(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

3 months ago



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#1951 75 days ago
Quoted from Jackalwere:

I work in quality in a manufacturing plant. The ability to stop the line to contain a defect and fix it is not suicide, it's incredibly important. You only have to look at the success of Toyota over the past 40 years to understand the significance. Sending out crap product, pissing off your customer base and losing their trust - now *that* is suicide in the manufacturing business.

Amen, brother.

This isn't rocket science. You pay $8k or $10k or more for a product where you're 80% sure to be selling it within 5 years and want to keep it nice and resale value at a premium...it shouldn't start coming apart within a week. That would be like purchasing a car and the clear coat bubbles and starts to rip the paint off in a week.

It's just a failure to have basic QC - they didn't test the playfields. Manufacturers knew the PF's were faulty for a year now and they continued to crank out product. They know we flip these things, they know we're a bit mental about condition and resale.

Let's just call it a failure and a shitty product and move on...they will probably figure this out soon. For me, I'm not purchasing anything new-ish for a year or more. I'm not even going to complain to JJP about my $9500 PoTC, I can live with the small defects and deal with them/prevent further trouble with cliffys and washers. It's a fantastic game, period and I am happy to have it. But that doesn't mean I'm not pissed off they failed with basic QC when they knew there was a problem.

But to say this isn't a problem or isn't resulting in thousands of PF's out there that look 20 or more years aged when they're brand new...well...

#1952 75 days ago
Quoted from Jackalwere:

You've been making a good argument up to this point but I'll have to call BS on this one. First, you or I have no idea whether environmental issues have contributed to the root cause of the problem.
Second, if Spooky, CGC and American Pinball can make a playfield without pooling and chipping, then Stern and JJP should be able to do it too.

Agreed. I should have said something like: “it has been said that the EPA has forced them to change the ingredients”
Who really knows? In this case, it’s kinda irrelevant though. It is what it is and we are forced to deal with these changes.

Again, the silver lining appears to be that currently produced playfields are ok. So fingers are crossed.
(Meaning that whatever they are doing/using currently might be “back to normal”?)

People have declared that the clear is thinner on the new pins. Would be kinda funny if we found out that Stern tried pleasing us all by applying thicker clear, only to have this happen.

#1953 75 days ago
Quoted from Vinnie:

I don't think I'm being unreasonable to not expect this on a playfield less than 3 weeks old. I'm not being a "perfectionist" I understand there is wear and tear in pinball. But this is clearly defective and Stern should stand behind their product. Virtually every post on my playfield has pooling/blistering/creep or whatever you want to call it. Most of these are probably going to chip considering how early the first chip happened. Unfortunately I didn't know about these issues before I made my purchase or I never would have. I could not in good faith recommend anyone buying NIB right now. Hopefully Stern comes through for me and changes my mind but as of right now this was my first and will be my last NIB Stern.[quoted image]

I don’t think anyone here would disagree with you. Good luck with a replacement. I do hope that Stern considers this on a “case by case basis” and rules in your favour.
Heads up though: the return decision and process is typically quite lengthy. Doesn’t happen quickly.

#1954 75 days ago
Quoted from Jackalwere:

You only have to look at the success of Toyota over the past 40 years to understand the significance.

I love their product, and in the automotive world, IMO their quality control is second to none. I own three.

But ohhhh, if you could see the clearcoat peeling off my 2003 Corolla....

#1955 75 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

I don’t think anyone here would disagree with you. Good luck with a replacement. I do hope that Stern considers this on a “case by case basis” and rules in your favour.
Heads up though: the return decision and process is typically quite lengthy. Doesn’t happen quickly.

Thank you I appreciate the support. My distributor told me the same for the time frame. I'm not in a hurry as long as they make it right.

#1956 75 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Again, the silver lining appears to be that currently produced playfields are ok.

currently as in stuff coming off the line right now?

because there are already pictures of stuff made last week with the same issues.

#1957 75 days ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

because there are already pictures of stuff made last week with the same issues.

Where? (I'm not doubting you, just really curious to see.)

#1958 75 days ago

Its crazy that Stern who is the gorilla in this industry doesn't put forth the resources to make what many would argue is the most important part of the pinball game....everything else is relatively easy to change out and many are common components used for 20+ years....instead their solution is to change the warranty and continue to put out shit play fields....

#1959 75 days ago

Pooling without chipping still denotes a clear that is too soft and not up to the reasonable standard in PF clear through the years of pinball. That would mean the clear is defective/bad/wrong. Use whatever word you like but customers should not have to settle on a NIB machine with clear not meeting a common sense standard based on many many years of pins with good clear.

#1960 75 days ago
Quoted from yancy:

Where? (I'm not doubting you, just really curious to see.)

I thought that the Elvira reveal had evidence of clear blistering as well. Dunno if it was made in the last week or so though...

#1961 75 days ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

I don't think the evidence supports your theory.

The evidence definitely supports his theory.

The artwork is not adhering to the wood. The soft clear is sprayed over the top. The clear is definitely adhering to the artwork. Anywhere there is pressure on the playfield (posts, lane guides, aprons etc,etc) the artwork underneath is bunching and taking the clear with it. Once the clear has reached it max point of stretching it will chip out.

Easy explanation.

#1962 75 days ago
Quoted from Oaken:

I thought that the Elvira reveal had evidence of clear blistering as well. Dunno if it was made in the last week or so though...

I dont think the Elvira in the video is a red flag for current stuff at all

I'd basically bet my life on that having been made a "while" ago. Game was announced years back, that's gonna be an early prototype in the video. Wouldn't surprise me if it definitely was made before Jurassic Parks started going out.

#1963 75 days ago
Quoted from wlf_:

I'd basically bet my life on that having been made a "while" ago. Game was announced years back, that's gonna be an early prototype in the video. Wouldn't surprise me if it definitely was made before Jurassic Parks started going out.

One thousand percent this.

#1964 75 days ago
Quoted from yancy:

Where? (I'm not doubting you, just really curious to see.)

JP prem/LE which just started going out the door and have the same issues.
Pics out there of it.

I assume JPLE 'just' started shipping?

#1965 75 days ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

JP prem/LE which just started going out the door and have the same issues.
Pics out there of it.

Where? So far I've only heard good things about LE playfields. Premiums aren't shipping yet. But if there are still issues, I want to see them before my premium ships so I can cancel, if need be.

#1966 75 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

He accused me of it earlier so I’m just having fun with it.
Thinking more about your view point, I’ll say this:
You have an unrealistic level of expectation from Stern.
They have clearly stated that playfields are not under warranty.
You insist on a perfect playfield.
Neither of you is “wrong” but you have not agreed on this matter.
You appear to feel that Stern is obligated/indebted to provide perfect playfields and that anything less than 100% should be replaced at their expense. Remember that this is Stern pinball we’re talking about. It’s not Sony, Apple, or Toyota.
Yes, they are the biggest pinball manufacturer, but this is an industry that most people don’t even know exists.
There are no Ferrari’s in the parking lot.
Given this inability to agree on a perfect playfield, it’s really best for you to avoid buying new in box, and instead to wait and buy a second hand game that you can inspect, ensuring it’s to your satisfaction.
There’s nothing wrong with that, and it’s not meant to belittle or insult you so I hope you can appreciate the observation.
Quite frankly, it shouldn’t matter one bit to me. But I get annoyed when some people (not saying you), can’t understand that Stern is already offering more than they have committed to, and then try to call them out for lying, sweeping things under the rug, etc etc. They may not be operating to your level of expectation, but that doesn’t mean that they’re deceitful or doing anything wrong.

Have you bought a NIB game that has pooling/chipping issues? Serious question.

#1967 75 days ago
Quoted from yancy:

Where? So far I've only heard good things about LE playfields. Premiums aren't shipping yet. But if there are still issues, I want to see them before my premium ships so I can cancel, if need be.

I have a related issue with my LE, but it is not general pooling around the posts. With the removed artwork, and what appears to be a thinner clear coat, there is no noticeable pooling around my posts. HOWEVER, a manufacturing error caused a side wall to be overtightened. As a result, the edge of the wall was pressing against the playfield where there was artwork underneath. The area exposed to the pressure displaced the clear coat causing it to raise (pool) along the edges of the side wall just as it did with earlier pros in the area around posts and washers that had artwork underneath. I don't know if that meets the definition of "fixed pooling problems" or not, but the issue with deformed clear coats in areas of pressure and artwork still remains in my mind. They just removed the artwork and apparently used a thinner clear to reduce the effect.

#1968 75 days ago
Quoted from hawkmoon77:

the edge of the wall was pressing against the playfield where there was artwork underneath. The area exposed to the pressure displaced the clear coat causing it to raise (pool) along the edges of the side wall just as it did with earlier pros in the area around posts and washers that had artwork underneath.

That may illustrate that Stern will probably have to remove artwork under ANYTHING that mounts to the playfield. Ughhh...

#1969 75 days ago
Quoted from Rum-Z:

That may illustrate that Stern will probably have to remove artwork under ANYTHING that mounts to the playfield. Ughhh...

I think they pretty much already do that, so it might not be that bad! This was supposed to be raised above it, but it was incorrectly tightened against it, creating the problem. My obsessive side wants the posts to be centered in that little circle ring though, and they really aren't, so it kind of calls attention to them. I actually think a black sticker above the clear would be less obvious! Either way, these are things I don't notice while actually playing a game.

#1970 75 days ago
Quoted from yancy:

Where? So far I've only heard good things about LE playfields. Premiums aren't shipping yet. But if there are still issues, I want to see them before my premium ships so I can cancel, if need be.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/welcome-to-the-jurassic-park-le-club/page/14#post-5221357

Looks like the extra thin layer of clear got all scratched up. No clue how widespread this issue is.

#1971 75 days ago
Quoted from tpir:

Looks like the extra thin layer of clear got all scratched up.

download (resized).jpg
#1972 75 days ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

Have you bought a NIB game that has pooling/chipping issues? Serious question.

I have not. And yes, chipping would bug me. Pooling? I don’t give a rats behind. If I had chipping, I would hope that Stern would make it right, but know that it’s not guaranteed.

On another note, I have purchased a previous LE (more than one, but one in particular), and lost a ton when I resold it.
I don’t blame Stern for that. I knew all the numbers going in, and that resale prices are dependant on the pins popularity and the market. Life goes on.

#1973 75 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

He accused me of it earlier so I’m just having fun with it.
Thinking more about your view point, I’ll say this:
You have an unrealistic level of expectation from Stern.
They have clearly stated that playfields are not under warranty.
You insist on a perfect playfield.
Neither of you is “wrong” but you have not agreed on this matter.
You appear to feel that Stern is obligated/indebted to provide perfect playfields and that anything less than 100% should be replaced at their expense. Remember that this is Stern pinball we’re talking about. It’s not Sony, Apple, or Toyota.
Yes, they are the biggest pinball manufacturer, but this is an industry that most people don’t even know exists.
There are no Ferrari’s in the parking lot.
Given this inability to agree on a perfect playfield, it’s really best for you to avoid buying new in box, and instead to wait and buy a second hand game that you can inspect, ensuring it’s to your satisfaction.
There’s nothing wrong with that, and it’s not meant to belittle or insult you so I hope you can appreciate the observation.
Quite frankly, it shouldn’t matter one bit to me. But I get annoyed when some people (not saying you), can’t understand that Stern is already offering more than they have committed to, and then try to call them out for lying, sweeping things under the rug, etc etc. They may not be operating to your level of expectation, but that doesn’t mean that they’re deceitful or doing anything wrong.

In all fairness your avatar pic does look a lot like Steve Richie from behind.

#1974 75 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Try to keep up, Utah.
There’s this thing, called “the environment”. And as of late, companies are no longer allowed to use super harsh chemicals because it’s bad for this “environment”. So things have changed.

Here is the thing: just because YOU deem it to be reasonable to expect something, doesn’t mean that the manufacturers are in agreement. In this case, they aren’t. See the warranty if you want evidence.
Your expectations of what constitutes acceptable for a new product from a pinball manufacturer is pretty unrealistic in today’s world.
I LOVE the fact that this has come down to some Pinsiders stating that they demand play field perfection. It makes the discussion so much easier to comprehend. One expectation is not equal to what’s being offered. In this case, the manufacturer has put their commitment in writing. Yours is known only to you and may be subject to change at anytime without notice.

I knew it lol. Pay a bunch, accept less! You literally just shamed pinsiders for demanding what we paid for, in the name of "the environment" and to expect more is then, anti-"the environment." So ridiculous man..

#1975 75 days ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

In all fairness your avatar pic does look a lot like Steve Richie from behind.

That’s funny. That was taken while playing a 4 player game with Lyman, Penny, and a good friend of mine.
One of my favs. I got to play pinball with Lyman!

#1976 75 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

That was taken while playing a 4 player game with Lyman, Penny, and a good friend of mine.
I got to play pinball with Lyman!

Name dropper.

#1977 75 days ago

I dont care who ya are, thats pretty cool..

#1978 75 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

I knew it lol. Pay a bunch, accept less! You literally just shamed pinsiders for demanding what we paid for, in the name of "the environment" and to expect more is then, anti-"the environment." So ridiculous man..

I'd love to know if ANYONE else got that sense from my post. It was not what I had intended, or meant to infer.

#1979 75 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

I'd love to know if ANYONE else got that sense from my post. It was not what I had intended, or meant to infer.

I accept your backwalk on "the environment" and how Stern should not be held liable, lest we ruin the environment by using chemicals that worked as intended just a few years ago.

#1980 75 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

I accept your backwalk on "the environment" and how Stern should not be held liable, lest we ruin the environment by using chemicals that worked as intended just a few years ago.

I just meant that I believe that’s the reason for recent changes.
But as pointed out to me, that’s not been confirmed so I could be mistaken.
Wasn’t trying to guilt anyone for anything.

15
#1981 75 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Try to keep up,

Here is the thing: just because YOU deem it to be reasonable to expect something, doesn’t mean that the manufacturers are in agreement. In this case, they aren’t. See the warranty if you want evidence.
Your expectations of what constitutes acceptable for a new product from a pinball manufacturer is pretty unrealistic in today’s world.

Here is the thing in our country... Our distributor will/has to refund if we are unhappy with the product. Stern could put a 1 day or 1 hour warranty on their Pinballs.. still doesnt mean crap here with our consumer laws.

#1982 75 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:I have not. And yes, chipping would bug me. Pooling? I don’t give a rats behind. If I had chipping, I would hope that Stern would make it right, but know that it’s not guaranteed.
On another note, I have purchased a previous LE (more than one, but one in particular), and lost a ton when I resold it.
I don’t blame Stern for that. I knew all the numbers going in, and that resale prices are dependant on the pins popularity and the market. Life goes on.

Wow, I thought you were someone who paid a lot of money for a game(s) and then had to deal with pooling/chipping. Turns out you have zero skin in the game. Is that about accurate?

-3
#1983 75 days ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

Wow, I thought you were someone who paid a lot of money for a game(s) and then had to deal with pooling/chipping. Turns out you have zero skin in the game. Is that about accurate?

No, it’s not. I’ve spent a truckload of money of numerous NiBs and resell for less each time, obviously.
Taking a further hit with a playfield issue would affect me directly.

So thanks for trying to discount my opinion.

The truth is, it’s not about any of our opinions. Warranties are very clear. What’s covered is very clear.
What you are expecting is not covered by warranty. Feelings aren’t relevant.

#1984 75 days ago
Quoted from Rum-Z:

That may illustrate that Stern will probably have to remove artwork under ANYTHING that mounts to the playfield. Ughhh...

So then we start to use cottonballs instead of steelballs, to avoid damage over time?
I'm not to fucking impressed, but I'm hearing spooky, cgc and American is coming out with new titles soon, so maybe pinball can survive.

#1985 75 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

No, it’s not. I’ve spent a truckload of money of numerous NiBs and resell for less each time, obviously.
Taking a further hit with a playfield issue would affect me directly.
So thanks for trying to discount my opinion.
The truth is, it’s not about any of our opinions. Warranties are very clear. What’s covered is very clear.
What you are expecting is not covered by warranty. Feelings aren’t relevant.

At the end of the day, I agree. If Stern wants to be respected and gain market share, they should produce a quality product. If they dont, we dont have to buy.

Stern has had one issue after another for years and maybe its coming to a head. JP2 and Elvira announced so close together? Tin foil hat on!

#1986 75 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

What you are expecting is not covered by warranty.

Not by Stern's written warranty. Your country/state/other geographical designator may have laws that say otherwise. Could be interesting if a buyer doesn't get a satisfactory response from their distributor or the manufacturer and chooses to sue.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to want a playfield free of major defects.

If every individual tries to handle things on their own I think results will vary greatly. Might be beneficial for affected customers to collect serial numbers, photos, and other information into one shared repository and keep that updated with who you talk to, when, what was said.

#1987 75 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Warranties are very clear. What’s covered is very clear.

But what counts in warranties is how well the clear is covered.

#1988 75 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

There are no Ferrari’s in the parking lot.

But there was a Lamborghini in the executive lot at Williams (3401 N. California Ave.) in the mid-1990's.

Also a Bentley at WMS in Waukegan (and N. California when Brian G. was slumming it) until 2013.

#1989 75 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

On another note, I have purchased a previous LE (more than one, but one in particular), and lost a ton when I resold it.
I don’t blame Stern for that. I knew all the numbers going in, and that resale prices are dependant on the pins popularity and the market. Life goes on.

You are a true warrior of the mean streets of pinball.

#1990 75 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

That’s funny. That was taken while playing a 4 player game with Lyman, Penny, and a good friend of mine.
One of my favs. I got to play pinball with Lyman!

It's Penni, but don't lose any sleep over it.

12
#1991 75 days ago
Quoted from yancy:

Where? So far I've only heard good things about LE playfields. Premiums aren't shipping yet. But if there are still issues, I want to see them before my premium ships so I can cancel, if need be.

Cancel your premium. I among 50 other future LE owners cancelled.

Wait, don’t deal with this shit. Not worth the BS right now. Many people cancelled, Stern is feeling the pain - demand has gone down. I bet between LEs and Premiums cancelled in the last 2 months it is over 100 (on multiple titles). Think about that effect - what is that worth to Stern and how much does that piss off their distributors!!

Not to mention all those that never ordered waiting on the side. Stern, like any manufacturer, will find a solution soon. They can’t afford to keep this going.

#1992 75 days ago

3blc12 (resized).jpg

#1994 75 days ago
Quoted from yancy:

Stop it for a day or two? Sure. Stop it indefinitely while you investigate an issue that may take weeks or months to fully resolve? Maybe Toyota can afford that. I doubt a pinball manufacturer can. Just gotta slap a band-aid (washer) on it and keep moving, correct things as you go, eventually better parts make their way into the pipeline.

First of all, you don't single source something as important as a playfield, warranty or not. I believe I read (don't know if it's true) that at one time Stern had 3 playfield suppliers. With Churchill dropping out, that leaves two. It's pretty much impossible to have two suppliers have the exact same problem at the exact same time, so you can survive by switching to a known good supplier.

If Stern is making clear in house themselves, then they sure as hell better have good internal systems in place to quickly respond to and correct problems. If you had a known good process, then something in your process changes, you contain the problem, apply some root cause analysis, and return the process to the last known good. These are not new concepts, they've been around in manufacturing for 70+ years. I referenced Toyota because when they were a crappy manufacturer in the late 60s and early 70s they fully embraced these concepts to become what they are today.

#1995 74 days ago

Sorry -- But I wanted to add this plug in here for my party event that is in about 3 weeks. I am posting late so I am trying to give it some exposure for those that are able to stop by and enjoy some great pinball / food and drinks -- All Free and tons of fun.

https://pinside.com/pinball/events/3rd-annual-richie-wrench-pinball-party-2019

Thanks for letting me post here on this topic.

#1996 74 days ago
Quoted from Jackalwere:

First of all, you don't single source something as important as a playfield, warranty or not. I believe I read (don't know if it's true) that at one time Stern had 3 playfield suppliers. With Churchill dropping out, that leaves two. It's pretty much impossible to have two suppliers have the exact same problem at the exact same time, so you can survive by switching to a known good supplier and keep the line running.

If Stern is making playfields and clear in house themselves, then they sure as hell better have good internal systems in place to quickly respond to and correct problems. If you had a known good process, then something in your process changes, you contain the problem, apply some root cause analysis, and return the process to the last known good. These are not new concepts, they've been around in manufacturing for 70+ years. I referenced Toyota because when they were a small manufacturer in the late 60s and early 70s they were the first to fully embrace quality concepts to become what they are today rather than ending up like Suzuki, Mazda or Mitsubishi. They sure as hell weren't rolling in money when they were shutting their line down for quality issues as a small company.

#1997 74 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

I'd love to know if ANYONE else got that sense from my post. It was not what I had intended, or meant to infer.

Yea that's how I read it. That's the only way I can read it if you've read all the comments you been making before. I don't understand how you can keep defending this shit and can't comprehend that when people pay $6-10 grand of their hard working money, they expect a item of assured quality. I mean really is it that hard to see why people are so upset? And here you are, haven't even bought one of these POS playfield games and acting like a captain savoStern. GTFO.

#1998 74 days ago
Quoted from Jackalwere:

If Stern is making clear in house themselves,

They aren’t. The cut the playfields in house, then send out to one of multiple vendors for art and clear.

#1999 74 days ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

They aren’t. The cut the playfields in house, then send out to one of multiple vendors for art and clear.

Hmmm.... They aren't water jetting them, are they? I can't imagine they are. But they aren't, right?

-5
#2000 74 days ago
Quoted from V4Vendetta:

Yea that's how I read it. That's the only way I can read it if you've read all the comments you been making before. I don't understand how you can keep defending this shit and can't comprehend that when people pay $6-10 grand of their hard working money, they expect a item of assured quality. I mean really is it that hard to see why people are so upset? And here you are, haven't even bought one of these POS playfield games and acting like a captain savoStern. GTFO.

What I’ve said all along is that it’s on the buyer to understand the terms of agreement before buying a game.
If Stern was playing by their own rules, they’d tell all the owners with pooling and chipping to pound sand.
(We know that would cost them customers, but that’s not the point right now)
They are working on issues “on a case by case basis” apparently. I hope that means that EVERYONE (pooling or chipping) gets a new play field -but if Stern determines that pooling doesn’t affect gameplay, and if they believe that it won’t always lead to chipping, it’s their right to refuse returns. As a buyer, you should know that before putting your money down.

I’m not telling anyone that they should like this state that we’re in. I’m just pointing out the other side to this.
When Stern has so carefully pointed out that playfields are not all covered by warranty and you get one that’s minorly imperfect, and you start screaming bloody murder... it’s a little naive.

It Would be great to better understand what Stern will and won’t replace before buying.
Maybe that’s something that could be asked at Expo, or the next show.

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