Thanks for that, appreciate the honesty.

I decided to stay away from nib. That long ride home today from Xmas I had time to think about it.

What are rocket appliances? Strap a rocket to my pinball machine?

I dont think about much if anything really. It sounded good and I just said it.

Ya, but if you manage to get the 1 in 10 playfields that don't have dimpling or clear coat issues, you get to come on pinside and call everyone else crazy.

they "fixed" it on elvira by making the clearcoat super thin and getting rid of all the artwork under the posts.

in exchange you get a playfield dimpled like the surface of the moon after about 3-4 weeks.

but hey, according to stern it'll "even out" after a while so all should be good now!

I notice the dimples much more with the thicker Stern clear vs the thinner. Either way, dimples happen on every pinball so that doesn't concern me. Artwork chipping away does.

Yep, my JP Pro has thinner clear. Now that I've had it for a month or so there's some pretty obvious dimples and I can see woodgrain texturing when the light hits the playfield right. It's going to take a while for the dimpling to "even out" since it doesn't see a ton of games. At some point I'll end up having to get it sanded and re-cleared professionally.

So Stern started using thicker bad clearcoat to make sure they had as much space as possible between the steel ball and their downgraded soft ass wood playfields? That caused pooling and chipping. So now they go back to a thin layer of bad clearcoat which exposes their cheap soft ass wood PFs with craters. They haven’t fixed anything. Stern makes the lowest quality pins on the market and they are playing all the pinheads like a fiddle. Those buying Sterns are being taken IMO. But hey at least your current FOMO is gone.........until the next sub par release.

God forbid you criticize Stern on here. The defense team will attack soon. I would totally buy a Jurassic Premium, but not with the current quality hell no.

My Elvira premium has been great, not much dimpling and no clear coat issues.

Bring on the defense team. Most of them have trouble being objective because
A. They own a bunch of Sterns and have a lot of money tied up in machines
B. Are operators who rely on Stern for new machines to excite their customers
C. Are tournament players who have pinball as the biggest part of their personality and Stern is top dog sponsoring tournaments. Don’t bite the hand that feeds.

I just judge the current pins against those I played and owned in the 90s. It’s pretty obvious the current Sterns are sub par machines. And who actually cares who the Stern talent is when they have the lowest budget in the business and the designers can’t really do what they want in designing a pin. Stern is mostly hype with very little substance. By hey they make the most machines so they must make the best.........

Don't forget the streamers.

It’s a Ricky’isim

Trailer Park Boys

Either that or I’m so ruined mentally I look for TPB quotes when they aren’t there.

Someone tell me I’m not losing my mind

Two birds stoned, gnomesing?

Definitely a Rickyism.

Once you’re in the park, you’re park for life! But not Stern NIB for life...
0989E575-7F32-4D49-897D-1E3BC8667DB1 (resized).jpeg

Seems like you have it all figured out!

How do you "judge" JP2 against all the games you've owned/played?

From my perspective, gameplay needs to be factored into "quality". A perfectly built game (with no dimples and perfect clear isn't very exciting if the gameplay is BORING. I've owned a HEP CCC and PMD TOTAN and sold them because the gameplay was BORING.

I can't stop playing JP2 and think it's one of the best shooting games of all time. The shots available to the right upper flipper are just awesome.

Since Stern currently produces the most games (by far), it's not surprising they produce some duds. As they know very well, it takes a spectrum of games to satisfy a pretty diverse customer base. Casual players don't like the same games as fanatics that play every day.

“best shooting game of all time”.... I get it is a good game for most.... but heck give it 5 or 10 years before making those comments.

First let me say I appreciate you recognizing I have it all figured out. As for how I feel about your generic dinosaur game. It is a good shooter but has low quality, little to no assets and the art package is sub par. Maybe you don’t understand how many collectors of high priced items operate. The highest of quality is expected.. Cars ,watches, motorcycles or most other mech items. Doesn’t matter. Most serious collectors expect high quality. With Stern you can clearly see where they dropped quality for profit margin. That can be a deal breaker for some who would own something expensive. So no gameplay is not factored into quality. They are completely separate and for some if the high quality is not there they don’t want to own it. Play at a barcade sure.....but not to own.

You misquoted me. I said "one of the best shooting games of all time". I've been playing pinball for 40 years and collecting for 20 years.

One of the more pretentious responses I've ever received on Pinside. So let's see...if you aren't enraged by Stern's various quality issues, you aren't a "serious collector" or have high expectations. Wow. Would love to see your collection! A modern pinball collection without any Stern pinballs isn't a serious collection...that I can safely say. I'm far from a Stern "fan boy", but give the company a little respect! You seem to be full of yourself...that's for certain.

There are seemingly no repercussions is the problem. Those of us who speak up against it are somehow shunned as anti-pinball. And people just keep shelling out 6k+ for an 1800$ pinball machine without batting an eye. If you were Stern or JJP why change? Just send out a 280$ playfield to the few people who complain enough and lie to your customers all along the way.

The dimpling will never even out. The fact that these things are showing major dimpling after a few weeks when Bally Williams games still have very little after 30-40 years is absolutely pathetic. The dimpling is just as bad if not worse than the chipping and pooling if you ask me because it actually alters ball trajectory and effects gameplay.

I don't see myself buying a NIB from Stern or JJP at any point in the coming years. It will take years to undo the bad taste in my mouth even if they fix the problems.

Instead I'll wait 1-2 years and find the rare one used that doesnt have any problems. And then probably only JJP to be honest. At least Jack has acknowledged the problem to customers personally, I'll give him that.

Pretentious sums it up pretty well. Discussions, views, responses and replies boarding on trolling or goading folks is poor form. Detracts from useful or valid points that might be stated. Sometimes I agree with portions of what folks post, but think they are more intent on raising someones dander than adding anything useful or making a point with logic. Being condescending washes out any substance of what you may or may not be trying to impart to the thread.

JP2 is a solid game design-wise however...

Build quality is absolutely dogshit. Granted its not every single machine but at least half I've seen on location (a dozen or so) have major chipping/pooling, insane levels of dimpling, posts removed, washers covering up damage, it's really pathetic. I've seen so many missing posts under the upper right flipper its not even funny. At some point it just does more harm than good to have it there as it's literally ripping apart the playfield.

Not having the moving Dino head on the pro is a joke. The car isn't even a car from the movies and looks like its a 2$ hot wheel. Granted I don't really care about toys in games but when you make them such a big part of the experience cant they cost at least 40-50$ each?

As for gameplay not really the thread for it but JP2 is def overrated imo. It's a great game don't get me wrong but it's like an 8/10. There is one too many shots on the PF the right is way too jammed. Spend half the games just trying to hit amber target or right ramp/orbit. Ruleset is way way too weighted toward Chaos multiball. Theres pretty much no reason to go for anything else. Raptor cage is probably the coolest mech in the game and its largely irrelevant. You get multiball going once in a while just because but largely a useless area. I could go on and on but you get the picture. Again, I'm just pointing out the negatives theres a huge huge list of positives. Overall I'd say IMDN had way better layout and gameplay. Just the theme that sucked.

It's interesting that you/Extraballz have been on Pinside for <1 year and like making broad, dramatic assertions about being "shunned as anti-pinball".

FWIW, I totally respect folks who are enraged by some of the issues (and stand on the sidelines if that's what comforts you). In fact, I've slowed by NIB purchases and try and buy used (a situation that removes some of the NIB "risk"). The world isn't black and white, and it wouldn't hurt to respect folks that arguably have years of combat experience with Stern products!

How long someone has been on pinside (or even playing pinball) has absolutely zero to do with the issue and is nothing more than an Ad Hominem attack.

The points all remain valid and who is saying them has no relevance to this debate/conversation.

Just because you've been collecting games for 20 years doesn't mean cracking playfields and dimpling on a NIB is in any way acceptable.

Well no offense to anyone because you guys are all my friends but I AM a Stern fanboy but I also call it like I see it, and their quality sucks right now and there's no way that I would buy a NIB game at the moment. We will see how they treat me on my current issues also. I also just bought a IMDN topper and i gotta tell ya, that is a 400 dollar freakin joke. Cheap ass plastic topper for 400 dollars and if that isnt already embarrassing enough, the background piece wasn't cut right and and in the top right corner you can see a big gap and the light shines through it and it looks bad.

This clearcoat debacle that's going on right now though is 100 percent stopping me from buying JP2 and Elvira 3 from them. I have two bad playfields right now, I dont need or want anymore.

My build was 11/22, and I believe they must have resolved many of the issues (since mine looks great aesthetically). I had a couple mechanical problems (raptor gate sticking, coil stop causing minor flipper sticking). My IMDN Premium had *many* more issues by comparison...took me 1 month to dial-in.

I totally agree that the issues you've outlined are pathetic. I just don't know how pervasive they are (i.e. what % of games are defective).

You seem to be the only one calling people names. You don’t like what you are hearing and are throwing a fit over it. I am sure plenty of folks here can see that. You don’t like my argument on things how about a logical counter argument. Nope your going to call people pretentious and dramatic. My substance vs your substance. Let’s see if you can actually do that. You are just trying to discredit people because you can’t win the argument. People will see this.

OMG...I didn't say your points have no relevance. You seem to only want to fight...go joust with someone else. I'm done with you.

I can answer your question for you. There are LOTS of games that are defective right now.

I could live without the Dino on the pro. Really, I could.

But that car and the art package just killed it for me.

That Playfield looks like a paper placemat that you'd find on a table at a Pizza Buffet. You know, with a Jelly Jar filled with Crayons next to the Crushed Red Pepper.

Sure, but if you could "wave a wand" and stop all Stern NIB purchases, you'd be hurting the hobby you love (and it's not like there are any other companies to truly fill the void).

I trust you are right, and I just was fortunate to "get a good one". I've gotten bad ones over the past 20 years...trust me. Stern did a populated PF replacement on my AC/DC years ago (when they had the "cloudy insert" problem with the lower PF).

Since Stern sales occur almost exclusively through distributors, it's odd/disturbing that the distributors don't have more impact on Stern. At the end of the day, THEY are the ones that CURRENTLY have more leverage over Stern.

No fit. Name calling is different than characterizing your post (which was wildly pretentious by any metric).

I have been on this forum for less than 1 year but I have been on other Internet forums for over 10 years. I have seen every tactic there is for when someone will try to discredit someone or silence someone because they can’t win the argument. This is what you are attempting in this thread with me right now. I advise you try to win on the merits of the argument instead of trying to win on some sort of half assed technicality like discredit or shame. BTW “ wildly pretentious “? You sure I am the dramatic one?

Merit's of your argument?

Schooling us about what affluent people expect from misc. purchases is arguably/wildly pretentious.

Here is what you said (verbatim): "Maybe you don’t understand how many collectors of high priced items operate. The highest of quality is expected.. Cars ,watches, motorcycles or most other mech items. Doesn’t matter. Most serious collectors expect high quality.").

This has 0 to do with pinball!

Fanboy.....I even bought a Stern hat this summer! Haven’t been wearing it. I hope they take care of you somehow, it would be in there best interest. They probably would still make money on those two premiums you want even if it costs them some resolution for your current issues.

First time I saw it I figured it was trying to look bad on purpose as an "homage" to the data east Jurassic Park. That Nedry art.....yeesh. Also you have a game where dinosaurs are constantly ripping people apart and theres not a spec of blood. Interesting.

I like Stern games a lot but really wish they added more adult modes to their pins. Selective of course, from the menu......
Totally agree with some comments above on JP - Art work, could be better on play-field and cab. Also....... no gore? This could have been added to the adult mode ......
All a bit too family friendly to improve sales.....

I am not affluent nor was I speaking about affluent people. People who buy old muscle cars care about high quality. When things are made with things like metal and wood the quality of those materials matter greatly. Most serious collectors of high dollar mechanical items care about high quality. They should care. Pinball seems to be one of the rare cases of where some or many people are excepting low quality for a high dollar mechanical item. Again throwing in the word affluent to try to make me look like some ultra rich out of touch person. The look guys he is not one of us forum tactic to discredit. How about you try and tell me how Stern’s quality hasn’t actually gone down and here are the facts to prove that. I call it like I see it and I see lower quality and less assets as prices climb.

I agree with you and I am not on a crusade to try and get people to stop buying games and run them out of business by any means. I want the exact opposite of that, I want them to succeed and build great products because they make a product that I want and love.

With that being said though I'm also not going to hide the fact that these playfields are shit right now and my IMDN topper is shit too for 400 dollars. There are just too many things that get by their quality control and I just find it disturbing truthfully. I mean think about this, the first batch of Munsters toppers that shipped were pretty much 100% defective it appears, and then after that many of the 2nd batch weren't working either AFTER they said that they would every single one be bench tested before they shipped. That's just dumb and bad QC and bad management any way you slice it.

I love Stern games but they have got to get a handle on their quality and they have also got to stand behind their product better than they have been recently. I know they have a good track record of doing so but here lately they haven't been and have actually been ignoring customers completely for months and months and I dont like that.

I finally had to call stern after 5 months of being ignored. I'm pretty sure that my distributor is too blame for this though as their communications skills are beyond horrible. It appears as if they never even turned in my two tickets to Stern, I wont be buying from them anymore that's for sure.

I could go on for another hour ranting but I'm not going to, it is what it is. Stern knows that they need to improve I am sure and any distributors that are not taking care of their customers will learn the hard way by losing sales and losing sales in such a small market like pinball is not a good thing. I so want to blast this distributor on here that alot of people thinks is so great but I'm not going to do that just yet. Maybe one day though when I'm in the right mood.

Stern's quality has definitely gone down over the years...no argument whatsoever. I've had hundreds of posts that talk about specific quality issues & solutions. No doubt that some of the issues require a populated PF replacement. It sucks that Stern's decision to pump out these games is worth sacrificing quality (to them, obviously).

If you weren't talking about "affluent people", you could have fooled me. In my mind, affluent people are the folks purchasing the "high priced" items you referenced. If you can't understand this, I don't know what else to say. If you aren't affluent, I also have no idea how you can judge what they think or how they behave. I've known quite a few affluent people and they don't all behave or think the same (as you were portraying).

My original post was simply this...if you like the way a game shoots/plays/etc. (like I do with Keith's PF2 design), it's worth taking the "NIB risk" (if you just can't wait for collectors to start selling them on Pinside). I waited patiently for BM66 and I'm happy I did...I wasn't impatient and the risk was worth the reward. Saved me money and grief (since I was able to see/play it NOB). After playing JP2 at a local arcade, decided it was a game worth purchasing.

I have no ill will toward the fairly small community of JP2 haters...we all focus on different aspects of a game. Different strokes...

I hear you! My Munsters CPU died within the first 2 weeks of ownership (or 30 plays, to be precise). Took Stern one month to get me a new CPU! Immediately after receiving the new CPU, I sold the game at a loss. The game didn't impress me and not being able to enjoy it so soon after taking delivery pissed me off.

The distributors that don't support our purchases need to take more heat...

Are you friends with the Benedicts?

Sounds like two turnips in heat in a Mexicali standoff!

If I could wave a wand it would be to instantly improve their quality, not shut their line down. But if shutting the line down is the only option, you do it. I wouldn't be hurting the hobby I love, Stern would hurting the hobby I love.

I'm a quality supervisor and at my factory I will shut the line down in a heartbeat if there is even a small chance that it will negatively impact the customer. You'd be amazed how quickly and creatively problems can be solved when quality is prioritized over production.

I played an Elvira LE today, and the playfield was dimpled like a golfball. Seriously, it was covered with them. Now I understsnd what the concern is. Truly an outrage!

This is 100% unacceptable for any modern pin, and the only reason this can happen is from cutting corners. Clear coat is not rocket science Stern. I have a marcospecialties playfield for my Funhouse, and is clear is smooth as glass on every square inch of it. Absolutely flawless perfect with none of the weird shit stated in this thread. So it can be done with the right materials and craftsmanship.

Maybe its time for Stern to transition to overlays like what we are seeing from the hartop guys. I would also expect that the manufacturing costs would be less and they could pass a portion of that back to the customer. LOL.

This mediocre quality will continue to hurt the industry if its not fixed. Low qualty parts and craftsman ship can be better dealt with on the other parts in the machine. But not the PF...its the foundation for everything else and when a PF looks bad, everything else looks bad.

Would be interesting to know what specific clear coat they are using. Is it a poly, or something that is catalyzed? Is it cheap chinese shit, or is it DuPont or something else of decent quality? Again this is not rocket science and if i worked for Stern, I would be embarrased at what is going out the door. And sending customers a new pf is NOT a solution given the work required to do a PF swap.

Stern pinball. Fix this NOW!

I have no dimples in playfields I've sprayed with DuPont Chroma.

Good to hear you have the right attitude.

I imagine that (a) you produce products in a competitive industry, and (b) you are supported by upper management. I worked in tech for 25 years and had the same attitude.

Stern recently hired a new Director of QA (https://sternpinball.com/2019/10/10/stern-pinball-enhances-quality-assurance-team/), so let's hope that he is working on the issues that concern us. Would love to know what he is doing to turn things around...changing around a company culture isn't trivial. He will obviously need the support of other Stern executives. I'd also hope he is meeting with major distributors to hear about our quality issues first hand.

That sucks but at least its fixable. A chipping and pooling playfield....not so much.

But has anyone actually received a replacement playfield from JJP? I feel like Jack only acknowledged the issue after it gained traction in pinball news, then he said they (JJP) would work on a case by case basis with anyone who has a defective playfield, then the pinball news stopped talking about it, and then JJP did nothing.