And make sure to have it in writing.
After dealing with PinballStar I learned that the hard way.

I agree. I don’t think anyone wants an increased price point.

The only way I could see it working is that the scoring related devices would be a swappable kit that had the ability to be moved from machine to machine.

100% true and you don't see him coming on here defending himself either like he has in other situations. He f*cked you and he knows that he f*cked you looks like to me. He deserved to get his ass drug through the mud.

Billy Mitchell does not play pinball.

We have nothing to worry about.

Maybe PinballStar will take the money out of his own pocket to make it right.

Yeah probably.

It's been a few months without hearing anything, so I reached out to my distributor again to check on the status. I was kind of waiting for Stern to figure out which way was up and my distributor to get through the holidays before I started hounding them again. Hopefully I'll heard some good news soon....

Ya you're wrong - maybe ask before you too make up stories...

Customer asked 'If JJP would take care of me' if there were issues, my reply as always is 'Yes JJP does their best to take care of customer issues' same statement as I always would make to anyone as it is my feeling with any company I represent, especially JJP. That was the end of any discussion prior to sale.

Goetz now months later claims he specifically asked me if they would give him a populated playfield. Totally untrue, period end of story. Funny that this claim of what he asked me months ago NOW only comes to light - it was never mentioned to me when he first reported the issue, never mentioned to Jack on the phone with him when he called him like he did with many customers, never mentioned in his tech support / warranty ticket. Never once, but now only now to stir the pot.

I have zero authority to promise anything to any customer. Many customers will attest that if they ask a specific question out of my hands even if it's for any company to provide a screw or a plastic or something small to them I always will carbon tech support or sometimes with JJP, Jack himself to involve the people who make those decisions in the answer. I will NEVER ever answer a specific question on how something a manufacturer is responsible for will be handled later on - EVER, and I mean if it's a $ 5 part, NEVER. I have zero authority to do so. I will always take the time to email the company and involve the customer so they get the right answer to a specific question. So, Goetz claiming I promised him JJP would provide him a populated playfield is absolute nonsense.

So then unfortunately Goetz had PF issues. JJP decided everyone would get a populated playfield. I was involved in the process to get his warranty / ticket claim submitted. I think I even arranged for Jack to call Geotz personally which he did. Obviously Geotz isn't happy with JJP's response to the PF issues and that is his right. That was months ago. Fast forward to a few weeks ago - I noticed a post from Goetz on Pinside that he hadn't gotten his playfield yet. I wasn't sure myself on the timing of these coming out so I emailed Goetz and said 'I saw your post' and proceeded to say I wanted to get you an answer and I carboned Jack on the email to ensure he didn't get missed, etc... Jack replied they are getting made at this time and that was that. I actually took the initiative to reach out and involve myself in something I wasn't asked to do - why - because I DO care. Then, and only then, did Goetz start with his claim he
asked me for a populated playfield. Jack knows it's bullshit as he gets all the emails from me for years asking questions on the smallest of things I need to answer for a customer...

Funny not one other customer got promised a populated playfield, just him. Funny this claim of his only is now an issue months later and was never mentioned before in numerous communications with many different people - me, tech support, Jack, and even here on Pinside. You'd think maybe if he was promised something so grand he would have said when he submitted his ticket 'Oh by the way I was promised a populated playfield, here's the address to send it to'... Nope nothing, didn't mention it Jack, nor me. My thought is unfortunately he is at this point trying to discredit JJP and bully and strongarm them into giving him what he wants with this tactic. Bottom line if he's going to come here to slander me with a lie, I'm going to unfortunately have to defend myself as that post wondered about. He's mad at the outcome, I get it, many folk are upset with JJP and Stern and I understand it. But the story he's spinning is untrue folks. He's looking to get a rise and stir the pot. There are 100's of customers who know how I carry myself.

This is the first I've heard that a JJP owner has been promised a populated playfield.

Lo and behold... I just found two emails from Goetz to support my side of things...

1. Email after the pooling was noticed where he alludes to 'you said JJP would take care of me' - no specific mention of anything other than that. No mention of a populated PF. You'd think he'd bring that up then huh ? Remember you offered me this or that ? Nothing. Just interested in starting the process of a claim. He actually asks for an unpopulated playfield, then says if after the swap that one is bad, he'll then ask for a populated one. Funny that's not how you're saying it went down now are you ?

2. Most importantly and really eye opening to me :
Another email where he emailed Jack and I with his 'deal' for JJP - Sell him an upcoming game (he assumed it was GNR) - sell him the CE version at the cost of the LE ($ 3,000 discount). He goes on to mention he would 'be quiet', nobody would know, etc... EVEN offered to sign an NDA and nobody 'online' would know other than he got an unpopulated playfield he was happy with..

JJP obviously refused. This guy is a player folks - he's lying to you all to stir the pot to cause shit for JJP - willing to drag people like me into the mud who tried to help him. Tried to strongarm JJP with a veiled threat to get what he wants. And now makes up this 'populated playfield' story to stir the pot to shit on JJP and for some reason throw me into the process. He also tried to screw all the rest of YOU too by working a secret deal for himself that nobody would know about and when that tactic didn't work then he comes here to make lies up.

THIS is what is at play. Dirty pool.

Maybe go read your email of 9/5/19 and 9/9/19 Geotz then maybe you can come back on here and report back.

The moral of the story is don't buy anymore NIB games from JJP until they've proven that they've addressed all their play field issues. All these latest JJP problems have shown is that the manufacturer doesn't stand behind their product because they can't afford to do so. Paying top dollar for a new game and have it fall apart is total BS. Unfortunately the distributor is stuck in the middle and can't really do anything about it. Just be patient and buy a nice used game that u can inspect prior to purchasing.

sounds to me like he's pissed that his new game that he paid top dollar for showed up with all kinds of play field issues, and all he did was try and resolve the issue in a creative way....I'm not blaming you in this mess, but how can u not be disappointed in JJP's response.....its total BS....

I allude that anyone who got a JJP or Stern game with PF issues didn't get what they expected of course... I never said he was wrong to be disappointed, and I tried to help him all the way, even recently going out of my way after seeing a post on Pinside to email him and Jack to see if there was a status we can give him. At that point I effectively re-insterted myself into the situation and for whatever reason THEN the populated playfield story was created. No idea why. I had a good relationship with the guy. Many emails from him attesting how well he was taken care of by me, etc... I can't guess what goes off in someone's mind... I suspect as you do he's mad. I never said he doesn't have that right. BUT he made up a story to strongarm JJP and dragged me into it for absolutely zero reason. I have been constantly attentive, interested, involved, and I cared. Unfortunately distributors do not make warranty decisions. We are all in the same boat - it's a shitty situation for customers, for both JJP and Stern, and for distributors. Coming here with lies to rile people up does not make anything better for anyone - it just makes things worse.

What was Stern's response ? Any different than JJP ? I'm seriously asking - since JJP seems to get the brunt of it here.. I don't know the answer. I do know that Jack personally called everyone, was involved, admitted an issue, is providing a solution they feel helps. I know it's not perfect. I get it and never argued otherwise. My only issue is that this person badmouthing is doing it with ulterior motives many of you would not resort to. Did he ever post his acceptance of the unpopulated PF ? No. Did he ever tell all of you about his offer to JJP to get a $ 3,000 discount, sign an NDA, and lie to Pinside about the outcome so he got what he wanted and you all didn't ? No.

Discussion is good, holding companies accountable is good. Lying and trying to recklessly slander someone while trying to strongarm them secretly is NOT cool. That crosses the line from constructive to destructive. I work hard at this and take care of my customers over and over - and did for him as well - the rest of it is absolute garbage and very disappointing. I don't see anyone else in the same boat doing it in the same manner.

Just a quick question...the playfield issues discussed here (dimpling, pooling, chipping, etc...) have they been limited to just Stern and JJP? Or do the CGC remakes have the same problems?

I'm looking to purchase a new MBr soon, and would like to know if I'm likely to see these problems (I've never bought a NIB machine before).

It is still possible to get a complete playfield swap if the damage is bad enough with Stern. 5 key people at Stern have to okay it, and you may have to wait a few months, but at least it is an option in some cases. Offering a bare playfield that people haven't received in half a year on a premium game from a company that bills themselves as such is more than a bit of a failure, IMO. Clearcoat falling off a month or two old game is not a customer problem, it is a JJP problem. The customer shouldn't be made to feel like shit for asking that they get what they paid a premium for in a timely manner.

My MBr has been flawless and set the standard for quality. I have not even had to replace a single rubber part or reinstall a single screw. I cannot say the same about my Stern or JJP. Both have had their share of issues right out of the box. And all of the issues could have been prevented if the quality control at both JJP and Stern was better.

I personally am waiting to see what the next CGC pin is.

Well guess what? YOU need to stop telling customers that JJP will take care of them because that is obviously not true! Dont be giving me sh*t either because all I have to go on is what Goetz said and yes I do realize that there are two sides to every story. I'm still not convinced that Goetz is lying and but I guess we will never know.

What I do know though is YOU are selling a product that the manufacturers will not stand behind. Now that may not be your fault but it does still include you whether you like it or not. If I called and asked YOU "will JJP or Stern stand behind this game if the playfield is bad" are YOU going to tell me yes or will YOU be honest and say no they will not? Maybe I will test you on that one day and see.

The only acceptable solution to someone who gets a bad playfield is to get a populated playfield of good quality in return, I dont care if it takes them ten f*cking times to get it right. JACK calling people personally and offering them a unpopulated playfield for 550 dollars or whatever it was is a complete joke. Then JACK finally offering people a free unpopulated playfield is still a complete joke!

These games cost a shitload of money and it's no fun getting screwed out of 5 or 10 thousand dollars. Ship me a machine on good faith that I will pay you and then I dont and see how you like it JOE. You wanna call me out, i will argue with you all day long buddy.

I would HATE to be a salesman of a product that cost 6 to 12 thousand dollars that i knew wasnt of good quality and that the manufacturers wont stand behind. It must suck to be in that position, how do you feel about that? I would have to find another line of work personally because i couldnt look people in the eye and tell them "Yes you will be taken care of if you have a problem".

At the time when he asked - the situation was that the thought was or it was fact that the posts were sharp and cutting the clear and they were sending out the post kits as a 'fix'. There was no major issues at that time... so yes, my feeling would always be the company will take care of issues that may occur as they all try to. Yes, granted AFTER that the PF issues were then found to be more severe and more widespread and involve multiple companies. At the time there was a kit fix for what was seen as a minor issue with some, not all games... so my answer was legit given the timing / current situation. All these companies want to do the best and yes that's my feeling is that they ultimately do want to take care of the customer in the end as best they can.

You are welcome to come to my office and you can read the emails from Goetz I allude to. It's nothing short of extortion - tells JJP give me what I want I'll stay quiet and I'll sign an NDA - does that sound like it's cool to you ? Has any one else in this thread done that ? He didn't get what he wanted so he upped the ante and somehow brought me into it and tried to get JJP to give him something he wanted. Say all you want about the PF issues, and I won't disagree with much there - it's a bad situation for everyone. There is no 2 sides to this story, I the conversation as he stated never happened, the emails prove it. It was made up to put pressure on JJP, involve me, and also pull the wool over every single one of you. You all should be pissed off because if you think this behavior helps the situation for everyone one bit, you're wrong.

I understand you are mad I've never discounted that in any capacity... The whole point of my posts had to do with the lies stated about me after my hand was forced. I don't disagree with the PF situation one bit - I'm not defending or calling anyone wrong on that. But the manner in which this one person tried to extort the company, lie about me, and used Pinside and all of you for his benefit, is wrong. Period.

When it comes to dimpling I have seen plenty on the CGC remakes.

The bottom line on all of this is Goetz got f*cked. Forget about any lies or him trying to strong arm JJP because none of that matters at all. What matters is he paid BIG MONEY and recieved a defective product so instead of throwing him under the bus you should be on the phone with JACK screaming at him in Goetz defense.

And while I'm at it I would like to hear you tell me and everyone on this forum that JJP did Goetz wrong. Could you please do that for me Joe since your such a honest and stand up guy?

From what it sounds like, the guy Goetz was doing anything he could to make his situation better for himself. I would have done the same.

Paying big money for NIB games with quality issues is a big deal.

The only acceptable solution would be to send a Populated Playfield to him and have him return the current one with issues. Not everyone has the skills and time to repopulate a playfield.

I am in the market for a new JJP and after hearing all this and seeing how JJP has handled it, I am now waiting for the right time to buy or right build date... I will not be suckered into all this stuff when spending that kind of money on a game..

Exactly! If you are rich it's not a big deal to eat 5 or 10 grand but to some people like myself, that is a shitload of money that I personally cannot afford to lose. It takes me a hell of a long time and a lot of hard work to buy one of these games and I want it to be great quality. That shouldn't be too much to ask for from a 6-12K product.

When JJP had issues with the first run of Wonka’s that shut down production!They fixed the issues and restarted production and me and as far as I know other owners have been very pleased with the latest run.No pooling no chipping no ghosting Problem solved

When you say "latest run", what time period are you referring to? This is the game im waiting on...

This is a tough one...I don't really blame Goetz for trying to get a suitable remedy for being sold very expensive lemon. But I also respect Joe for coming on here and addressing the facts he has on his side and staying professional about it. Not many distributors out there will even answer the phone (per se) after the sale. At the end of the day, I think both parties want the same thing...and Jack is screwing his distributor AND his end customer.

Agreed! And personally, I dont care how much money you have, when you pay for something for thousands of dollars new, it should be in perfect condition. I dont know one rich person who would shrug that off as a non issue..

I respect that your in a difficult position as selling games is your livelihood, and I'm sure you provide support to the best of your ability. I commend the guy for being creative in resolving the situation. I'm sure if you paid $9K+ for a new game and it was crap you would be pissed to. Its a fine line being a distributor as u need to take care of your customer without pissing off JJP, and potentially losing the ability to sell their games. I stand by my initial comments (which doesn't help U) in that people should stop buying NIB games until they either fix the problem or guarantee the customer that they'll stand behind their product. The later will never happen unless sales plummet to the point they have no choice....in my mind what we've learned from both JJP and Stern is that they make great games, but they don't stand behind their product.....as a consumer its far too risky for such an expensive product.

Unfortunately, in today's world, the "NDA solution" is often promoted by manufacturers of high value products (such as new homes, which I've dealt with it). The system rewards the most savvy/vocal critics and ignores everyone else. Happens all the time, and is often pushed by manufacturers, NOT clients. That said, I'm not surprised some customers mention this when trying to resolve an issue with a high-value product (where the manufacturer doesn't want to claim responsibility for all defective units). Obviously, the customer would like to see the manufacturer fix everyone's issue, however this isn't financially desirable to the manufacturer (obviously).

Joe, all I can say is you "took care of me" (big time) on a defective game built by CGC. You were honest and upfront and even though we've only worked together on the flawed game, I would have no problem doing business with you in the future. Your "defense" here is also admirable. From my perspective, you are one of the "good guys". Period.

I think the distributor should be just as mad at JJP. JJP is making them look bad to the distributor's customer.

Who wants to be selling machines that have issues, and then in turn not have it handled appropriately? I wouldnt want to supply those machines if all I am getting is customer complaints..

I love their games, and have owned all except Wonka. The only one I have left is my POTC LE....I see zero reason to ever buy another NIB game from JJP or Stern...in my market nice used ones come up for sale all the time.

I give up...

I remind you I only got involved in this because I saw Goetz post that he didn't get his playfield yet. He didn't ask me about it, nothing - I saw the post and I emailed him and Jack to get a status update. From there the lies about the populated playfield started, months after everything started with his claim. I did above and beyond - I inserted myself into the situation to try to HELP him.

To say that he is not wrong to lie here to everyone to extort the company with the deal of give me a $ 3,000 discount on the next game (where was his outrage then - he still wanted another JJP game ? ) with the promise of I'll stay quiet, I'll tell everyone I got an unpopulated playfield and I'm happy with it, etc... Its WRONG. Period. It's wrong to each and every one of you who are looking for adequate solutions. Would you be so kindly about him if you found out today that he got a $ 3,000 discount and you didn't or would you be roasting him ? Please... JJP did the right thing to rebuff him even though it would have been easier to pay him off and shut him up.

This guy is a player and I proved it - he tried playing JJP, he tried playing me, and he tried playing every single one of you ! I did what is in my control as a distributor I put the customer on the path of resolution and I checked later to see if I could do more for him on my own.

Being upset with the PF situation and how he went about it are two separate things..

I can understand your upset if someone bends the truth. What I'm curious about is what you think JJP should have done? replace the game? new populated play field? or just get a new play field?

Okay, but then comes the inevitable question..."How has CGC handled dimpled playfield issues? Better or worse than JJP and/or Stern?"

Has JJP offered a full refund if you return the complete, defective machine? That seems like another solution.

Dimples are not defects or problems... To think a wooden playfield with heavy metal balls bouncing around wont dent is just silly..

Honestly, I find it hard to believe that JJP didnt know that these issues were happening. I would assume that JJP is populating the playfields in house. How hard is it to notice pooling of clear coat when populating?

If he got a 3k discount, the manufacturer would be the one to be angry at, NOT the customer. As I said in an earlier post, manufacturers push NDA's when they "take care of someone"...NOT the customer. Sure, a customer might mention it as a solution, but the manufacturers in many industries have set the tone that they will take care of the most vocal/savvy folks. It's survival of the fittest. I'm not saying it's right, but it's reality folks.

FWIW, I hope pinball manufacturers resist cutting NDA's. Like it or not, the Internet and social media effect how manufacturers deal with customers (and NDA's are a part of it to limit exposure). If pinball machines were as expensive as homes, I have no doubt JJP/Stern would be cutting NDA's (to limit legal exposure and financial liability).

Wow! Could you imagine if that was OJ's legal team's approach to the defense. "Forget about him murdering his ex-wife, as well as lying to authorities, because none of that matters at all. What matters is he paid BIG MONEY for his Ferrari, and her lover was driving around town in it. So instead of charging him with Double-Homicide, you should be on the phone with MARCIA CLARK screaming at her in Simpson's defense.

I have a strong feeling the verdict would have been drastically different.

Well, my WhiteWater has over 25 years of play on it now, and has nothing like the dimpling that I have seen some pictures of here. I guess my question should have been phrased as "Is the CGC playfield quality similar to the original B/W quality, or is it more like the current JJP/Stern quality?"

Interesting.. And yes, I would agree with the rephrased question..

Lol. Thats far from apples to apples...

definitely. i went with the extreme example to make the point. which, still applies.

Joe just proved to this community that this dude lied to everyone, from his distributor, to the manufacturer, to everyone on Pinside. Not to mention tried to work backroom shady deals to benefit himself, and screw the rest of the buyers. It's mind-blowing to me that anyone cold overlook that, or still continue to point any fingers at Joe or Jack. As far as I'm concerned, he has shown that he's an untrustworthy selfish snake, who deserves nothing. I don't care what version of what game you bought, You play by the same rules as the rest of us.

I bought my first game with Joe late last year. a MBR Standard Edition, or whatever they call the lowest model. Joe had no reason to do me any favors or trust me more than anyone else. When I told him I needed a week or two to move around some money and pay in full, he just sent me the game and told me to start operating it, so i can start getting some income from it. He had no reason to do that, other than to be helpful and make an impression. And he took a risk that I may keep the game and never pay him. Needless to say I made it a point to get him paid immediately following.. Integrity, Honor, and Trustworthiness are all that matters in business. Him and I showed each other that we possess these characteristics. I can say confidently that this Goetz character does not. Period.

My Wonka was second run production date 10-30-2019

Rich or poor I think it's a big deal...We're all throwing down hard earned money for a supposedly premium product.....If my POTC playfield was bad I guarantee i wouldn't take the unpopulated playfield....I would throw it in my truck, drive to factory and have them install it...period!

Same for Stern,I think JJP responded quicker because Stern was still churning out machines after problem was noted.

I once thought it would be fun to be a pinball distro........
It may actually make insurance look like fun.

Yea maybe...I learned a long time ago that there are 3 sides to every story. I'd like to hear from the distributor on what he thinks is a realistic resolution.

Has Stern?

I hope you have paid Joe's kindness forward to others. Unfortunately, you were a jackass to me on Facebook when I offered help in a thread you posted in one of the groups. We don't need that crap in this hobby.