(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

3 months ago



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There are 3151 posts in this topic. You are on page 41 of 64.
10
#2002 56 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

minorly imperfect, and you start screaming bloody murder... it’s a little naive

Naïve is when someone who doesn't even own a damaged game presumes to understand the reasoning of the people affected.

#2003 56 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

What I’ve said all along is that it’s on the buyer to understand the terms of agreement before buying a game.
If Stern was playing by their own rules, they’d tell all the owners with pooling and chipping to pound sand.
(We know that would cost them customers, but that’s not the point right now)
They are working on issues “on a case by case basis” apparently. I hope that means that EVERYONE (pooling or chipping) gets a new play field -but if Stern determines that pooling doesn’t affect gameplay, and if they believe that it won’t always lead to chipping, it’s their right to refuse returns. As a buyer, you should know that before putting your money down.
I’m not telling anyone that they should like this state that we’re in. I’m just pointing out the other side to this.
When Stern has so carefully pointed out that playfields are not all covered by warranty and you get one that’s minorly imperfect, and you start screaming bloody murder... it’s a little naive.
It Would be great to better understand what Stern will and won’t replace before buying.
Maybe that’s something that could be asked at Expo, or the next show.

It won't happen, but if there is a class action suit this logic doesn't hold.

A consumer paying minimum $6000 for a new item has reasonable cause that the item will be free of basic defects. It would be argued to a judge that the PF is the focal point of the user, they are staring at it the whole time. Therefore, it IS of significant importance aesthetically to a purchaser. An argument could be made to the judge that it would be comparable to the clear/paint on a new car.

A manufacturer can write up whatever warranty they want; unless the purchaser is explicitly warned of a "no liability" clause and signs it...there are laws that supercede any manufacturer's self-styled bullshit warranty.

If this was an electric toothbrush, that's one thing. But these are expensive luxury items and basic integrity of the PF on an aesthetic basis could be considered by a judge to be relevant.

The judge might very well award the class action and penalize Stern, JJP or other for failing to provide an expensive product that was basically non-defective...because the consumer has reasonable cause to expect that the item is not defective.

Not going to happen and if it did the lawyers end up with most of the settlement anyway so I don't care...but to say that Stern or JJP or other can hide behind their self-written "warranties" that we aren't signing...is not technically correct. There are laws that protect consumers that go beyond warranty.

19
#2004 56 days ago

I have put in two tickets with JJP over the past two months. Besides the automated reply of "we got your ticket", I have had ZERO contact despite several replies from myself to them.

I just spent NIB pin money on a restored ball bowler. Suck it bitches.

#2005 56 days ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

Naïve is when someone who doesn't even own a damaged game presumes to understand the reasoning of the people affected.

This topic isn’t exclusive to people who already have play fields that they are unhappy with.
It will continue to affect all of us who are potential future buyers.
It’s important for all of us to understand what we’re getting into.
In fact, it’s probably even more important for potential buyers than current owners.

#2006 56 days ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

Naïve is when someone who doesn't even own a damaged game presumes to understand the reasoning of the people affected.

There are people who enjoy nothing more than arguing on the internet

#2007 56 days ago
Quoted from gliebig:

I just spent NIB pin money on a restored ball bowler. Suck it bitches.

And just spent some of mine on a loaded MacBook Pro... BTW it was perfect right out of the box

#2008 56 days ago
Quoted from gliebig:

spent NIB pin money on a restored ball bowler.

Let’s see it!

#2009 56 days ago
Quoted from Wickerman2:

Let’s see it!

Haven't taken delivery yet.

#2010 56 days ago
Quoted from gliebig:

Haven't taken delivery yet.

What is it, exactly? As someone who owns an odd-ball vintage bowler, I'm curious.

#2011 56 days ago
Quoted from hawkmoon77:

What is it, exactly? As someone who owns an odd-ball vintage bowler, I'm curious.

a bowler....

bowl (resized).jpg
#2012 56 days ago
Quoted from gliebig:

I have put in two tickets with JJP over the past two months. Besides the automated reply of "we got your ticket", I have had ZERO contact despite several replies from myself to them.
I just spent NIB pin money on a restored ball bowler. Suck it bitches.

instead of buying the latest dinosaur game from Stern (JPLE) I purchased a Galaxy Fire electronic Dart board and a Miracle on Ice Super Chexx Pro bubble hockey game.....and saved $1500

16
#2013 56 days ago
Quoted from gliebig:

I just spent NIB pin money on a restored ball bowler. Suck it bitches.

Spent my NIB money on this. Same price as a Stern LE, no clearcoat problems, no regrets.
20190815_152723 (resized).jpg

#2014 56 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

What I’ve said all along is that it’s on the buyer to understand the terms of agreement before buying a game.
If Stern was playing by their own rules, they’d tell all the owners with pooling and chipping to pound sand.
(We know that would cost them customers, but that’s not the point right now)
They are working on issues “on a case by case basis” apparently. I hope that means that EVERYONE (pooling or chipping) gets a new play field -but if Stern determines that pooling doesn’t affect gameplay, and if they believe that it won’t always lead to chipping, it’s their right to refuse returns. As a buyer, you should know that before putting your money down.
I’m not telling anyone that they should like this state that we’re in. I’m just pointing out the other side to this.
When Stern has so carefully pointed out that playfields are not all covered by warranty and you get one that’s minorly imperfect, and you start screaming bloody murder... it’s a little naive.
It Would be great to better understand what Stern will and won’t replace before buying.
Maybe that’s something that could be asked at Expo, or the next show.

If it is true Stern is now saying playfields arent covered by their warranty, it is a huge red flag. What that says is they've realized they can't figure out how to make a reliable playfield but want to keep churning out games and profits regardless of what happens and what it looks like both before and after it ships.

I honestly cannot understand what the powers that be at Stern are thinking. They are destroying their company brand and integrity by writing a warranty like that and continuing to churn out problem games.

It is a golden opportunity forc a company like CGC to make a move on Stern and start making solidly built non-remake games of their own.

#2015 56 days ago

Just got my refund from jjp for my pirates playfield!

#2016 56 days ago
Quoted from Utesichiban:

If it is true Stern is now saying playfields arent covered by their warranty, it is a huge red flag. What that says is they've realized they can't figure out how to make a reliable playfield but want to keep churning out games and profits regardless of what happens and what it looks like both before and after it ships.
I honestly cannot understand what the powers that be at Stern are thinking. They are destroying their company brand and integrity by writing a warranty like that and continuing to churn out problem games.
It is a golden opportunity forc a company like CGC to make a move on Stern and start making solidly built non-remake games of their own.

I’m hoping that it was included so that Stern could tell some people like KPG to pound sand until they are ready to make the replacement/return, instead of having a return forced down their throat like it was. Their returns are not typically as fast as we would like to see -which I understand, but others have different opinions. (Which is fine too)
And I’m hoping that they will continue to protect all buyers under their “case by case” basis definition.
Regardless of your stance on the subject, it will absolutely cause them to lose some sales in the future if they stick to the exact wording in that warranty, as written currently.
Ideally, we will be provided with some kind of explanation as to how they decide who is, and who isn’t covered under this “case by case” basis.
If pooling is deemed by them to be acceptable, it might be a non-issue for most.
If chipping is deemed acceptable, I’ll bet many home buyers will chose not to take the risk.
The not knowing what is, and what is not deemed as “returnable” is the most frustrating aspect of all this, in my opinion.

10
#2017 56 days ago

I was just offered a bottle of clear coat repair for my pooling ‍♀️ Not sure how that will even remotely help. Sad!

#2018 56 days ago
Quoted from gliebig:

a bowler....[quoted image]

Ahh, nice. Full size then. I got one in a pinball form-factor.

strikes (resized).jpg
#2019 56 days ago
Quoted from Utesichiban:

If it is true Stern is now saying playfields arent covered by their warranty, it is a huge red flag.

Stern warranty from the Dead Pool manual. No mention of playfield imperfections so that's up to their discretion or lawsuit as others have mentioned.
I think the warranties from other manufacturers are similar.

STERN PINBALL INC LIMITED WARRANTY
Stern Pinball Inc ('SELLER') warrants only to the initial purchaser of its products that the items listed below are free from defects in material and workmanship under normal use and service for the warranty period specified:

• Printed circuit boards (game logic): 2 months
• Dot Matrix / LCD Display: 9 months

No other parts of seller's product are warranted. Warranty periods are effective from the initial date of shipment from seller to its authorized distributors.Seller's sole liability shall be, at its option, to repair or replace products which are returned to seller during the warranty periods specified, provided:

1.Seller is notified promptly upon discovery by purchaser that stated products are defective.
2.Such products are properly packaged and then returned freight prepaid, to seller's plant.

This warranty does not apply to any parts damaged during shipment and/or due to improper handling, or due to improper installation or usage, or alteration. In no event shall the seller be liable for any anticipated profits, loss of profits, loss of use, accidental or consequential damages, or any other losses incurred by the customer in connection with the purchase of a Stern Pinball Inc
Product.

WARRANTY DISCLAIMER
Except as specifically provided in a written contract between seller and purchaser, there are no other warranties, express or implied, including any implied warranties of merchantability or fitness for a particular purpose. This Game Service Manual and all other documents relating to this product, playfield components, features, rules, programming, and operation are subject to change without notice (Service Bulletins, if applicable, available through official Stern Pinball website).

ATTENTION! IMPORTANT WARRANTY INFORMATION
The electronics system, node network architecture,mechanical devices and associated software control systems in this pinball machine are designed to work with genuine Stern Pinball accessories and devices.Installation of non-authorized accessories, lamps,LED's, motors or other devices or modification of electro-mechanical devices may damage the system and will void your warranty.

#2020 56 days ago
Quoted from bellbrand:

I was just offered a bottle of clear coat repair for my pooling ‍♀️ Not sure how that will even remotely help. Sad!

What game?

#2021 56 days ago
Quoted from bellbrand:

I was just offered a bottle of clear coat repair for my pooling ‍♀️ Not sure how that will even remotely help. Sad!

Yea what game, thats BS

#2023 56 days ago

Not covering the playfield under warranty will only hurt Stern long term. Many,many people just won’t buy NIB from them. That’s not going to hurt Sterns bottom line. I doubt that.

#2024 56 days ago

I had shoulder surgery shortly after purchasing it and did not start to
play it until recently. I have quite a bit of pooling or whatever people are calling it on quite a few posts. No chipping yet fingers crossed.

#2025 56 days ago
Quoted from bellbrand:

I was just offered a bottle of clear coat repair for my pooling ‍♀️ Not sure how that will even remotely help. Sad!

How would a bottle of clear coat correct pooling? Wouldn't it do the exact opposite?

#2026 56 days ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

How would a bottle of clear coat correct pooling? Wouldn't it do the exact opposite?

Not sure that’s why I’m confused.

#2027 56 days ago
Quoted from Darkwing:

And just spent some of mine on a loaded MacBook Pro. It was perfect right out of the box.

But how do you like its touchscreen?

#2028 56 days ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

How would a bottle of clear coat correct pooling? Wouldn't it do the exact opposite?

Yeah, it's not gonna do jack sh*t. There's air pockets under the art in each one of those "pools", so they're really blisters. Eventually one, more, or all, are going to fracture and the art will pop off along with the clear and then you'll see the wood. That's what happened on my Luci VE, along with everyone else who has wood showing around a post. Are you supposed to drizzle that clear in the chip to seal it down??? I'm curious about what whoever gave you that clear, be it Stern or your distributor, intend for you to do with it?

I locked down the rest of my worst chipped blister with water thin Super Glue, then proceeded to touch up the missing art with acrylic paint, THEN I put clear over the touch-up and polished it. That was a real hoot to do on a 1 year old game, seeing that I have 19 Williams/Bally machines ranging from 22 to 27 years old, and all the art around every single post is fine on those, but hey.. I guess this is progress.

#2029 56 days ago
Quoted from Rum-Z:

Yeah, it's not gonna do jack sh*t. There's air pockets under the art in each one of those "pools", so they're really blisters. Eventually one, more, or all, are going to fracture and the art will pop off along with the clear and then you'll see the wood. That's what happened on my Luci VE, along with everyone else who has wood showing around a post. Are you supposed to drizzle that clear in the chip to seal it down??? I'm curious about what whoever gave you that clear, be it Stern or your distributor, intend for you to do with it?
I locked down the rest of my worst chipped blister with water thin Super Glue, then proceeded to touch up the missing art with acrylic paint, THEN I put clear over the touch-up and polished it. That was a real hoot to do on a 1 year old game, seeing that I have 19 Williams/Bally machines ranging from 22 to 27 years old, and all the art around every single post is fine on those, but hey.. I guess this is progress.

No fucking way I'd go through that much work on a brand new machine. I'll exit the hobby first.

-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107

#2030 56 days ago
Quoted from Rum-Z:

Yeah, it's not gonna do jack sh*t. There's air pockets under the art in each one of those "pools", so they're really blisters. Eventually one, more, or all, are going to fracture and the art will pop off along with the clear and then you'll see the wood. That's what happened on my Luci VE, along with everyone else who has wood showing around a post. Are you supposed to drizzle that clear in the chip to seal it down??? I'm curious about what whoever gave you that clear, be it Stern or your distributor, intend for you to do with it?
I locked down the rest of my worst chipped blister with water thin Super Glue, then proceeded to touch up the missing art with acrylic paint, THEN I put clear over the touch-up and polished it. That was a real hoot to do on a 1 year old game, seeing that I have 19 Williams/Bally machines ranging from 22 to 27 years old, and all the art around every single post is fine on those, but hey.. I guess this is progress.

It was a solution from stern. Hopefully that isn’t the only solution.

-2
#2031 56 days ago
Quoted from Utesichiban:

If it is true Stern is now saying playfields arent covered by their warranty, it is a huge red flag.

Agreed, simple solution to keep sales pumping is build a quality playfield in the first place and they could warranty the hell out of it knowing end users won’t have any defective issues with them.

I know we have seen art lifting at posts due to pressure supposedly bunching the art but is there any guarantee repeated drops say out of ramps or the crypt kicker in the new Elvira pounding the same area of the playfield won’t start to cause the same problems just over a longer period of time?

#2032 56 days ago
Quoted from J85M:

Agreed, simple solution to keep sales pumping is build a quality playfield in the first place and they could warranty the hell out of it knowing end users won’t have any defective issues with them.
I know we have seen art lifting at posts due to pressure supposedly bunching the art but is there any guarantee repeated drops say out of ramps or the crypt kicker in the new Elvira pounding the same area of the playfield won’t start to cause the same problems just over a longer period of time?

Based on my experience with a new JP2 LE, I would say that is a (slight) possibility.

#2033 56 days ago
Quoted from J85M:

I know we have seen art lifting at posts due to pressure supposedly bunching the art but is there any guarantee repeated drops say out of ramps or the crypt kicker in the new Elvira pounding the same area of the playfield won’t start to cause the same problems just over a longer period of time?

If downward (and inward) pressure from posts causes the issues we're seeing with pooling/blistering or whatever you want to call it, it makes you wonder what downward pressure from pinballs from the pop bumper rings are going to do to these playfields. Luckily in the pop bumper pits are factory mylared, at least on my Luci VE, but it makes you wonder what's going on under that mylar.

21
#2034 56 days ago

I haven’t been following this thread too closely as to what the current stance is by JJP for the chipping issues but I bought a spare POTC playfield full price back in May to protect myself as my game does have chipping under both slings. I never opened a ticket or complained to JJP but they just proactively refunded me for the full cost of the playfield. Have to give them props for this.

#2035 56 days ago
Quoted from BillySastard:

Spent my NIB money on this. Same price as a Stern LE, no clearcoat problems, no regrets.
[quoted image]

hahahha... well you get to deal with new wheel, oil change and others with time.

#2036 56 days ago
Quoted from jhoward1082:

I haven’t been following this thread too closely as to what the current stance is by JJP for the chipping issues but I bought a spare POTC playfield full price back in May to protect myself as my game does have chipping under both slings. I never opened a ticket or complained to JJP but they just proactively refunded me for the full cost of the playfield. Have to give them props for this.

That is awesome!

#2037 56 days ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

instead of buying the latest dinosaur game from Stern (JPLE) I purchased a Galaxy Fire electronic Dart board and a Miracle on Ice Super Chexx Pro bubble hockey game.....and saved $1500

Where did you buy the dart board from?

#2038 56 days ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

instead of buying the latest dinosaur game from Stern (JPLE)

download (3) (resized).jpg
10
#2039 56 days ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

instead of buying the latest dinosaur game from Stern (JPLE) I purchased a Galaxy Fire electronic Dart board and a Miracle on Ice Super Chexx Pro bubble hockey game.....and saved $1500

Great great move. Love my super chexx pro. Starting a tournament with friends next month at my place. Pinball just getting too expensive and subpar quality doesn’t help.

#2041 56 days ago
Quoted from yancy:

Fuck this shit.

Really. What the honest f*ck? Stern's digital printing has all the quality of a cheap overlay.

#2042 56 days ago

That's me. I also found three bubbles/blisters. But peeling paint that is right in front of my face? That's kind of hard to be okay with.

Check out this top-down photo: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/welcome-to-the-jurassic-park-le-club/page/16#post-5225485

#2043 56 days ago
Quoted from hawkmoon77:

That's me. I also found three bubbles/blisters. But peeling paint that is right in front of my face? That's kind of hard to be okay with.

Ugh... sorry Hawkmoon.

-1
#2044 56 days ago
Quoted from hawkmoon77:

Based on my experience with a new JP2 LE, I would say that is a (slight) possibility.

Just saw your posts in the owners thread, not good at all and exactly what I feared could be possible. How the hell can you stop the middle of the playfield from lifting if it starts blistering and popping, this needs fixing ASAP! Have my fingers crossed Stern fix this and send you a replacement playfield dude!

#2046 56 days ago

Absolute joke, these games will be fucked in no time. Get your money back or a replacement!

12
#2048 56 days ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Cancel your order yet?

At this point people need their heads testing if they are not cancelling orders.

I wanted a JPLE big time dream theme for my house, called my distributor to get a price, was ready with the money and then I saw the playfield issues the next day, never called him back, no way I’m dropping £10k (nearly 13k USD) on a pin with art that much just rub off.

-13
#2049 56 days ago
Quoted from J85M:

At this point people need their heads testing if they are not cancelling orders.
I wanted a JPLE big time dream theme for my house, called my distributor to get a price, was ready with the money and then I saw the playfield issues the next day, never called him back, no way I’m dropping £10k (nearly 13k USD) on a pin with art that much just rub off.

You ought to relax, seriously.
That playfield is messed up for sure, and I posted support in the LE thread that he should escalate to Stern and expect them to back him up, 100% (just so you know where I'm coming from) -but as I posted there, that looks like a screw ripped through the wet clear and artwork while in the factory.
Owner confirmed that the peeled paint is covered in clear, so unless you know better, I'd say it's not as you described, "paint just flaking off".

I think it's really important to figure out what caused that "tear" in the artwork. If you are somehow correct, then yes, all bets are off and maybe it's best for everyone to wait this out.
But if you're all fired up and yelling "fire!, fire!" when it's just a one-off caused by a sharp screw in the apron that tore through the clear and art at installation, then that's a one-off, and likely not an issue that should frighten potential buyers.

I posted in the other thread that if anyone with a JPLE wants to remove the apron, to see if a screw is located anywhere near there, that might support my theory.

I think the benefit of a place like Pinside is when you have owners helping other owners, not raising pitchforks without much information.

Any other opinions on the cause of that "tear" is welcome, of course!

#2050 56 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

You ought to relax, seriously.
That playfield is messed up for sure, and I posted support in the LE thread that he should escalate to Stern and expect them to back him up, 100% (just so you know where I'm coming from) -but as I posted there, that looks like a screw ripped through the wet clear and artwork while in the factory.
Owner confirmed that the peeled paint is covered in clear, so unless you know better, I'd say it's not as you described, "paint just flaking off".
I think it's really important to figure out what caused that "tear" in the artwork. If you are somehow correct, then yes, all bets are off and maybe it's best for everyone to wait this out.
But if you're all fired up and yelling "fire!, fire!" when it's just a one-off caused by a sharp screw in the apron that tore through the clear and art at installation, then that's a one-off, and likely not an issue that should frighten potential buyers.
I posted in the other thread that if anyone with a JPLE wants to remove the apron, to see if a screw is located anywhere near there, that might support my theory.
I think the benefit of a place like Pinside is when you have owners helping other owners, not raising pitchforks without much information.
Any other opinions on the cause of that "tear" is welcome, of course!

Thanks. I'm going to work with Stern and get their input. I wanted to keep everyone in the loop since this is important for so many people. But I genuinely feel bad if it makes people miss out on a great game for what could be an anomaly or an issue that could be resolved. It is pretty early, still. I'm not panicked just yet!

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