(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

3 months ago



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There are 3238 posts in this topic. You are on page 63 of 65.
#3101 27 days ago
Quoted from adborto:

Automated/Pinballs.com is the best. Mike and Kayla are great people to work with. Always a positive experience.

I would like to hear from some Automated customers that have playfield issues. How are they resolving the issues?

#3102 27 days ago
Quoted from finman2000:

I would like to hear from some Automated customers that have playfield issues. How are they resolving the issues?

They are probably at the mercy of Stern just like the rest of us but I do know people that deal with Automated and I have heard nothing but great things about them.

#3103 27 days ago

Class action...someone find a Jackie Childs.

#3104 27 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

They are probably at the mercy of Stern just like the rest of us but I do know people that deal with Automated and I have heard nothing but great things about them.

For quite some time I have heard nothing but good things about them as well. I just haven't heard how they are handling the playfield issues, which I am curious about. The distro I previously used for all of my purchases has left the business. I am trying to evaluate distros for future purchases. How they handle an issue like this is of particular interest to me.

#3105 27 days ago

I bought my first pin from Mike at automated

They were closing out LotrLEs for $5200!

I needed a pin while I was waiting for Woz

I was a total newbie. It came with a pallet jack hole in the bottom of cab. I accepted delivery because I didn’t think it looked bad and didn’t really care.

Pinside told me what a dumbass I was . Mike still took it back and he worked it out with the shipper and sent me another one

#3106 27 days ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

Ice linked the wrong document.
You need to review Amex Purchase Protection.
II. DESCRIPTION OF BENEFITS
What is Covered
The Plan will pay a benefit for an item up to $10,000 for any one Covered Incident and up to $50,000 for all Covered Incidents per Card Member Account during a calendar year for:
1. The lesser of:
a. the cost to repair the item;
b. the cost to replace the item; or
c. reimbursement for the item.
2. A Covered Incident related to Natural Disaster will have a maximum per occurrence limit of $500 for any one Covered Incident.
For Accounts eligible and enrolled in the Membership Rewards Points and/or Pay with Points program(s), an item is eligible for coverage under this Plan if it was purchased through the redemption of Membership Rewards Points and/or Pay with Points. Our benefit payment will not exceed the amount of the Membership Reward Points and/or Pay with Points You redeemed to purchase the item. Benefits will not be paid when redemption of Membership Rewards Points and/or Pay with Points have been transferred to a non-eligible card account or non-Card Members.
Our benefit payment will not include payment of expenses or fees related to shipping and handling, installation, assembly, professional advice, maintenance or other service charges or any product rebates, discounts or money received from lowest price comparison programs that reduced the original cost of the item. Our benefit payment will not exceed the amount charged to Your Account (including applicable sales tax). Repair must be performed by an authorized repair facility or other professional repair facility, as outlined in the manufacturer’s warranty.
Length of Coverage
Purchase Protection provides benefits, for one hundred and twenty (120) days (ninety (90) days for New York Residents) from the date of purchase, if a Covered Incident occurs with respect to the item You purchased and charged to Your Account.
Only a Card Member has a legal and equitable right to any insurance benefit that may be available under this plan.

General Exclusions

• Normal wear and tear of any kind,
inherent product defect or manufacturer’s defects, or damage to
an item purchased for play and while the item was being used for its intended purposes.
(Including but not limited to sports equipment, items used for or during recreation, and motorized remote control items)

I am confused how people are going to get through this part of the agreement with their CC company.

#3107 27 days ago
Quoted from tpir:

General Exclusions

• Normal wear and tear of any kind,

inherent product defect or manufacturer’s defects, or damage to

an item purchased for play and while the item was being used for its intended purposes.
(Including but not limited to sports equipment, items used for or during recreation, and motorized remote control items)
I am confused how people are going to get through this part of the agreement with their CC company.

I know one person was able to use the purchase protection to get a replacement cabinet when their original was coming apart at the seams.

And Amex replaced my Kuros due to dead pixels when I couldn’t get anywhere with Pioneer.

It may not be a slam dunk, but it’s worth a shot.

#3108 27 days ago
Quoted from Caviel:

My NIB JP3 Pro was just delivered today. I can't say if it's a thick or thin clear coat.

Anybody else long for the good old days when thick or thin only referred to different pizza crusts?

21
#3109 27 days ago

Not buying any more new Stern NIB.
Staying away for a long time. Stern’s poor communication and quality issues are not helping their case. It was hard to cancel my JPLE and not order Elvira but I am standing tall.

Plus let’s see what the market does next year- I suspect we will buy some of these between 50-75 cents on the dollar late next year.

#3110 27 days ago
Quoted from metallik:

That's because Tron was essentially a premium level game, compared to "pro" level regular Tron. They didn't have three levels back then. Demand for Tron LEs are what caused Stern to introduce the Premium line... i.e. "unlimited" LEs. Differences between Pro and Premium games these days are about equal to Tron's differences back then.

I understand, and it explains why LE's make no sense to me now (since the gameplay is identical and the aesthetic differences are almost always really minor). Beatles is the most dramatic example of 3 identical games that only differ by artwork/trim. I have no idea why anyone would pay up for a Diamond/Platinum.

#3111 27 days ago
Quoted from snaroff:

I have no idea why anyone would pay up for a Diamond/Platinum.

Between the Beatles and Supreme, Stern had almost lost me anyway with poor communication way before the pooling issues came around. The last straw for me was seeing current NIB games with a asking price of 25k or more.

Luckily I have never had any of the pooling and chipping before I stopped buying Stern, I was just done with them anyway.

My TWD is perfect and will never leave. It never gets played anymore, but too awesome to ever leave and I will get back to it.

#3112 26 days ago
Quoted from Caviel:

My NIB JP3 Pro was just delivered today, the date on the back of the cabinet is Sept 7, 2019. There is art spacing around the posts and no pooling that I can see. I can feel a very slight edge near the inserts, but nothing otherwise. I don't have any comparison points so I can't say if it's a thick or thin clear coat...

This is an intersting observation re: the dimples. I just picked up a Tron (2012) and I noticed that it also has somewhat thinner clearcoat than what has become the norm in recent years. You can see and slightly feel the edges of the inserts, etc. It also has very shallow dimpling only.

#3113 26 days ago

So would it be assumed that the new Star Wars comic art package editions will have some sort of mitigation on this or is it just assumed that this is the new normal from Stern?

#3114 26 days ago

I'm not sure that anyone here has ever done a chargeback, but here's a real-world example of how it works.
Recently, I had a new roof put on my house (rental house, actually) for the handsome sum of 9200.00. The roofing company would not discount for a cash payment so I figured, screw them, put it on my card. Literally-after the 1st rainstorm there were leaks around the chimney flashing and at a weird intersection of the roof. 2 different places. The leaks were bad. Very bad. Mind you, this roof had NEVER leaked before when the old roof was on it. I merely replaced it because it was approaching 25 years old and I believe that the best protection is prevention. Long story even longer, I had the roofing company out there 4 different times and nope, no resolution at all. I figured this was WAY over the limits that a CC company would accept a chargeback on, but they did and I was given the option of being made whole (9200.00 credited back to me) or to have an independant unrelated roofer come out to repair the shoddy work on the original roofer's dime. Not wanting to be a dick to the original roofer, I took option B and everything worked out great. Original roofer got his 9200 back, he paid the good roofer whatever it cost him to correct his shit work, and my tenant is happy.
THIS is how a chargeback works. In the pinball world it would go like this:
You're unhappy with your pin, due to defects.
You've contacted Stern/JJP/Whomever
They ignore you or offer a substandard solution
You refuse said solution
You tell them to refund your $$ and THEY make arrangements to pick the pin up
Once they get the pin back, their $$ is restored.
You're made whole and hopefully you'll think twice about buying from them in the future.
Of note....you CANNOT merely have buyer's remorse and do this, you must have a legitimate problem with the pin. Crappy QC playfield issues qualify.
Use your CC smartly as they'll be your best allies in situations such as these....

#3115 26 days ago

Plenty of distros accept cards

Like all of them

BoA offers 2.625% rewards. On a $7499 purchase thats $7,302 shipped

Go thru ebay & paypal then get an extra hundo in ebay bucks

Now you've got a NIB for $7202

Since Stern is fuck'n everyone & playing dirty then do the same. File the claim on day 1 with PP, the CC, ebay & Stern

Just send in some pics of the bazillion other shitty PF's posted here & start the charge back process.

By the time Stern makes it right your game will have pooling & chipping anyway. If not, give the PF to some cornholed sucker here that got ignored.

Stern act'n like the Pop Copy Dave Chapelle skit

"If they have mac tell em we're PC. If they have PC tell em we're mac. If they have both tell em the system is down. Why? Because fuck em thats why"

#3116 26 days ago
Quoted from CubeSnake:

I'm not sure that anyone here has ever done a chargeback, but here's a real-world example of how it works.
Recently, I had a new roof put on my house (rental house, actually) for the handsome sum of 9200.00. The roofing company would not discount for a cash payment so I figured, screw them, put it on my card. Literally-after the 1st rainstorm there were leaks around the chimney flashing and at a weird intersection of the roof. 2 different places. The leaks were bad. Very bad. Mind you, this roof had NEVER leaked before when the old roof was on it. I merely replaced it because it was approaching 25 years old and I believe that the best protection is prevention. Long story even longer, I had the roofing company out there 4 different times and nope, no resolution at all. I figured this was WAY over the limits that a CC company would accept a chargeback on, but they did and I was given the option of being made whole (9200.00 credited back to me) or to have an independant unrelated roofer come out to repair the shoddy work on the original roofer's dime. Not wanting to be a dick to the original roofer, I took option B and everything worked out great. Original roofer got his 9200 back, he paid the good roofer whatever it cost him to correct his shit work, and my tenant is happy.
THIS is how a chargeback works. In the pinball world it would go like this:
You're unhappy with your pin, due to defects.
You've contacted Stern/JJP/Whomever
They ignore you or offer a substandard solution
You refuse said solution
You tell them to refund your $$ and THEY make arrangements to pick the pin up
Once they get the pin back, their $$ is restored.
You're made whole and hopefully you'll think twice about buying from them in the future.
Of note....you CANNOT merely have buyer's remorse and do this, you must have a legitimate problem with the pin. Crappy QC playfield issues qualify.
Use your CC smartly as they'll be your best allies in situations such as these....

Told yall, my CC company said it is totally legit if there is a defect with machine and they refuse to fix

#3117 26 days ago
Quoted from PW79:

"If they have mac tell em we're PC. If they have PC tell em we're mac. If they have both tell em the system is down. Why? Because fuck em thats why"

"My Butt Itch!"

"And, I took a shower."

#3118 26 days ago
Quoted from PW79:

Since Stern is fuck'n everyone & playing dirty then do the same. File the claim on day 1 with PP, the CC, ebay & Stern
Just send in some pics of the bazillion other shitty PF's posted here & start the charge back process.
By the time Stern makes it right your game will have pooling & chipping anyway. If not, give the PF to some cornholed sucker here that got ignored.
Stern act'n like the Pop Copy Dave Chapelle skit
"

It is a shame that it has come to this.

#3119 26 days ago
Quoted from pinballaddicted:

It is a shame that it has come to this.

I’m shocked it took this long.

Too many of the folks here are gluttons for punishment.

#3120 25 days ago

Figured I would snap a few pics of my Pro playfield this morning as a comparison for everyone on the thread. Next Level received stock on Nov 6th and I happened to purchase the same day, the table was delivered to my house Nov 11th. My cabinet's date is Sept 7, 2019.

Upper flipper post

Raptor cage right front posts

Upper playfield from between the slings

I can feel a very slight edge between the table artwork and inserts, as well as the insert plastic and insert center art/label edges. No pooling that I can find.

#3121 25 days ago

I got my premium JP today and it plays 100% out of the box. I initially backed off my premium order then got back in once I knew the playfield issues had been addressed.

Pretty happy with my purchase so far.

#3122 25 days ago
Quoted from PW79:

Plenty of distros accept cards
Like all of them
BoA offers 2.625% rewards. On a $7499 purchase thats $7,302 shipped
Go thru ebay & paypal then get an extra hundo in ebay bucks
Now you've got a NIB for $7202
Since Stern is fuck'n everyone & playing dirty then do the same. File the claim on day 1 with PP, the CC, ebay & Stern
Just send in some pics of the bazillion other shitty PF's posted here & start the charge back process.
By the time Stern makes it right your game will have pooling & chipping anyway. If not, give the PF to some cornholed sucker here that got ignored.
Stern act'n like the Pop Copy Dave Chapelle skit
"If they have mac tell em we're PC. If they have PC tell em we're mac. If they have both tell em the system is down. Why? Because fuck em thats why"

#3123 25 days ago

How do I fix my trex it’s not centered when trex multiball happens it can’t open its mouth gets hung up on plastic on bottom lip. Is there an adjustment in menu settings?

#3124 25 days ago
Quoted from Sandeep:

How do I fix my trex it’s not centered when trex multiball happens it can’t open its mouth gets hung up on plastic on bottom lip. Is there an adjustment in menu settings?

Wrong thread Sandeep, check out the premium/le thread where T Rex adjustments are explained.

18
#3125 25 days ago
Quoted from CubeSnake:

I'm not sure that anyone here has ever done a chargeback, but here's a real-world example of how it works.

I recommended chargeback because I HAVE filed one on a PINBALL related item. A playfield, a playfield with pooling and chipping and misdrilled holes o be exact. Exactly what this thread has been about no less. Filled the chargeback request, faxed copies of email correspondence with seller/mamifactirer including pictures. It all spoke for itself - I was sold a crap product and given crap service. Money was back in my account in 3 days and "officially" ruled in my favor 3 weeks later.

#3126 23 days ago
PB060048 (resized).JPG
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#3127 23 days ago
Quoted from newpinbin:

[quoted image]

Looks good.

#3128 23 days ago

Looks fucked!

#3129 23 days ago

My Feb 19 build Star Trek Prem looks perfect. Got it last weekend for a show special, so has about 450 plays on it so far. Maybe the theory of letting it sit and harden is true? I'm happy with this NIB purchase - still have the warranty too...

#3130 23 days ago
Quoted from king-pin:

Looks fucked!

What game is it?

#3131 23 days ago
Quoted from GoodOmens:

My Feb 19 build Star Trek Prem looks perfect. Got it last weekend for a show special, so has about 450 plays on it so far. Maybe the theory of letting it sit and harden is true? I'm happy with this NIB purchase - still have the warranty too...

Pretty sure that's not a theory... at least according to experts on clear. I think that's, more or less, a collector's hope.

#3132 23 days ago

Black Knight NIB

10
#3133 23 days ago

Screw nib. All this crappy stock is just sitting at distributors waiting to be purchased by an unlucky person.

#3134 23 days ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

Screw nib. All this crappy stock is just sitting at distributors waiting to be purchased by an unlucky person.

I am done with NIB overpriced games. There is no way to justify these prices for what you are receiving. These distributors are make over well $1500 on every game sold.

#3135 23 days ago
Quoted from newpinbin:

I am done with NIB overpriced games. There is no way to justify these prices for what you are receiving. These distributors are make over well $1500 on every game sold.

I am with you. Same here. Let the simps get screwed. Not me.

#3136 23 days ago
Quoted from newpinbin:

I am done with NIB overpriced games. There is no way to justify these prices for what you are receiving. These distributors are make over well $1500 on every game sold.

Are they really making $1500 a game?

#3137 23 days ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Are they really making $1500 a game?

No!

#3138 23 days ago
Quoted from newpinbin:

I am done with NIB overpriced games. There is no way to justify these prices for what you are receiving. These distributors are make over well $1500 on every game sold.

Care to back up your $1500 claim with some non-anecdotal proof?

#3139 23 days ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Care to back up your $1500 claim with some non-anecdotal proof?

It’s closer to $800, tops, I believe.

A few years ago a major distro misquoted me, thinking I was going to sell a game direct to a customer. I can’t remember all of the specifics, but I do remember being surprised at the number.

#3140 23 days ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

It’s closer to $800, tops, I believe.
A few years ago a major distro misquoted me, thinking I was going to sell a game direct to a customer. I can’t remember all of the specifics, but I do remember being surprised at the number.

I have no clue what distros make but...

When a Stern sells on eBay, based on the fees published online, it certainly appears the distro pays 3% to PayPal & 10% to eBay.

So they net $6524 after fees on a Premium

On a Pro it’s a net of $5045 after fees.

They still have to pay Stern & profit to keep selling on eBay.

Wait until the chargebacks start to hit. The distros are gonna hurt, which is terrible, but eventually it will make its way to Stern.

Guys if Stern isn’t resolving things for your peers here & you buy a game with defects you better file a claim ASAP while waiting for Stern to do the right thing. That’s way if they don’t, which it sounds like they won’t, you’re not left holding a grenade.

Capture those credit card rewards to reduce the games effective cost by 1%-3% & use eBay to get a $100 kickback & take comfort in knowing you have the CC warranty as well as protection options with eBay & PayPal too.

Or keep wiring money & writing checks in the back alley to a distro like it’s 1994 & enjoy the run around & shit product.

#3141 23 days ago
Quoted from newpinbin:

These distributors are make over well $1500 on every game sold.

Not even close.

If I told you the profit on a JJP SE, you'd shit your pants.

#3142 23 days ago
Quoted from PW79:

When a Stern sells on eBay, based on the fees published online, it certainly appears the distro pays 3% to PayPal & 10% to eBay.

So they net $6524 after fees on a Premium

On a Pro it’s a net of $5045 after fees.

You can negotiate better fees than those, but even with zero fees and full MSRP, I can assure you it's less than $1.5k profit per game.

#3143 23 days ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

Not even close.
If I told you the profit on a JJP SE, you'd shit your pants.

$500? Oops I just pooped alittle lol

#3144 23 days ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

Not even close.
If I told you the profit on a JJP SE, you'd shit your pants.

Tough way to make a buck......

#3145 23 days ago
Quoted from yancy:

You can negotiate better fees than those, but even with zero fees and full MSRP, I can assure you it's less than $1.5k profit per game.

Just tell us what it is

Do you know?

I don’t want to be right. I just want to know.

#3146 23 days ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

Not even close.
If I told you the profit on a JJP SE, you'd shit your pants.

Quoted from PW79:

Just tell us what it is
Do you know?
I don’t want to be right. I just want to know.

It is possible. Why do you think they always offer FREE shipping.

#3147 22 days ago

no one has mentioned that i might of seen,is that the STERN clearcoats on the playfields are all water based.....cheaper?...yes.....EPA codes?....possible

#3148 21 days ago
Quoted from MOON_MISSION:

no one has mentioned that i might of seen,is that the STERN clearcoats on the playfields are all water based.....cheaper?...yes.....EPA codes?....possible

This *has* to be a process problem. Meaning the playfield manufacturer lacks the necessary processes and manufacturing tolerances to properly apply the clear-coat products in a consistent, reproducible manner at scale.

Maybe they are switching their CC supplier or specific product over time and not adjusting their production processes to match, maybe their factory and training and insepection processes aren't up to the standards required by the modern clear-coat products, maybe they are buying clearance CC products off the back of a truck to save a few $, etc.

The point being that I don't believe for a minute that modern water-based clearcoats are inherently inferior or incapable of doing the job well, it's just they their application requires more stringent care than the products of the past.

Cases in point:

I had a 2016 NIB Met Pro where the clear started to chip away from the drain-hole in the first 50 plays. Many games produced around that time had similar brittle CC issues, shooter lanes losing large chunks of CC, etc.

I now have a Metallica Pro that was manufactured in mid-2017 that has 14k plays on it and the pf is in incredible condition for the plays. No ungraceful chipping, etc.

I also have a IMDNLE that has <300 plays on it and is losing all the paint and CC around the posts.

Basically my persception is that it's completely hit or miss with NIB games whether you will get one that will start losing CC almost immediately or will gracefully degrade over many thousands of plays (as they should). My personal experience has been you probably only have about 1/3 chance of getting a "good one" with games made in the last 4 years.

So the manufacturers need to tighten their PF manufacturing tolerances. The problem is that there is a prevelant attitude in pinball manufacturing that the "ways they've always done it" is just fine, when really, it obviously isn't.

This is clearly shown when you see those Stern factory videos where they have a guy "test spraying" a playfield with CC without so much as a mask on in what looks like the some old shed out back (no contaminant or strict moisture or temperature control), or the one with the playfield QA station where the light table used to inspect inserts isn't even plugged in, it becomes obvious that Stern lacks the processes and training to create a quality product consistently, at volume.

#3149 21 days ago
Quoted from Fytr:

This *has* to be a process problem. Meaning the playfield manufacturer lacks the necessary processes and manufacturing tolerances to properly apply the clear-coat products in a consistent, reproducible manner at scale.
Maybe they are switching their CC supplier or specific product over time and not adjusting their production processes to match, maybe their factory and training and insepection processes aren't up to the standards required by the modern clear-coat products, maybe they are buying clearance CC products off the back of a truck to save a few $, etc.
The point being that I don't believe for a minute that modern water-based clearcoats are inherently inferior or incapable of doing the job well, it's just they their application requires more stringent care than the products of the past.
Cases in point:
I had a 2016 NIB Met Pro where the clear started to chip away from the drain-hole in the first 50 plays. Many games produced around that time had similar brittle CC issues, shooter lanes losing large chunks of CC, etc.
I now have a Metallica Pro that was manufactured in mid-2017 that has 14k plays on it and the pf is in incredible condition for the plays. No ungraceful chipping, etc.
I also have a IMDNLE that has &lt;300 plays on it and is losing all the paint and CC around the posts.
Basically my persception is that it's completely hit or miss with NIB games whether you will get one that will start losing CC almost immediately or will gracefully degrade over many thousands of plays (as they should). My personal experience has been you probably only have about 1/3 chance of getting a "good one" with games made in the last 4 years.
So the manufacturers need to tighten their PF manufacturing tolerances. The problem is that there is a prevelant attitude in pinball manufacturing that the "ways they've always done it" is just fine, when really, it obviously isn't.
This is clearly shown when you see those Stern factory videos where they have a guy "test spraying" a playfield with CC without so much as a mask on in what looks like the some old shed out back (no contaminant or strict moisture or temperature control), or the one with the playfield QA station where the light table used to inspect inserts isn't even plugged in, it becomes obvious that Stern lacks the processes and training to create a quality product consistently, at volume.

Well then they slow down or die. I worked in a hyper plant in the late eighties. Product output climbed every year while quality declined. After year 4 I quit and a year later folks stopped buying product from them due to horrible issues and plant was gone.

At first we thought it was moving the product to somewhere else ( we were told Mexico), but that never happened. Owner took dwindling profits and sold rights. Company was located where I worked for 75 years. Can happen anytime.

#3150 21 days ago
Quoted from Fytr:

Looks like the some old shed out back (no contaminant or strict moisture or temperature control), or the one with the playfield QA station where the light table used to inspect inserts isn't even plugged in, it becomes obvious that Stern lacks the processes and training to create a quality product consistently, at volume.

This all the way. When I first started using laquer, I didn't have any ability to control humidity, application thickness, or any of those other variables that most people ignore but are laid out quite specifically on the side of the can. I had trapped solvents, poor adhesion, and soft finishes. A proper environment is critical for any type of specialty finish.

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