist was pretty livid. It went from sorry we won't do anything to ok we will send you a new unpopulated PF. My dist tried and I tried and there was no way I was getting a populated PF. The distributors are in a pickle here and I feel sorry for the majority of them, they know it's not right but what are they going to do just get out of the business and stop selling pins?

I have passed on 3 NIB pins that I had plans to purchase since then and I am happy that I did because people are still having play field issues. It's just not worth rolling the dice with thousands of dollars then getting a defective product that the manufacture won't stand behind.

#4056 4 months ago

I have the feeling that they know they have the same odds of the replacement playfields being bad as well.

If they send you an unpopulated playfield, they are done. You aren't gonna install it, and them not asking for the old one back all but guarantees that.
It will sit in a shipping box until you sell your HUO Pin. Then it's someone else's problem. Not Sterns.

If they send you a populated playfield you are gonna install it...
and they know it is likely you will have the same issue and the same problems. Which will still be their problem.

#4057 4 months ago

Seems like quality could get even worse, and profits go up even more, and people will still line up to buy the crap sight unseen. Ooh shiny TMNT pin gimme. See what I mean?

I don’t even care what Leo Getz tried to do, my take away was that the pin manufacturers refuse to stand behind their products other than a pity playfield for the loudest voices.

#4058 4 months ago
Quoted from Ven:

What incentive is there for them to improve quality if it isn't costing them sales?
I really don't think many people here agree that a bare play field acceptable but that's all that is being offered in most cases.
So if they are able to make an inferior product, without affecting sales and they are able to only offer a non populated PF and people are ok with it whats the incentive for them to improve?
In a free market the only thing that generally drives change is sales and $$$.

I agree with what you are saying however I do not believe there are enough of us not buying NIB to make a difference to Stern or JJP. My thoughts are Stern and JJP just want to do whatever is easiest and cheapest for them.

#4059 4 months ago
Quoted from Ven:

I think this is always the case, my distributor did what they could for me. I was copied on emails that went back and fourth and my Dist was pretty livid. It went from sorry we won't do anything to ok we will send you a new unpopulated PF. My dist tried and I tried and there was no way I was getting a populated PF. The distributors are in a pickle here and I feel sorry for the majority of them, they know it's not right but what are they going to do just get out of the business and stop selling pins?
I have passed on 3 NIB pins that I had plans to purchase since then and I am happy that I did because people are still having play field issues. It's just not worth rolling the dice with thousands of dollars then getting a defective product that the manufacture won't stand behind.

I have also passed on NIB pins, most recent JP. I will no longer buy NIB if I even buy at all anymore.

#4060 4 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Joe first of all i will say that I've heard alot of good things about you and im not trying to get personal with you so let's just get that out of the way right now. What i don’t understand is why you are trying to make Goetz look so bad. Him trying to cut a deal with JJP for 3K doesn’t piss me off at all, the man is just trying to reach a resolution with JJP on the defective product that he bought and THEY ARENT WILLING TO MAKE IT RIGHT WITH HIM.

You ought to have a problem with someone who is allegedly using both blackmail and also saying that they will actively LIE to the community about their resolution. That goes beyond an NDA in my opinion, an NDA is keeping quiet - not actively undermining the efforts of other people in the same situation by misrepresenting your position. It is the epitome of "f**k you, got mine".

I have every sympathy for anyone caught in the position of having a defective playfield be it Stern or JJP, and I totally get that $5k+ is a cost that means different things to different people. I can even sympathise with people who ultimately just want to get THEIR pinball fixed, and aren't going to lose much sleep if the whole community don't get the same deal.

I would personally draw the line at making shady backroom deals and threatening the company with blackmail and stating that you will lie to the community about what you got. That says more about one's morals I think, and goes beyond pinball.

Having said all of the above - it is all conjecture. 3 sides to the story is right.

#4061 4 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Honestly I don't know why they don't eliminate them all together

I'm not one to comment much on Pinside. Just glad to see other hobbyists in agreement about distributors. In the 15 years I have been in this hobby, I have only purchased one NIB game directly from Spooky. Furthermore, if I had an issue with the game I would call Charlie directly.

I remember when DI came out and asked a distributor at a Pinball convention about the features of the game. He had no clue about the features, rules, gameplay of the game, But yet, I am expected to purchase a new game from someone who only cares about receiving the commission from my purchase. I'm not suggesting all distributors are awful, but I have had more bad than good experiences with some distributors.

#4062 4 months ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Absolutely not true.

I got a replacement AC/DC vault premium populated playfield a year or more ago. But I had to uninstall damaged one and install new one by myself as a noob. No help from distributor. Man these distributors have it easy as pie.

11
#4063 4 months ago
Quoted from Durzel:

You ought to have a problem with someone who is allegedly using both blackmail and also saying that they will actively LIE to the community about their resolution. That goes beyond an NDA in my opinion, an NDA is keeping quiet - not actively undermining the efforts of other people in the same situation by misrepresenting your position. It is the epitome of "f**k you, got mine".
I have every sympathy for anyone caught in the position of having a defective playfield be it Stern or JJP, and I totally get that $5k+ is a cost that means different things to different people. I can even sympathise with people who ultimately just want to get THEIR pinball fixed, and aren't going to lose much sleep if the whole community don't get the same deal.
I would personally draw the line at making shady backroom deals and threatening the company with blackmail and stating that you will lie to the community about what you got. That says more about one's morals I think, and goes beyond pinball.
Having said all of the above - it is all conjecture. 3 sides to the story is right.

First of all Durzel I'd like to say that there arent many people in this world that has better morals than me so I hope you arent attacking my morals when you don't even know me. Goetz exhausted all things with Jack sounds like and he was just trying to get some kind of monetary compensation for his defective pinball machine. I don't think he was trying to screw the entire pinball community by any means. JACK should have made it right long before he ever had to try such drastic measures to get compensated. I also dont think he was gonna lie to the community, I think be was just going to go away quietly.

The real problem here is manufacturers arent standing behind their product and I am on here fighting for what's in the best interest of EVERYONE on this forum that buys a NIB game and gets screwed, so please dont try and make me out to be the bad guy because I'm not and that's just silly.

The reason I am so passionate about it is because I have two games myself right now that came with playfield defects that have yet to be resolved. I'm not on here just trying to be a dick because I like being that way. I think it's wrong when people don't get compensated for a defective product that cost so much money like these games do, it's just not acceptable.

#4064 4 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

First of all Durzel I'd like to say that there arent many people in this world that has better morals than me so I hope you arent attacking my morals when you don't even know me. Goetz exhausted all things with Jack sounds like and he was just trying to get some kind of monetary compensation for his defective pinball machine. I don't think he was trying to screw the entire pinball community by any means. JACK should have made it right long before he ever had to try such drastic measures to get compensated. I also dont think he was gonna lie to the community, I think be was just going to go away quietly.

I wasn't talking about you.

I was talking about the email to JJP that pinballstar apparently has from Goetz which proposed a $3k discount off a future pin, and offering to sign a NDA and "keep quiet" (from the community) about the resolution, and whatever else it said. I didn't say he was trying to "screw the entire pinball community", but - depending on the exact wording of the email - it could be construed as rather poor form, at the very least. This is all conjecture though, as said.

I thought I was very clear about the distinction between someone who is having problems with their pin who ultimately wants THEIR situation to be resolved, and making suggestions to the manufacturer through backchannels which could undermine the efforts of the affected community as a whole.

#4065 4 months ago
Quoted from Durzel:

I wasn't talking about you.
I was talking about the email to JJP that pinballstar apparently has from Goetz which proposed a $3k discount off a future pin, and offering to sign a NDA and "keep quiet" (from the community) about the resolution, and whatever else it said. I didn't say he was trying to "screw the entire pinball community", but - depending on the exact wording of the email - it could be construed as rather poor form, at the very least. This is all conjecture though, as said.
I thought I was very clear about the distinction between someone who is having problems with their pin who ultimately wants THEIR situation to be resolved, and making suggestions to the manufacturer through backchannels which could undermine the efforts of the affected community as a whole.

I dont know the entire situation but as of right now I just look at it as a guy that was trying to get some sort of compensation from a manufacturer that basically said I sold you a shitty product and I'm not going to stand behind it and theres not a damn thing that you can do about it so screw you!

As I said before, if Jack would have done the right thing and sent the guy a populated playfield in the first place then it would have never had to get to that point. I just for the life of me cant understand how a pinball manufacturer can sell someone a 12K defective game and not have to stand behind it. That should be illegal.

#4066 4 months ago

No arguments there.

17
#4067 4 months ago

Hello all,

To make it clear to everyone reading, the whole problem, if you want to call it that, revolves around what I described earlier and allow me to quote what I wrote

"I asked before making the purchase and that was ground FOR making the purchase. And I told you that.

You told me on the phone that "JJP takes special care of their CE customers and that I would be made whole"."

This was an agreement between Joe and myself, one that he now denied he entered into and that I have no proof of. And one that he possibly and could honestly have forgoten about, which would be only human. But then he needs to keep phone calls to the point in the future and not get lost in 20 minutes of anecdotes.

What happened next is that I did not actively seek out JJP. What happened is that I registered the issue, as it was announced that this was what JJP wanted, on their website and tried to call and emailed Joe.

Joe did not reach out to me with a solution in time (he was on vacation), Jersey Jack in true Murphys Law style called me with the Jersey Jack solution before Joe got to me.

The timing could not have been worse in hindsight.

I talked to Jack and told him that I am not satisfied with the solution. Told him that I would rather be interested, instead of getting a useless playfield, to get discount towards a future title. Shipping and cost of playfield would be much better used that way.

Jack simply hung up on me. I did not mention Joe during that phone call as I realized what was happening and did not want to throw Joe under the bus in front of his manufacturer.

But now I had realized that Joe had made a promise in JJPs name that JJP was not willing not wanting nor bound to keep.

Read again, Joe told me JJP would take preferred Collectors Edition care of me. Not him. And here I was, surprised and disappointed.

I understood right away what situation Joe was in, JJP would give me standard treatment and he had a promise that he wanted to keep, or so I thought at the time. And I reached out to Joe and offered discount on a future title solution.

I was still under the impression at that time that Joe wanted to honor and/or that he remembered the agreement, hence I suggested that we find a solution for me. And that I will not share said solution as we do not want to set precedent for JJP as Jack had decided to do playfield only. I thought that Joe and I were trying to sort things out together.

Nothing. One email to Jack from Joe, Jack replied said email with "Götz is getting a playfield"...

I unhappily settled for the playfield....

Time passed and every now and then the topic came up here and I shared my frustration with others. I was not bound by an NDA nor was I offered a solution if I keep only quiet.

And now here we are.

#4068 4 months ago

Yes. Via the distributor Cleveland Coin. A real brick & mortar distributor with a stocked parts and service department. Also vending machine sales & service. Now known as Shaffer Distributing.

#4069 4 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

My take on dimples and CGC is the current quality of playfield wood is WAY worse for every manufacturer making playfields today, not just CGC, but everyone. It has been said that the quality of the plywood was way better in the 90’s and before, and I believe it. Now I do believe CGC is using the best wood they can find, but my MBrLE looks like its been hit with about a thousand tiny ballpean hammers... I’ve seen quite a few original WMS MB’s around here in the Phoenix area that are still as smooth as the day they came out of the box, minus severe chipping around the scoop. My remake, although no where near as bad as a Stern, had a great looking playfield out of the box, the silk screen process was perfect. If they could have just put it on a nicer piece of wood with a nice old fashoined real high VOC clear coat would have been better. So not as bad as Stern or JJP, but not as good as old WMS/Bally/Midway used to sell. Maybe it will dimple flat over time... right

Yea I hear ya. I dont have much experience with the older games but wouldnt surprise me that quality has changed.

Yes, they will flatten out. I didnt believe it either but funny enough, I was looking over my TWD just the other day and said at first, "where did all the dimples go?", then i realized they were there, just so many of them that they look flat.

#4070 4 months ago
Quoted from DerGoetz:

You are a handful, Joe.
I pointed out to you that the POTC CE that I played in town had chipping and pooling.
I asked what would happen should the same happen to me.
I asked before making the purchase and that was ground FOR making the purchase. And I told you that.
You told me on the phone that "JJP takes special care of their CE customers and that I would be made whole".
I then had the exact and discussed playfield issue happen to me and I contactef you while you were on vacation. You did not get back with a solution. A day or two later was when Jack made his phone calls, which I thanked him for. I told Jack on the phone that I find his solution unsatisfying but did not throw you under the bus during that phone call.
I left it at that and was done with you and JJP due to your actions.
When the topic came up on the forum I posted about my experience.
Then one of your friends contacted you and only now, that it was public, did you care.
You made sure to contact Jack and myself right away to make me out to be the scumbag, even threatened me with legal action and boasted that I have no recording of said phone call you and I had, no proof of the promise you made.
Which is correct, I only do business in writing with people I do not trust. I trusted you at the time.
Point is, you promised me PREFERRED treatment, I now got the same treatment as anyone else.
I have NO use for an unpopulated playfield, I wrote you and Jack that. It's a waste of Jacks money, shipping and my space. All I can do is sell it with the pinball.
I offered that I would be happy with a price break on the coming Guns and Roses that you told me about in January 2019. That is on the other hand correct.
You giving me a small break would not have cost you a dime, you would have sold a pin for Jack, I would have continued to be a customer of both yourself and JJP.
Instead you threw Jack under the bus by promising something he cannot keep. And now start a public shit storm. Be my guest.
And if you, as threatened, want to take legal action against me it will be popcorn time on Pinside.

Wait so NOW I DIDN'T promise you a populated playfield ? REALLY ? Now you agree I only said what I have been saying all along ? Because that was what started all this - your lie that I SPECIFICALLY promised you a populated playfield vs my contention I stated in general terms 'JJP takes care of their customers', which of course I feel about every single company I represent. AND I will add this was when the PF issues were in their infancy and they were sending post kits out - it was not as widespread which would have warranted a more in depth conversation. You sent me the email - I have it - you have it - why don't you post it where you confirm what I said back in September vs the lies you told Jack to coerce him and what you came on here stating I told you. THAT is the crux of the whole argument - that you contend I promised you something - so no mention of that now - are you now in agreement after attacking me that that wasn't what went down ?

I also got back to you with on my vacation - as a matter of fact the email I sent you yesterday to review states from you in some form 'Sorry to bother you on your vacation, thank you for getting back to me, and there is no rush' etc.... So now I never got back to you or what you said at the time in your email true ? Which is it ? Make up your mind. Because you keep lying and saying what I did but that is not what occurred. Tell the truth. Show the emails you wrote.

I threatened no legal action - give me a break - with your lies to JJP and what you were starting on Pinside I said I would defend myself if needed and unfortunately this is the result. Again, another example of you creating your own truth and adding to conversations things that just did not exist. And when I asked if you had it in writing it was because you NEVER once mentioned the populated playfield thing until what 4 months later ? All of a sudden this was some thing you said I 'lured' you into buying your game with - I said if it was such a pivotal piece of information you solely based your purchase on, it's a wonder it was never discussed in any emails and of course it was 'over the phone', meaning - you made it up later on to coerce JJP.

No friend told me anything - I saw your post on my own where you stated you didn't get your playfield yet and I emailed you and Jack to ask you if there was anything we can do get you your playfield... Jesus Christ you can't tell the truth for anything... I'm happy to post that email if you'd like. It's pretty basic - a distributor inserting himself into a situation to try to help without being asked to do so... I'd say that's pretty commendable. I did that on my own to make sure you were ok. THEN and only then did you see an opportunity to make your whole populated playfield story up. Never before was it mentioned... Only when I do a good thing and try to see if I can get you a status do you all of a sudden have a problem with me. I think you're conniving, calculated, and have a very skewed moral compass. As a matter of fact after your tirade to JJP, which Jack knew was BS, I told him as I tried to figure out what was up with you... 'Jack I actually think he's trying to come after me to pressure you to give in to him since he may think you'll try to buy him off to save me some headaches'... It was just a suspicion then, but after I found all your earlier extortion emails yesterday from September I'm convinced you know exactly what you are doing. Creating a shit storm, involving me as a pawn, and trying to cause trouble. Really disappointing someone even has that capacity to be like that.

I didn't post here on Pinside and start anything - YOU did. I am telling the truth of who you are and what you did. I had no choice to defend myself when you are on here posting lies... You tried to EXTORT a special deal from JJP for yourself in the form of a $ 3,000 discount on another game (so much for outrage against JJP that you wanted more JJP in the future, huh ?) and were rightfully rebuffed, you said nobody online would know, you'd lie and post you got an unpopulated playfield and were ok with that, even saying you'd sign an NDA ! You didn't give 2 shits about the community in general - you cared about you and didn't care who got shafted. No different than what you are doing to me right now. Why don't you tell each and every reader in this thread how you were willing to sell them all out for your own personal benefit ? If you got your deal you'd be on here lying to them - singing everyone's praises, mine and JJP's if they gave in. Nice guy folks huh ?

You know you're BAD for the community which is why I'm standing up against you. I care about the hobby. The PF issues sucked, yes of course, I'm not saying in any shape or form that customers shouldn't be mad. BUT if you think these sort of tactics against a company and a distributor - lying and slandering people like you are - aren't going to make any of these companies feel all good about helping people more... Why would they believe anyone's claims about things if this sort of extortion is allowed to occur. Why would any distributor openly try to involve themselves in situations like I did when this is the thanks I get for it. I should have been like everyone else and kept my mouth shut instead of standing up for my customer and taking the initiative to make sure you got what you were promised.

So... if you really want to do the right thing - POST THE EMAILS YOU SENT ON 9/9 AND 9/15 I sent you yesterday after I found them - and show everyone what really went down - how no mention of a populated playfield was made nor promised by me, and how you tried to extort JJP, and how you had nothing but glowing commentary about how I treated you then... Then try to explain when all of a sudden 4 months later all of this is now occurring. You got caught and overplayed your hand. Admit it.

POST THE EMAILS and show the community you are now using as your platform. I'm sure you're afraid to do so... Take my challenge and post them in full as I sent them to you yesterday. I have nothing to hide, I'm telling every bit of truth here, YOUR emails prove it - you're coming after me so post the emails and let the community you are using with your nonsense decide. Anyone dealing with you is susceptible to the same nonsense. I have 100's and 100's of people I've dealt with for years respectfully and successfully and it's funny you're the only one who has been so mistreated, that's weird huh ?

#4071 4 months ago
Quoted from DerGoetz:

Hello all,
To make it clear to everyone reading, the whole problem, if you want to call it that, revolves around what I described earlier and allow me to quote what I wrote
"I asked before making the purchase and that was ground FOR making the purchase. And I told you that.
You told me on the phone that "JJP takes special care of their CE customers and that I would be made whole"."
This was an agreement between Joe and myself, one that he now denied he entered into and that I have no proof of. And one that he possibly and could honestly have forgoten about, which would be only human. But then he needs to keep phone calls to the point in the future and not get lost in 20 minutes of anecdotes.
What happened next is that I did not actively seek out JJP. What happened is that I registered the issue, as it was announced that this was what JJP wanted, on their website and tried to call and emailed Joe.
Joe did not reach out to me with a solution in time (he was on vacation), Jersey Jack in true Murphys Law style called me with the Jersey Jack solution before Joe got to me.
The timing could not have been worse in hindsight.
I talked to Jack and told him that I am not satisfied with the solution. Told him that I would rather be interested, instead of getting a useless playfield, to get discount towards a future title. Shipping and cost of playfield would be much better used that way.
Jack simply hung up on me. I did not mention Joe during that phone call as I realized what was happening and did not want to throw Joe under the bus in front of his manufacturer.
But now I had realized that Joe had made a promise in JJPs name that JJP was not willing not wanting nor bound to keep.
Read again, Joe told me JJP would take preferred Collectors Edition care of me. Not him. And here I was, surprised and disappointed.
I understood right away what situation Joe was in, JJP would give me standard treatment and he had a promise that he wanted to keep, or so I thought at the time. And I reached out to Joe and offered discount on a future title solution.
I was still under the impression at that time that Joe wanted to honor and/or that he remembered the agreement, hence I suggested that we find a solution for me. And that I will not share said solution as we do not want to set precedent for JJP as Jack had decided to do playfield only. I thought that Joe and I were trying to sort things out together.
Nothing. One email to Jack from Joe, Jack replied said email with "Götz is getting a playfield"...
I unhappily settled for the playfield....
Time passed and every now and then the topic came up here and I shared my frustration with others. I was not bound by an NDA nor was I offered a solution if I keep only quiet.
And now here we are.

POST THE EMAILS...

Show really how you felt in September.
Show how you thanked me for being involved WHILE I was on vacation which you seem to now lie about that I wasn't involved.
Show the community how you were willing to throw them all under the bus as long as you got yours. You didn't care about a resolution in general - just for you at all costs. Same as you are doing now with me - I'm your sacrificial lamb now no different than you were willing to do to all of your Pinside peers you cry to now for support.
You know the truth...

POST THE EMAILS... let everyone read them... then try to explain yourself and why you created a shitstorm to just be nasty and hurt people. And also make a bad situation worse for everyone else.

Then try to explain why you made up a lie about me promising you a populated playfield which is what you were contending recently to Jack and now on
Pinside. Didn't happen which is why you are now saying what I contend that 'JJP will take care of their customers', and nothing specific like you are saying. All lies. You got caught. Admit it, apologize. And I'll still fight for whatever you need like always, that's my job - has been and will continue to be.

22
#4072 4 months ago
Quoted from PinballSTAR:

Wait so NOW I DIDN'T promise you a populated playfield ? REALLY ? Now you agree I only said what I have been saying all along ? Because that was what started all this - your lie that I SPECIFICALLY promised you a populated playfield vs my contention I stated in general terms 'JJP takes care of their customers', which of course I feel about every single company I represent. AND I will add this was when the PF issues were in their infancy and they were sending post kits out - it was not as widespread which would have warranted a more in depth conversation. You sent me the email - I have it - you have it - why don't you post it where you confirm what I said back in September vs the lies you told Jack to coerce him and what you came on here stating I told you. THAT is the crux of the whole argument - that you contend I promised you something - so no mention of that now - are you now in agreement after attacking me that that wasn't what went down ?
I also got back to you with on my vacation - as a matter of fact the email I sent you yesterday to review states from you in some form 'Sorry to bother you on your vacation, thank you for getting back to me, and there is no rush' etc.... So now I never got back to you or what you said at the time in your email true ? Which is it ? Make up your mind. Because you keep lying and saying what I did but that is not what occurred. Tell the truth. Show the emails you wrote.
I threatened no legal action - give me a break - with your lies to JJP and what you were starting on Pinside I said I would defend myself if needed and unfortunately this is the result. Again, another example of you creating your own truth and adding to conversations things that just did not exist. And when I asked if you had it in writing it was because you NEVER once mentioned the populated playfield thing until what 4 months later ? All of a sudden this was some thing you said I 'lured' you into buying your game with - I said if it was such a pivotal piece of information you solely based your purchase on, it's a wonder it was never discussed in any emails and of course it was 'over the phone', meaning - you made it up later on to coerce JJP.
No friend told me anything - I saw your post on my own where you stated you didn't get your playfield yet and I emailed you and Jack to ask you if there was anything we can do get you your playfield... Jesus Christ you can't tell the truth for anything... I'm happy to post that email if you'd like. It's pretty basic - a distributor inserting himself into a situation to try to help without being asked to do so... I'd say that's pretty commendable. I did that on my own to make sure you were ok. THEN and only then did you see an opportunity to make your whole populated playfield story up. Never before was it mentioned... Only when I do a good thing and try to see if I can get you a status do you all of a sudden have a problem with me. I think you're conniving, calculated, and have a very skewed moral compass. As a matter of fact after your tirade to JJP, which Jack knew was BS, I told him as I tried to figure out what was up with you... 'Jack I actually think he's trying to come after me to pressure you to give in to him since he may think you'll try to buy him off to save me some headaches'... It was just a suspicion then, but after I found all your earlier extortion emails yesterday from September I'm convinced you know exactly what you are doing. Creating a shit storm, involving me as a pawn, and trying to cause trouble. Really disappointing someone even has that capacity to be like that.
I didn't post here on Pinside and start anything - YOU did. I am telling the truth of who you are and what you did. I had no choice to defend myself when you are on here posting lies... You tried to EXTORT a special deal from JJP for yourself in the form of a $ 3,000 discount on another game (so much for outrage against JJP that you wanted more JJP in the future, huh ?) and were rightfully rebuffed, you said nobody online would know, you'd lie and post you got an unpopulated playfield and were ok with that, even saying you'd sign an NDA ! You didn't give 2 shits about the community in general - you cared about you and didn't care who got shafted. No different than what you are doing to me right now. Why don't you tell each and every reader in this thread how you were willing to sell them all out for your own personal benefit ? If you got your deal you'd be on here lying to them - singing everyone's praises, mine and JJP's if they gave in. Nice guy folks huh ?
You know you're BAD for the community which is why I'm standing up against you. I care about the hobby. The PF issues sucked, yes of course, I'm not saying in any shape or form that customers shouldn't be mad. BUT if you think these sort of tactics against a company and a distributor - lying and slandering people like you are - aren't going to make any of these companies feel all good about helping people more... Why would they believe anyone's claims about things if this sort of extortion is allowed to occur. Why would any distributor openly try to involve themselves in situations like I did when this is the thanks I get for it. I should have been like everyone else and kept my mouth shut instead of standing up for my customer and taking the initiative to make sure you got what you were promised.
So... if you really want to do the right thing - POST THE EMAILS YOU SENT ON 9/9 AND 9/15 I sent you yesterday after I found them - and show everyone what really went down - how no mention of a populated playfield was made nor promised by me, and how you tried to extort JJP, and how you had nothing but glowing commentary about how I treated you then... Then try to explain when all of a sudden 4 months later all of this is now occurring. You got caught and overplayed your hand. Admit it.
POST THE EMAILS and show the community you are now using as your platform. I'm sure you're afraid to do so... Take my challenge and post them in full as I sent them to you yesterday. I have nothing to hide, I'm telling every bit of truth here, YOUR emails prove it - you're coming after me so post the emails and let the community you are using with your nonsense decide. Anyone dealing with you is susceptible to the same nonsense. I have 100's and 100's of people I've dealt with for years respectfully and successfully and it's funny you're the only one who has been so mistreated, that's weird huh ?

Joe even if all of this stuff that you are saying is true about Goetz, you still look bad by not saying that JJP screwed him by not standing behind their product. You should be as pissed off at JJP as you are at Goetz and talking to Jack in this same manner. Jack has caused every bit of this situation but you wont publicly admit it and for that reason you would probably be better off by not posting all of this bullshit on here and just not say anything at all.

#4073 4 months ago

No problem Joe, we can keep this on high flame in public, your choice. Or you could have called, as you should have.

You promised me, on the phone, that JJP would treat me better than standard customers, as they supposedly treat all their Collectors Edition customers with preference.

I asked whether that meant I would be made whole in case the described issues would arise, you said yes.

So, if Standard and LE owners get a playfield, where does that leave me? Can anyone blame a customer at that point to ask for a populated playfield? And if that is denied, is it a terrible idea that the customer comes up with the offer to buy yet another pinball from you, in good faith as I had no idea at that point that you would "forget" your promise, at a discount?

Win-win for everyone?

Yes, the promise was made on the phone and you are having a field day with the fact that I trusted you, that I have no recording of said phone call.

That is why I recommend to everyone to do business with Joe in writing.

Not once have you called me to work things out as you should have. I sure tried to call you. Instead you threatened me with legal action and you publically attack your Collectors Edition buyer.

#4074 4 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Joe even if all of this stuff that you are saying is true about Goetz, you still look bad by not saying that JJP screwed him by not standing behind their product. You should be as pissed off at JJP as you are at Goetz and talking to Jack in this same manner. Jack has caused every bit of this situation but you wont publicly admit it and for that reason you would probably be better off by not posting all of this bullshit on here and just not say anything at all.

It is true... that's the sad part... I'm a pawn here due to his anger. Nobody else here took the path he took to try to hurt people. Period. Everyone else's moral compass is straight.

Of course everyone deserved / deserved the game they bought. Period end of story. That's understood. A distributor can fight, argue, cajole, etc.. You don't think every single JJP and Stern distributor fought for their customers ? I didn't sell one NIB game for any company affected from maybe Aug - Oct until we all felt the issues were resolved, etc... I took a stand. I have ZERO control over warranty issues. All I can do is fight for my customers... I do feel that JJP at least stepped out in front of the problem to the point of Jack calling each and every customer. The resolution they came up with is theirs - I don't own JJP.

Here's my point why what Goetz is doing is SO BAD for everyone... Let's say a company says - submit your claim we'll take each one under review and decide each case on it's merits. Once it's shown that something like what he is doing - lying, extortion, public bashing, etc.. is possible then do you think they are going to look at every case with a jaded eye ? Of course they are... maybe people who deserve something get something less. You guys can't let this guy win because you all lose then... It's got to be done fairly with respect on trust on both sides. I'm sticking my neck out here to protect the process and all of you - what this guy is doing is GOOD for him, and BAD for everyone else. It's just WRONG. Aside from what he tried to do to me, it's morally wrong. And from where I sit as a distributor it's only going to make the next thing like this that may occur (hopefully never) much worse. Stern never even came out and said anything about their PF issues did that ? I'm not sure - maybe they did. If not then that's kind of a shitty way to handle it but it makes me think stuff like this is why they just choose to keep their mouths shut. Look at me I reached out to help the guy and all of sudden I'm his target.

As far as me posting anything - it's not my place, I don't own these companies... I own PinballSTAR. Do you make public policy statements about the companies you are employed by ? Probably not... I'm not privy to the decision making processes on warranties, etc... We can help our customers to the best of our ability but ultimately that's all we can do.

That said, I think each company probably handled it as they felt best and fairly. No not everyone will be happy. There are people with pooling that is hidden and not an issue who will get a new unpopulated PF, and there are people who have cracking who deserved more... As I've said it's a shitty situation for everyone. There is no lack of concern for customers on my part. I get it. Frankly I GET why Goetz is mad, he has every right to be mad. But to do what he did is just morally wrong. He could do the same thing to any of you if you sold a game to him.

#4075 4 months ago
Quoted from DerGoetz:

No problem Joe, we can keep this on high flame in public, your choice. Or you could have called, as you should have.
You promised me, on the phone, that JJP would treat me better than standard customers, as they supposedly treat all their Collectors Edition customers with preference.
I asked whether that meant I would be made whole in case the described issues would arise, you said yes.
So, if Standard and LE owners get a playfield, where does that leave me? Can anyone blame a customer at that point to ask for a populated playfield? And if that is denied, is it a terrible idea that the customer comes up with the offer to buy yet another pinball from you, in good faith as I had no idea at that point that you would "forget" your promise, at a discount?
Win-win for everyone?
Yes, the promise was made on the phone and you are having a field day with the fact that I trusted you, that I have no recording of said phone call.
That is why I recommend to everyone to do business with Joe in writing.
Not once have you called me to work things out as you should have. I sure tried to call you. Instead you threatened me with legal action and you publically attack your Collectors Edition buyer.

POST YOUR EMAILS...
Until then your words here are meaningless.
I sent them to you, you obviously are unwilling to post them.
Now you state I DIDN'T promise you a populated playfield... Why don't you post the email to Jack where you said that's what I said and ripped me to shreds. Also said here on Pinside.
You lie.
POST YOUR EMAILS... then you and I can shut up and let everyone else figure out who's telling the truth and who's conniving ?

#4076 4 months ago

Round 3... FIGHT!

13
#4077 4 months ago
Quoted from PinballSTAR:

You didn't give 2 shits about the community in general - you cared about you and didn't care who got shafted. No different than what you are doing to me right now. Why don't you tell each and every reader in this thread how you were willing to sell them all out for your own personal benefit ? If you got your deal you'd be on here lying to them - singing everyone's praises, mine and JJP's if they gave in. Nice guy folks huh ?

Now you are being unfair.

As individual customers, we (DerGoetz, Who-Day, etc.) aren't in a position to fix this issue for the community. For example: Years ago, Stern provided a populated AC/DC PF to me correct the cloudy lower PF problem. Does the fact that I received a populated PF imply that I don't give a shit about other AC/DC owners? No. Should I have refused the populated PF until a community wide solution was developed? Of course not!

As a distributor, YOU have the leverage...the larger the distributor, the larger the leverage. The distributors are in the best position to "Judge" if a claim is valid AND monitor how many defective units were sold through their distributorship. At the moment, we have no idea how many defective PF's have been sold. If the issues are rare enough, I would imagine it would be easier to negotiate with Stern on resolving the issues.

Bottom line: Having been in this situation, it just seems like distributors aren't fighting for us (in general...not talking about you specifically).

-1
#4078 4 months ago
Quoted from Manic:

Ha. So essentially in this case the dist and JJP have you in an NDA situation.

That is an incorrect assumption. I was simply asked by all parties involved to keep the details of my specific case out of social media, specifically pinside. I signed no paperwork, and I'm under no legal obligation to do anything. I'm simply trying to be nice, that's all.

-2
#4079 4 months ago

Joe, you are completely losing your temper and professionalism in public.

#4080 4 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Now you are being unfair.
As individual customers, we (DerGoetz, Who-Day, etc.) aren't in a position to fix this issue for the community. For example: Years ago, Stern provided a populated AC/DC PF to me correct the cloudy lower PF problem. Does the fact that I received a populated PF imply that I don't give a shit about other AC/DC owners? No. Should I have refused the populated PF until a community wide solution was developed? Of course not!
As a distributor, YOU have the leverage...the larger the distributor, the larger the leverage. The distributors are in the best position to "Judge" if a claim is valid AND monitor how many defective units were sold through their distributorship. At the moment, we have no idea how many defective PF's have been sold. If the issues are rare enough, I would imagine it would be easier to negotiate with Stern on resolving the issues.
Bottom line: Having been in this situation, it just seems like distributors aren't fighting for us (in general...not talking about you specifically).

Absolutely agree - we have more leverage than you... And I'm sure we all fought for you - every distributor with every company. You stated earlier how I did exactly that for you with CG on another matter. But, again, we don't have the final say. I spoke with my wallet and didn't buy / sell any products for MONTHS until I was comfortable the pf issues were resolved. Did you see me at ReplayFX ? Did you see me at York ? Nope - I shut down and didn't do shows, etc... JJP shut down their line and didn't ship or sell anything until they had a handle on it... Were other companies coming out with new games ? Were other distributors at shows selling games with no idea if they were good or not ? So ya, Steve I did take a stand. But like you we only can do so much.

#4081 4 months ago
Quoted from DerGoetz:

Joe, you are completely losing your temper and professionalism in public.
And you are confusing me with Hillary Clinton

I'm glad you are now grasping at straws... No temper here and I've gotten 50 emails from customers who know how I operate and treat people and they know it's not as you state.
Standing up for myself after you lied about me...
Did I offer you a populated playfield or not ? You told Jack and Pinside I did and now you're silent on that which is what started all this... Answer it - yes or no ?

POST YOUR EMAILS... Prove what you say is true.
Your silence is golden.

What I'm doing is standing up to a bully. You tried to strongarm JJP and me... Threatened things if you didn't get your way then went and did them. Now you have egg on your face because you got caught... If you do this to me you would do it to anyone on this forum. And you are not doing any good for the whole PF process either.

POST YOUR EMAILS.

#4082 4 months ago
Quoted from PinballSTAR:

Absolutely agree - we have more leverage than you... And I'm sure we all fought for you - every distributor with every company. You stated earlier how I did exactly that for you with CG on another matter. But, again, we don't have the final say. I spoke with my wallet and didn't buy / sell any products for MONTHS until I was comfortable the pf issues were resolved. Did you see me at ReplayFX ? Did you see me at York ? Nope - I shut down and didn't do shows, etc... JJP shut down their line and didn't ship or sell anything until they had a handle on it... Were other companies coming out with new games ? Were other distributors at shows selling games with no idea if they were good or not ? So ya, Steve I did take a stand. But like you we only can do so much.

Joe, I really don't know why you are getting drug through the mud here. You are one of the few distributors that actually post on Pinside, and the way things are going I could see you not wanting to in the future. You can only do so much and I understand the frustration, but people aiming it at you is so ridiculous to me.

I doubt I will be buying a NIB anytime in the future, but if I do you will be the first one I will call.

38
#4083 4 months ago

This is complete nonsense.

The guy dropped 12K on a pinball machine and is essentially taking it up the ass. I don’t care if the buyer is a liar, a bank robber or whether he cheated on his SATs. It’s all irrelevant. What is relevant is that he paid 12K for a pinball machine.

The distributor and manufacturer each got their share of the 12K and the buyer is left with a piece of shit. What other industry operates like this?

#4084 4 months ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

This is complete nonsense.
The guy dropped 12K on a pinball machine and is essentially taking it up the ass. I don’t care if the buyer is a liar, a bank robber or whether he cheated on his SATs. It’s all irrelevant. What is relevant is that he paid 12K for a pinball machine.
The distributor and manufacturer each got their share of the 12K and the buyer is left with a piece of shit. What other industry operates like this?

I know. Can you imagine any other product that when you buy new you need to inspect it closely to be sure its not defective?? I like buying NIB to avoid issues and know that what im getting is 100% new and working condition.

That security feeling of buying NIB is gone now...

#4085 4 months ago
Quoted from Rager170:

I know. Can you imagine any other product that when you buy new you need to inspect it closely to be sure its not defective?? I like buying NIB to avoid issues and know that what im getting is 100% new and working condition.
That security feeling of buying NIB is gone now...

And now, somehow, this thread/Goetz may affect the whole play field process.

#4086 4 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Now you are being unfair.
As individual customers, we (DerGoetz, Who-Day, etc.) aren't in a position to fix this issue for the community. For example: Years ago, Stern provided a populated AC/DC PF to me correct the cloudy lower PF problem. Does the fact that I received a populated PF imply that I don't give a shit about other AC/DC owners? No. Should I have refused the populated PF until a community wide solution was developed? Of course not!
As a distributor, YOU have the leverage...the larger the distributor, the larger the leverage. The distributors are in the best position to "Judge" if a claim is valid AND monitor how many defective units were sold through their distributorship. At the moment, we have no idea how many defective PF's have been sold. If the issues are rare enough, I would imagine it would be easier to negotiate with Stern on resolving the issues.
Bottom line: Having been in this situation, it just seems like distributors aren't fighting for us (in general...not talking about you specifically).

I completely agree....this guy lost me at extortion....he can't be serious...the guy was looking for a creative solution so he didn't have to take the financial hit yet this knucklehead calls it extortion....all these distributors should be eliminated as they are completely useless

#4087 4 months ago
Quoted from PinballSTAR:

You didn't care about a resolution in general - just for you at all costs.

Just an observation here, but it should NOT be Goetz's job to be concerned with how other victims of defective playfields are rectified, or made whole. That job is, and always will be, JJP. He need only be concerned with how HE is made whole. I work in the auto industry, and the only thing that could/would sort of link an "end user" (i.e. customer) to other victims is a class action lawsuit, and even then the linking element is counsel (lawyers), not dealerships or even the OEM.

I have a pooling/rippled Wonka LE. FWIW, and have not contacted anyone on it because I have zero flaking/chipping.

-1
#4088 4 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

I completely agree....this guy lost me at extortion....he can't be serious...the guy was looking for a creative solution so he didn't have to take the financial hit yet this knucklehead calls it extortion....all these distributors should be eliminated as they are completely useless

That's a great idea, call for the elimination of a guy who is actually helping people. I don't understand this thought process, get rid of distributors like Joe who are actually trying to help customers. Instead buy direct from the company who put out the bad product and isn't standing behind it....

10
#4089 4 months ago

"Jersey Jack Takes Care of their CE Buyers"

Did you say that? Yes or No?

Did they? Take care of their CE Buyer?

If not, then it is YOUR resposibility to take care of YOUR Pinball Buyer. If you didn't make him whole, you fucked up.

#4090 4 months ago

delete double

11
#4091 4 months ago
Quoted from PinballSTAR:

Absolutely agree - we have more leverage than you... And I'm sure we all fought for you - every distributor with every company. You stated earlier how I did exactly that for you with CG on another matter. But, again, we don't have the final say. I spoke with my wallet and didn't buy / sell any products for MONTHS until I was comfortable the pf issues were resolved. Did you see me at ReplayFX ? Did you see me at York ? Nope - I shut down and didn't do shows, etc... JJP shut down their line and didn't ship or sell anything until they had a handle on it... Were other companies coming out with new games ? Were other distributors at shows selling games with no idea if they were good or not ? So ya, Steve I did take a stand. But like you we only can do so much.

Quoted from PtownPin:

I completely agree....this guy lost me at extortion....he can't be serious...the guy was looking for a creative solution so he didn't have to take the financial hit yet this knucklehead calls it extortion....all these distributors should be eliminated as they are completely useless

As someone who has been purchased NIB since 2004, the general vibe I've gotten from Stern distributors over the years is this: Stern is fairly unresponsive to "us" (i.e. it's distributors), so if you have a serious quality issue, you need to deal directly with Stern.

Since a very large % of pin purchases are from remote distributors (and are unable to come to your home to fix something), the distributors end up being useless for most transactions. So, a pile of money is being made by the distributors with no insurance for selling the defective products to it's customers. To be honest, even when it comes to getting replacement parts, you are at Sterns mercy! Most recently, I've been waiting 6 weeks to get a couple parts for my JP2! (and need to follow-up with Chas today). Distributor unable to help expedite. A complete shit show, unfortunately.

#4092 4 months ago
Quoted from thirdedition:

That's a great idea, call for the elimination of a guy who is actually helping people. I don't understand this thought process, get rid of distributors like Joe who are actually trying to help customers. Instead buy direct from the company who put out the bad product and isn't standing behind it....

Not saying he didn't try, but please explain how he helped solve the problem. By making a phone call to Jack? It sucks, but they have ZERO pull with manufacturers....I'm not saying he's not a good distributor, but when the shit hits the fan they have zero impact with the manufacturer....

12
#4093 4 months ago
Quoted from thirdedition:

I don't understand this thought process, get rid of distributors like Joe who are actually trying to help customers.

Joe is probably a decent guy, I dont doubt that a bit but if distributors have no influence on the manufacturer then why do we need them? I would just rather buy factory direct and cut out the middle man and have the savings passed on to me.

#4094 4 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

As someone who has been purchased NIB since 2004, the general vibe I've gotten from Stern distributors over the years is this: Stern is fairly unresponsive to "us" (i.e. it's distributors), so if you have a serious quality issue, you need to deal directly with Stern.
Since a very large % of pin purchases are from remote distributors (and are unable to come to your home to fix something), the distributors end up being useless for most transactions. So, a pile of money is being made by the distributors with no insurance for selling the defective products to it's customers. To be honest, even when it comes to getting replacement parts, you are at Sterns mercy! Most recently, I've been waiting 6 weeks to get a couple parts for my JP2! (and need to follow-up with Chas today). Distributor unable to help expedite. A complete shit show, unfortunately.

I've been waiting on a POTC part for months....Apparently their still out of stock

#4095 4 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Joe is probably a decent guy, I dont doubt that a bit but if distributors have no influence on the manufacturer then why do we need them? I would just rather buy factory direct and cut out the middle man and have the savings passed on to me.

The only influence they have is to stop selling their products, which their not gonna do because its easy money.

#4096 4 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Joe is probably a decent guy, I dont doubt that a bit but if distributors have no influence on the manufacturer then why do we need them? I would just rather buy factory direct and cut out the middle man and have the savings passed on to me.

That would be awesome. Like my bubble hockey I bought directly from Ice. My local distributor who sells pinballs wanted another 500 bucks and that’s not even the nhl version. Time to change pass savings onto customer.

#4097 4 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

a pile of money is being made by the distributors with no insurance for selling the defective products to it's customers.

I agree with this 1000%.

21
#4098 4 months ago

I think one thing we can all agree on (unless you're a total moron) is that there needs to be a lot of changes in the pinball industry when it comes to buyer protection. The customer is the LAST person that should be losing his hard earned dollars when a defective product is sold to him.

#4099 4 months ago

If you don't like dimples ( big ones) like me, buy a protector.
And if you don't want pooling your Stern JP or jjp wonka make a anti pooling protector like i do for my machines.

IMG_20200121_235955~01 (resized).jpg
#4100 4 months ago
Quoted from pinballwil:

If you don't like dimples ( big ones) like me, buy a protector.
And if you don't want pooling your Stern JP or jjp wonka make a anti pooling protector like i do for my machines.[quoted image]

For those protectors, do you have to strip down the playfield to add them? Sounds like a chore for sure... Why dont manufacturers just add these to the games from the beginning and add $100 to the price?

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