(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

85 days ago



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There are 3125 posts in this topic. You are on page 6 of 63.
#251 81 days ago

Welp, I got to play a different JP2 tonight... and it was far worse with the PF issues than the other JP2 I first showed. This one has the bubbling full on cracking at one sling and it has chipped off on the other showing bare wood. 0-2 for ones I’ve seen in the wild...
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#252 81 days ago
Quoted from Yoko2una:

Welp, I got to play a different JP2 tonight... and it was far worse with the PF issues than the other JP2 I first showed. This one has the bubbling full on cracking at one sling and it has chipped off on the other showing bare wood. 0-2 for ones I’ve seen in the wild...
[quoted image][quoted image]

That second pic shows the star post edge below both the clear AND artwork.

Soft clear, new rubber = leaning post?

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#253 81 days ago

This problem is ink adhesion problem from digital printing direct on the playfield not the clear coat

the ink is coming away from the playfield, in the past clear would chip leaving the artwork behind

this is why you will never see this on any screen printed Playfield

#254 81 days ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

This problem is ink adhesion problem from digital printing direct on the playfield not the clear coat
the ink is coming away from the playfield, in the past clear would chip leaving the artwork behind
this is why you will never see this on any screen printed Playfield

I think you may be right.

This picture isn't clear coming off.

It's like a bad playfield overlay that is coming off.

Makes sense that the ink is not adhering to playfield.

How much more does it cost to do good old screen printed?

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#255 81 days ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

I think you may be right.
This picture isn't clear coming off.
It's like a bad playfield overlay that is coming off.
Makes sense that the ink is not adhering to playfield.
How much more does it cost to do good old screen printed?[quoted image]

That pf will look like a nightmare in ten years.

#256 81 days ago
Quoted from Dr-pin:

That pf will look like a nightmare in ten years.

This is unbelievable i tell ya.

#257 81 days ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

Just to make sure I understand,
Dimples good
Ripples bad?

I know right, it's like a bad dad joke... ha ha

Anyway, so humidity or moisture in the wood could be a possible cause for this less than usual adhesion hey? ... or is it just that digital printed inks don't stick so well these days?

I'm sure the dimples in the soft wood distorting/stressing the surface (and the ink) is not going to help with adhesion across the entire playing surface.... beyond just where there are posts.

#258 81 days ago
Quoted from jellikit:

Some post pictures from a number of machines and manufacturers last night, sorry difficulty with some lighting and no JJP. I didn't see pooling or chipping with any of these titles.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

There is washer/post pooling in the background of the second Munsters picture that you posted.

This sucks a lot.

#259 81 days ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

I think you may be right.
This picture isn't clear coming off.
It's like a bad playfield overlay that is coming off.
Makes sense that the ink is not adhering to playfield.
How much more does it cost to do good old screen printed?[quoted image]

If the clear was fully cured, it should be rigid? I would think that the lack of paint adhesion would cause the clear to crack, not buckle. But again, I’m not a master on clear. So I could be wrong.

#260 81 days ago
Quoted from PinJim:

If the clear was fully cured, it should be rigid? I would think that the lack of paint adhesion would cause the clear to crack, not buckle. But again, I’m not a master on clear. So I could be wrong.

Clear is mixed to give a desired amount of flex verse rigidity. Basically it can be a range. Harder, stiffer clear will crack and chip instead of give. You can see how it’s hard to satisfy all applications with one “right” mix.

The fact the material is not just compressing.... but wrinkling as Eric so correctly put it is interesting IMO and what keeps me wondering how the different layers in play

#261 81 days ago

We’ve had JP on location for 2 days. Pooling around post, and chipped clear in 2 days. Not cool. I feel really bad for distributors as they wait for the unfortunate calls to roll in like ours will.

#262 81 days ago
Quoted from tpir:

There is washer/post pooling in the background of the second Munsters picture that you posted.
This sucks a lot.

Good catch!

#263 81 days ago

Wow.
I was big in the hobby - 30 ish A List pins from 2000-2016. Sold 90% off and did great on every sale. Kept an original MB and MM and of course, Tron LE.

The thing I’m thinking is will any of these games be desirable in the second hand market? Also, forget about making some money like in the past. I would think every model from base to super duper CE LE won’t get back 75% of their purchase prices.

If I do comeback, I’ll only be looking for the pins that have a clean history.

Furthermore, you guys really need to stop buying these inferior products since it gives manufacturers no desire to fix issues.

#264 81 days ago
Quoted from Saveleaningtower:

Wow.
I was big in the hobby - 30 ish A List pins from 2000-2016. Sold 90% off and did great on every sale. Kept an original MB and MM and of course, Tron LE.
The thing I’m thinking is will any of these games be desirable in the second hand market? Also, forget about making some money like in the past. I would think every model from base to super duper CE LE won’t get back 75% of their purchase prices.
If I do comeback, I’ll only be looking for the pins that have a clean history.
Furthermore, you guys really need to stop buying these inferior products since it gives manufacturers no desire to fix issues.

This is similar to my story. I was big into pinball in the mid 80s to early 2000s. I come back in after being out 15 years and see all these quality issues with pins. The clear issue was the kicker. A game of physics played with a steel ball crashing around can only be watered down so much as far as quality materials. Obviously manufacturers have ignored this and now will probably reap what they sow.

#265 81 days ago

From JP owners club...

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#266 81 days ago
Quoted from tbutler6:

From JP owners club...[quoted image]

Wow I thought I read a comment from Mirco that they haven't made playfields for Stern? Not sure how old that post is. Maybe the problem is the choice of clear being used between multiple playfield manufacturers?

#267 81 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Wow I thought I read a comment from Mirco that they haven't made playfields for Stern? Not sure how old that post is. Maybe the problem is the choice of clear being used between multiple playfield manufacturers?

I think they are all susceptible to this...

#268 81 days ago

the JP2s that is

15
#269 81 days ago

#bringbacksilkscreen

#270 81 days ago
Quoted from tpir:

There is washer/post pooling in the background of the second Munsters picture that you posted.
This sucks a lot.

Bad nib playfields have dampened my mood.

#271 81 days ago

The way the art moves with the clear makes it seem that the clear is binding to the art, but the digital printed art is not binding to the wood. The clear puckers, and when it moves it pulls the art with it.

It’s like the pickles in a grilled cheese.

My kids wanted a new JP but not happening.

#272 81 days ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

I think you may be right.
This picture isn't clear coming off.
It's like a bad playfield overlay that is coming off.
Makes sense that the ink is not adhering to playfield.
How much more does it cost to do good old screen printed?

Ask CGC how that good old silk screen process is going.

Silk screen is a labor of love with a beautiful end product but high rejection rate and production delays. I suspect parts for the machines and operators are hard to come by too. I can see how a manufacturer would be tempted to use an alternate process.

Unfortunately the alternative is looking like a massive post production headache that will take a good bite out of the cost savings and customer satisfaction.

#273 80 days ago

Not a thread I wanted to be a part of but I looked over our Star Trek Pro Vault HUO bought late January less than 800 plays and we have pooling or whatever you want to call it around several posts and chip at the entrance of the Vengeance.
This has had a Playfield Protector and Lexan washers since day one. Several washers under metal post have sunk deep into the clear also.
Not going to stop playing it and I doubt there is anything that can be done now 8 months after purchase.

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#274 80 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Wow I thought I read a comment from Mirco that they haven't made playfields for Stern? Not sure how old that post is. Maybe the problem is the choice of clear being used between multiple playfield manufacturers?

Quoted from Highclasspinball:

I have never run any stern playfields. Whoever thinks he knows better is lying.
Mirco

#275 80 days ago

Does anybody know or have seen issues with the WOZYBR editions???? Might tell a story about JJP CE's holding up better...

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#276 80 days ago
Quoted from kidchrisso:

Does anybody know or have seen issues with the WOZYBR editions???? Might tell a story about JJP CE's holding up better...

Did they actually sell one?

#277 80 days ago
Quoted from pipes:

Did they actually sell one?

believe it or not...but yes

#278 80 days ago
Quoted from thePLAyNone:

#bringbacksilkscreen

and #bringbackhardwoodplayfields

#279 80 days ago

I think it will be interesting to see how Stern addresses this in comparison to JJP., and how really widespread it is between the 2 ( may never really know that one)

Primarily the new games (JP2 for Stern, POTC and Wonka for JJP).

Ultimately, this will be a pricey issue to address properly....

#280 80 days ago

Just had a chance to play JP2 for the first time on location. Neat layout, ramp shots are really satisfying. Don't love the skillshot, and the overall theme integration is a bit lacking beyond generic-dinosaur-adventure.

Not sure how long it's been there, but it also has some unfortunate chipping in a number of locations. It was in a lineup of modern games and you could see similar failures on Wonka, Guardians, Munsters. The only newer game that didn't seem to have any playfield issues was Deadpool.

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#281 80 days ago

These games are shit

#282 80 days ago
Quoted from ctl723:

It was in a lineup of modern games and you could see similar failures on Wonka, Guardians, Munsters. The only newer game that didn't seem to have any playfield issues was Deadpool.

Just for time stamp purposes, I have a Deadpool with zero play field pooling issues.

#283 80 days ago

Is there a mark on playfield to tell which supplier to Stern made it?

#284 80 days ago

I just checked my 2013 JJP WOZ, no issue so if it wasn't an issue in 2013 what manufacturing process have they change 2018-19?

#285 80 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Is there a mark on playfield to tell which supplier to Stern made it?

They don't use multiple suppliers for playfields - all Stern playfields made in the one place.

#286 80 days ago
Quoted from Gemini2544:

I just checked my 2013 JJP WOZ, no issue so if it wasn't an issue in 2013 what manufacturing process have they change 2018-19?

I believe during that time period the major change for all manufacturers is the type of clear used in the US...... New regulations to cut down on VOC emissions, the clear they are using is now water-based.

#287 80 days ago
Quoted from Brk_oth:

I believe during that time period the major change for all manufacturers is the type of clear used in the US...... New regulations to cut down on VOC emissions, the clear they are using is now water-based.

Well if this is a water based clear then humidity must be playing a part of the problem. So the next question is " Is the problem worse in hot humid areas verses cold dry areas?".

#288 80 days ago
Quoted from Gemini2544:

I just checked my 2013 JJP WOZ, no issue so if it wasn't an issue in 2013 what manufacturing process have they change 2018-19?

A fair number of the early WOZ ECLE's had playfield issues, enough that decals were sent out to cover up the damage. So, I don't think we can point to 2013 as the end of "good playfields". Must have been somewhere before that date. Good for you that your WOZ doesn't have damage!

#289 80 days ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

C'mon everyone, we all know how capitalism works, don't we? ... ever increasing profit margins and ever increasing cut corners and exclusions all while the price rises. Nothing unexpected, they don't make 'em like they used to. Real quality wood, and taking the time and care required for superior quality product have gone to the wayside, so that things can continue on the essential growth curve! . Capitalism is just the best isn't it!
I made the choice never to buy another new in box stern after the horrendous dimpling that happened to my n.i.b. ACDC Prem VE. It warranted a replacement Decent playfield in my opinion, but I was brushed of by the stern dealer along with the likes of the man Steve himself who claimed it was "normal". Besides if the playfield was replaced it would just be the same s#it quality p/f to replace it. I sold the POS, I would get another as I think it's a great game, but I will buy an original run that has a playfield made with more care and decent hard wood. Also bonus get a propper backbox latch, backbox, and real lockdown reciever. Stern especially have taken Cheap and Nasty to the Next level from all that I've seen. They out do everyone else for cheap, by leagues. What operator is going to be keen to buy a new JP2 that does not eat the ball? . It's the main attraction and what everyone expects from JP... may as well keep the old one or buy a Premium... or was that the plan... less pro's?
Venting sequence complete!

So poor QC is a capitalism issue? Sounds like you are thinking socialism/communism would solve the problem after that rant.

#290 80 days ago
Quoted from Brk_oth:

They don't use multiple suppliers for playfields - all Stern playfields made in the one place.

Didn’t Sterns PF issues start when they lost Churchill cabinets (i.e. - Chicago Gaming) as their supplier?

You have to love pinball. How many industries were making higher quality products at half the price in the 90’s? Maybe not unique to pinball but I have a difficult time understanding how these manufacturers can’t get these problems straightened after all this time. No excuse given what they are charging for these games.

#291 80 days ago
Quoted from trk12fire:

Just for time stamp purposes, I have a Deadpool with zero play field pooling issues.

My Deadpool is also fine, no "pooling" at all. Looks like it has thinner clear then the rest of my newer Stern.
But it has ribbing/planking beyond everthing i've seen.

#292 80 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Clear is mixed to give a desired amount of flex verse rigidity. Basically it can be a range. Harder, stiffer clear will crack and chip instead of give. You can see how it’s hard to satisfy all applications with one “right” mix.
The fact the material is not just compressing.... but wrinkling as Eric so correctly put it is interesting IMO and what keeps me wondering how the different layers in play

Whatever Grade of clear is selected it will always require sufficient curing time. Before that time it will still flow, of course. Nobody knows how long was allowed for curing, or how well the "directions" were followed. My bet is it's all just due to rushing machines out too quickly...

#293 80 days ago
Quoted from Utesichiban:

So poor QC is a capitalism issue? Sounds like you are thinking socialism/communism would solve the problem after that rant.

Pmsl! Really??

"Lookout the commies are comming!" hardest I've laughed all week, thanks!

Well yeah! QC costs money! . Pretty much just looks like a more profits and greed/money issue. Nothing can grow forever - Newsflash.

Bigger they get the harder the fall, only takes time.

Pinball doesn't benefit from companies making cheaper and nastier pinball machines, and for ever more money/profit.

Capitalism is just the next dirty C word that's all, didn't you get the memo?

It's all good, globalisation will surely save us, and pinball! Lol

Stern LE are a AU$10k game Max! ... simple ... the rest is just Extra profit than previously (perpetual growth elephant).

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#294 80 days ago

I suspect this problem is on way more games than people realise unfortunately.

When the pooling is bad, it's very obvious.

But minor is only detected when you look very closely.

Don't have a good feeling for how these playfields are going to hold up over the years.

Sadly, this has 'cured' my pinball addiction of wanting the new, shiny.

#295 80 days ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

I suspect this problem is on way more games than people realise unfortunately.
When the pooling is bad, it's very obvious.
But minor is only detected when you look very closely.
Don't have a good feeling for how these playfields are going to hold up over the years.
Sadly, this has 'cured' my pinball addiction of wanting the new, shiny.

This has stopped me from a nib purchase this fall. Just building a game room too. But it’s money saved now. Maybe look for an older game now.

#296 80 days ago
Quoted from Brk_oth:

I believe during that time period the major change for all manufacturers is the type of clear used in the US...... New regulations to cut down on VOC emissions, the clear they are using is now water-based.

Water Based clear over solvent based ink = NOT GOOD

#297 80 days ago
Quoted from libtech:

they obviously know about it due to the washers, the question is will they take care of affected buyers, or just say its normal like ghosting?
Damn, should a guy cancel and wait...

Yes, unless you like doing this:

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#298 80 days ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Sadly, this has 'cured' my pinball addiction of wanting the new, shiny.

Same here brother..i wouldn't buy a game right now if i had a million dollars sitting in the bank. Its not worth the headache.

#299 80 days ago
Quoted from Brk_oth:

They don't use multiple suppliers for playfields - all Stern playfields made in the one place.

This absolutely untrue. They cut all playfields in house then use multiple places to clear and print them, so that if something happens to one of their suppliers they do not experience big time delays.

#300 80 days ago

Has Hitler weighed in on this? I can't imagine he's too happy about it.

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