(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

3 months ago



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There are 3272 posts in this topic. You are on page 58 of 66.
#2851 37 days ago

Wow, American seems to be the only manufacturer brave enough to post in this thread. Good for them! And Jersey Jack at least responded in a stream to the recent issues. Stern looking like either incompetents or scam artists right about now.

#2852 37 days ago
Quoted from snaroff:

I'm told this has been fixed in more recent builds.

yes, as the posts above mention... the hardware was changed when they did the first run of LEs to have a longer stud and nut on it now.

#2853 37 days ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

Wow, American seems to be the only manufacturer brave enough to post in this thread. Good for them! And Jersey Jack at least responded in a stream to the recent issues. Stern looking like either incompetents or scam artists right about now.

From my perspective, it's sloppiness/incompetence caused by time-to-market pressures. In the past, we've dealt with incomplete software. Now, we have to deal with incomplete/untested hardware. If they would have put a couple hundred plays on an early build BEFORE starting to build for customers, this would have been solved prior to customer shipments. Just unacceptable...feel badly for folks that have to deal with this kind of BS. Reminds me of my DILE debacle 1 year ago.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dialed-in-owners-and-fans-club/page/33#post-4080509

#2854 37 days ago
Quoted from snaroff:

I've owned 3 Trons...all with 4 posts that get hammered. Thousands of play...no damage. Hitting a post shouldn't cause PF damage...! My LOTR has over 10k plays with posts that get hammered and 0 damage.
Based on the little I know, I would bet the post isn't secured well. As the post loosens and gets hammered, it chips away @ the PF. One of the posts on my KISS would loosen after 50 plays or so. Added a lock washer and hasn't loosened since.

I think my previous post was misunderstood. (Maybe my post wasn't secured well )

Sure-I agree in theory the playfield *should not* get damaged.

By your own admission you had a post on a game loosen in 50 plays. Also you agree as a loose post gets hammered it chips at the playfield.

You are very meticulous with your games, so you would pay attention more. Further you stated you had to add a lock washer that wasn't there. Imagine if that loose post were on a route game with nobody paying attention like you do.

So to me, it seems very plausible that at a location with a staff not as diligent and caring as you and the other collectors here could have a post loosen and cause the damage I observed.

Again, I'm not saying anyone should accept the playfield issues, I am just simply saying that I am not surprised that in *that* particular post location that I saw damage.

I'll stop there-nothing more that I can add without repeating myself.

#2855 37 days ago
Quoted from pinballcorpse:

I think my previous post was misunderstood. (Maybe my post wasn't secured well )
Sure-I agree in theory the playfield *should not* get damaged.
By your own admission you had a post on a game loosen in 50 plays. Also you agree as a loose post gets hammered it chips at the playfield.
You are very meticulous with your games, so you would pay attention more. Further you stated you had to add a lock washer that wasn't there. Imagine if that loose post were on a route game with nobody paying attention like you do.
So to me, it seems very plausible that at a location with a staff not as diligent and caring as you and the other collectors here could have a post loosen and cause the damage I observed.
Again, I'm not saying anyone should accept the playfield issues, I am just simply saying that I am not surprised that in *that* particular post location that I saw damage.
I'll stop there-nothing more that I can add without repeating myself.

Just to be clear, I'm not surprised either (given the numerous missteps designing/manufacturing the newer games).

Apparently, time-to-market is causing testing to be thrown out the door. Really sloppy to not anticipate this post needed to be secured properly given it's location! C'mon. Aesthetics aside, I'd imagine this post would be a nightmare to maintain on location where the game is getting played 500 times a week! (like in some of the LA arcades).

-4
#2856 37 days ago
Quoted from BarryJ:

Inserts falling out?
Think there would have been a service request for "inserts falling out"

I assume there was. Game was at geeks mania in Madison. I think the distributor had to get involved to get it sorted out.

Honestly I dont know/remember the details, but that was one of the worse PF issues I have seen of all the things that have plagued many of the manufactures.
I hope you really are not trying to act like it did not happen...

#2857 37 days ago
Quoted from Syco54645:

This sucks, we want to order an Elvira in the spring but with the issues stern is having again do not think it is worth the gamble...

I feel the same way!
I’d love to complete the Elvira Trilogy and have all 3 next to each other but
plan on watching from the sidelines until fall of next year to see if anything changes....
if not I’ll probably have to wait a couple/few years and buy one used from someone who was willing to gamble.

#2858 36 days ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

Wow, American seems to be the only manufacturer brave enough to post in this thread. Good for them! And Jersey Jack at least responded in a stream to the recent issues. Stern looking like either incompetents or scam artists right about now.

If you read the entire thread, yea I now it's long... Stern has replaced playfields for a few customers with issues on a case by case basis.

I wouldn't expect them to post here, since they never post to pinside, apart from Zombi Yeti.

14
#2859 36 days ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I assume there was. Game was at geeks mania in Madison. I think the distributor had to get involved to get it sorted out.
Honestly I dont know/remember the details, but that was one of the worse PF issues I have seen of all the things that have plagued many of the manufactures.
I hope you really are not trying to act like it did not happen...

Geeks Mania received the first ever pinball machine off our line. I am not sure what happened before I started at American Pinball... But I am in possession of a Geeks Mania playfield (which was changed out in 2018), the playfield clearly shows inserts in tact.

Not saying there wasn't problems with their game.. The first machine off the line of a brand new pinball company probably shouldn't be the standard.

We go out of our way to make sure everyone that has a problem, is addressed, and an outcome acceptable to all is reached. Sure there are problems that slip between the cracks for whatever reason... But in the end, given a chance, we will do whatever we can to correct a problem.

#2860 36 days ago
Quoted from BarryJ:

Geeks Mania received the first ever pinball machine off our line. I am not sure what happened before I started at American Pinball... But I am in possession of a Geeks Mania playfield (which was changed out in 2018), the playfield clearly shows inserts in tact.
Not saying there wasn't problems with their game.. The first machine off the line of a brand new pinball company probably shouldn't be the standard.
We go out of our way to make sure everyone that has a problem, is addressed, and an outcome acceptable to all is reached. Sure there are problems that slip between the cracks for whatever reason... But in the end, given a chance, we will do whatever we can to correct a problem.

glad to hear it got sorted out for them.

#2861 36 days ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

No worries mate! ... just unbox it, pull the rubbers and loosen all the posts then pack it up again. .... Have the unboxing in 12 months time when it should have been released! (just remember to firmly, but not too firmly, tighten all the posts back down again Lol)

30 days is usually plenty for getting a good quality clear.

#2862 36 days ago

So Stern finally replied. They said they are willing to send me an unpopulated Playfield.

#2863 36 days ago
Quoted from Talon2000:

So Stern finally replied. They said they are willing to send me an unpopulated Playfield.

Is the playfield for Iron Maiden?
Do you know if they done any changes to fix the problem, maybe no art under the posts like they did on JP?

15
#2864 36 days ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I assume there was. Game was at geeks mania in Madison. I think the distributor had to get involved to get it sorted out.
Honestly I dont know/remember the details, but that was one of the worse PF issues I have seen of all the things that have plagued many of the manufactures.
I hope you really are not trying to act like it did not happen...

The play field at Geeks Mania never had these issues. The first playfield had a major problem with the theater curtain main connection broke and was turning into a huge repair and American ended up replacing the play field to look at it and try to fix it in further machines. Other then minor spider cracks in 2 arrow inserts and the usual coil problems no other play field problems. The only thing we were having continued problems with was the PD-16 node boards kept on frying transistors but I do believe they fixed this in new updates.

#2865 36 days ago
Quoted from Returner:

Is the playfield for Iron Maiden?
Do you know if they done any changes to fix the problem, maybe no art under the posts like they did on JP?

Yes for maiden.

I highly doubt it, probably left over stock, or seconds

32
#2866 36 days ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

glad to hear it got sorted out for them.

Maybe you should go back and update your wildly inaccurate stories with corrections.

#2867 36 days ago
Quoted from BarryJ:

Geeks Mania received the first ever pinball machine off our line. I am not sure what happened before I started at American Pinball... But I am in possession of a Geeks Mania playfield (which was changed out in 2018), the playfield clearly shows inserts in tact.
Not saying there wasn't problems with their game.. The first machine off the line of a brand new pinball company probably shouldn't be the standard.
We go out of our way to make sure everyone that has a problem, is addressed, and an outcome acceptable to all is reached. Sure there are problems that slip between the cracks for whatever reason... But in the end, given a chance, we will do whatever we can to correct a problem.

Barry has always been highly responsive, and helped me out with whatever my issues were. Always reliable, knowledgable, and an overall good dude! Like all the folks I've dealt with from API, Josh and Nirmal as well! Ferret seems cool on the boards also.

#2868 36 days ago
Quoted from wesman:

Barry has always been highly responsive, and helped me out with whatever my issues were. Always reliable, knowledgable, and an overall good dude! Like all the folks I've dealt with from API, Josh and Nirmal as well! Ferret seems cool on the boards also.

and I hear that Dan guy is pretty cool as well!

14
#2869 36 days ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

Wow, American seems to be the only manufacturer brave enough to post in this thread. Good for them! And Jersey Jack at least responded in a stream to the recent issues. Stern looking like either incompetents or scam artists right about now.

Stern's response continues to be...
download (1) (resized).jpg

#2870 36 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Maybe you should go back and update your wildly inaccurate stories with corrections.

That has to be the first time that he ever lied in a post for dramatization.

He's slipping as he forgot to write at least one word in his fable using all CAPITAL letters to get better SHOCK VALUE.

-4
#2871 36 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Maybe you should go back and update your wildly inaccurate stories with corrections.

you likely understand that what a company is going to say here publicly about a manufacturer that ended up resolving a problem and the reality of seeing and playing a game myself which had major playfield issues are two very different realities. You will never trust me but I dont really care to be honest.

Wish I had taken pictures. The game was a wreck. I went over 3 times specifically to play the game and evaluate it for purchase. I spoke with one of their employees about the issues and got their honest opinion on it at that time. Needless to say it convinced me to wait/not buy. I also heard the full story from the distributor of that game, which further helped me make the decision at that time.

I think the bigger explanation of issues and importance is that it was a 1st run and has been resolved. That is what important and glad to see it was resolved for the customer.

That however does not change the reality that the game/pf had major flaws.

Pretty sure the “pill inserts” in the chain had cracked out. Tech told me he had to reglue them and arrow inserts were showing same issues. I remember playing and ball trajectory changing as it rolled over the chain inserts cause they had dropped.
At that time they were understandably not happy with the situation. Again, glad they got a replacement pf, and were all taken care of.

#2872 36 days ago
Quoted from Returner:Is the playfield for Iron Maiden?
Do you know if they done any changes to fix the problem, maybe no art under the posts like they did on JP?
Quoted from Talon2000:

Yes for maiden.
I highly doubt it, probably left over stock, or seconds

New production playfield, not left over or seconds. Art pulled back from every single hole. Nice hard clear that appears thinner and less glossy.

#2873 36 days ago
Quoted from Whysnow:you likely understand that what a company is going to say here publicly about a manufacturer that ended up resolving a problem and the reality of seeing and playing a game myself which had major playfield issues are two very different realities. You will never trust me but I dont really care to be honest.
Wish I had taken pictures. The game was a wreck. I went over 3 times specifically to play the game and evaluate it for purchase. I spoke with one of their employees about the issues and got their honest opinion on it at that time. Needless to say it convinced me to wait/not buy. I also heard the full story from the distributor of that game, which further helped me make the decision at that time.
I think the bigger explanation of issues and importance is that it was a 1st run and has been resolved. That is what important and glad to see it was resolved for the customer.
That however does not change the reality that the game/pf had major flaws.
Quoted from Geeks_Mania:

The play field at Geeks Mania never had these issues. The first playfield had a major problem with the theater curtain main connection broke and was turning into a huge repair and American ended up replacing the play field to look at it and try to fix it in further machines. Other then minor spider cracks in 2 arrow inserts and the usual coil problems no other play field problems. The only thing we were having continued problems with was the PD-16 node boards kept on frying transistors but I do believe they fixed this in new updates.

#2874 36 days ago
Quoted from Talon2000:

So Stern finally replied. They said they are willing to send me an unpopulated Playfield.

Have you ever performed a playfield swap?

10
#2875 36 days ago
Quoted from Talon2000:

So Stern finally replied. They said they are willing to send me an unpopulated Playfield.

What happened to sending out populated PFs? That is what Stern did before with similar issues. Stern has watered down just about every part of a pinball machine and now they water down their PF replacement policy. I wouldn’t give them my money. No way.

#2876 36 days ago
Quoted from CubeSnake:

Have you ever performed a playfield swap?

On a newer machine a daunting task I'd imagine.

#2877 36 days ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

On a newer machine a daunting task I'd image.

Makes pins predominantly aimed at home users.

Offers solution to a manufacturing defect that only experienced (or ambitious) techs should attempt.

PF replacement is a little bit beyond changing bulbs etc.

#2878 36 days ago
Quoted from CubeSnake:

Have you ever performed a playfield swap?

Not on a new stern.

#2879 36 days ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

On a newer machine a daunting task I'd imagine.

It is easier than doing an old machine. Much less wires and less boards.

#2880 36 days ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

What happened to sending out populated PFs? That is what Stern did before with similar issues. Stern has watered down just about every part of a pinball machine and now they water down their PF replacement policy. I wouldn’t give them my money. No way.

Was told they are no longer doing that.

#2881 36 days ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

What happened to sending out populated PFs? That is what Stern did before with similar issues. Stern has watered down just about every part of a pinball machine and now they water down their PF replacement policy. I wouldn’t give them my money. No way.

I think Jersey Jack set the precedent and so Stern decided to follow suit.

#2882 36 days ago
Quoted from Talon2000:

Was told they are no longer doing that.

Haha well f$ck stern then. Wow. Just saved me major money in the future.

#2883 36 days ago
Quoted from Talon2000:

Was told they are no longer doing that.

I was going to say that they will probably still do it but yours didn't meet the amount of damage they require. Sounds nicer (I guess?) just to tell the upset customer they no longer offer that option.

Then I looked back at your pics. Two nice patches of bare wood on a new machine. Sure looked suitably ugly and damaged to me. Yikes. I guess the customer is expected to take it on the chin with these cases.

#2884 36 days ago
Quoted from Talon2000:

Not on a new stern.

A playfield swap on a newer Stern should actually be quite a bit easier than on a classic game. I'm amazed at how clean and uncluttered the bottom of the playfield on my Stern JP looks compared to my games from the 90's.

For me anyway, the most laborious part of a playfield swap is cleaning everything and rebuilding mechs, which you obviously don't need to do on a brand new game.

#2885 36 days ago
Quoted from floyd1977:

A playfield swap on a newer Stern should actually be quite a bit easier than on a classic game. I'm amazed at how clean and uncluttered the bottom of the playfield on my Stern JP looks compared to my games from the 90's.
For me anyway, the most laborious part of a playfield swap is cleaning everything and rebuilding mechs, which you obviously don't need to do on a brand new game.

You are still looking at easily 20 hours of work. I make $200/hr, so is Stern going to pay me $4000 for me to swap my playfield?

#2886 36 days ago
Quoted from WackyBrakke:

You are still looking at easily 20 hours of work. I make $200/hr, so is Stern going to pay me $4000 for me to swap my playfield?

Stern will pay you. They cut me a check for doing a swap.

#2887 36 days ago
Quoted from WackyBrakke:

You are still looking at easily 20 hours of work. I make $200/hr, so is Stern going to pay me $4000 for me to swap my playfield?

Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

Stern will pay you. They cut me a check for doing a swap.

That's shocking. I'm sure the check wasn't close to 4k. I'd guess "swap comp" would be in the $500-$1000 range...which is certainly better than nothing (and somewhat fair considering many situations). The waste associated with populated PF swaps is huge, since the old PF parts aren't re-useable.

#2888 36 days ago
Quoted from snaroff:

That's shocking. I'm sure the check wasn't close to 4k. I'd guess "swap comp" would be in the $500-$1000 range...which is certainly better than nothing (and somewhat fair considering many situations). The waste associated with populated PF swaps is huge, since the old PF parts aren't re-useable.

I was being sarcastic.

#2889 36 days ago
Quoted from CubeSnake:

Have you ever performed a playfield swap?

It's not about doing a playfield swap. It's about having a NOS playfield to "throw in" on a future sale of the game if someone complains about the playfield in the game that's being sold.

Nobody really cares about these playfields and minor imperfections most people can't or won't notice, it's all about resale. Nobody is swapping their playfields, they are just sitting on the NOS ones they get from Stern. Plus, they "got something outta Stern" which also provides some peace of mind.

#2890 36 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

It's not about doing a playfield swap. It's about having a NOS playfield to "throw in" on a future sale of the game if someone complains about the playfield in the game that's being sold.
Nobody really cares about these playfields and minor imperfections most people can't or won't notice, it's all about resale. Nobody is swapping their playfields, they are just sitting on the NOS ones they get from Stern. Plus, they "got something outta Stern" which also provides some peace of mind.

Makes sense...definitely more about peace of mind and recognition of the mishap. When I've had issues, I've been offered an unpopulated PF or topper. In one instance, took the topper since it was more useful. Taking a PF that will never actually be used didn't make sense to me. Guess it depends on the situation.

Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

I was being sarcastic.

Makes MUCH more sense

#2891 36 days ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

Stern has watered down just about every part of a pinball machine and now they water down their PF replacement policy.

There was no playfield policy to “water down”. It was always/is a case by case decision. One distributor told me they are more apt to replace a playfield on an LE vs Pro or Premium, but that’s certainly not a policy.

#2892 36 days ago
Quoted from WackyBrakke:

You are still looking at easily 20 hours of work. I make $200/hr, so is Stern going to pay me $4000 for me to swap my playfield?

And as I always say, my personal time is worth double of what I make in salary.

#2893 36 days ago
Quoted from snaroff:

That's shocking. I'm sure the check wasn't close to 4k. I'd guess "swap comp" would be in the $500-$1000 range...which is certainly better than nothing (and somewhat fair considering many situations). The waste associated with populated PF swaps is huge, since the old PF parts aren't re-useable.

Well the "old" PF parts are actually reusable. That's why they have you send back your populated PF. The mechs, etc are usually in great shape and are ready to go back in the parts bin. These parts aren't like used condoms. Not yet anyways

11
#2894 36 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

It's not about doing a playfield swap. It's about having a NOS playfield to "throw in" on a future sale of the game if someone complains about the playfield in the game that's being sold.
Nobody really cares about these playfields and minor imperfections most people can't or won't notice, it's all about resale. Nobody is swapping their playfields, they are just sitting on the NOS ones they get from Stern. Plus, they "got something outta Stern" which also provides some peace of mind.

I always write this too but people *do* care... to some degree. After dropping 7k you don't want to to see two bare wood patches on your new purchase. Especially if none of your 20 years old machines show any bare wood.

I agree most don't get swapped though... it's a good salve for the unhappy customer.

Here's one of the guys two PF spots...

IM1 (resized).jpg
#2895 36 days ago
Quoted from Manic:

Well the "old" PF parts are actually reusable. That's why they have you send back your populated PF. The mechs, etc are usually in great shape and are ready to go back in the parts bin. These parts aren't like used condoms. Not yet anyways

In theory. In practice, old populated PF's likely get thrown around & damaged during the trip back to Stern. Years ago, I sent back an old AC/DC populated PF and the "packaging" was primitive/adhoc...definitely wouldn't want the plastic ramps from someone's "old" PF! I agree many mechs are more likely to make the trip back in good shape.

Quoted from Manic:

I always write this too but people *do* care... to some degree. After dropping 7k you don't want to to see two bare wood patches on your new purchase. Especially if none of your 20 years old machines show any bare wood.
I agree most don't get swapped though... it's a good salve for the unhappy customer.
Here's one of the guys two PF spots...[quoted image]

Man, that PF damage is a bummer. Is this a home-use game?

#2896 36 days ago
Quoted from MrBally:

And as I always say, my personal time is worth double of what I make in salary.

How much is it worth if you don’t have a salary?

#2897 36 days ago
Quoted from jfh:

How much is it worth if you don’t have a salary?

Double of what your last job's pay rate was adjusted for inflation plus double any monthly defined benefit income divided by 176. Social Security, pensions. Nothing for dividends, interest, Capital gains or annuity income.

#2898 36 days ago
Quoted from jfh:

How much is it worth if you don’t have a salary?

$7.50 an hour

#2899 36 days ago
Quoted from Talon2000:

Yes for maiden.
I highly doubt it, probably left over stock, or seconds

I just recently received a replacement playfield for my Iron Maiden and can confirm it is exactly the same original design. It has art under the posts just like the original. The only difference depending on the age of your machine will be the updated Mylar under the back target. The newer playfields have a heavy silver material. The old ones were regular Mylar.

#2900 36 days ago
Quoted from Raegor:

I think Jersey Jack set the precedent and so Stern decided to follow suit.

No I would say Stern actually sent precedent by giving out populated PF’s in the past well before Jersey Jack ever sent out anything. Stern just used what Jersey Jack did recently to stop giving populated PF’s. What Stern is now saying to customers is “we used to do the right thing but because another company chose to do the wrong thing we will just do that now”. Unreal folks.

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