(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

9 months ago



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There are 5310 posts in this topic. You are on page 81 of 107.
#4001 4 months ago
Quoted from Rager170:

When you say "latest run", what time period are you referring to? This is the game im waiting on...

Anything from mid to late September on seems to be ok. At least no reported issues on pins from then on.

#4002 4 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

I love their games, and have owned all except Wonka. The only one I have left is my POTC LE....I see zero reason to ever buy another NIB game from JJP or Stern...in my market nice used ones come up for sale all the time.

Someone has to buy it nib at some point for us to be able to buy a nice used huo tho lol...

-1
#4003 4 months ago
Quoted from JodyG:

I hope you have paid Joe's kindness forward to others. Unfortunately, you were a jackass to me on Facebook when I offered help in a thread you posted in one of the groups. We don't need that crap in this hobby.

you'll have to be more specific.

#4004 4 months ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

Someone has to buy it nib at some point for us to be able to buy a nice used huo tho lol...

True....its crazy to me how many people buy NIB without even playing the game....even with all these issues they still keep buying....

#4005 4 months ago

I think we need a ref for this thread....

Plain and simple. No one wants to get fucked. Distro. Manufacturer. Customer.

#4006 4 months ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Unfortunately, you were a jackass to me on Facebook when I offered help in a thread you posted in one of the groups.

I don't know what hard-feelings you're harboring over something I supposedly said on Facebook, that bent your bumper so much that you feel it necessary to go off-topic and air it out in public. But you can feel free to write me privately so we can work it out on our own, if you'd like. But as far as how it relates to the discussion at hand, I'm confident it didn't involve me lying, slandering and manipulating facts, to get what I want.

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#4007 4 months ago
Quoted from PinballSTAR:

JJP did the right thing to rebuff him even though it would have been easier to pay him off and shut him up.

Joe first of all i will say that I've heard alot of good things about you and im not trying to get personal with you so let's just get that out of the way right now. What i don’t understand is why you are trying to make Goetz look so bad. Him trying to cut a deal with JJP for 3K doesn’t piss me off at all, the man is just trying to reach a resolution with JJP on the defective product that he bought and THEY ARENT WILLING TO MAKE IT RIGHT WITH HIM. Sorry for the caps but I just want everyone to know that if they buy a game off of JJP JACK is not going to stand behind his product and make it right for them.

Goetz might be the biggest lying piece of sh*t on this earth, i have no idea, but what i do know is he should have got a free populated playfield from JJP and nothing less. I like others on here would like to hear what YOU think is an acceptable resolution for Goetz? Thats a very simple question that shouldn’t be hard to answer. Are you on JJP’s side or the side of your customers?

#4008 4 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

the man is just trying to reach a resolution with JJP on the defective product that he bought and THEY ARENT WILLING TO MAKE IT RIGHT WITH HIM.

If this guy Goetz felt 100% that it was a fair and equitable deal for everyone involved, and that it would be judged as such by anyone who knew about it, it wouldn't have even crossed his mind to suggest an NDA.

#4009 4 months ago
Quoted from bigehrl:

If this guy Goetz felt 100% that it was a fair and equitable deal for everyone involved, and that it would be judged as such by anyone who knew about it, it wouldn't have even crossed his mind to suggest an NDA.

He's just trying to take care of himself and get some kind of monetary resolution to his defective purchase. If JACK would have did the right thing and gave him a populated playfield it would have never gotten to the point that Goetz would have had to do that in the first place. Am i right?

#4010 4 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

He's just trying to take care of himself and get some kind of monetary resolution to his defective purchase. If JACK would have did the right thing and gave him a populated playfield it would have never gotten to the point that Goetz would have had to do that in the first place. Am i right?

I'm sorry, but the end does not justify the means here. I'm in the same boat as him with my Wonka SE. I'd rather not have this go nuclear so that the rest of us get screwed by JJP.

You can be angry and want to be made whole, but you cannot be unreasonable and unwilling to negotiate.

-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107

#4011 4 months ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

I'm sorry, but the end does not justify the means here. I'm in the same boat as him with my Wonka SE. I'd rather not have this go nuclear so that the rest of us get screwed by JJP.
You can be angry and want to be made whole, but you cannot be unreasonable and unwilling to negotiate.
-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107

Joe is the one that made it go nuclear not me and i hate to tell you this but you have already been screwed by JJP because Jack has already made it clear that he is not giving customers populated playfields.

#4012 4 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Joe is the one that made it go nuclear not me and i hate to tell you this but you have already been screwed by JJP because Jack has already made it clear that he is not giving customers populated playfields.

Go back and re-read my post. Focus closely on the "negotiate" part.

-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107

#4013 4 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Joe is the one that made it go nuclear not me and i hate to tell you this but you have already been screwed by JJP because Jack has already made it clear that he is not giving customers populated playfields.

Alright you've made you point but let's not forget this is not just JJP.
Stern has not giving out any populated playfields either and won't

#4014 4 months ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

Go back and re-read my post. Focus closely on the "negotiate" part.
-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107

.
I guess im not following you. There is nothing to negotiate. If you buy a game with a defective playfield the manufacturer should send you a new populated playfield to put back in your game period.

#4015 4 months ago
Quoted from romulusx:

Alright you've made you point but let's not forget this is not just JJP.
Stern has not giving out any populated playfields either and won't

You’re right, Stern is guilty as well. I never said that they wasnt but we aren’t talking about Stern right now.

#4016 4 months ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

Anything from mid to late September on seems to be ok. At least no reported issues on pins from then on.

Yes. Ive been asking about this a lot and it seems like the safe cutoff date is October. My distributor said he has them from August build date and I told him id keep waiting..

#4017 4 months ago
Quoted from romulusx:

Alright you've made you point but let's not forget this is not just JJP.
Stern has not giving out any populated playfields either and won't

They may not have shipped yet, but I know Stern has agreed to ship populated playfields to at least 2 JP pro owners that I know. Confirmed by their distributors. JJP has flat out stated this will not happen for their customers.

#4018 4 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

.
I guess im not following you. There is nothing to negotiate. If you buy a game with a defective playfield the manufacturer should send you a new populated playfield to put back in your game period.

Well, there are several possible things that a manufacturer could do to resolve a defective playfield...

1) Arrive with a team of employees to provide an entire new machine and remove the existing defective one.
2) Ship a new machine, requesting that you ship the defective one back.
3) Send a new populated playfield, requesting that you send the defective one back.
4) Send a new un-populated playfield, telling you to just trash the defective one.
5) Tell you that "we have no warranty on playfields...tough luck".

Most customers would probably agree that #1 and #5 are unreasonable, but whether #2, #3, or #4 are reasonable depends on the person (and therefore are "negotiable").

#4019 4 months ago

So as of today, Goetz still has a shit play field and nothing has been rectified?

#4020 4 months ago
Quoted from JodyG:

It is still possible to get a complete playfield swap if the damage is bad enough with Stern. 5 key people at Stern have to okay it, and you may have to wait a few months, but at least it is an option in some cases. Offering a bare playfield that people haven't received in half a year on a premium game from a company that bills themselves as such is more than a bit of a failure, IMO. Clearcoat falling off a month or two old game is not a customer problem, it is a JJP problem. The customer shouldn't be made to feel like shit for asking that they get what they paid a premium for in a timely manner.

Yup

#4022 4 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

You Goetz what you deserve.

you Goetz nothing! Good day, Sir!

#4023 4 months ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

Go back and re-read my post. Focus closely on the "negotiate" part.
-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107

Have you heard anything from JJP?

#4024 4 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Have you heard anything from JJP?

I am in regular communication with them. I've been asked by my distributor and JJP to not discuss my case at this time.

-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107

10
#4025 4 months ago
Quoted from PinballSTAR:

Ya you're wrong - maybe ask before you too make up stories...
Customer asked 'If JJP would take care of me' if there were issues, my reply as always is 'Yes JJP does their best to take care of customer issues' same statement as I always would make to anyone as it is my feeling with any company I represent, especially JJP. That was the end of any discussion prior to sale.
Goetz now months later claims he specifically asked me if they would give him a populated playfield. Totally untrue, period end of story. Funny that this claim of what he asked me months ago NOW only comes to light - it was never mentioned to me when he first reported the issue, never mentioned to Jack on the phone with him when he called him like he did with many customers, never mentioned in his tech support / warranty ticket. Never once, but now only now to stir the pot.
I have zero authority to promise anything to any customer. Many customers will attest that if they ask a specific question out of my hands even if it's for any company to provide a screw or a plastic or something small to them I always will carbon tech support or sometimes with JJP, Jack himself to involve the people who make those decisions in the answer. I will NEVER ever answer a specific question on how something a manufacturer is responsible for will be handled later on - EVER, and I mean if it's a $ 5 part, NEVER. I have zero authority to do so. I will always take the time to email the company and involve the customer so they get the right answer to a specific question. So, Goetz claiming I promised him JJP would provide him a populated playfield is absolute nonsense.
So then unfortunately Goetz had PF issues. JJP decided everyone would get a populated playfield. I was involved in the process to get his warranty / ticket claim submitted. I think I even arranged for Jack to call Geotz personally which he did. Obviously Geotz isn't happy with JJP's response to the PF issues and that is his right. That was months ago. Fast forward to a few weeks ago - I noticed a post from Goetz on Pinside that he hadn't gotten his playfield yet. I wasn't sure myself on the timing of these coming out so I emailed Goetz and said 'I saw your post' and proceeded to say I wanted to get you an answer and I carboned Jack on the email to ensure he didn't get missed, etc... Jack replied they are getting made at this time and that was that. I actually took the initiative to reach out and involve myself in something I wasn't asked to do - why - because I DO care. Then, and only then, did Goetz start with his claim he
asked me for a populated playfield. Jack knows it's bullshit as he gets all the emails from me for years asking questions on the smallest of things I need to answer for a customer...
Funny not one other customer got promised a populated playfield, just him. Funny this claim of his only is now an issue months later and was never mentioned before in numerous communications with many different people - me, tech support, Jack, and even here on Pinside. You'd think maybe if he was promised something so grand he would have said when he submitted his ticket 'Oh by the way I was promised a populated playfield, here's the address to send it to'... Nope nothing, didn't mention it Jack, nor me. My thought is unfortunately he is at this point trying to discredit JJP and bully and strongarm them into giving him what he wants with this tactic. Bottom line if he's going to come here to slander me with a lie, I'm going to unfortunately have to defend myself as that post wondered about. He's mad at the outcome, I get it, many folk are upset with JJP and Stern and I understand it. But the story he's spinning is untrue folks. He's looking to get a rise and stir the pot. There are 100's of customers who know how I carry myself.

You are a handful, Joe.

I pointed out to you that the POTC CE that I played in town had chipping and pooling.

I asked what would happen should the same happen to me.

I asked before making the purchase and that was ground FOR making the purchase. And I told you that.

You told me on the phone that "JJP takes special care of their CE customers and that I would be made whole".

I then had the exact and discussed playfield issue happen to me and I contactef you while you were on vacation. You did not get back with a solution. A day or two later was when Jack made his phone calls, which I thanked him for. I told Jack on the phone that I find his solution unsatisfying but did not throw you under the bus during that phone call.

I left it at that and was done with you and JJP due to your actions.

When the topic came up on the forum I posted about my experience.

Then one of your friends contacted you and only now, that it was public, did you care.

You made sure to contact Jack and myself right away to make me out to be the scumbag, even threatened me with legal action and boasted that I have no recording of said phone call you and I had, no proof of the promise you made.

Which is correct, I only do business in writing with people I do not trust. I trusted you at the time.

Point is, you promised me PREFERRED treatment, I now got the same treatment as anyone else.

I have NO use for an unpopulated playfield, I wrote you and Jack that. It's a waste of Jacks money, shipping and my space. All I can do is sell it with the pinball.

I offered that I would be happy with a price break on the coming Guns and Roses that you told me about in January 2019. That is on the other hand correct.

You giving me a small break would not have cost you a dime, you would have sold a pin for Jack, I would have continued to be a customer of both yourself and JJP.

Instead you threw Jack under the bus by promising something he cannot keep. And now start a public shit storm. Be my guest.

And if you, as threatened, want to take legal action against me it will be popcorn time on Pinside.

#4026 4 months ago

Like I said theres always 3 sides to every story....being a JJP or Stern distributor must be brutal when there are major issues

#4027 4 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Like I said theres always 3 sides to every story....being a JJP or Stern distributor must be brutal when there are major issues

He could have said "no promises" and all would have been fine.

#4028 4 months ago

The moral of the story is ALWAYS buy used. That’s what I have started to do.

#4029 4 months ago
Quoted from DerGoetz:

He could have said "no promises" and all would have been fine.

These distributors essentially have ZERO pull with the manufacturers....Stern actually has the cash to deal with these problems....JJP doesn't .... I'm sure if Jack was being honest he would agree that all these shitty games should be replaced...negotiating a discounted deal on another game is really a win win for both parties.

#4030 4 months ago
Quoted from Skyemont:

The moral of the story is ALWAYS buy used. That’s what I have started to do.

I'm with you on that, but good luck finding a POTC CE used

#4031 4 months ago
Quoted from Skyemont:

The moral of the story is ALWAYS buy used. That’s what I have started to do.

No doubt....I'll never buy another NIB game from JJP or Stern....possibly remake #4 depending on the title. I've had great luck with CGC

#4032 4 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

.
I guess im not following you. There is nothing to negotiate. If you buy a game with a defective playfield the manufacturer should send you a new populated playfield to put back in your game period.

Well they aren't, so what can be done about it?

People need to stop buying NIB machines. But they won't..

#4033 4 months ago

This is the Pinside I have come to know and love: DRAMA .

How many different arguments are going on here? 4 or 5?

#4034 4 months ago
Quoted from NPO:

This is the Pinside I have come to know and love: DRAMA .
How many different arguments are going on here? 4 or 5?

I count eleventeen.

10
#4035 4 months ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

I am in regular communication with them. I've been asked by my distributor and JJP to not discuss my case at this time.
-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107

Ha. So essentially in this case the dist and JJP have you in an NDA situation. The same thing they were trying to negatively portray Goetz for offering.

Personally if he spent the ridiculous bucks on a CE and couldn't get a populated replacement I'd have no problem with him paying 3k less on the "next" CE. It's hardly a sure win for him. The CE isn't worth 3k over the LE in any real world way and then he has to commit to playing russian roulette with the next JJP purchase. Not sure I'd want that deal.

You're gambling when you buy Stern NIB also but it seems like with JJP it's the heavy hitters table. Even more money on the line.

Yes with less hyperbole we know "most" of these machines (from either company) arrive ok. But if you are risk-averse NIB purchases might be something to avoid. Often it's the principle more than the money.

They are essentially telling you that you're stuck with a new product of lesser quality than what others have received for the same money.

For some reason this irritates me.

#4036 4 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

These distributors essentially have ZERO pull with the manufacturers....Stern actually has the cash to deal with these problems....JJP doesn't .... I'm sure if Jack was being honest he would agree that all these shitty games should be replaced...negotiating a discounted deal on another game is really a win win for both parties.

JJP should be holding their playfield manufactures responsible for the costs to replace all around. We do this in my industry all the time and the manufacturers understand this...

#4037 4 months ago
Quoted from Rager170:

JJP should be holding their playfield manufactures responsible for the costs to replace all around. We do this in my industry all the time and the manufacturers understand this...

Totally agree although once they accept the play field and start adding components they probably own it.

#4038 4 months ago
Quoted from Rager170:

JJP should be holding their playfield manufactures responsible for the costs to replace all around. We do this in my industry all the time and the manufacturers understand this...

Quoted from Rager170:

JJP should be holding their playfield manufactures responsible for the costs to replace all around. We do this in my industry all the time and the manufacturers understand this...

I think the playfields have been offered,but Mirco is not going to pay for populated playfields

#4039 4 months ago
Quoted from Ven:

People need to stop buying NIB machines.

That will not resolve the issues, if anything make them worse. Would push used prices up too and back to not enough machines to go round to meet demand.

What would you propose to fill the hole in the market?

#4040 4 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Totally agree although once they accept the play field and start adding components they probably own it.

That shouldn't matter. These playfields are manufactured with the intensions of fastening things to the playfield. If by doing so it causes some manufacturers defect to surface then it should still be replaced. Whether it was damaged out of the crate or damaged by means of working within the intended measures of which the playfield was built for.

#4041 4 months ago
Quoted from pinballaddicted:

That will not resolve the issues, if anything make them worse. Would push used prices up too and back to not enough machines to go round to meet demand.
What would you propose to fill the hole in the market?

The only answer is for these companies to up their quality on these games and to stand behind their products or they aren't going to be around long term. I definitely do not want to see them fail but if they are going to screw their customers I really shouldn’t care if they do either.

#4042 4 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Totally agree although once they accept the play field and start adding components they probably own it.

Meant to say that too. Have to qc these things before using...

#4043 4 months ago

At the end of the day the distributors should be helping their customers out and they are not! What a lot of people don't seem to realize is the distributors are making over $1000 on most games they sell. People need to stop buying NIB games. Most claimed after the Ghostbusters fiasco they were done with NIB.

#4044 4 months ago
Quoted from DerGoetz:

Point is, you promised me PREFERRED treatment, I now got the same treatment as anyone else.
I have NO use for an unpopulated playfield, I wrote you and Jack that. It's a waste of Jacks money, shipping and my space. All I can do is sell it with the pinball.
I offered that I would be happy with a price break on the coming Guns and Roses that you told me about in January 2019. That is on the other hand correct.
You giving me a small break would not have cost you a dime, you would have sold a pin for Jack, I would have continued to be a customer of both yourself and JJP.
Instead you threw Jack under the bus by promising something he cannot keep. And now start a public shit storm. Be my guest.
And if you, as threatened, want to take legal action against me it will be popcorn time on Pinside.

Lucid post. Just a few comments:

- One thing I've learned over the years is there is no such thing as preferred treatment! I've dealt with 6 distributors over the years and they all seem to be at the mercy of the manufacturer. In a sane world, the distributors would have more clout.
- I totally agree that unpopulated PF's are a really wasteful solution for 99.5% of the population. PF swaps are wildly complicated.
- I like your suggestion of a price break on a future game, but I would be a bit more aggressive. For example, a Stern Premium for the price of a Pro...which at Stern's BOM cost difference is a no-brainer!

In any event, sorry about the grief and hope something good comes of it.

#4045 4 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Lucid post. Just a few comments:
- One thing I've learned over the years is there is no such thing as preferred treatment! I've dealt with 6 distributors over the years and they all seem to be at the mercy of the manufacturer. In a sane world, the distributors would have more clout.
- I totally agree that unpopulated PF's are a really wasteful solution for 99.5% of the population. PF swaps are wildly complicated.
- I like your suggestion of a price break on a future game, but I would be a bit more aggressive. For example, a Stern Premium for the price of a Pro...which at Stern's BOM cost difference is a no-brainer!
In any event, sorry about the grief and hope something good comes of it.

I too liked the idea of asking for a discount on a future game....its a win win for everyone.....the distributor didn't like it at all....shocker he won't get his cut

#4046 4 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

I too liked the idea of asking for a discount on a future game....its a win win for everyone.....the distributor didn't like it at all....shocker he won't get his cut

Eventually, distributors will be a thing of the past. When big bucks are on the line and the manufacturer will not acquiesce, they are rendered useless.

#4047 4 months ago
Quoted from Rager170:

Interesting.. And yes, I would agree with the rephrased question..

My take on dimples and CGC is the current quality of playfield wood is WAY worse for every manufacturer making playfields today, not just CGC, but everyone. It has been said that the quality of the plywood was way better in the 90’s and before, and I believe it. Now I do believe CGC is using the best wood they can find, but my MBrLE looks like its been hit with about a thousand tiny ballpean hammers... I’ve seen quite a few original WMS MB’s around here in the Phoenix area that are still as smooth as the day they came out of the box, minus severe chipping around the scoop. My remake, although no where near as bad as a Stern, had a great looking playfield out of the box, the silk screen process was perfect. If they could have just put it on a nicer piece of wood with a nice old fashoined real high VOC clear coat would have been better. So not as bad as Stern or JJP, but not as good as old WMS/Bally/Midway used to sell. Maybe it will dimple flat over time... right

#4048 4 months ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

Eventually, distributors will be a thing of the past. When big bucks are on the line and the manufacturer will not acquiesce, they are rendered useless.

Honestly I don't know why they don't eliminate them all together

#4050 4 months ago
Quoted from romulusx:

.
Stern has not giving out any populated playfields either and won't

Absolutely not true.

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