Automated up in Connecticut takes plastic for payment.

That's where I'd gotten my NIB prior...Have to verify w Mike, as he's a great guy too. Never used plastic as I don't carry debt for these things, but it sure seems the protection is needed lately ( and I'd just clear the AMEX bill).

Guess I never asked, and was never offered... I'll be asking...

I feel sorry for anyone who gets left "hung out to dry" by Stern customer support. These playfield issues are clearly manufacturing faults, why should paying customers be expected to accept chipping clear and artwork on expensive "lifestyle" products?
Stern has been in business for quite some time and I believe it's safe to say the last couple of years must have been pretty profitable. In light of their 30+ year experience, crucial parts like playfields simply must not show these kind of defects. This is as much unacceptable as the chutzpah of sending out sanding paper and some clear in a bottle to "fix" said defects. I expect more from the largest and oldest pinball manufacturer in business.
I'm so out on buying NIB when it means even the risk of putting up with shit like this. And yes, this goes for JJP too.

The problem is Stern going out of business if they want to give everybody a new populated playfield that have blank spots.
So they won't.

Wouldn't be the end of pinball. It was illegal in the US at one point and it still survived. Change is not always easy...

I don’t think Stern will go out of business. If everybody did a charge back the distributor will first take the hit. Manufacturers need to support them or there will be nobody to sell their product. Then Stern will go after the manufacturers of the bad playfields they are the ones that may not survive a hit like this. And if nothing is done and people stop buying, like me after 3 bad playfields, then everyone along the supply chain will suffer. As long as parts are still being made for games then there will always be plenty of pinball machines to buy and play.

These are the best of times for pinball manufacturers like Stern. You heard Dwight say they have been growing at about a 25% clip the last few years.

I know they shipped around 10K a few years ago so you can do the math.

And.....they along with many manufacturing companies received a significant tax break which it appears they are at least putting some of that money back into labor and hiring talent.

There is a major "wealth effect" going on right now with these highly impulse discretionary purchases. By its very definition Stern is considered a "consumer cyclical" company. Emphasis on the word "cyclical".

In other words, when interest rates are low, wages are rising, unemployment is low and the economy is at an all time high its hard to get any better for a pinball manufacturer and a whole lot of other businesses as well.

IF we had a bad stock market and declining economy, like 2008, that +25% would be going in the other direction. Yeah i know, some of you don't remember that date because it was so long ago, I guarantee you Stern does.

Does the party go on forever? Just in my own case, without this stock market and the overall "wealth effect" I'm buying pinball machines like a deranged crazy person.

I have "PAID IN FULL" for WONKACE, POTCCE, TBL, ELVIRALE and JPLE. That's about $53k worth of games of which i have only received ONE of them so far.

If i hadn't made so much money on Apple stock recently i probably would have purchased 2 of those games maybe?

I'm literally WORN OUT with JJP and have learned my lesson. No mas! Not until I pay and you ship the next day. PERIOD.

With Stern, the theme is gonna have to be great going forward for me to buy anything.

MBrLE is gorgeous and HIGH quality so CGC will get my first look on any new games coming out like CC and its new license, maybe MM.

The 3D back panel with special lighting on a game like MB, may seem like a little thing. But it goes to the overall quality and WOW factor. Same goes for the topper.

I'm amazed every time i look at that game.

Then take a look at a Stern back panel. They mail it in. At least on JP they tried to do a bit of the 3D effect and it looks pretty good.

My message to Stern, QUIT ripping out features on games you are trying to sell as "premium" and "LE's".

Put it ALL in there as the designer wanted it and then put your markup on it. If that means one LE is $500 more than the next one then so be it!!!!

The idea of every LE now is priced at $8995, no matter what's in it, for a cornerstone game, is on its face absurd and insulting.

If you need to charge me more because you put it all in there, do it.

The last compelling LE Stern made was TRON. The LE differences are very rarely compelling. If folks have extra money and truly want to add uniqueness, there are more creative and cost effective options. The idea that you have an x/500 game is BS when the differences are purely cosmetic.

The CGC LE toppers are pretty stunning and worthy of the LE differentiation.

Don't forget Star Trek LE.

Beat me to it!

Automated is outstanding, and is who I have purchased all of my NIB from. When I asked about the "cleargate" dilemma before recently purchasing my DP pro he was completely aware of the problems and 100% assured me that if anything happened relating to that issue that I would be taken care of quickly and without issue which solidified my purchase decision, again.

He is where I've gotten all but 1 of my NIB from.....outstanding company, but have worries that even he couldn't help if the factory doesn't stand behind the product.

my best NIB experience was with automated.

AMEX UPDATE:

Spoke with AMEX Platinum support about an hour ago, and posed this exact question:

"Can you provide additional information on how AMEX extended warranty/ service plans could help if I buy a $10k pinball machine, and a serious electrical or build problem develops in x amount of months?" Addressed both the playfields and expensive electronics with him.

He said there are several areas that AMEX would provide valuable protection on a high dollar purchase such as this. The first item they needed from me: " exact warranty statements from each company". He could then run this through their adjustment dept. and give me a definitive answer.

Can someone PM me the stated warranty from both companies? I'm sure it's posted somewhere, but want to be certain I'm giving them the right info.

Their (AMEX) extended warranty service provides anywhere from 2 to 5 years of additional coverage at no cost, if purchased w AMEX exclusively. Apparently and adjuster would decide if the machine is repairable, replaceable, etc. in regards to components as well as the entire machine.

A case request was created (told him I wasn't buying one, but wanted to be informed), and once I got them the info, they would let me know.

Sounds unbelievably promising, as it covers items valued at $10k, but not to exceed $50k in a single year.

Warranty for stern is in the back of every manual. It only covers dmd/lcd and boards, and only for original owner. There is no warranty on the playfields. I don’t know how you would win a claim through your CC company. The only warranty extension your Amex would cover is boards/lcd. I’d bet JJPs is similar.
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Guess what? That's good! My new JP premium is exactly as you describe, and so is my Iron Man VE which I unboxed over five years ago and still has a perfect playfield. Sounds like they're back to the good stuff.

JJP covers every part for 30 days.

Not sure I have ever seen a playfield with such thin clear coat. As long as it fixes issues then great. The game played fantastic and actually better than the thicker cleared pro sitting right beside it.

Whoa!!! So the machines themselves don't carry any warranty as an assembly? Like a new car that only covers the engine?

Doesn't CGC offer a 2 year warranty on their games? Feeling nauseous as I type this, as it is too crazy if actually true....

So manufacturers are replacing playfields, mechs etc. out of good faith? Mind being blown....

https://www.chicago-gaming.com/warranties/afm_mmr_warranty_card.pdf

So you basically have 30 days with jjp to file a claim if your playfield has issues. If your credit card company has a double warranty, you are at 60 days. But, you have to prove there is a defect. Is pooling a defect? Is a small chip a defect? In your eyes (and mine) yes, but maybe not to the CC company or the manufacturer.

I’m not trying to be argumentative here, just trying to think it through.

if you buy a car and the paint chips in a small spot, can you do a chargeback? The car company at best will give you touch up paint. If you buy an appliance and there is a small chip, can you do a chargeback? Same thing, they probably send touch up paint. I’m sure it’s not what people want to hear and I’m not saying chips aren’t bad, they are very bad on new games and I’d be very upset, just not sure it’s as easy as people make it sound to file a chargeback. Has anyone actually done it and been successful?

I think anyone doing a chargeback will face a steep uphill battle. Better to go to the manufacturer and seek a solution. For games with chips, people have received unpopulated playfields, which should put the next buyer of your game at ease.

Whew....looks like the company we don't need the warranty for has one....

I'll follow through, but looks like this bridge has been crossed many times prior......

I have to agree with Lermods

I can’t possibly see getting a chargeback for pooling and realistically minor chipping as well

I think as much as it sucks, the best case we have to deal with is hope they get it right in the future or simply don’t buy their products anymore

My JPLE also has zero issues and thin clear

My MunstersLE looks great but has some some pooling. Elvira up next

Cgc excludes wear and tear, you’ll have to prove it’s not. Assuming Cgc determines you have a defect, you have to send them the part at your cost and labor. If you have a playfield issue, does this mean depopulate it at your cost, send it, they send a new one and you repopulate it? I think technically it does.

AMEX adds an extra 2 YEARS to the warranty. I think a single chip wouldn't bother most. Much more concerned why it happened, and what these things will look/ play like down the road.

In your car example, GM was very in tune to color coats not sticking to the primer in around '10 (?)....started as a small grey spot, eventually entire panels were grey. They repainted alot of cars.

I don't have the pf issues on any of my games (just wear on some of the older ones), and cancelled my POTCCE and WonkaCE orders when all this started surfacing. Have never needed to file anything, and never paid with a card.

Guess I'm just sorry reading this....

Some distros will open the game up, inspect it first and then ship it out

That of course assumes it’s not drop shipped direct from Stern

Think you're right Doug....is what it is...

I don’t think you’re being argumentative and I respect your opinion.

We filed a chargeback on a La Cornue range because there was a mismatch in the paint color on the door. We won the chargeback and the manufacturer sent out a technician to install the new door. The process took around 3 months, I believe.

I would give Stern or any other manufacturer 5 business days to get back to me. If I don’t hear from them within those 5 days, I’m filing the chargeback.

I just talked to my CC company and they said if the product is defective and I show proof the game got returned they would do a chargeback. Key was showing proof the Distro or Stern took possession of the game back.

GM didn’t replace the entire car I think is the issue here Mark

Lemon laws are in effect for that if can prove a multitude of problems and issues

For me, the pf issues will get resolved if not already

I may or may not buy for the other reasons I stated above

Stripping stuff out of LE and premium games just to make an extra buck or two is FAR more concerning to me.

Make the F ing game the best it can be as originally designed! The pro is cheaper because it has less features. WTF

I think this would work as well. Get your chargeback and then force Stern/JJP to send out a populated playfield replacement and or take the game back.

I will say this, every time I have done a chargeback with my CC company the money was refunded back on my card within 1 business day. Every single time almost not questions ask.

I’d love to see someone try it!

Is anybody gonna run the risk of shipping the pin back? And they keep it unless you pay to ship it back?

Seems F Ed to me

Have you ever gotten a $10k chargeback?

I like the newer thin clear on my JP Premium...way way less dimpling, almost none after 600 games, very tiny actually compared to my SW premium...if that is the new normal going forward, I like it. looks glossy all the same waxed up to a nice shine...hearkens back to older machines without the flaking, chipping, clear pooling as of late

Not $8-$10k, but did a $4000 and money was there next day.

Anyone know how a cc charge back works if the credit card was used through PayPal?

That's basically a courtesy to the credit card client. Unless it was something obvious like fraudulent activity, the investigation is still pending, and if the vendor makes a solid case and they side with them, they can return the charge to your card as well as potential interest/fees for not having paid it.

It's basically irrelevant. Paypal wants you to deal with them, but in almost all cases, it's easier and better for you to deal with your CC company. If you are good-willed and patient and have plenty of time left for chargeback, you can try working with Paypal first and if that doesn't work, you can still do the CC chargeback.

Agreed.....

I've never understood why LE's couldn't have more usable features, as they cost more money. Apparently, it's not an acceptable practice (all games MUST play the same) by the community, so the manufacturers are capitalizing on it. The QC is really getting to me more, actually, as it just seems nothing ever gets "finished", and overall, the machines cost alot more, but feels like we are getting less from that view.

If you haven't heard that Christopher Franchi interview it confirms again what we all know.

Gary and crew think they are so smart seeing how much they can squeeze out of a game and keep the prices sky high.

I would be thinking about how we could squeeze MORE in even if i had to raise prices to meet our margins. The "wealth effect" and great economy is not going to last forever! Because when the shit hits the fan, and it will, people will remember how they were treated.

The customer first should be what they think about every day. How can we keep delivering a greater pinball experience to our customers?

I think most designers, coders and everyone else that work at Stern are of that mindset and care passionately.

It's Gary and his partners grabbing the short term gains, and at the same time its setting up for longer term pain. That +25% production can turn around to -25% in the blink of an eye when you take your customers for granted AND then other factors start to against you like the economy.

I think you made the 100% right move getting that MMrRE

Really excited for it......a shame that one of the other 2 companies is pretty much dead to me at this point....I'm just one customer though, I guess....

Stern would never hire you with an attitude like that because you make way too much sense.

That's because Tron was essentially a premium level game, compared to "pro" level regular Tron. They didn't have three levels back then. Demand for Tron LEs are what caused Stern to introduce the Premium line... i.e. "unlimited" LEs. Differences between Pro and Premium games these days are about equal to Tron's differences back then.

and its coming....sooner than later...

My NIB JP3 Pro was just delivered today, the date on the back of the cabinet is Sept 7, 2019. There is art spacing around the posts and no pooling that I can see. I can feel a very slight edge near the inserts, but nothing otherwise. I don't have any comparison points so I can't say if it's a thick or thin clear coat...

Maybe the LE should mean playfield warranty. I think CGC ups warranty with each model...maybe Stern does too, no idea.

Automated/Pinballs.com is the best. Mike and Kayla are great people to work with. Always a positive experience.

I had a Stern distributor tell me that the internal criteria for whether a playfield will be addressed is more generous for an LE vs Pro/Premium. Don’t have any details or specific examples, but found it interesting.

Almost 20 years ago I won a whole lot of stuff on ebay I was going to resell in my business. Right after I paid (cc through paypal) a friend told me about a ebay seller that they had found to be a crook and was already wanted by the FBI. That was the same seller I had just sent over 10k to.

I contacted paypal and asked them to cancel the transaction, I had only paid maybe 2 hours earlier, and they would not do anything.

I contacted my lawyer and he told me to buy a camcorder and film what UPS brings.

Anyway what I had to do was take all my evidence to the police, get a police report done, and send it to my cc company and they charged back paypal then. I only lost maybe 400.00 that was already in my paypal account, and a whole lot of time.

All the while I was also in constant contact with the FBI and the FBI ended up paying me well to come to court 700 miles away and testify against the crook. The crook received 60 months in federal pen, I was shocked that was all with all the crap they were pulling. The FBI told me that for a while half of all their calls were about this crook.

They may not hire me or you Terry but they should listen to us.