Ok, I have a theory on this clearcoat issue ( hold your punches), a few years ago I repaired the sanctum area on my shadow. I had read a few instructional posts and went at it, I did the repair per all expert advice, I then clearcoated with a spray can of Krylon or something similar I bought from The Home Depot...it took only about 20 plays or so for the area above the magnet to give in a bit and form a slight divot, which kept the ball from rolling into the sanctum. Another Pinsider did the same repair as me (used my instructions) but used automotive clearcoat and he didn't have any issues hundreds of plays later. So my theory is that someone is using cheap clearcoat that is not in the same league as the automotive clear such as Spray Max 2k stuff. This is just my hunch, I have no proof. I don't think the environmental reformulation has anything to do with that. I just think it's lower grade stuff.

It's not lying, it's just extremely accurate recording of every possible second. I used to work on a time tracking app for lawyers called Carpe Diem a long time ago.

The guitar explanation someone gave sounds the most plausible/similar to me.

Then if it was every second, how could it be a second past 55 when he died?

http://thatsthejoke.com

Finding a lawyer you can trust, especially a litigator, is HUGE. It's great that you have a lawyer friend to count on who won't screw you over with hourly billing.

Divorce is great for lawyers, plaintiff and defense, and an easy area for young lawyers to get involved in. So is criminal law. Neither of which I'd ever do for obvious reasons.

I don't do "billable hours" since my CPA days at Ernst & Young in the 80's when i was forced to do it. Big accounting firm, as bad as lawyers on the billing sheets.

My clients love me , i save them money, help game plan their lives from an integrated legal, tax and financial standpoint and give them "peace of mind" .

The older you get you sweat the small stuff less and less. Life is WAY too short.

so are you a lawyer or accountant??

Hence, my saying that lawyers are lying and cheating clients, because they are billing more than 1 second at a time. In fact, it would be 1.49 seconds billed (82 years in time sheets), for every real second(55 years old). And its a joke to them.

Ditto...life is short. Seen way to many friends of a young age pass away.

Yes, the other post talks about thinner coats vs heavy coats which could be also be an issue but there are some posts on the automotive spray 2k thread showing them putting on a thick coat and still getting good results. This issue may very well be a multifaceted one. Where clear quality, cure time and digital printing may all be culpable.

I'm actually both and a registered investment adviser RIA under the SEC and fiduciary duty rule. That's how i make my living, charging a fixed fee to manage assets as a financial adviser, lower than most every adviser i might add, while integrating estate planning and tax advice for my clients at no additional cost. I have about $350 million of assets under mgt., 1200 accounts or so with TD Ameritrade as custodian.

And i love what i do in helping people. I doubt i'll ever really retire from doing that OR the pinball hobby!

Back to discussing PF issues and i hope JJP and Stern finally have this shit figured out.

I know one thing for sure - I sure wouldn’t like to get billed Icemans Pinside hours ...

rd

I'm liking the sound of Stern's Kryptonite playfield coating, harder than a diamond and you will never need mylar.

So the trick is in the details here. What is meant by cheap? Usually, "cheap" refers to using a lacquer with less solids and more solvent. The solvent is cheaper. Quart to quart, a cheap lacquer will produce thinner finishes. Which sometimes is desired. Higher solid lacquers are generally more costly.

But the real story is in the formulation and application process.

Regarding formulation, a high grade instrument laquer will generally contain a larger amount of plasticizers. These small molecules surround the long polymer chains and prevent them from wrapping into each other to form crystalities that can make the surface brittle. Usually, having a subpar formula isn't really a cheap thing so much as it is the wrong formula. For example, one could easily use an expensive formula that is so hard, it will produce spider web cracking over time. This isn't necessarily cheap, just wrong!

The last real factor is in the category of application (which also includes prep and cure). For example, if a guitar shop wouldn't even buff out a guitar in less than 10 days because the finish is still too soft, it makes me wonder if anyone is bolting parts to a PF within that time. And are suppliers correctly communicating the hold times they used so the assembly people can time it right? And even if they are, the wrong spray schedule could trap solvents and produce a host of other issues that change cure times. I honestly don't think it's an issue of Stern being cheap with the paint. I think it's more in the category of a costly manufacturing issue that they would like to resolve.

Bottom line for me is that even with cheap laquers and formulas that could stand to be tweaked, movement in a clear coat after application, lifting, peeling... I'd look to my application/cure process first. It's almost definitional... If it's still moving and hardening it's not really cured yet because that's all "cured" really means: it's stopped moving and has hardened up.

Like I said before, I don't know PFs. But on a guitar, if I sprayed some heavy coats, and let the surface tack up in a few days, I could install a guitar tuner over the gloss. It'd look great. Over the next 2 weeks, the soft clear would migrate (creep) out around that guitar tuner and puddle. It would get harder too as it continued to cure, but trapped solvents would soften the paint under it. The soft clear might stick to the underside of the guitar tuner too. As a string put tension around the post, it would slightly angle it up and away from the headstock surface opposite the string. The laquer, stuck to the bottom of the tuner, would lift in a moon shape along with the post it was attached to and likely chip where the thicker part of the puddle met the thinner part of the lacquer. On the other side, the post would move slightly into the bubble where the lacquer creeped. That bubble, now hardened, would likely crack or chip away. I know this because I've done it. On a banjo. Not a PF. So maybe that's different.

And just for transparency, I am just a hobbiest. I defer to the experts in this field.

Your theory seems pretty well thought out to me hawkmoon77

This scene from Ghostbusters 2 comes to mind...

9CD37D0F-1A9B-4C22-8FFD-18FA3D9A5C12 (resized).jpeg

A toddler can swap a new playfield if you can get them to pay attention. It's simply unscrewing and screwing in parts. On a new game the GI isn't stapled to the playfield, parts are not being rebuild or repaired. it's tedious but easy. To say it's beyond any normal person is silly. Sure lots of people are too lazy to do it, but it takes exactly zero special talent to swap a modern playfield.

Wow!! Now that's customer service!!! Is your distributor local to you?

He is local. The store is owned by a great guy and a long time pinball fan. It's called Little Shop of Games.

I assemble pinball machines every day and I can tell you without guidance from an experienced person and a lot of documentation almost no one could do an unpopulated playfield swap. Populated is just a few connectors and most of us could handle that.

No not swapping a populated playfield. Obviously that is not that hard. I was discussing replacing everything from a bare playfield. I thought that was clear. That is what JJ is sending out right now. So you would have to rebuild the entire pin. Not an easy task.

Marshall and Curly are both top notch guys!

Your experience is in tax and estate planning? So you have zero experience in commercial litigation is that correct? I have 25 years experience in commercial litigation. I don’t do taxes though. And you are criticizing my opinion in areas I practice in and you do not without providing any basis for your position? Not convincing. I never said anything about damages either, what I said was if you sued under the UCC and had properly rejected or revoked acceptance for a chipping or blistering playfield you have an extremely high likelihood of winning the lawsuit and getting your money back or a new pin. I thought I was very clear about that. That’s all I said in addition to plastering the playfield so that it’s smooth again is not repairing a defective $10,000 machine sufficient to conform to the contract. As I said the ball merely rolling around the pin and scoring is not going to be enough to establish the goods conform to the contract. That will be $500 please.

Truth!! I've done 3 title unpopulated over the years and will not do them unless I have a duplicate machine in the same vicinity.

GTFO of here with that nonsense. A bare playfield swap includes WAY more than that. Installing t-nuts, pre-drilling for bracket installs, mylar application, to name a few. It's not for the faint of heart. Jeez.

-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107

I'll apply some logic (that I don't agree with) from the big lebowski thread.. if we all push the issue and ask for replacement playfields, JJP will go bankrupt and wont be able to make any more games!

It's B.S. that distributors are claiming new LE's have no more playfield issues, but it sounds like those of us who bought sooner are stuck with puddles of clear and chipping playfields.

Following the JPLE thread, some games are fine, others having non clear coat related issues, haven’t heard any pooling lately but the sample size is literally 4 or 5 I think. I’d give it awhile myself.

If we're only talking about one insert, another option is to use some orange transparent film between the LED and the insert. Some colors work better than others. I turned some clear inserts on my TWD red for the walker inserts (to kill walkers). I think I may have used blue too for the Well Walker inserts.

These playfields aren't ready to just start slamming parts on. You have to remove clear, you have to drill, you have to T-nut. And talent is required to not chip or crack the clear coat during the removal process. You obviously never had to deal with swapping in a Mirco playfield before. Sorry if this comes across harsh, but its comments like yours that can potentially give people false confidence and when they get into the real world reality sets in. They are in over their heads. It's not brain surgery, but not everyone has the aptitude for it.

A PF coming from the manufacturer will be at a minimum dimpled. It's not exactly rocket science to drill a hole, by the way the factory does not they use the screw to make the hole. Applying mylar, oh the horror of, umm, placing a clear sticker. T nuts would be the trickiest item and that involves pressing in, pulling through, or hammering in, again not things beyond any functional adult. Remember you'll have a complete game sitting there when you do it. It's not like you send them your poppers field first then they send you a blank field and unassembled parts. I've done enough swaps, a straight swap is simply stripping the top and labeling the parts, lift the field drop out any switches/mechs that come through the top, taking out the field and putting it face down, unscrew everything. Place new of face down next to the old one literally slide the whole backside over, re screw in the bottom side put game in cab, put switches/mechs back through field, out for down rescrew topside. The swap is done. At that point test switches, make adjustments on the maybe 2 that don't register reliably. It's physically simple, but tedious.

You think the factory is removing the clear, you think a tech hired by the factory would? Chipping and cracking during the removal, in this case who cares, you're swapping out you "terribly damaged" play field. That's why you have a new one the old one is just terrible, remember? Oh it's not terrible, it's something your gonna resell, then you didn't really need a new one on the first place.

Jack Guarnieri doesn't agree with you.

-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107

When will they start using it ?

it will stop when they realise there is no one to bill the hours to!

Why don't you lead the charges for everybody here that has that issue with Stern then and see how it turns out?

I've done plenty of pro bono work for my fellow pinsiders, always happy to help!

You said, "the lawsuit was a guaranteed win", now its "high likelihood", getting more realistic but i KNOW you would never tell a prospective client paying you an hourly fee what you just said publicly here, as a 25 yr lawyer.

Let's have you try out a test case and see what happens? Prove it to me

You keep ignoring adequately "curing the defect" under the law, which Stern has done and can easily do, despite not solving the issue adequately in the court of public opinion, PINSIDE

A good lawyer understands both sides of the issue and knows when they have the facts on their side to argue. Legally, it's "highly UNLIKELY" you would win a lawsuit against Stern. And every case is different, you keep making these broad statements that just don't apply to each case. That's why i don't need 25 years experience in commercial litigation on something this ridiculous.

Yet again, its a moot point because neither you nor any other lawyer would take the case Carry on Rick 5 rounds and now its 5-0

GamerRick's been on Pinside for 1 year and has 6 really nice pins, while iceman has been on Pinside 8 years and has 19 great pins.
Based on that I'd have to side with iceman. (Although if Rick adds six NIB pins every year he could even things up pretty quick.)

If you want a PERFECT GAME, get it restored by HEP or the like.

As i gaze amazingly and my gorgeous restored WH20 and near perfection, its just not reasonable to expect Stern, a mass produced game, 10K+ per year to be able to reach the same quality without costing MUCH more. Get it?

I don’t think most people expect a “perfect” machine.

They just want to have a machine that doesn’t shit itself a few weeks after they paid $7,000 bucks for it and then becomes a huge pain in the ass.

rd

Nobody expects perfection + its subjective....what they do expect is that a $9K machine doesn't start falling apart in first 6 months. My real issue is how Stern handles these issues....not responding for weeks/months on these issues is really bad customer service, and frankly arrogance. At some point it will bite them in the ass

No. You are wrong. Get it?

Repeatedly making specious, lawyerly sounding arguments doesn’t make people dropping $8k on a peeling playfield feel any better.

Define “shit itself” RD

Because I buy a lot of Nib games and my pins have never “shit themselves”

So I do t want one of those either

But if you think pooling, minor ghosting is “shitting itself” then good luck as a distributor RD

What we all want is different from the legal issues and how defects are cured, like it or not

If Stern doesn’t do a good job on that front then they will go out business.

Yet I still see them selling out games like hot cakes one after another title. Those are the facts

If you want to argue about SHIT customer service and arrogant attitudes from Stern and JJP you aren’t getting any push back from me.

When you say things like “shit itself” or “falling apart after 90 days” it doesn’t help and is just NOT reality

Deal with facts and then make a decision on whether or not to buy another game in the future. No one is holding a gun to anyone’s head

Iceman. I'm a trust officer in South Dakota. Have any clients looking to set up a SD situs trust and need a corporate trustee? I specialize in directed trusts at my bank

At times I feel like my Wife has a gun at the ready when I approach her about buying another machine.

I’m sure your a good man Iceman, and this has never been personal, but the more you talk the less like a lawyer you sound. And for an attorney, you’re not very adept at accurately reading my prior posts. At no time did I ever state that I guaranteed a lawsuit would be successful. I agree no attorney should make grandiose claims like that and if you can go back and read carefully you’ll see that I never did that. What I stated was if the manufacturers don’t address this issue properly I can virtually guarantee at some point a class action lawsuit will be filed. That was just an opinion about the likelihood of a lawsuit and it was based on the fact that there’s always some money grubbing attorney out there looking to file a class action lawsuit, because as has been discussed several times, the attorney gets paid 1/3 of the recovery and so usually makes a good amount of money on this type of case whereas the actual plaintiffs that suffered damages gets cents on the dollar. Perhaps you should take a few minutes and go back and read my comments before you so grandiosely attack them and not even get them correct. In my humble opinion, one does not give an expert opinion on something they’re not an expert on. Maybe you should stick to taxes.

Regardless, I was merely answering a question and correcting two incorrect statements about the law since this seems so important to people. You are the one that insisted I don’t know what I am talking about and keeps arguing about it, albeit without properly supporting your position. And if you are an attorney, you should be well aware that supporting your legal argument with authority is basic lawyering 101. It appears that your opinion is based on your commercial law course you took as a second year law student 27 years ago. Just stating that you think that something being fixed in your personal view will be satisfactory isn’t the criteria that the court would look at.

I've purchased many NIB games, but due to the FACTS (shitty customer service) have stopped purchasing anything new from JJP or Stern. I'm perfectly happy buying on the secondary market or waiting for CGC to release their next game.

It’s all good Rick, def not personal. I’d love to have a drink or two at a show and argue the merits of legal issues and more importantly play some pinball in the future!

There will NEVER be a UCC case brought against Stern for anything I’ve seen that they haven’t corrected, nor any class action, EVER

As you hopefully hang in the pinball hobby for many more years maybe you’ll gather a different perspective on the reality of this hobby

I’ll definitely have a drink with you if we’re ever at the same event! I’m not going to sue. I’m not recommending suing. Just telling people their rights. It’s all good. But a timid lawyer I am not, so I’ll always defend my legal position unless determining it is wrong. That’s what lawyers do right? I’d be a very lousy one if I wasn’t confident enough to do that.

I'd say as far back as 1978. The topcoat on my Stars is super hard and resilient.

Sure, there are some minor signs of wear, but the darn thing is 40 years old and has been played to death. Not dead yet though.