(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

11 months ago



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There are 6124 posts in this topic. You are on page 73 of 123.
#3601 7 months ago
Quoted from Happy81724:

Crazy, did you submit a claim?

Yes, supposedly there is an unpopulated playfield in my future. Still waiting.

#3602 7 months ago
Quoted from 85vett:

You lost me at Motor Trend. You know that's an advertised paid company right? That is why they are so biased...
I used a simple analogy. Sorry you didnylt like the brands chosen but that was never the point. I compared the lower end mass producer with a higher end lower production company. Kind of like Stern (Chevy) and JJP (Cadillac). Have you ever owned a Cadillac or just read what paid writers tell you? There service is where that extra money comes from. Still issues with the vehicles but getting them taken care of is simple because of there service standards, kind of like JJP.
On a side note, If I want an under powered or crap on mpg SUV/Truck I'll go Toyata again. Those were the worst I've owned and outside of my Dodges were in the shop almost as much as they were driven. My experience is with multiple 4 runners....

Yes, I shouldn't have been baited by analogies, because they aren't really applicable here. I don't read Motor Trend and just pulled that off of an internet search along with 4 other articles said the same thing. My grandmother owns a Cadillac. The service is good but costly. And it's in the shop a lot. My Dodge truck is built like a tank but has all sorts of problems. My Ford is not built as well and has even more problems. Best truck I owned was my Ranger before production was moved to Mexico (talk about cost cutting moves).

I'd rather the focus be on the first part of my post, let's leave the analogies behind.

#3603 7 months ago
Quoted from Izzy24:

Yes, supposedly there is an unpopulated playfield in my future. Still waiting.

Ok, what about any clear or anything to apply to the spot? Did they do anything with that? I’d like to apply something to my old one if they just send an unpopulated one

#3604 7 months ago

Can somebody please tell me how to FIX THE CHIP?

#3605 7 months ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Can somebody please tell me how to FIX THE CHIP?

I got some auto paint that kind of matches and I got some touch up toyota clearcoat also. That's how I'm gonna try and fix mine. I think I will put a piece of removable mylar over it also for added protection.

#3606 7 months ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Can somebody please tell me how to FIX THE CHIP?

I like mine with Dip.

#3607 7 months ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

Nobody is getting perfect playfields from Stern. I don’t believe it for a second. Some might have their issues delayed a bit but I don’t believe they got a good playfield while others got a crap one. The materials and process are flawed so all playfields will have issues at some point. All Stern did was start with thin defective clear which led to ridiculous dimpling. Then they went to a thicker defective clear which led to pooling and chipping. So they say to themselves well we got away with the obscene dimpling before so let’s just go back to that. Steve Richie told everyone dimpling was normal and they actually bought it so we go back to where we were before the thick clear. Nothing has been fixed.....

This isn't entirely true. I’d suggest attending a show and having a conversation with stern staff. I did. They won’t tell you specifics because they are trade secrets, but they did more than just thin the clear. I want to see issues with playfields that were produced post September. So far, none have been shown. If there is evidence of chipping/pooling/excessive dimpling in these newer playfields, we should continue to be vocal. No doubt that playfields in 2019 and prior had issues, but it seems both jjp and stern may have now addressed these issues.

#3608 7 months ago
Quoted from Lermods:

This isn't entirely true. I’d suggest attending a show and having a conversation with stern staff. I did. They won’t tell you specifics because they are trade secrets, but they did more than just thin the clear. I want to see issues with playfields that were produced post September. So far, none have been shown. If there is evidence of chipping/pooling/excessive dimpling in these newer playfields, we should continue to be vocal. No doubt that playfields in 2019 and prior had issues, but it seems both jjp and stern may have now addressed these issues.

What more did they do than thin the coat.
Please explain your evidence sir as you have asked others. If it is hearsay than it is no better than others.

#3609 7 months ago
Quoted from Lermods:

it seems both jjp and stern may have now addressed these issues.

This entire Thread exists because they didn't address the issues.

They may have found a way to keep the issues from reoccuring...but they have in NO way Addressed the issue(s).

#3610 7 months ago
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:

Remember this 5 years ago? Sterns new playfields out in the real world. Lest we forget ,
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Haha that ST looks like it has a disease.

#3611 7 months ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

What more did they do than thin the coat.
Please explain your evidence sir as you have asked others. If it is hearsay than it is no better than others.

They won’t reveal what they did or how they analyzed the problems as that info would benefit their competitors, and I respect that. I was told the problems were identified and fixed and that my Elvira would not have any issues. So far, that has been true. I can only speak from my experience, whether people to choose to believe me is up to them. I understand and appreciate the skepticism.

Quoted from guitarded:

This entire Thread exists because they didn't address the issues.
They may have found a way to keep the issues from reoccuring...but they have in NO way Addressed the issue(s).

This thread exists because there have been significant issues with chipping and pooling at both jjp and stern. People are reporting no issues with newer wonkas and I’m not sure there is evidence newer production stern games have issues. I don’t think anyone in the Elvira thread has reported any issues and most seem happy with their playfields.

#3612 7 months ago
Quoted from Lermods:

This thread exists because there have been significant issues with chipping and pooling at both jjp and stern.

Which neither company have admitted to having or identified the cause of or duration of.

IF they had, there would be no need for this Thread at all.

A simple : 'We Fucked Up' to start with.

Followed by a : "We've identified the issue and the runs of machines affected and we will provide 100% of the support necessary to resolve any and all issues resulting to our aforementioned fuckup. Thanks for your support."

Conversely, you can take the AUDI approach.

#3613 7 months ago
Quoted from Lermods:

They won’t reveal what they did or how they analyzed the problems as that info would benefit their competitors, and I respect that. I was told the problems were identified and fixed and that my Elvira would not have any issues. So far, that has been true. I can only speak from my experience, whether people to choose to believe me is up to them. I understand and appreciate the skepticism.

This thread exists because there have been significant issues with chipping and pooling at both jjp and stern. People are reporting no issues with newer wonkas and I’m not sure there is evidence newer production stern games have issues. I don’t think anyone in the Elvira thread has reported any issues and most seem happy with their playfields.

I don’t take Sterns word so far on playfields. Stern added something “special” to the thin coat to make it better or they did something to the wood to cause less dimples is cheap talk.

To me let’s see how the data (Elvira and next machine) hold up over the next 6-24 months. Being in the hobby for a few years we all know a run or two means nothing. Let’s see over time.

I hope they did find the “fixes” as we need to get past this issue.

#3614 7 months ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

I don’t take Sterns word so far on playfields. Stern added something “special” to the thin coat to make it better or they did something to the wood to cause less dimples is cheap talk.
To me let’s see how the data (Elvira and next machine) hold up over the next 6-24 months. Being in the hobby for a few years we all know a run or two means nothing. Let’s see over time.
I hope they did find the “fixes” as we need to get past this issue.

That seems reasonable to me.

#3615 7 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

There have been people with problems since they started putting on the thinner clearcoat.....far less issues but there are still issues. I have a friend that has a JP2 with a bunch of fish eyes in the clearcoat and ive seen guys playfields with the artwork peeling up off the playfield. The problem i have with it is it just doesnt look as good without the thicker clearcoat and it can be done because other companies are still using thick clearcoat. This problem has not been remedied, only band aided

Yeah and even with the thin CC people are finding their ball guides and other metal pieces sinking into the CC and causing bubbling and cracks. So Stern is not in the clear yet.

See what I did there . I know...

-

#3616 7 months ago
Quoted from guitarded:

Which neither company have admitted to having or identified the cause of or duration of.
IF they had, there would be no need for this Thread at all.
A simple : 'We Fucked Up' to start with.
Followed by a : "We've identified the issue and the runs of machines affected and we will provide 100% of the support necessary to resolve any and all issues resulting to our aforementioned fuckup. Thanks for your support."
Conversely, you can take the AUDI approach.

AUDI is thriving, which would argue against Stern taking your advice.

#3617 7 months ago
Quoted from Lermods:

This isn't entirely true. I’d suggest attending a show and having a conversation with stern staff. I did. They won’t tell you specifics because they are trade secrets, but they did more than just thin the clear. I want to see issues with playfields that were produced post September. So far, none have been shown. If there is evidence of chipping/pooling/excessive dimpling in these newer playfields, we should continue to be vocal. No doubt that playfields in 2019 and prior had issues, but it seems both jjp and stern may have now addressed these issues.

I hope the issue has been solved. My JP2 was built on 11/22 and has 212 plays. PF was flawless upon delivery and still looks great (as far as I can tell). Minor dimpling. In general, my JP2 PF is much nicer than my IMDN PF (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/continued-playfield-issues-with-jjp-and-stern/page/24#post-5193747).

#3618 7 months ago
Quoted from manadams:

Haha that ST looks like it has a disease.

That ST I believe was the one on location at Islands of Adventure at Universal Orlando. That pin wasn't a victim of poor QC, it was a victim of being played all day, constantly for years with no one maintaining the machine... that, and probably banged up balls to really take that artwork off.

#3619 7 months ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

To me let’s see how the data (Elvira and next machine) hold up over the next 6-24 months. Being in the hobby for a few years we all know a run or two means nothing. Let’s see over time.
I hope they did find the “fixes” as we need to get past this issue.

Agreed. FWIW, my Elvira was manufactured 11/1/19 and I haven’t seen any issues with the clear. However, I waited about a month to put a playfield protector on it after 17 balls played and don’t have very many games on it yet. I shouldn’t have to put a protector on, but I consider it a necessity to avoid my playfield from becoming cratered.

I’m of the opinion that while the current clear process might be better than what we saw this summer, I’m not convinced it’s good enough yet. Stern needs to go back to using higher quality wood and make sure the clear is what it needs to be.

#3620 7 months ago
Quoted from Hammerhead:

Only one JJP owner? Does that mean JJP has the problem licked?

It seems that way I don’t see any second run Wonka owners complaining like the poor Stern folks are

#3621 7 months ago
Quoted from Lermods:

What was the date of the playfield/game manufacture of the problems you’ve seen? I’m trying to be objective and establish some baseline here. Anyone have a game made (not purchased) since October with playfield issues?
I like the look of the thinner clear.

I’d buy a Jurassic Park premium tomorrow but I am too afraid. That’s why I am thinking cgc, like your AFMr for sale.

#3622 7 months ago
Quoted from DerGoetz:

He called me, POTC Collector Edition owner.
I sure didn't gush and told him my demands, pointing out that installing said replacement playfield will cost upwards of US$1000 as obviously neither him, Joe Newhard nor I have the time do do a swap.
He didn't give a shit, neither did Joe Newhard who went immediately silent in spite of him promising me before the sale (!!!) that I as a CE owner would get special treatment should there ever be such playfield issues. Yes, I brought the issue up before the purchase.
They both decided for me that I am getting an unpopulated playfield and that the joke is on me.
Have yet to even see that playfield.

JJP is seriously screwed up to have one of the owners and face of the company personally promise new play fields to a number of its most important customers and then fail to deliver after many months with no real update or commitment. Combined with the major deterioration in their in-house tech / parts support, they seem to be in serious business trouble or all Jack's proclamations about valuing their customers is BS.

#3623 7 months ago

I think the playfield issue was a bigger set back for JJP then it was for Stern.I think it’s been resolved,but I’m sure it slowed them down big time.You have to fix the water leak on the second floor before you start repairing the damage on the first floor.

#3624 7 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

AUDI is thriving, which would argue against Stern taking your advice.

Ask an adult how the 80s worked out for them.

#3625 7 months ago
Quoted from guitarded:

Ask an adult how the 80s worked out for them.

I loved their first response in 1986: $5000.00 off any new Audi 5000 model with an automatic transmission. Then in '87 it went up to $8,000.00 of ANY new Audi (this was USA only).

If JJP offers $8k off any of their pins, it would save face. No need to adjust for inflation.

12
#3626 7 months ago
Quoted from Lermods:

They won’t reveal what they did or how they analyzed the problems as that info would benefit their competitors, and I respect that. I was told the problems were identified and fixed and that my Elvira would not have any issues. So far, that has been true.

So let me see if I can summarize the conversation you had.

Lermods: There have been a lot of problems with the playfields, have they been fixed?

Stern staff: Umm...yeah! We...uh...found the problems and we...uh...fixed the problems!

Lermods: What was the problem and how did you fix it?

Stern staff: We...uh...can’t tell you cause it’s a secret. But we fixed it whatever it was!

Lermods: Wow, that’s great! I can’t wait to tell everyone that the problems are fixed!

#3627 7 months ago
Quoted from Zablon:

Those 'bad' pics seem...to need context...

Rusty. Balls.

#3628 7 months ago
Quoted from BudManPinFan:

So let me see if I can summarize the conversation you had.
Lermods: There have been a lot of problems with the playfields, have they been fixed?
Stern staff: Umm...yeah! We...uh...found the problems and we...uh...fixed the problems!
Lermods: What was the problem and how did you fix it?
Stern staff: We...uh...can’t tell you cause it’s a secret. But we fixed it whatever it was!
Lermods: Wow, that’s great! I can’t wait to tell everyone that the problems are fixed!

Pretty sure Rob is saying he doesn't have a problem ( in response to a question). He's not saying everyone getting games are fine.

But the fewer new thread members suggests it...would be a good time for stern to make the rest of us whole...

#3629 7 months ago
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:

Remember this 5 years ago? Sterns new playfields out in the real world. Lest we forget ,
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

MET = PF QC issues. Was the first I recall when stern had a wide spread issue. I believe LOTR and IM both had registration issues but not adhering issues.

The other PF's = those are from neglect. The threads where those images came from will show that. There is also an operator documenting their ST with (I think) 30k plays now. PF looks near perfect.

#3630 7 months ago
Quoted from Jackalwere:

Yes, I shouldn't have been baited by analogies, because they aren't really applicable here. I don't read Motor Trend and just pulled that off of an internet search along with 4 other articles said the same thing. My grandmother owns a Cadillac. The service is good but costly. And it's in the shop a lot. My Dodge truck is built like a tank but has all sorts of problems. My Ford is not built as well and has even more problems. Best truck I owned was my Ranger before production was moved to Mexico (talk about cost cutting moves).
I'd rather the focus be on the first part of my post, let's leave the analogies behind.

Damn, I miss the Rangers of the early 90's. Loved that Truck too. We had a step side in red. Looked almost like the baywatch trucks.

#3631 7 months ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

Pretty sure Rob is saying he doesn't have a problem ( in response to a question). He's not saying everyone getting games are fine.
But the fewer new thread members suggests it...would be a good time for stern to make the rest of us whole...

I guess time will tell. But unless they are totally upfront about what the issue was and what they did to resolve it, there are a lot of people here who aren’t going to trust them in the meantime.

#3632 7 months ago
Quoted from Lermods:

I don’t think anyone in the Elvira thread has reported any issues and most seem happy with their playfields.

I'm pretty sure that a friend of mine has trouble with his Elvira playfield. I will ask him.

#3633 7 months ago
Quoted from donkadelic:

No dimpling at all really?
Nice choice in machines btw, def two of Sterns good ones I'd say.
I hate on them deservedly but can't deny titles like Deadpool, GoTG, JP2 and possibly EHH (undecided yet) are great titles. Man do they make a lot of stinkers though.

Yeah, no dimpling...I had an SW Prem that had a lot of dimpling; so use that as frame of reference...Maybe I got lucky; not sure.

Do we know what their profit margin is per pin in each tier? Pro/Prem/LE?

#3634 7 months ago
Quoted from dsmoke1986:

Do we know what their profit margin is per pin in each tier? Pro/Prem/LE?

If this is about profit margins I would rather them just make me a very high quality playfield and just charge me ever how much it cost them extra to make it. Seriously I'll pay the difference to get a good product.

Also when you try to save money you will usually end up spending a dollar to try to save a quarter. All of these complaints have to be very costly for Stern because they have to send people new play fields and they are also losing sales. You also have to pay people to handle the massive amount of complaints. It's not rocket science, just make a quality product and all of this BS gets eliminated.

#3635 7 months ago
Quoted from 85vett:

Damn, I miss the Rangers of the early 90's.

1994stanleycupchamps (resized).jpg
#3636 7 months ago
Quoted from 85vett:

Damn, I miss the Rangers of the early 90's. Loved that Truck too. We had a step side in red. Looked almost like the baywatch trucks.

Me too. My '96 Ranger went 260,000 miles on the original manual clutch before needing to be replaced. And that was the only non-routine maintenance required up to that point. It's a shame they allowed the brand to decline and then die, especially when they were selling over 300,000/yr in the 90s. Curious to see how the new reboot will turn out.

Sorry, back to pinball problems...

#3637 7 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

when you try to save money you will usually end up spending a dollar to try to save a quarter. All of these complaints have to be very costly for Stern because they have to send people new play fields and they are also losing sales. You also have to pay people to handle the massive amount of complaints. It's not rocket science, just make a quality product and all of this BS gets eliminated.

True, except I doubt Stern has hired more employees to deal with the increased number of complaints. But the bean counters have already factored this is and decided that the savings/profit exceeds the additional service costs, probably by a wide margin. They know a good number of people won’t notice or won’t care and only a small subset will press hard enough for significant resolution. They probably will attribute some level of lost sales to each move that reduces build quality but they are insulated from that to some degree because they sell to distributors, not end users, who have to buy/sell a minimum number of units per year to maintain whatever level they are with Stern (more if they want to move up).

The real change is going to have to be driven by the distributors but they don’t seem to have any significant incentive to do so. The playfield quality downturn started a few years ago (4-5?) with the downgrade in wood quality. There didn’t seem to be a big enough outcry (or apparently service cost) to reverse that and people accepted that as the new normal until printing and clear process changes made the playfield issues worse.

I too would rather pay for a higher quality playfield if Stern isn’t going to do the right thing and build that back in to the product. But I’ve only purchased three NIB games since 2013 - STLE, BM66LE, ElviraLE - not enough to move the needle. Stern (and maybe my distributor) isn’t going to care if I ever buy another game. I am reasonably confident my STLE playfield is ok but I constantly worry that I’ll eventually have issues with the other two.

#3638 7 months ago
Quoted from guitarded:

Ask an adult how the 80s worked out for them.

Well, I’m 58...but sure, my Dad (85) actually owned an Audi in the 80’s and was taken care of quite nicely and bought Audi’s over several generations. Did you ever own a defective Audi? Probably not...

Quoted from MrBally:

I loved their first response in 1986: $5000.00 off any new Audi 5000 model with an automatic transmission. Then in '87 it went up to $8,000.00 of ANY new Audi (this was USA only).
If JJP offers $8k off any of their pins, it would save face. No need to adjust for inflation.

#3639 7 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Well, I’m 58...but sure, my Dad (85) actually owned an Audi in the 80’s and was taken care of quite nicely and bought Audi’s over several generations. Did you ever own a defective Audi? Probably not...

I bought an '87 5000CS turbo quattro new with the deal they offered. It was awesome. The car lasted 18 years and had 286,000 miles before I donated it to charity. Owned several Audi's between '83 and this year. They have been great vehicles.

They can go pretty fast too.

365280-i (1) (resized).png
#3640 7 months ago
Quoted from Jackalwere:

Me too. My '96 Ranger went 260,000 miles on the original manual clutch before needing to be replaced. And that was the only non-routine maintenance required up to that point. It's a shame they allowed the brand to decline and then die, especially when they were selling over 300,000/yr in the 90s. Curious to see how the new reboot will turn out.
Sorry, back to pinball problems...

I had a 95 auto for about 5 years. Had it serviced one time at Ford and it swayed off the hoist and crushed the rocker panel. Idiots. Also they "serviced" the front wheel hubs once and ever since I couldn't keep front wheel bearings in it. Should have had it serviced at Mazda I guess.

Funny story, used it for a roadtrip to pickup 4 arcade cabs (towed in a uhaul trailer) and an IJ I got for $1300 back in the day. Sadly, burned up the transmission on a hill and had to call a buddy on a Sunday night to come out with his truck to hook up the trailer, transfer the pin, and deliver to 4 guys houses around the city until about midnight. What a good friend.

Replaced it with a Toyota shortly after getting the transmission fixed and have never looked back.

#3641 7 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Well, I’m 58...but sure, my Dad (85) actually owned an Audi in the 80’s and was taken care of quite nicely and bought Audi’s over several generations. Did you ever own a defective Audi? Probably not..

I owned about 25 Quattros through the years. Used to make good money flipping them back in the 90s. The issue Audi had was loss of market share due to their horrible handling of manufacturing issues. The cars were, for the most part, perfectly safe. It was their reaction to the problem that set them back for over a decade.

#3642 7 months ago
Quoted from guitarded:

I owned about 25 Quattros through the years. Used to make good money flipping them back in the 90s. The issue Audi had was loss of market share due to their horrible handling of manufacturing issues. The cars were, for the most part, perfectly safe. It was their reaction to the problem that set them back for over a decade.

Got it. As an owner, I feel like my dad was taken care of (by Audi). As a result, he stuck with the brand. Since Audi resale took a dive when the media latched onto the issues (which I agree were overblown), I'm not surprised flippers were hurt.

In any event, the original point is Audi weathered the storm and is thriving. Unlike Audi, Stern doesn't get much media attention on quality issues (which removes the "spin" factor from this discussion).

Back to Stern...

If Stern were to handle these issues as well as Audi handled my dad's case, I believe Stern would maintain their loyal followers in this thread.

For folks with arguably messed up PF's, sending them an unpopulated PF isn't a fair resolution (since doing a PF swap isn't practical). If Stern resists sending out populated PF's, why not give customers a screaming deal on their next game? Unpopulated PF's cost about $200...a screaming deal on a new pinball would be a 1-2k reduction say (off MSRP). For example, maybe offer folks a Premium @ the Pro price? Considering Stern margins, they wouldn't be losing money and they maintain good relations with their fan base.

#3643 7 months ago
Quoted from Manic:

Yeah and even with the thin CC people are finding their ball guides and other metal pieces sinking into the CC and causing bubbling and cracks. So Stern is not in the clear yet.
See what I did there . I know...
-

This ^^^^^

Stern are past their cabinet issues but no where near past their playfield issues. If you want to find playfield issues with 3lvira, I would start looking under the Haunted House. Especially near the garage and the ramp diverter. I also know plenty of 3lvira owners have crazed inserts. myself included. It is a real shame as the game rocks.

#3644 7 months ago

Audi’s sucked in the 80s and 90s. I never owned one and neither did anyone I knew. Why? Because we all knew they sucked.

That was their reputation. So whether a few people here loved them and thought they were great is of no concern to the general public, who thought they sucked balls.

#3645 7 months ago

The Elvira near me doesn't have any pooling or chipping but rings can be seen around all the inserts, as if the clear was so thin it never built enough to bridge the teeny tiny gap between the playfield and insert plastic.

#3646 7 months ago

my december build JP premium looks good.
I like the new beefed up cabinets - plywood bottoms & corner brackets

#3647 7 months ago
Quoted from luckymoey:

JJP is seriously screwed up to have one of the owners and face of the company personally promise new play fields to a number of its most important customers and then fail to deliver after many months with no real update or commitment. Combined with the major deterioration in their in-house tech / parts support, they seem to be in serious business trouble or all Jack's proclamations about valuing their customers is BS.

I hope I'm wrong, but I think JJP is running out of gas....my bet is investors have thrown down the gauntlet and said either make money or were gonna sell off your assets...

#3648 7 months ago

Local JP pro here on location appears to have peeling clearcoat in places now. Born in August 2019.

20191231_143146 (resized).jpg20191231_144151 (resized).jpg
#3649 7 months ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Local JP pro here on location appears to have peeling clearcoat in places now. Born in August 2019.[quoted image][quoted image]

Mylar?

#3650 7 months ago

Not unless the whole upper playfield comes from the factory that way.

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