(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

63 days ago



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#351 57 days ago

edit: nevermind

11
#352 57 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

"Hey your playfield is chipping to pieces and looks like phuking shit dude". "Yeah i know, not a big deal, its just a minor blemish on a 10K game.......doesnt bother me at all".
Dude are you f*cking serious? You are either rich beyond belief or really really dumb!

Neither is the case. Life is short, I choose not to let this issue ruin my fun.

#353 57 days ago
Quoted from HookedonPinonics:

To me the playfield issues are only flaws if you focus on it. Believe me. It can make you miserable. I choose to not be miserable about it and play and enjoy my games. I bought these to enjoy myself. Not to show off or to sit there looking pristine. Shit happens. Its how we deal with it. I hope everyone finds a solution to this and works together. Wishing financial ruin to the manufactures does nothing.

Exactly how I feel. Well stated.

#354 57 days ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Neither is the case. Life is short, I choose not to let this issue ruin my fun.

If your table was chipped to the point that it had large uneven areas that affected gameplay, would you change your mind?

I get what you are saying and clearly there are degrees to things, but we don't know what these playfields will look like a year from now. I can't just ignore this out of hand until there is some kind of statement.

The idea that there are no widespread problems is clearly bullshit from Stern... they know a ton of JP2s were affected and have started installing washers.

#355 57 days ago
Quoted from tpir:

If your table was chipped to the point that it had large uneven areas that affected gameplay, would you change your mind?

Absolutely I would. So far the issues I've had are small ones I can hide. I did the POTC posts/gummy washers months ago and haven't seen any additional spread since then, thankfully.

I saw a Ghostbusters once that looked like a belt sander was taken to the playfield. If mine was doing that I'd absolutely be on the horn with the distributor about it and I would want some kind of resolution.

Is anyone claiming major peeling yet though? So far all I've seen are small chips around posts.

#356 57 days ago

Just imagine picking up your brand new motorbike, and allready some minor rust on the edge of the fuel filler hole . Or Lets say the edge if your car door. Everyone knows where it will lead to

“Ah dont worry, its only on the edge, nothing to worry about its not like the whole tank is peeling” was said by the sales guys. We we’re like “ what?”

Six months later and over 2500 sold bikes were recalled in for a new tank worldwide . Faulty adhesion led to you guessed it.. big peeling off..I replaced about a 50 with my fellow mechanics at the store

So, If the cat is in the bag, dont act like it isnt because it always comes out .

13
#357 57 days ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Neither is the case. Life is short, I choose not to let this issue ruin my fun.

I never said that i was going to let it ruin my life, that's being a little dramatic don't you think? When i buy a new game though, that is a lot of money to me because im just an average Joe and not rich. I have to work a lot of hours to buy a game and really save hard.

Why do i do it? I do it because i love pinball and all of the lights and sounds etc and one of the things that i love about pinball is the gorgeous colors and artwork. Pinball machines in my eyes are beautiful and when you combine everything that i just said, i want to keep them looking that way.

A playfield with the artwork chipping off is not beautiful at all and heres the thing, it's probably going to keep getting worse. A HUO game should remain super nice even 10-20 years down the road.

#358 57 days ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Absolutely I would. So far the issues I've had are small ones I can hide. I did the POTC posts/gummy washers months ago and haven't seen any additional spread since then, thankfully.
I saw a Ghostbusters once that looked like a belt sander was taken to the playfield. If mine was doing that I'd absolutely be on the horn with the distributor about it and I would want some kind of resolution.
Is anyone claiming major peeling yet though? So far all I've seen are small chips around posts.

Posts 5 degrees slanted carved into the playfield is pretty major man.

#359 57 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Why do i do it? I do it because i love pinball and all of the lights and sounds etc and one of the things that i love about pinball is the gorgeous colors and artwork. Pinball machines in my eyes are beautiful and when you combine everything that i just said, i want to keep them looking that way.

Full agreement, and I work hard to get mine and to keep them nice also.

#360 57 days ago

HEP mentioned that PFs with this issue are likely going to have much bigger problems down the road. Whether it is time or plays we don’t know, but the bubbling/chipping is indicative of a larger problem that affects the entire playfield. There are playfields that had this issue and appear to be deteriorating or having the issue spread rather quickly. Point being, the long term is affected in some way, in varying degrees depending on how bad your specific PF is affected. Covering it up now with a washer is just hiding the problem for now. Eventually, it will get worse.

#361 57 days ago
Quoted from steigerpijp:

Just imagine picking up your brand new motorbike, and allready some minor rust on the edge of the fuel filler hole . Or Lets say the edge if your car door. Everyone knows where it will lead to
“Ah dont worry, its only on the edge, nothing to worry about its not like the whole tank is peeling” was said by the sales guys. We we’re like “ what?”
Six months later and over 2500 sold bikes were recalled in for a new tank worldwide . Faulty adhesion led to you guessed it.. big peeling off..I replaced about a 50 with my fellow mechanics at the store
So, If the cat is in the bag, dont act like it isnt because it always comes out .

You do make a good point. Maybe I am in denial over here because I just want to enjoy my games (as we all do!)

#362 57 days ago

My Munsters LE has the Pox.

#363 57 days ago

Minor rippling is very hard to see.

Dread to think how bad this issue could get if people start looking with torches!

I take it as a given that a huge amount of playfields have minor rippling.

Maybe they will last 20 years like this?

Or rapidly deteriorate in a year or two?

That is the big unknown.

#364 57 days ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Maybe they will last 20 years like this?
Or rapidly deteriorate in a year or two?
That is the big unknown.

And some people thought Spike was designed obsolescence...

I don't attribute anything to malice. But it is funny that a bunch of the Williams guys recognized that clear coating the playfields was bad for Williams bottom line (games last longer, less need to buy new equipment). Maybe all the ex-Williams guys in charge at JJP and Stern see this as mixed blessings

But it's probably something more mundane like a change in the way the art is applied and what chemicals are used for the clear coat.

23
#365 57 days ago

The biggest reason I care about this is if I ever need to sell one of these games down the road, I'm going to get beat up on the price and have a hard time selling it for something that isn't normal and isn't my fault. Now I don't plan to ever sell, but that's always going to be in the back of my head in the event a medical or house emergency comes up.

I know games aren't investments, and I don't buy my keepers as such, but historically most of us haven't lost much money on these things on average and I've gotten pretty used to that. If jjp fixes this tomorrow and doesn't make this right for current owners, my potc is now worth significantly less. Only option at that point is do a full playfield swap.

So that's my take on it. It doesn't affect playability now, but it's not just about playability.

#366 57 days ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

HEP mentioned that PFs with this issue are likely going to have much bigger problems down the road. Whether it is time or plays we don’t know, but the bubbling/chipping is indicative of a larger problem that affects the entire playfield. There are playfields that had this issue and appear to be deteriorating or having the issue spread rather quickly. Point being, the long term is affected in some way, in varying degrees depending on how bad your specific PF is affected. Covering it up now with a washer is just hiding the problem for now. Eventually, it will get worse.

Thankfully there's not been one example though of the issue spreading beyond posts. Even with on location games with thousands of plays the wear isn't going beyond the sling posts. I doubt one day clear will just start chipping randomly in the middle of the playfield. The areas that have chipped are due to the pressure being applied by posts, primarily sling posts, and the slight movement around sling posts caused by the sling solenoid activating. Owners that have covered up the chipping with rubber washers haven't had an issue.

Hell, remember how some very early WOZ's (March - May of 2013) had chipping issues? Part of that was due to no mylar being applied in certain areas but it was also playfield quality related. Wear on those games never spread to the general open playfield. I recall seeing an on location WOZ with the issue, game must have had a crazy high number of plays but the wear didn't spread beyond the reported areas.

#367 57 days ago
Quoted from PinballTilt:

The biggest reason I care about this is if I ever need to sell one of these games down the road,...

The main reason I'm worried is waiting to see if the goddamn PF peels off like my shoulder skin after a long day at the beach.

#368 57 days ago
Quoted from yancy:

[quoted image]

That is awesome!! I was totally being tongue-in-cheek. Emotionally-driven decisions are AWFUL. Need proof? Ask any military member who knows a brand new airman who met a girl at the bar, talked to her for two weeks and decided to get married. Or that poor airman who just graduated BMT and got a 2019 Challenger for a ridiculous low price of $38K with no money down and a 33% APR loan. "He let me drive it right off the lot, man!!"

Quoted from HookedonPinonics:

I guess I'll chime in since everyone is and also since I have lived thru it...

Cropped the book short

Look, that's a good "Don't sweat the small stuff" speech. I'm going to say it straight, and this is NOT a retort to you directly. This is "how it is, and to hell with euphemisms":

This community should not have to deal with this as if it's "par for the course". Absolutely no way in hell that buyers should "accept the flaws" when they did nothing wrong to begin with. All they did was buy the game, set it up, and *POOF!* - clearcoat issues with artwork falling off. That is not a flaw that should have to be accepted. That is sub-manufacturing, and the parties responsible should get ready for the ramifications on this one.

A game made in the 80s, ok, yeah, of course the game is going to beat - it's 31 years old, and there are too many variables there: where did it come from, how long on route, was proper maintenance performed, who played it, how rough were they with the game, were the balls changed out or did they become rolling sandpaper, etc. A game from 1988 and a game that has been out less than a month are to quote Pulp Fiction "...not even the same fucking sport".

These games are chipping and artwork is being lost in a matter of WEEKS vs 31 years. No one should pay $12.5K for a fucking box of lights and be ok with damage occurring through no fault of their own.

Someone's jean rivets rubbing up against a cabinet and scratching the artwork - ok, fine - shit happens. Jurassic Parks being out, what, 3 weeks and damage appearing in sub-1000 plays for normal play? Totally unsat.

If buyers look past this, shit, we might as well start selling whitewood games. Maybe just take out fuses and be accepting when random fires break out. Let's solder wires directly to female IDC pins and save some money on doing away with IDC and molex connectors. Or hey, let's take out the board LEDs and expect buyers to solder them in themselves.

Where does it end? What is "too far" ? If this community looks past playfields with missing artwork, the sky is the limit.

For as much as this industry has kept raising prices at an insane rate and cost-cut their machines into the ground (looking at you, Stern and you JJP taking mechanisms out ...Spooky and CGC, you get a pass for now...don't fuck it up), there has to be a line, and I think the community is starting to laser-engrave that line into the concrete.

#369 57 days ago

chipping/wear in 3 to 5 years is understandable - 3 to days is unacceptable

You'd think that Stern could see the bulging around the posts a few days after assembling at the factory. Affected playfields should never go out the door.

Or do a hardness check on the clear before assembly or something.

#370 57 days ago

I’ve seen so many JP2 pooling pics and know both local ones have it that now I’m wondering if there is any without. Are there confirmed good ones at this point?

#371 57 days ago

Where's #1 JJP fan Dr. Freightener at during all this? Strangely quiet lately...

#372 57 days ago
Quoted from BOBCADE:

I’ve seen so many JP2 pooling pics and know both local ones have it that now I’m wondering if there is any without. Are there confirmed good ones at this point?

I played a good one at someone's home last week. It had the factory installed washers under star posts. I couldn't find any pooling/bunching/blistering there, or around any post. Looked great.

#373 57 days ago

why don’t they do something like this on world poker tour with a wood nut under the sling post to protect playfield as the posts are not even touching the pf

MJR

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#375 57 days ago

Facts dont care about your feelings.
~Ben Shapiro

Seriously, if you (people are over reacting) camp people are content with a defective game then more power to you. Seriously that's OK!

But to sit there.and tell others that actually know the resale value IS going to take a hit to not worry about it .... you're MASSIVELY in the wrong here.

Moral of this story, live and let live and stop telling people how they should feel. You have zero right to do so.

#376 57 days ago
Quoted from MJR8peanut:

why don’t they do something like this on world poker tour with a wood nut under the sling post to protect playfield as the posts are not even touching the pf
MJR[quoted image]

Prolly took them out to save 0.05 cents

#377 57 days ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Maybe I am in denial over here...

I don't think that's ever been in question has it?

-1
#378 57 days ago

Munsters pro with damage

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#379 57 days ago

Can't say for sure about the other issues, but the clear welling up around posts and other fixtures ... that's definitely because it's incredibly soft when they go on the line and things get screwed in.

Not enough curing time between coats, or after the last one.

How do I know it's both? If you were allowing adequate time between, you wouldn't then rush to screw stuff onto it before it had cured sufficiently. That would be idiotic. If you left plenty of time after the last coat before it went on the line, but insufficient time between coats, you'd again be cutting off your nose to spite your face. They're not doing either.

Time is money. Less time is less money.

#380 57 days ago

I just lost a chunk out of Catwoman. Looked around and saw a few other places either missing pieces or were cracked and ready to fall off.

I reached out to my distributor and will wait and see what transpires. I’m not angry or anything. Shit happens...it’s what you do as a company when something does go wrong that makes the difference.

In the mean time, I’ll just keep playing it and enjoying it. Although it does suck buying a $7,600 game only to find chunks falling off the play field.

#381 57 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Thankfully there's not been one example though of the issue spreading beyond posts. Even with on location games with thousands of plays the wear isn't going beyond the sling posts. I doubt one day clear will just start chipping randomly in the middle of the playfield. The areas that have chipped are due to the pressure being applied by posts, primarily sling posts, and the slight movement around sling posts caused by the sling solenoid activating. Owners that have covered up the chipping with rubber washers haven't had an issue.
Hell, remember how some very early WOZ's (March - May of 2013) had chipping issues? Part of that was due to no mylar being applied in certain areas but it was also playfield quality related. Wear on those games never spread to the general open playfield. I recall seeing an on location WOZ with the issue, game must have had a crazy high number of plays but the wear didn't spread beyond the reported areas.

You haven’t seen the HUO Iron Maiden example yet then someone posted. It’s pretty bad.

#382 57 days ago

Just looked my BKSoR over and zero issues. Which is odd and probably furthers the evidence that Stern uses multiple Playfield vendors.....

#383 57 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Thankfully there's not been one example though of the issue spreading beyond posts.

People have posted examples of chipping and peeling at scoops/rails/guides. Some other horror shows as well.

Quoted from PanzerFreak:

I doubt one day clear will just start chipping randomly in the middle of the playfield.

"Ok." You are still in apologist mode even though we have overwhelming visual evidence. Cool.

#384 57 days ago

If we dont hear something by the time prems start rolling, I'll probably cancel mine.

It's getting to be rare to see a table that hits the bare minimum of qc. That's ridiculous.

I'm so lucky my jjpotc doesnt have it....yet.

#385 57 days ago
Quoted from Outlanes:

If we dont hear something by the time prems start rolling, I'll probably cancel mine.
It's getting to be rare to see a table that hits the bare minimum of qc. That's ridiculous.
I'm so lucky my jjpotc doesnt have it....yet.

Honestly, all their games are presold to distros. They don’t keep any on hand or so I’m told. As this is a thing why can’t the line assign and delay a number of games until they get it right?

#386 57 days ago

What a shit show. Is Churchhill cabinets and Chicago Gaming the only company that knows how to make a good playfield?

#387 57 days ago
Quoted from Utesichiban:

What a shit show. Is Churchhill cabinets and Chicago Gaming the only company that knows how to make a good playfield?

No American and Spooky make a good one too. Spooky are building some nice ass cabs and playfields...too bad Scott game 2 isnt done and announced or they would clean up with these checks floating around if the gameplay is special.

#388 57 days ago

Would really like to know how this will be dealt with.

Will there be a time limit to make a claim? There is no specific Stern playfield warranty?

And like GB - how much pooling/rippling do you have to have to be offered a new playfield?

From anecdotal evidence Stern playfields from early 2018 have this issue. Will they be covered? Thinking not.

#389 57 days ago
Quoted from tbutler6:

No American and Spooky make a good one too. Spooky are building some nice ass cabs and playfields...too bad Scott game 2 isnt done and announced or they would clean up with these checks floating around if the gameplay is special.

You seem to be forgetting all the chipping on TNA.

#390 57 days ago

True, but at least they acknowledged the problem and seem to have fixed it.

#391 57 days ago
Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

I just lost a chunk out of Catwoman. Looked around and saw a few other places either missing pieces or were cracked and ready to fall off.
I reached out to my distributor and will wait and see what transpires. I’m not angry or anything. Shit happens...it’s what you do as a company when something does go wrong that makes the difference.
In the mean time, I’ll just keep playing it and enjoying it. Although it does suck buying a $7,600 game only to find chunks falling off the play field.

Any pics?

#393 57 days ago

I do think they should consider slowing the lines down until the issue is resolved, the next manufacturer to ship out diseased playfields will be doing some serious brand damage with us pinheads.

Stern/JJP are making some amazing games right now, we want to support you but #FIXTHECLEAR!

#394 57 days ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Would really like to know how this will be dealt with.
Will there be a time limit to make a claim? ....

Exactly. Would I be better off to play the hell out of my game so it chips early and is covered...or hold off on playing hoping clear may cure and then only to have it chip down the road and they say...tough shit...?

They (Stern&JJP) need to publicly address this asap.

#395 57 days ago
Quoted from Utesichiban:

What a shit show. Is Churchhill cabinets and Chicago Gaming the only company that knows how to make a good playfield?

buthamburg does a really nice job but on a much smaller scale of course.

#396 57 days ago
Quoted from bobukcat:

buthamburg does a really nice job but on a much smaller scale of course.

He let's them dry for months

#397 57 days ago

I think the problem here isn't cure time...its probably an issue with humidity or improper mixing of the two parts of the clear coat before application. If the mix is off, the clear will never cure.

#398 57 days ago
Quoted from JodyG:

I think the problem here isn't cure time...its probably an issue with humidity or improper mixing of the two parts of the clear coat before application. If the mix is off, the clear will never cure.

HEP said something that made a lot of sense. He indicated that the fact that the playfield ink comes up with the clear almost makes it seem like possibly a playfield screen/printing/ink issue. He said something along the lines of if it is a adhesion issue it needs to be fixed immediately moving forward by adding some type of adhesion promoter to the ground floor of the playfields or finding a product that bites in better.

#399 57 days ago
Quoted from bobukcat:

buthamburg does a really nice job but on a much smaller scale of course.

He has also had to send out replacement playfields due to ghosting inserts, just ask soulrider911.
Making playfields is hard...

#400 57 days ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

HEP said something that made a lot of sense. He indicated that the fact that the playfield ink comes up with the clear almost makes it seem like possibly a playfield screen/printing/ink issue. He said something along the lines of if it is a adhesion issue it needs to be fixed immediately moving forward by adding some type of adhesion promoter to the ground floor of the playfields or finding a product that bites in better.

I don't totally buy this...the clear is not hard enough, and the ink adhesion does not have any effect on that. When your fingernail can still mark the playfield after 6 months, you have a problem in the clear itself.

The clear may be bonding to the printed artwork better than the wood- think of it as a tug of war. Something has to break loose. The ink layers themselves, the printed ink to wood bond, or the ink to clear coat bond. The weakest connection will be the first point of failure. We also may be seeing more than one problem at work here. It could be plausible that the water based clear causing the ink to lift easier on top of also being a bad application of the clear product. My money is on the notion that the ink adhesion is fine, the clear is not hard and the movement of the clear is causing the ink to sheer off its bond with the wood. Correct the clearcoat issue, and the ink delamination issue isn't actually an issue.

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