(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern

By f3honda4me

4 years ago


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There are 9,207 posts in this topic. You are on page 72 of 185.
#3551 4 years ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

Stern has the best manufacturing plant in the business by a long shot. Yet they currently make the lowest quality pins in the business. Think about that for a minute. The low quality going out the door isn’t as simple as the QC dept missing things. The cut cost for larger and larger profits is absolutely deliberate. They know exactly what they are doing and don’t seem to care what their customers think. Money is king. Stern just wants it’s customers to think about theme and code. Of course they do. Those two things are subjective and no real answers can be reached. Stern doesn’t want to talk about materials used now compared to the past or number of mechs/features now compared to the past. On those subjects real answers can be reached because it is not subjective.

Spot on....

#3552 4 years ago
Quoted from Zablon:

These days if you want attention, you post on their twitter or instagram, most ignore forums but are real quick to respond to those because way more visible.

Agreed. This should also be taken to Twitter until a real solution is provided.

#3553 4 years ago

So for any of you that bought a more recent game like Jurassic Park or Elviras house of horrors how they looking? Does it look like the issue has been resolved by Stern.

#3554 4 years ago
Quoted from phalcon_2600:

So for any of you that bought a more recent game like Jurassic Park or Elviras house of horrors how they looking? Does it look like the issue has been resolved by Stern.

As someone who has been following this thread for a while, I would have to say the answer is no.

#3555 4 years ago
Quoted from Happy81724:

I joined the club today and I’m not excited
261 plays on my pin and I found this today when putting on my penguin mod! I sent this to my distributor and he said they should send me a populated playfield. I’m not holding my breath but very sad for a couple months old[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Holy crap Batman. That’s shit. I would drive that game to Chicago and film you walking in to discuss it with Gary Stern. Someone should do that.

#3556 4 years ago

I found the chunk that fell off

849A66CF-9B67-446A-B6E9-9828E286E62D (resized).jpeg849A66CF-9B67-446A-B6E9-9828E286E62D (resized).jpeg
19
#3557 4 years ago

Our Distributor in NZ has fixed the Playfield issues...… Raising the price 2K on LE and Premium Sterns..
If you don't sell them you don't have problems..

#3558 4 years ago

Has anyone received an un-populated Playfield for Jurassic Park?

#3559 4 years ago
Quoted from phalcon_2600:

So for any of you that bought a more recent game like Jurassic Park or Elviras house of horrors how they looking? Does it look like the issue has been resolved by Stern.

As I mentioned earlier. I played a new Elvira LE and it is freaking loaded with dimples. Totally covered!

#3560 4 years ago

I am having issues with my Batman 66 Catwoman. I have been in contact with Stern. Hopefully they will do the right thing. Will update once I hear back from them.

#3561 4 years ago
Quoted from Happy81724:

I found the chunk that fell off[quoted image]

You just started the puzzle wizard mode.

#3562 4 years ago
Quoted from T3quila:

You just started the puzzle wizard mode.

Right, very interactive. Can’t wait until more pieces come off and I can glue them back to the playfield

#3563 4 years ago
Quoted from Happy81724:

Right, very interactive. Can’t wait until more pieces come off and I can glue them back to the playfield

It’s part of the fun. So glad not to be in this club. It has to stop.

10
#3564 4 years ago

I traded Deadpool LE for GOTG Pro (plus cash) recently.

My DP had no pooling or chipping. It did have a bunch of dimpling. Sucks because the DP art is AMAZING. Saying it’ll even out is pretty damn optimistic, not just because of the amount of time it’ll take, but dimpling was located only in certain areas.

GOTG had a playfield protector installed by previous own before ball 1. At first I was going to remove it, but after reading thru this thread, hell no.

Game plays very fast with it - like 1st game post-wax - all the time, but I’m getting used to it.

I won’t buy a newer Stern until this playfield crap is fixed.

#3565 4 years ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

Stern has the best manufacturing plant in the business by a long shot. Yet they currently make the lowest quality pins in the business. Think about that for a minute. The low quality going out the door isn’t as simple as the QC dept missing things. The cut cost for larger and larger profits is absolutely deliberate. They know exactly what they are doing and don’t seem to care what their customers think. Money is king. Stern just wants it’s customers to think about theme and code. Of course they do. Those two things are subjective and no real answers can be reached. Stern doesn’t want to talk about materials used now compared to the past or number of mechs/features now compared to the past. On those subjects real answers can be reached because it is not subjective.

I think your going a bit far here now.

What's Sterns P&L for the past 5 years? Are we sure the cost increases are for more profits? Maybe some of it is COGS have increased. Like OPEX from hiring a lot or talented people, mfg cost increasing, wage increases, etc. I'm not saying I know but I doubt you do to either.

Let's not talk coil mechs here being what makes the cost of a game. It's part of it but there are a ton of variables in the mix. Looking at the games I own, the Maiden Prem is pretty dang loaded compared to my other games. More than my Met LE and Tron LE of the Stern "good days".

It's also hard for me to read post about Sterns Quality being the worst but not also saying the produce the least expensive games too. Stern to me is the Ford/Chevy of the industry. Volume with an effort for quality but not 100% focused on it. You want that you have to step up to the Lincoln/Cadillac branding which cost more money.

I'm not saying there aren't QC issues there and I do agree things need to improve and people need to get taken care of but it does feel a bit overbearing with some of the accusation from especially the last couple of pages.

Am I a Stern fan boy? Maybe, I prefer to own them as I like their rules and game play over the other mfgs at the moment but I also love all the other mfgs. The older games just dont have the depth to keep me engaged long term at home thus I play them on location vs buy them.

#3566 4 years ago

Stern really rushed that Stranger Things game release. Hmmmm. Buy buy buy that nib, join the playfield lottery.

#3567 4 years ago
Quoted from Happy81724:

Yep, Obviously it’s not a 100% failure rate as my other 2 NiB purchases were fine. It’s how they handle it that will determine if I continue to buy. If they give me a populated playfield and I pull this one to replace it then we are all good. I will continue to do business knowing they back their products.
Speaking of guardians, here is mine and you can see the art away from the post. I don’t complain about this one because I bought it used with about 1800 plays. it’s not horrible but it’s still an issue as it should be perfect even with that amount of plays.[quoted image]

I think you should put in a claim to Stern. I think that is shit and should not be accepted. 1800 gamrs is not many games at all.

#3568 4 years ago
Quoted from dsmoke1986:

I have bought a JP2 Prem and GOTG Pro both new in box in the last few months.
No playfield issues at all; cabinets are perfect, and both play perfectly; just a heads up to those monitoring this thread for recent feedback.

No dimpling at all really?

Nice choice in machines btw, def two of Sterns good ones I'd say.

I hate on them deservedly but can't deny titles like Deadpool, GoTG, JP2 and possibly EHH (undecided yet) are great titles. Man do they make a lot of stinkers though.

#3569 4 years ago
Quoted from phalcon_2600:

So for any of you that bought a more recent game like Jurassic Park or Elviras house of horrors how they looking? Does it look like the issue has been resolved by Stern.

Most JPs I see still have bubbling/chipping issues, some of them far worse than others but I would say most still do. 80-90% of JP2s I've seen whether first run or recently have dimpling issues as well. Elviras house of horrors honestly I haven't seen any bubbling/chipping issues but the thinner coat (or something) is causing even worse dimpling, like every single time the ball leaves the pf it makes some level of dent. It's crazy.

Random side note...

Was just playing an extremely well trafficd on location Iron Man that definitely hasn't had anything replaced since manufacture. No significant dimpling, no major chipping/pooling, just your usual wear and tear. Funny how that works...

#3570 4 years ago

I reread more of this thread - if I understand this right, this is all due to softer playfield stock?
Tried to fix it with thicker clear -> pooling and chipping
Reduced clear to original thickness -> dimples

Can't they just go back to harder playfields possibly at increased cost?
So what am I missing? If it would be that easy I figure they would have done that already.

#3571 4 years ago
Quoted from T3quila:

I reread more of this thread - if I understand this right, this is all due to softer playfield stock?
Tried to fix it with thicker clear -> pooling and chipping
Reduced clear to original thickness -> dimples
Can't they just go back to harder playfields possibly at increased cost?
So what am I missing? If it would be that easy I figure they would have done that already.

If I had to guess its all 3 things are probably just cheaper/poorer than they used to be. The artwork, the wood & the clearcoat both the quality and the consistency have just gone downhill.

CGC/Spooky & American seem to have figured out a way to fix it. Stern just don't care and are denying it until it goes away, and quite frankly it's working.

#3572 4 years ago

Here is my AC/DC that I owned. Stern really needs to address these issues. More playfield issues. Half my pins have had something. This is luci vault edition

89DC2607-C9AA-4BE9-803F-3F8163A2064E (resized).jpeg89DC2607-C9AA-4BE9-803F-3F8163A2064E (resized).jpeg
#3573 4 years ago
Quoted from T3quila:

I reread more of this thread - if I understand this right, this is all due to softer playfield stock?
Tried to fix it with thicker clear -> pooling and chipping
Reduced clear to original thickness -> dimples
Can't they just go back to harder playfields possibly at increased cost?

It’s not just the softer wood.

Three things have changed in recent years:
- the wood used is softer
- art is sprayed on in layers rather than being screened
- the formula being used to clear (and possibly the process) has changed

Stern could certainly make better playfields but they have obviously determined they don’t need to and/or enough of their customers don’t care.

#3574 4 years ago
Quoted from 85vett:

I think your going a bit far here now.
What's Sterns P&L for the past 5 years? Are we sure the cost increases are for more profits? Maybe some of it is COGS have increased. Like OPEX from hiring a lot or talented people, mfg cost increasing, wage increases, etc. I'm not saying I know but I doubt you do to either.
Let's not talk coil mechs here being what makes the cost of a game. It's part of it but there are a ton of variables in the mix. Looking at the games I own, the Maiden Prem is pretty dang loaded compared to my other games. More than my Met LE and Tron LE of the Stern "good days".
It's also hard for me to read post about Sterns Quality being the worst but not also saying the produce the least expensive games too. Stern to me is the Ford/Chevy of the industry. Volume with an effort for quality but not 100% focused on it. You want that you have to step up to the Lincoln/Cadillac branding which cost more money.
I'm not saying there aren't QC issues there and I do agree things need to improve and people need to get taken care of but it does feel a bit overbearing with some of the accusation from especially the last couple of pages.
Am I a Stern fan boy? Maybe, I prefer to own them as I like their rules and game play over the other mfgs at the moment but I also love all the other mfgs. The older games just dont have the depth to keep me engaged long term at home thus I play them on location vs buy them.

Maybe not *more* profits, but it is important to maintain margins. When costs go up (and that includes hirings and mfg costs), you have to cut something else to maintain the same level of profitability. If you're hiring it's not going to come from labor, and it's not going to come from fixed costs. There's only 2 places it can come from: material costs or production improvements. If quality is not important, both of these factors can impact quality negatively.

And sorry but Lincoln/Cadillac higher costs are due to luxury features, which isn't the same as quality. Even Motor Trends 3 months ago wrote "both are far back in the luxury-car sales race". Toyota is the better comparison...they were the first car company to really emphasize and pioneer quality, which actually led to *lower* costs, and they are no more a luxury brand than Ford or Chevy. Any one who knows quality would point to Toyota long before Lincoln or Cadillac.

#3575 4 years ago

Ultimately it’s really simple.

It’s not beyond the wit of man to produce playfields that don’t chip or pool, or seriously dimple. It was done 30 odd years ago by WMS, it’s still done today by the likes of CGC.

There’s one simple reason why this is happening now: cost. Reduction of BOM has been evident for some time now above the playfield (Munsters topper anyone? Single target bank instead of drops on the same pin, etc) so it’s no great surprise it’s spread to PF quality and QC.

11
#3576 4 years ago
Quoted from Durzel:

Ultimately it’s really simple.
It’s not beyond the wit of man to produce playfields that don’t chip or pool, or seriously dimple. It was done 30 odd years ago by WMS, it’s still done today by the likes of CGC.
There’s one simple reason why this is happening now: cost. Reduction of BOM has been evident for some time now above the playfield (Munsters topper anyone? Single target bank instead of drops on the same pin, etc) so it’s no great surprise it’s spread to PF quality and QC.

Current Sterns with spike boards and crap playfields, reeks of the same use a while and throw away construction attitude, you see in lots of things today, such as washing machines, cars and furniture to name a few.

Price suggest a collector item, but quality suggest a plastic toy.

#3577 4 years ago
Quoted from Durzel:

Ultimately it’s really simple.
It’s not beyond the wit of man to produce playfields that don’t chip or pool, or seriously dimple. It was done 30 odd years ago by WMS, it’s still done today by the likes of CGC.
There’s one simple reason why this is happening now: cost. Reduction of BOM has been evident for some time now above the playfield (Munsters topper anyone? Single target bank instead of drops on the same pin, etc) so it’s no great surprise it’s spread to PF quality and QC.

Reduction of bom

Is BOM common knowledge?
Meaning?

#3578 4 years ago

Bill of materials, or - essentially - the list of stuff inside:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_materials

#3579 4 years ago
Quoted from DerGoetz:

He called me, POTC Collector Edition owner.
I sure didn't gush and told him my demands, pointing out that installing said replacement playfield will cost upwards of US$1000 as obviously neither him, Joe Newhard nor I have the time do do a swap.
He didn't give a shit, neither did Joe Newhard who went immediately silent in spite of him promising me before the sale (!!!) that I as a CE owner would get special treatment should there ever be such playfield issues. Yes, I brought the issue up before the purchase.
They both decided for me that I am getting an unpopulated playfield and that the joke is on me.
Have yet to even see that playfield.

So don't buy from Pinball Star too.

#3580 4 years ago
Quoted from Vinnie:

Yes I found my chips. I actually put them in a little plastic bag.

World's most expensive bag of chips!

#3581 4 years ago
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

Has anyone received an un-populated Playfield for Jurassic Park?

Nope

95B1BF63-CB4E-4AFC-A2B4-D1F903FE98D8 (resized).jpeg95B1BF63-CB4E-4AFC-A2B4-D1F903FE98D8 (resized).jpeg
#3582 4 years ago
Quoted from phalcon_2600:

So for any of you that bought a more recent game like Jurassic Park or Elviras house of horrors how they looking? Does it look like the issue has been resolved by Stern.

Quoted from No_Pickles:

As someone who has been following this thread for a while, I would have to say the answer is no.

I think I’ve posted a few times in this thread, my Elvira premium, which I got about a month ago, has no playfield issues, no pooling or chipping, no artwork up to the posts and thinner clear coat, more like a bw game. I also don’t have any obvious dimpling and have had virtually no mechanical issues (one gargoyle did come off, but was easily put back on). I can’t speak for others, but I’m very happy with the game so far. I’ve been critical of stern in the past and this is my only spike game right now, but I think they got it right on this game.

#3583 4 years ago
Quoted from T3quila:

I reread more of this thread - if I understand this right, this is all due to softer playfield stock?
Tried to fix it with thicker clear -> pooling and chipping
Reduced clear to original thickness -> dimples
Can't they just go back to harder playfields possibly at increased cost?
So what am I missing? If it would be that easy I figure they would have done that already.

Yes, the old B/W wood supplier still exists. Techniply in Oconto Falls, WI. They make the Engineered Birch and Ash 7-Ply Deck boards in Michigan.
https://www.techniply.com/specialty-plywood-1 . This is the same company Williams used, and is who Spooky uses. CGC gets their boards imported from Russia, if I am not mistaken, and am not sure about AP. They may get theirs from Techniply too! Mirco brings the wood from Canada to Europe and has it milled for the 11-Ply boards he uses in his process. The veneer ends up being thinner than the veneer in the 7-Ply boards. I have no idea where Stern gets theirs, but these boards are really not that expensive in the whole scheme of things. Why deviate from the high quality known boards for literally, a few dollars?

#3584 4 years ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

So don't buy from Pinball Star too.

If he made those promises and didn't stand behind them then people need to know about it. I couldnt buy a new game right now without some kind of a guarantee on the playfield.

#3585 4 years ago
Quoted from Lermods:

I think I’ve posted a few times in this thread, my Elvira premium, which I got about a month ago, has no playfield issues, no pooling or chipping, no artwork up to the posts and thinner clear coat, more like a bw game. I also don’t have any obvious dimpling and have had virtually no mechanical issues (one gargoyle did come off, but was easily put back on). I can’t speak for others, but I’m very happy with the game so far. I’ve been critical of stern in the past and this is my only spike game right now, but I think they got it right on this game.

Ditto - on playfield on my Elvira. Looks fine with about 300 plays. No artwork around posts, thinner clear and actually any dimpling is minor.

#3586 4 years ago
Quoted from NoQuarters:

Ditto - on playfield on my Elvira. Looks fine with about 300 plays. No artwork around posts, thinner clear and actually any dimpling is minor.

Im glad that the thinner clear has band aided the problem but unfortunately the playfields dont look as good as they used to and who knows how they will hold up long term?

#3587 4 years ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Im glad that the thinner clear has band aided the problem but unfortunately the playfields dont look as good as they used to and who knows how they will hold up long term?

Which ones? Im really happy with my Elvira pf, looks like an older bw game, which we all seem to like. Stern spent a lot on understanding and fixing the issues and I was told firsthand my Elvira would be good, and it is. I’d like to hear if anyone has a playfield from post-expo (mid-October) that has issues. Please show the date of the game/playfield and the issues. Thought I saw some recent jp games with issues, but not sure I saw the dates of manufacture.

#3588 4 years ago
Quoted from DerGoetz:

... promising me before the sale (!!!) that I as a CE owner would get special treatment should there ever be such playfield issues.....

Oh, he wasn't lying. As a CE owner, you get to pay the highest purchase price to do your own PF swap!

#3589 4 years ago
Quoted from Lermods:

I’d like to hear if anyone has a playfield from post-expo (mid-October) that has issues. Please show the date of the game/playfield and the issues.

There have been people with problems since they started putting on the thinner clearcoat.....far less issues but there are still issues. I have a friend that has a JP2 with a bunch of fish eyes in the clearcoat and ive seen guys playfields with the artwork peeling up off the playfield. The problem i have with it is it just doesnt look as good without the thicker clearcoat and it can be done because other companies are still using thick clearcoat. This problem has not been remedied, only band aided

#3590 4 years ago
Quoted from Dr-pin:

Is BOM common knowledge?

Yes.

#3591 4 years ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

There have been people with problems since they started putting on the thinner clearcoat.....far less issues but there are still issues. I have a friend that has a JP2 with a bunch of fish eyes in the clearcoat and ive seen guys playfields with the artwork peeling up off the playfield. The problem i have with it is it just doesnt look as good without the thicker clearcoat and it can be done because other companies are still using thick clearcoat. This problem has not been remedied, only band aided

What was the date of the playfield/game manufacture of the problems you’ve seen? I’m trying to be objective and establish some baseline here. Anyone have a game made (not purchased) since October with playfield issues?

I like the look of the thinner clear.

#3592 4 years ago
Quoted from DerGoetz:

He called me, POTC Collector Edition owner.
I sure didn't gush and told him my demands, pointing out that installing said replacement playfield will cost upwards of US$1000 as obviously neither him, Joe Newhard nor I have the time do do a swap.
He didn't give a shit, neither did Joe Newhard who went immediately silent in spite of him promising me before the sale (!!!) that I as a CE owner would get special treatment should there ever be such playfield issues. Yes, I brought the issue up before the purchase.
They both decided for me that I am getting an unpopulated playfield and that the joke is on me.
Have yet to even see that playfield.

Wow, I’m surprised Pinball Star would go silent if he had told you that you would be taken care of in the event of a play field problem.

#3593 4 years ago
Quoted from Jackalwere:

Maybe not *more* profits, but it is important to maintain margins. When costs go up (and that includes hirings and mfg costs), you have to cut something else to maintain the same level of profitability. If you're hiring it's not going to come from labor, and it's not going to come from fixed costs. There's only 2 places it can come from: material costs or production improvements. If quality is not important, both of these factors can impact quality negatively.
And sorry but Lincoln/Cadillac higher costs are due to luxury features, which isn't the same as quality. Even Motor Trends 3 months ago wrote "both are far back in the luxury-car sales race". Toyota is the better comparison...they were the first car company to really emphasize and pioneer quality, which actually led to *lower* costs, and they are no more a luxury brand than Ford or Chevy. Any one who knows quality would point to Toyota long before Lincoln or Cadillac.

You lost me at Motor Trend. You know that's an advertised paid company right? That is why they are so biased...

I used a simple analogy. Sorry you didnylt like the brands chosen but that was never the point. I compared the lower end mass producer with a higher end lower production company. Kind of like Stern (Chevy) and JJP (Cadillac). Have you ever owned a Cadillac or just read what paid writers tell you? There service is where that extra money comes from. Still issues with the vehicles but getting them taken care of is simple because of there service standards, kind of like JJP.

On a side note, If I want an under powered or crap on mpg SUV/Truck I'll go Toyata again. Those were the worst I've owned and outside of my Dodges were in the shop almost as much as they were driven. My experience is with multiple 4 runners....

#3594 4 years ago

Remember this 5 years ago? Sterns new playfields out in the real world. Lest we forget ,
017f3ed0b005825fa7b7b01b6942cf7f56368d2c (resized).jpg017f3ed0b005825fa7b7b01b6942cf7f56368d2c (resized).jpg117ddfd97778a821dfc73584367b1e7967519bb1 (resized).jpg117ddfd97778a821dfc73584367b1e7967519bb1 (resized).jpgc896b02dbe279cc448309feaecbeb1e5461fba9d (resized).jpgc896b02dbe279cc448309feaecbeb1e5461fba9d (resized).jpgff0a39052a343bf2991e510a08c56f1bf3cb53ab (resized).jpgff0a39052a343bf2991e510a08c56f1bf3cb53ab (resized).jpg

#3595 4 years ago
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:

Remember this 5 years ago? Sterns new playfields out in the real world. Lest we forget ,
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Wow....that's not good at all there!

#3596 4 years ago
Quoted from Happy81724:

I found the chunk that fell off[quoted image]

Same spot as my Catwoman.

369F1429-67C6-4965-B980-6D90D8E6F2F3 (resized).jpeg369F1429-67C6-4965-B980-6D90D8E6F2F3 (resized).jpeg
#3597 4 years ago
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:

Remember this 5 years ago? Sterns new playfields out in the real world. Lest we forget ,
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Normal wear and tear. Nothing to see here...

#3598 4 years ago

Those 'bad' pics seem...to need context...

#3599 4 years ago
Quoted from Izzy24:

Same spot as my Catwoman.[quoted image]

Crazy, did you submit a claim?

#3600 4 years ago

Nobody is getting perfect playfields from Stern. I don’t believe it for a second. Some might have their issues delayed a bit but I don’t believe they got a good playfield while others got a crap one. The materials and process are flawed so all playfields will have issues at some point. All Stern did was start with thin defective clear which led to ridiculous dimpling. Then they went to a thicker defective clear which led to pooling and chipping. So they say to themselves well we got away with the obscene dimpling before so let’s just go back to that. Steve Richie told everyone dimpling was normal and they actually bought it so we go back to where we were before the thick clear. Nothing has been fixed.....

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9,499
$ 24.00
Lighting - Other
Pin Monk
Other
$ 95.00
Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
Pinball Mod Co.
Sound/Speakers
$ 18.00
Playfield - Other
Pin Monk
Other
$ 120.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Duke Pinball
Decorations
8,500 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Fairfax, VA
$ 115.00
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Super Skill Shot Shop
Shooter rods
$ 124.50
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
The MOD Couple
Toys/Add-ons
$ 14.95
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
ULEKstore
Toys/Add-ons
$ 54.99
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Lighted Pinball Mods
Shooter rods
Hey modders!
Your shop name here
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