Anything from mid to late September on seems to be ok. At least no reported issues on pins from then on.

Someone has to buy it nib at some point for us to be able to buy a nice used huo tho lol...

you'll have to be more specific.

True....its crazy to me how many people buy NIB without even playing the game....even with all these issues they still keep buying....

I think we need a ref for this thread....

Plain and simple. No one wants to get fucked. Distro. Manufacturer. Customer.

I don't know what hard-feelings you're harboring over something I supposedly said on Facebook, that bent your bumper so much that you feel it necessary to go off-topic and air it out in public. But you can feel free to write me privately so we can work it out on our own, if you'd like. But as far as how it relates to the discussion at hand, I'm confident it didn't involve me lying, slandering and manipulating facts, to get what I want.

Joe first of all i will say that I've heard alot of good things about you and im not trying to get personal with you so let's just get that out of the way right now. What i don’t understand is why you are trying to make Goetz look so bad. Him trying to cut a deal with JJP for 3K doesn’t piss me off at all, the man is just trying to reach a resolution with JJP on the defective product that he bought and THEY ARENT WILLING TO MAKE IT RIGHT WITH HIM. Sorry for the caps but I just want everyone to know that if they buy a game off of JJP JACK is not going to stand behind his product and make it right for them.

Goetz might be the biggest lying piece of sh*t on this earth, i have no idea, but what i do know is he should have got a free populated playfield from JJP and nothing less. I like others on here would like to hear what YOU think is an acceptable resolution for Goetz? Thats a very simple question that shouldn’t be hard to answer. Are you on JJP’s side or the side of your customers?

If this guy Goetz felt 100% that it was a fair and equitable deal for everyone involved, and that it would be judged as such by anyone who knew about it, it wouldn't have even crossed his mind to suggest an NDA.

He's just trying to take care of himself and get some kind of monetary resolution to his defective purchase. If JACK would have did the right thing and gave him a populated playfield it would have never gotten to the point that Goetz would have had to do that in the first place. Am i right?

I'm sorry, but the end does not justify the means here. I'm in the same boat as him with my Wonka SE. I'd rather not have this go nuclear so that the rest of us get screwed by JJP.

You can be angry and want to be made whole, but you cannot be unreasonable and unwilling to negotiate.

-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107

Joe is the one that made it go nuclear not me and i hate to tell you this but you have already been screwed by JJP because Jack has already made it clear that he is not giving customers populated playfields.

Go back and re-read my post. Focus closely on the "negotiate" part.

-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107

Alright you've made you point but let's not forget this is not just JJP.
Stern has not giving out any populated playfields either and won't

.
I guess im not following you. There is nothing to negotiate. If you buy a game with a defective playfield the manufacturer should send you a new populated playfield to put back in your game period.

You’re right, Stern is guilty as well. I never said that they wasnt but we aren’t talking about Stern right now.

Yes. Ive been asking about this a lot and it seems like the safe cutoff date is October. My distributor said he has them from August build date and I told him id keep waiting..

They may not have shipped yet, but I know Stern has agreed to ship populated playfields to at least 2 JP pro owners that I know. Confirmed by their distributors. JJP has flat out stated this will not happen for their customers.

Well, there are several possible things that a manufacturer could do to resolve a defective playfield...

1) Arrive with a team of employees to provide an entire new machine and remove the existing defective one.
2) Ship a new machine, requesting that you ship the defective one back.
3) Send a new populated playfield, requesting that you send the defective one back.
4) Send a new un-populated playfield, telling you to just trash the defective one.
5) Tell you that "we have no warranty on playfields...tough luck".

Most customers would probably agree that #1 and #5 are unreasonable, but whether #2, #3, or #4 are reasonable depends on the person (and therefore are "negotiable").

So as of today, Goetz still has a shit play field and nothing has been rectified?

Yup

You Goetz what you deserve.

you Goetz nothing! Good day, Sir!

Have you heard anything from JJP?

I am in regular communication with them. I've been asked by my distributor and JJP to not discuss my case at this time.

-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107

You are a handful, Joe.

I pointed out to you that the POTC CE that I played in town had chipping and pooling.

I asked what would happen should the same happen to me.

I asked before making the purchase and that was ground FOR making the purchase. And I told you that.

You told me on the phone that "JJP takes special care of their CE customers and that I would be made whole".

I then had the exact and discussed playfield issue happen to me and I contactef you while you were on vacation. You did not get back with a solution. A day or two later was when Jack made his phone calls, which I thanked him for. I told Jack on the phone that I find his solution unsatisfying but did not throw you under the bus during that phone call.

I left it at that and was done with you and JJP due to your actions.

When the topic came up on the forum I posted about my experience.

Then one of your friends contacted you and only now, that it was public, did you care.

You made sure to contact Jack and myself right away to make me out to be the scumbag, even threatened me with legal action and boasted that I have no recording of said phone call you and I had, no proof of the promise you made.

Which is correct, I only do business in writing with people I do not trust. I trusted you at the time.

Point is, you promised me PREFERRED treatment, I now got the same treatment as anyone else.

I have NO use for an unpopulated playfield, I wrote you and Jack that. It's a waste of Jacks money, shipping and my space. All I can do is sell it with the pinball.

I offered that I would be happy with a price break on the coming Guns and Roses that you told me about in January 2019. That is on the other hand correct.

You giving me a small break would not have cost you a dime, you would have sold a pin for Jack, I would have continued to be a customer of both yourself and JJP.

Instead you threw Jack under the bus by promising something he cannot keep. And now start a public shit storm. Be my guest.

And if you, as threatened, want to take legal action against me it will be popcorn time on Pinside.

Like I said theres always 3 sides to every story....being a JJP or Stern distributor must be brutal when there are major issues

He could have said "no promises" and all would have been fine.

The moral of the story is ALWAYS buy used. That’s what I have started to do.

These distributors essentially have ZERO pull with the manufacturers....Stern actually has the cash to deal with these problems....JJP doesn't .... I'm sure if Jack was being honest he would agree that all these shitty games should be replaced...negotiating a discounted deal on another game is really a win win for both parties.

I'm with you on that, but good luck finding a POTC CE used

No doubt....I'll never buy another NIB game from JJP or Stern....possibly remake #4 depending on the title. I've had great luck with CGC

Well they aren't, so what can be done about it?

People need to stop buying NIB machines. But they won't..

This is the Pinside I have come to know and love: DRAMA .

How many different arguments are going on here? 4 or 5?

I count eleventeen.

Ha. So essentially in this case the dist and JJP have you in an NDA situation. The same thing they were trying to negatively portray Goetz for offering.

Personally if he spent the ridiculous bucks on a CE and couldn't get a populated replacement I'd have no problem with him paying 3k less on the "next" CE. It's hardly a sure win for him. The CE isn't worth 3k over the LE in any real world way and then he has to commit to playing russian roulette with the next JJP purchase. Not sure I'd want that deal.

You're gambling when you buy Stern NIB also but it seems like with JJP it's the heavy hitters table. Even more money on the line.

Yes with less hyperbole we know "most" of these machines (from either company) arrive ok. But if you are risk-averse NIB purchases might be something to avoid. Often it's the principle more than the money.

They are essentially telling you that you're stuck with a new product of lesser quality than what others have received for the same money.

For some reason this irritates me.

JJP should be holding their playfield manufactures responsible for the costs to replace all around. We do this in my industry all the time and the manufacturers understand this...

Totally agree although once they accept the play field and start adding components they probably own it.

I think the playfields have been offered,but Mirco is not going to pay for populated playfields

That will not resolve the issues, if anything make them worse. Would push used prices up too and back to not enough machines to go round to meet demand.

What would you propose to fill the hole in the market?

That shouldn't matter. These playfields are manufactured with the intensions of fastening things to the playfield. If by doing so it causes some manufacturers defect to surface then it should still be replaced. Whether it was damaged out of the crate or damaged by means of working within the intended measures of which the playfield was built for.

The only answer is for these companies to up their quality on these games and to stand behind their products or they aren't going to be around long term. I definitely do not want to see them fail but if they are going to screw their customers I really shouldn’t care if they do either.

Meant to say that too. Have to qc these things before using...

At the end of the day the distributors should be helping their customers out and they are not! What a lot of people don't seem to realize is the distributors are making over $1000 on most games they sell. People need to stop buying NIB games. Most claimed after the Ghostbusters fiasco they were done with NIB.

Lucid post. Just a few comments:

- One thing I've learned over the years is there is no such thing as preferred treatment! I've dealt with 6 distributors over the years and they all seem to be at the mercy of the manufacturer. In a sane world, the distributors would have more clout.
- I totally agree that unpopulated PF's are a really wasteful solution for 99.5% of the population. PF swaps are wildly complicated.
- I like your suggestion of a price break on a future game, but I would be a bit more aggressive. For example, a Stern Premium for the price of a Pro...which at Stern's BOM cost difference is a no-brainer!

In any event, sorry about the grief and hope something good comes of it.

I too liked the idea of asking for a discount on a future game....its a win win for everyone.....the distributor didn't like it at all....shocker he won't get his cut

Eventually, distributors will be a thing of the past. When big bucks are on the line and the manufacturer will not acquiesce, they are rendered useless.

My take on dimples and CGC is the current quality of playfield wood is WAY worse for every manufacturer making playfields today, not just CGC, but everyone. It has been said that the quality of the plywood was way better in the 90’s and before, and I believe it. Now I do believe CGC is using the best wood they can find, but my MBrLE looks like its been hit with about a thousand tiny ballpean hammers... I’ve seen quite a few original WMS MB’s around here in the Phoenix area that are still as smooth as the day they came out of the box, minus severe chipping around the scoop. My remake, although no where near as bad as a Stern, had a great looking playfield out of the box, the silk screen process was perfect. If they could have just put it on a nicer piece of wood with a nice old fashoined real high VOC clear coat would have been better. So not as bad as Stern or JJP, but not as good as old WMS/Bally/Midway used to sell. Maybe it will dimple flat over time... right

Honestly I don't know why they don't eliminate them all together

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/is-the-distributorship-model-for-pinball-outdated

Absolutely not true.