(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

3 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 3,151 posts
  • 400 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 days ago by Pachill
  • Topic is favorited by 112 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 341 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

PB060048 (resized).JPG
IMG_20191113_005534.jpg
IMG_20191113_005516.jpg
IMG_20191113_005501.jpg
A9B9EFA4-D492-4687-BC00-4F9941A21CC6 (resized).png
IMG_0362 (resized).jpeg
20191104_094400 (resized).jpg
IM1 (resized).jpg
download (1) (resized).jpg
IMAG4130 (resized).jpg
Screenshot_20191105-090819 (resized).jpg
7251FC68-3BA0-498E-A517-44138D553047 (resized).png
sling post (resized).JPG
24E28045-2F31-4BA8-B740-F4ABADC2E253 (resized).jpeg
C46C1715-247E-4118-8680-090B31335FC8 (resized).jpeg
9D4E9D32-614F-454E-AFFA-C3E888BC5E92 (resized).jpeg

There are 3151 posts in this topic. You are on page 38 of 64.
#1851 58 days ago
Quoted from Jason_Jehosaphat:

Report on JP2LE Playfield on Location:
Just thought I would post what I see re: the clearcoat on the one JP2LE on location in my region. I'm lucky enough that it's just a mile away at the wonderful Tilt Pinball Bar.
So, I see...
1. A much thinner layer of clear, but I *don't* see any rough areas from insufficient coverage - the shooter lane, for instance.
2. A ring in the graphics surrounding the bases of various posts.
3. Plenty of typical dimpling, in particular around the truck toy - and this game was *just* installed. I saw it after three days of action, so it may have had 150 plays on it, tops.
If I had to deduce Stern's fix based on what I see, I would say they have *not* changed their playfield vendor, but instead have simply asked them to apply less clear. I can only guess if the clear being applied is truly a new formulation, but it seems plausible that it's same OSHA-compliant water-based clear that first appeared on IMDN playfields eighteen months ago. My sincere hope was that Stern would be pressured into making real/permanent changes to their playfields with respect to hardness/durability, but I see no evidence of that in this example at least. I do see a beautiful JP2LE though. Wow!

Great to hear a beautiful JPLE

#1852 58 days ago
Quoted from littlecammi:

And at least it's a guitargument and not a cargument.

Ha... At least lacquer on wood seems more similar to me than a 2 part uerthane on steel. But I know nothing about finishing a car and even less about painting PFs.

#1853 58 days ago
Quoted from hawkmoon77:

<snip>I don't know if it is a similar cause here, but with regard to guitars -- if this happens, it has almost everything to do with curing. Here are some factors:
<snip>
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Awesome/helpful post! Thanks.

#1854 58 days ago

I think Stern will take care of the chipped pf’s like they have in the past, eventually, and then everything else is “what’s done is done”

I’m sure they have already factored into the calculus that they have lost a certain % of customers for good that aren’t happy for various reasons

Certainly not ideal for them as the pf saga plays itself out but they need to focus on getting it right going forward

If you are expecting some sort of blanket admission of guilt and defective products you are F ing dreaming.

#1855 58 days ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Very interesting.
So pooling becomes 'creeping'.
I think every washer version, is going to suffer from creeping.

Actually they normally just say "creep" and leave of the "ing"!

I don't really care what they call it though if we could just get a decently dimple resistant surface with a solid clear coat

#1856 58 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

I think we all can appreciate your stance, especially if the chipping has occurred in so many areas.
I would hope that Stern does take care of you. I would almost guarantee though that it won’t happen quickly.

I believe the bottom line issue in most cases is not that pooling or chipping, etc affect game play they affect the price when you go sell.

Would you pay the same price for a pooling/chipping playfield-game as one that has it without- no liars here - you won’t. Same applies in other applications- you have 2 great cars - one has a few more scratches/minor cosmetic- no way I am paying the same price.

You ask widespread- define widespread and we can answer the questions.

Hundreds of playfields per Pinside posts in multiple forums have shown this (read them) over the last 3 years of making them. If you answered above that it affects what you are willing to pay (which is 90%+ of people) - that is where the rub is.

I agree Stern can’t financially replace all these playfields. But at some point they will have to address publicly and not say it like just a small run on JP. If they don’t (which is most likely) - I will no longer buy new. And I have bought a lot of NIB LEs. I among 50 others canceled our JPLE orders with no communication from Stern. Distributors got angry aggressive with Stern which forced Sterns hand to address.

FYI - they did stop the JP line to address and change design (good for them). Now what to do about previous machines.....tbd!

#1857 58 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

And there’s a whole other interesting topic of discussion. Pooling.
ASSUMING it’s only ever pooling, and doesn’t get to chipping, should Stern pay to replace entire playfields?.

But that’s the problem - we have no idea how often pooling won’t result in chipping. We’ve seen some chipping in a few days, some in a few months - what if a game shows pooling but chipping doesn’t happen until 3,4,5 years from now? Why should an owner have to take that risk and not the manufacturer?

If you knew it wouldn’t get worse, some might be ok with minor pooling. But with no long term data to support that, it’s safer to assume the worst rather than the best.

#1858 58 days ago

So, if the guitar example is relevant, maybe this is all related to cost cutting. I’m sure it’s cheaper to apply fewer, thicker coats as opposed to more, thinner coats.

#1859 58 days ago

Here is another example of the potential issue:

Guy just bought this new from Stern:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/1313-mockingbird-lane-munsters-club/page/119#post-5220468

Doesn’t sound happy - Stern can’t afford to say nothing.

Or they will continue to get a shit load of calls. My guess is they will say something during or before upcoming Chicago expo.

#1860 58 days ago
Quoted from hawkmoon77:

For what it's worth, I build musical instruments as a hobby, and there is a known issue with lacquer pooling around the guitar tuners on the headstock. I don't know if it is a similar cause here, but with regard to guitars -- if this happens, it has almost everything to do with curing. Here are some factors:
- 3 thin coats spaced 30 minutes apart, then a full nights cure, then repeat the next day. Then allow a few weeks before tightening the guitar tuners on. This allows the solvents to evaporate correctly between sprays. Applying too thick of a coat too soon will trap the solvents as the outer layer "skins." And while reducing the overall thickness of the clear would help prevent the problem, super thin clear coats aren't generally well received in the guitar world (where applicable) because they lack visual depth and have poor wear resistance.
- Tightening a guitar tuner on uncured clear will trap solvents under the nut. These trapped solvents will soften the paint or finish underneath. This will manifest as a flaking clear coat.
- In the luthier world, it's called creep. It happens to glue and clear coats. A thick glue, when squeezed together,will push out slowly over time during the drying process resulting in what is being called pooling here. This is removed before finishing, but a thick, built up clear coat will do this too. The continuous pressure on uncured clear will cause it to slowly migrate toward the outer edges and pool or bubble. The trapped solvents will then leach into the underlying finish, softening it, and making it flake off. If is unpainted natural wood, it is less likely to happen because the solvents leach into the raw wood and disperse better. The hardest part is that creep is difficult to catch because it all looks fine at first until a week or so later when the clear slowly migrates out to the edges.
The luthier community solved this problem a long time ago by applying more thin coats instead of fewer thicker coats, letting them dry between coats, and then allowing it to cure before covering up portions of it with screwed down nuts. Every so often, the issue re-emerges when a manufacturer decides to save time by changing up the process.
I am NOT saying that is what is happening to the PFs, and there are other things that can cause similar problems (like overtightening, bad lacquer chemistry, bad surface prep, etc.), but I can't help notice a similarity between these problems.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Seems similar to the playfield issues.

#1861 58 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

If you are expecting some sort of blanket admission of guilt and defective products you are F ing dreaming.

Not in this business, baby! Coin-op is the sleaziest of the sleazy.

#1862 58 days ago
Quoted from hawkmoon77:

For what it's worth, I build musical instruments as a hobby, and there is a known issue with lacquer pooling around the guitar tuners on the headstock. I don't know if it is a similar cause here, but with regard to guitars -- if this happens, it has almost everything to do with curing. Here are some factors:
- 3 thin coats spaced 30 minutes apart, then a full nights cure, then repeat the next day. Then allow a few weeks before tightening the guitar tuners on. This allows the solvents to evaporate correctly between sprays. Applying too thick of a coat too soon will trap the solvents as the outer layer "skins." And while reducing the overall thickness of the clear would help prevent the problem, super thin clear coats aren't generally well received in the guitar world (where applicable) because they lack visual depth and have poor wear resistance.
- Tightening a guitar tuner on uncured clear will trap solvents under the nut. These trapped solvents will soften the paint or finish underneath. This will manifest as a flaking clear coat.
- In the luthier world, it's called creep. It happens to glue and clear coats. A thick glue, when squeezed together,will push out slowly over time during the drying process resulting in what is being called pooling here. This is removed before finishing, but a thick, built up clear coat will do this too. The continuous pressure on uncured clear will cause it to slowly migrate toward the outer edges and pool or bubble. The trapped solvents will then leach into the underlying finish, softening it, and making it flake off. If is unpainted natural wood, it is less likely to happen because the solvents leach into the raw wood and disperse better. The hardest part is that creep is difficult to catch because it all looks fine at first until a week or so later when the clear slowly migrates out to the edges.
The luthier community solved this problem a long time ago by applying more thin coats instead of fewer thicker coats, letting them dry between coats, and then allowing it to cure before covering up portions of it with screwed down nuts. Every so often, the issue re-emerges when a manufacturer decides to save time by changing up the process.
I am NOT saying that is what is happening to the PFs, and there are other things that can cause similar problems (like overtightening, bad lacquer chemistry, bad surface prep, etc.), but I can't help notice a similarity between these problems.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Great post. As a point of reference, I recently pulled a piece of Mylar from the upper orbit of maiden. The smell of uncured clearcoat was so strong it was amazing! Do doubt about how soft it still was and just sealed in by the Mylar.

#1863 58 days ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Great post. As a point of reference, I recently pulled a piece of Mylar from the upper orbit of maiden. The smell of uncured clearcoat was so strong it was amazing! Do doubt about how soft it still was and just sealed in by the Mylar.

I love the smell of clearcoat, in the morning.

#1864 58 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

No, of course not. I never said that anyone was a liar.
The discussion is whether there are enough issues to be called “widespread”.
I’ve posted enough on the subject as expressed my opinion.
You are all welcome to your own, and I respect that, truly.
I’m just not a fan if people labelling Stern when I don’t think they are intentionally deceiving anyone.
Of course, you are welcome to vote with your wallets and avoid future pins u til such time as you feel supported enough to purchase.

Dude, if its happening across multiple lines, that seems to indicate a problem, that is probably wide spread.

#1865 58 days ago
Quoted from jfh:

So, if the guitar example is relevant, maybe this is all related to cost cutting. I’m sure it’s cheaper to apply fewer, thicker coats as opposed to more, thinner coats.

You could be right. It is most definitely faster to apply fewer coats...

#1866 58 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

“sweeping it under the rug” has a much more sinister meaning, in my opinion.

what connotation do you give the term 'cover-up'?

from wikipedia:

A cover-up is an attempt, whether successful or not, to conceal evidence of wrongdoing, error, incompetence or other embarrassing information. In a passive cover-up, information is simply not provided; in an active cover-up, deception is used.

The expression is usually applied to people in positions of authority who abuse power to avoid or silence criticism or to deflect guilt of wrongdoing. Perpetrators of a cover-up may be responsible for a misdeed, a breach of trust or duty, or a crime.

... cover-up involves withholding incriminatory evidence ...

A cover-up involving multiple parties is a kind of conspiracy.

#1867 58 days ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

Coin-op is the sleaziest of the sleazy.

But...but...but... we are high class collectors here who expect only the best.

-25
#1868 58 days ago
Quoted from greenhornet:

what connotation do you give the term 'cover-up'?
from wikipedia:
A cover-up is an attempt, whether successful or not, to conceal evidence of wrongdoing, error, incompetence or other embarrassing information. In a passive cover-up, information is simply not provided; in an active cover-up, deception is used.
The expression is usually applied to people in positions of authority who abuse power to avoid or silence criticism or to deflect guilt of wrongdoing. Perpetrators of a cover-up may be responsible for a misdeed, a breach of trust or duty, or a crime.
... cover-up involves withholding incriminatory evidence ...
A cover-up involving multiple parties is a kind of conspiracy.

Well, if they said it's not widespread, they're not indicating it didn't happen. And again, given the number of pins that were produced, and given we don't know how many have experienced chipping (I'm going to assume that Stern isnt concerned about pooling since it 's only cosmetic), it could absolutely be considered to be "not widespread".
So no, "cover-up" is equally ridiculous and accusatory.

With respect to another posters comments, assuming that all of the pooling will lead to chipping in a few years and demanding playfields be replaced is also absolutely insane. What company is going to spend money, replacing things that aren't broken.

Pinside is nuts. It COULD be the most positive place to discuss pinball, where distributors like Stern COULD ask us for opinions and feedback.
Instead, (and I'm going to quote a friend here) it's a dumpster fire that Stern understandably wants no part of.

From my point of view, you can't accuse them of lying, using words like "cover up" and also expect them to spend thousands of dollars on issues that haven't proven to be a problem yet (pooling), and also criticize them for not announcing every issue they encounter.
Their choice to deal with defects on a case by case basis is the only thing that seems to make sense around here.

You are welcome to be critical of the way they operate, and refuse to spend your hard earned cash on anything they produce.
I on the other hand, am looking forward to picking up a Jurassic Park Premium as soon as possible.

I am currently "out of F(*&s to give" as they say. If you want to hate on Stern, have fun with your Wonkas.
I'm out.

#1869 58 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Well, if they said it's not widespread, they're not indicating it didn't happen. And again, given the number of pins that were produced, and given we don't know how many have experienced chipping (I'm going to assume that Stern isnt concerned about pooling since it 's only cosmetic), it could absolutely be considered to be "not widespread".
So no, "cover-up" is equally ridiculous and accusatory.
With respect to another posters comments, assuming that all of the pooling will lead to chipping in a few years and demanding playfields be replaced is also absolutely insane. What company is going to spend money, replacing things that aren't broken.
Pinside is nuts. It COULD be the most positive place to discuss pinball, where distributors like Stern COULD ask us for opinions and feedback.
Instead, (and I'm going to quote a friend here) it's a dumpster fire that Stern understandably wants no part of.
From my point of view, you can't accuse them of lying, using words like "cover up" and also expect them to spend thousands of dollars on issues that haven't proven to be a problem yet (pooling), and also criticize them for not announcing every issue they encounter.
Their choice to deal with defects on a case by case basis is the only thing that seems to make sense around here.
You are welcome to be critical of the way they operate, and refuse to spend your hard earned cash on anything they produce.
I on the other hand, am looking forward to picking up a Jurassic Park Premium as soon as possible.
I am currently "out of F(*&amp;s to give" as they say. If you want to hate on Stern, have fun with your Wonkas.
I'm out.

Ok. If you were running Stern, how would you address this situation and what would your criteria be for playfield replacement?

-1
#1870 58 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Well, if they said it's not widespread, they're not indicating it didn't happen. And again, given the number of pins that were produced, and given we don't know how many have experienced chipping (I'm going to assume that Stern isnt concerned about pooling since it 's only cosmetic), it could absolutely be considered to be "not widespread".
So no, "cover-up" is equally ridiculous and accusatory.
With respect to another posters comments, assuming that all of the pooling will lead to chipping in a few years and demanding playfields be replaced is also absolutely insane. What company is going to spend money, replacing things that aren't broken.
Pinside is nuts. It COULD be the most positive place to discuss pinball, where distributors like Stern COULD ask us for opinions and feedback.
Instead, (and I'm going to quote a friend here) it's a dumpster fire that Stern understandably wants no part of.
From my point of view, you can't accuse them of lying, using words like "cover up" and also expect them to spend thousands of dollars on issues that haven't proven to be a problem yet (pooling), and also criticize them for not announcing every issue they encounter.
Their choice to deal with defects on a case by case basis is the only thing that seems to make sense around here.
You are welcome to be critical of the way they operate, and refuse to spend your hard earned cash on anything they produce.
I on the other hand, am looking forward to picking up a Jurassic Park Premium as soon as possible.
I am currently "out of F(*&amp;s to give" as they say. If you want to hate on Stern, have fun with your Wonkas.
I'm out.

I could really care less if they admit theres a problem or not. Like you said its their choice on how they want to run their business. I do however believe it says a lot about a company on how they address issues, and there is no doubt that pooling/chipping has been an issue. Whats great is there are people like yourself that will continue to buy these games (in most cases without even playing the game), and then dump them after 6 months so people like myself can pick them up at a discount....buy away !

10
#1871 58 days ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

Not in this business, baby! Coin-op is the sleaziest of the sleazy.

Hey that gives me an idea. To bring back pinball in a huge way Stern should figure out how to put a coin pusher mech in each game that drops quarters for hitting certain shots or scores!

Put the coin pusher in the back box and watch men, women and children go nuts. Lol

Boom boom, location pinball is back baby

#1872 58 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Hey that gives me an idea. To bring back pinball in a huge way Stern should figure out how to put a coin pusher mech in each game that drops quarters for hitting certain shots or scores!
Put the coin pusher in the back box and watch men, women and children go nuts. Lol
Boom boom, location pinball is back baby

There's a stern Simpsons game like that. It's really fun

#1873 58 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Well, if they said it's not widespread, they're not indicating it didn't happen. And again, given the number of pins that were produced, and given we don't know how many have experienced chipping (I'm going to assume that Stern isnt concerned about pooling since it 's only cosmetic), it could absolutely be considered to be "not widespread".
So no, "cover-up" is equally ridiculous and accusatory.
With respect to another posters comments, assuming that all of the pooling will lead to chipping in a few years and demanding playfields be replaced is also absolutely insane. What company is going to spend money, replacing things that aren't broken.
Pinside is nuts. It COULD be the most positive place to discuss pinball, where distributors like Stern COULD ask us for opinions and feedback.
Instead, (and I'm going to quote a friend here) it's a dumpster fire that Stern understandably wants no part of.
From my point of view, you can't accuse them of lying, using words like "cover up" and also expect them to spend thousands of dollars on issues that haven't proven to be a problem yet (pooling), and also criticize them for not announcing every issue they encounter.
Their choice to deal with defects on a case by case basis is the only thing that seems to make sense around here.
You are welcome to be critical of the way they operate, and refuse to spend your hard earned cash on anything they produce.
I on the other hand, am looking forward to picking up a Jurassic Park Premium as soon as possible.
I am currently "out of F(*&amp;s to give" as they say. If you want to hate on Stern, have fun with your Wonkas.
I'm out.

Wrong. I just got informed that I have a recall on a 2010 vehicle I own. Has it been a problem, no. Should the manufacturer take care of it if they identify a problem. Ill let you answer that.

#1874 58 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Wrong. I just got informed that I have a recall on a 2010 vehicle I own. Has it been a problem, no. Should the manufacturer take care of it if they identify a problem. Ill let you answer that.

There is a big difference between a "Service Action" or Campaign versus a "Recall". Whether the Recall is "voluntary" or forced, it means NHTSA was involved in the USA, MOT in Canada, TUV in Germany etc.

-1
#1875 58 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Wrong. I just got informed that I have a recall on a 2010 vehicle I own. Has it been a problem, no. Should the manufacturer take care of it if they identify a problem. Ill let you answer that.

Again, absolutely ridiculous.
A car that’s defective is massively different from a pinball machine.
(I don’t want to give it away completely, but think of what happens to the user when these two very different machines fail to operate as intended)

The other thing to consider is this: Pinsiders appear to consider pooling on par with global warming. Operators likely do not share the same concern. So Stern announcing a recall and drawing attention to something that’s perhaps not even important, is not only unnecessary, it’s throwing money down the drain. That money is recouped with higher prices.
If that’s what you want, you’re on your own.

#1876 58 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Again, absolutely ridiculous.
A car that’s defective is massively different from a pinball machine.
(I don’t want to give it away completely, but think of what happens to the user when these two very different machines fail to operate as intended)
The other thing to consider is this: Pinsiders appear to consider pooling on par with global warming. Operators likely do not share the same concern. So Stern announcing a recall and drawing attention to something that’s perhaps not even important, is not only unnecessary, it’s throwing money down the drain. That money is recouped with higher prices.
If that’s what you want, you’re on your own.

Well you’re wrong! I drove my pinball machine right into my neighbors house. 4 people killed. Don’t drink and slap-save kids!

10
#1877 58 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Again, absolutely ridiculous.
A car that’s defective is massively different from a pinball machine.
(I don’t want to give it away completely, but think of what happens to the user when these two very different machines fail to operate as intended)
The other thing to consider is this: Pinsiders appear to consider pooling on par with global warming. Operators likely do not share the same concern. So Stern announcing a recall and drawing attention to something that’s perhaps not even important, is not only unnecessary, it’s throwing money down the drain. That money is recouped with higher prices.
If that’s what you want, you’re on your own.

Problem is operators are becoming the minority here, the market has shifted to home use. Stern like it or not has a deal with a different level of expectation. The good news is Stern now has tons of new home use customers, bad news are pinball quality expectations have shifted.

32
#1878 58 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:Again, absolutely ridiculous.
A car that’s defective is massively different from a pinball machine.
(I don’t want to give it away completely, but think of what happens to the user when these two very different machines fail to operate as intended)
The other thing to consider is this: Pinsiders appear to consider pooling on par with global warming. Operators likely do not share the same concern. So Stern announcing a recall and drawing attention to something that’s perhaps not even important, is not only unnecessary, it’s throwing money down the drain. That money is recouped with higher prices.
If that’s what you want, you’re on your own.

I think your missing the point...Stern chose to market to high end collectors, and priced their games accordingly. With that comes a different level of expectation

#1879 58 days ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Whether the Recall is "voluntary" or forced, it means NHTSA was involved in the USA, MOT in Canada, TUV in Germany etc.

Pinball needs it's own NHTSA now. Something like APCCLU. Anal Pinball Collectors Civil Liberties Union.

-6
#1880 57 days ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

I think your missing the point...Stern chose to market to high end collectors, and priced their games accordingly. With that comes a different level of expectation

I’m not missing the point at all. We weren’t talking about how high the bar has to be for high end collectors.
But since you bring it up, are you suggesting that the owners of Pro machines aren’t entitled to the same level of quality as the LE owners? Please clarify.
My own view is that all machines should operate as intended. I would say that large chips could prevent that from happening and should warrant replacement. I would also suggest that smaller chips do not change the playability, but given the cost of these, it’s a “nice” thing for Stern to eat the replacement cost, if possible.
Pooling? Shouldn’t even be replaced for high end collectors UNLESS it’s proven to deteriorate to severe chipping in the future.

If you think that you have the right to a replacement simply because there are small wrinkles around a couple posts that you only notice when searching for, after having read about it on Pinside, that’s your right. But good luck with that.
This isn’t a Rolex or a Masseratti we’re talking about.

I would much prefer to hold them accountable to better playing auto launcher mechs, for example.

#1881 57 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

I’m not missing the point at all. We weren’t talking about how high the bar has to be for high end collectors.
But since you bring it up, are you suggesting that the owners of Pro machines aren’t entitled to the same level of quality as the LE owners? Please clarify.
My own view is that all machines should operate as intended. I would say that large chips could prevent that from happening and should warrant replacement. I would also suggest that smaller chips do not change the playability, but given the cost of these, it’s a “nice” thing for Stern to eat the replacement cost, if possible.
Pooling? Shouldn’t even be replaced for high end collectors UNLESS it’s proven to deteriorate to severe chipping in the future.
If you think that you have the right to a replacement simply because there are small wrinkles around a couple posts that you only notice when searching for, after having read about it on Pinside, that’s your right. But good luck with that.
This isn’t a Rolex or a Masseratti we’re talking about.
I would much prefer to hold them accountable to better playing auto launcher mechs, for example.

they cost as much as a Rolex ... never said Pro owners weren't entitled...pooling is one issue that may or may not lead to big problems in the future, but chipping within a year of owning a machine is ridiculous and should be replaced....Stern charges a big premium for an LE model that is basically bling as the play field/mechs are exactly the same as a premium.....with that comes expectations that that bling does chip or start falling apart in 6 months, and yes that includes the play field.

13
#1882 57 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Well, if they said it's not widespread, they're not indicating it didn't happen. And again, given the number of pins that were produced, and given we don't know how many have experienced chipping (I'm going to assume that Stern isnt concerned about pooling since it 's only cosmetic), it could absolutely be considered to be "not widespread".
So no, "cover-up" is equally ridiculous and accusatory.
With respect to another posters comments, assuming that all of the pooling will lead to chipping in a few years and demanding playfields be replaced is also absolutely insane. What company is going to spend money, replacing things that aren't broken.
Pinside is nuts. It COULD be the most positive place to discuss pinball, where distributors like Stern COULD ask us for opinions and feedback.
Instead, (and I'm going to quote a friend here) it's a dumpster fire that Stern understandably wants no part of.
From my point of view, you can't accuse them of lying, using words like "cover up" and also expect them to spend thousands of dollars on issues that haven't proven to be a problem yet (pooling), and also criticize them for not announcing every issue they encounter.
Their choice to deal with defects on a case by case basis is the only thing that seems to make sense around here.
You are welcome to be critical of the way they operate, and refuse to spend your hard earned cash on anything they produce.
I on the other hand, am looking forward to picking up a Jurassic Park Premium as soon as possible.
I am currently "out of F(*&amp;s to give" as they say. If you want to hate on Stern, have fun with your Wonkas.
I'm out.

Thanks for chiming in and joining the discussion, Gary.

#1883 57 days ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

I think your missing the point...Stern chose to market to high end collectors, and priced their games accordingly. With that comes a different level of expectation

You're supposed to think whatever the other people tell you what you should think. Geez man, I mean you can't possibly think you're entitled to your own opinion!
Btw, fully agree with you.

#1884 57 days ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Stern chose to market to high end collectors, and priced their games accordingly. With that comes a different level of expectation

Very well said, bulls eye!

#1885 57 days ago

So the Stern release photographs of Elvira clearly show artwork underneath both slings. I’m curious if those photos were taken before they discovered the problem and made the changes to the JP LE playfiields

B0D9D071-3376-42E6-86DD-10941AF9C318 (resized).png
#1886 57 days ago
Quoted from GamerRick:

So the Stern release photographs of Elvira clearly show artwork underneath both slings. I’m curious if those photos were taken before they discovered the problem and made the changes to the JP LE playfiields[quoted image]

I originally thought the same but the posts look like the have black circles.
Hard to tell,

#1887 57 days ago

Funny, as I look at my 90s B/W games, they all have artwork under the posts and not a one exhibits any signs of pooling or paint loss there.

Posts cranked down tight too. I know, because I installed them. This former auto mechanic doesn't like his work coming loose.

#1888 57 days ago
Quoted from o-din:

Funny, as I look at my 90s B/W games, they all have artwork under the posts and not a one exhibits any signs of pooling or paint loss there.
Posts cranked down tight too. I know, because I installed them. This former auto mechanic doesn't like his work coming loose.

But.. but.. toxic chemicals or something.

Not doing the clear properly and letting it cure in good time too...

#1889 57 days ago

This has now been mentioned a few times. The clear coat isn’t the issue with this whole pooling situation. Since the paint does stick to the clear coat wich does eventually crack lose. It’s a paint issue. The paint does come of the wood wich shouldn’t happen.

Stern has had clear coat issues back in 2016 when GB was released. But this issue has been mostly addressed. The issue we have now is a different story.

#1890 57 days ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

You're supposed to think whatever the other people tell you what you should think. Geez man, I mean you can't possibly think you're entitled to your own opinion!
Btw, fully agree with you.

Well I don’t agree with you. Please elaborate.

#1891 57 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Who is gonna organize the attack on Stern at expo and demand answers from them on the spot? Or will it be the usual ass kissing contest?
Need to hammer away like this thread until they cave!
Tie yourselves together in a human blockade and block off the exits until we get some info!

I think we should be constructive and ask the question constructively and positively rather than the pinside torch and fork brigade.

"We notice some ongoing questions with playfield curing, what can you tell us about it? and what help can pinheads give you to solve the problem and what can pinheads do to look after their games to the best effect?"

I want to get a response from Stern knowing that they won't want to admit a problem exists, if we put them on the spot we will get nothing and that would be frustrating so lets be smart about it.

Cheers,
Neil.

#1892 57 days ago
Quoted from Midway-Man:

This has now been mentioned a few times. The clear coat isn’t the issue with this whole pooling situation. Since the paint does stick to the clear coat wich does eventually crack lose. It’s a paint issue. The paint does come of the wood wich shouldn’t happen.
Stern has had clear coat issues back in 2016 when GB was released. But this issue has been mostly addressed. The issue we have now is a different story.

I don't think the evidence supports your theory.

#1893 57 days ago
Quoted from o-din:

Funny, as I look at my 90s B/W games, they all have artwork under the posts and not a one exhibits any signs of pooling or paint loss there.

It won't do as it is screen printed. That's 5 layers of paint and then possibly 2 layers of solvent epoxy clear.

whereas these are digitally printed which is a microscopically thin layer of ink/paint and then 2+ layers of water based clear.

You want a bulletproof playfield?

Use marine ply (no voids, hardwood)
Run it through a roller to compress the fibres
Screen print it in a 5 layer process using lead based ink
Clear it with 2 layers of solvent clear
and allow proper curing time between all of them.

Of course this is now impossible but if Zaccaria could do it, then it must still be technically possible.

#1894 57 days ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

I think we should be constructive and ask the question constructively and positively rather than the pinside torch and fork brigade.
"We notice some ongoing questions with playfield curing, what can you tell us about it? and what help can pinheads give you to solve the problem and what can pinheads do to look after their games to the best effect?"
I want to get a response from Stern knowing that they won't want to admit a problem exists, if we put them on the spot we will get nothing and that would be frustrating so lets be smart about it.
Cheers,
Neil.

I like your attitude. Unfortunately, when many people are rightfully pissed about being sold a knowingly defective product, it is sometimes hard to bottle that emotion. Esp if you have to deal with the smugness that Stern can often come off with towards their paying customer base.

At a certain point, you have to remember that we are the customers and nice goes out the window.
Sometimes it is important to back a manufacturer into an uncomfortable spotlight.

#1895 57 days ago

The longer buyers sit on the sidelines, the more they may come to realize there are other things to do and collect thus lower long term sales for manufacturers.... unexpected consequences.

#1896 57 days ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

I think we should be constructive and ask the question constructively and positively rather than the pinside torch and fork brigade.
"We notice some ongoing questions with playfield curing, what can you tell us about it? and what help can pinheads give you to solve the problem and what can pinheads do to look after their games to the best effect?"
I want to get a response from Stern knowing that they won't want to admit a problem exists, if we put them on the spot we will get nothing and that would be frustrating so lets be smart about it.
Cheers,
Neil.

"Well, there are no widespread playfield issues. We've only had 6-8 reports of playfield problems. Don't hesitate to buy a Stern game. If you have a problem contact your distributor".

Could be word for word lol.

I would just flat out ask them "What is the cause of playfield clear pooling and chipping on recent Stern games"?

#1897 57 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

"Well, there are no widespread playfield issues. We've only had 6-8 reports of playfield problems. Don't hesitate to buy a Stern game. If you have a problem contact your distributor".

I guess I would reply

"That is odd, I have reports in for Deadpool, Maiden, Beatles, and JP2. Very interesting that I am 50% of the reports and it has been on 100% of the games I have purchased in the past 18 months."

"My real world experiences do not match yours"

-10
#1898 57 days ago
Quoted from apinballwiz:

Very well said, bulls eye!

Great point!
“If a game is expensive, we automatically get to amend the warranty in our favour!”

This is the ridiculousness that is Pinside.
Stern (I believe?) has stated that they will review play fields on a case by case basis. But Pinsiders are upset that Stern hasn’t made a public announcement, over an issue that so far seems to be (in most of the cases) cosmetic, only?

I’m glad we could hash this out to nail down everyone’s expectations of Stern.
Seems reasonable.

#1899 57 days ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Unfortunately, when many people are rightfully pissed about being sold a knowingly defective product, it is sometimes hard to bottle that emotion.

I'm not going to get mad until my distributor gets back to me and says "Stern said to go pound sand". For now, I'm giving them time to figure out what went wrong and the best way to fix the issue. I honestly wouldn't want a new play field until they have resolved the issue anyway.

This is something that I'm not expecting to be resolved overnight. If I don't hear anything from my distributor in 30 days or so, I'll shoot them an email. For now, I'm going to play the hell out of my BM66 Catwoman with missing chunks out of the play field.

16
#1900 57 days ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

The other thing to consider is this: Pinsiders appear to consider pooling on par with global warming.

lol... The newer play field issues definitely make the machines untouchable, for me. I am surprised at all the debate about how bad or no big deal it is. For almost $6k I definitely expect the art and clear coat of the play field to not be sliding around. Seems self evident to me. Genuinely surprised at those that don’t see it that way. Also feel very stung at spending that amount of money and pulling a dud out of the box. Not in my arcade. Doesn’t do any good to argue about it, just wanted to increase awareness so nobody else is surprised with a NIB purchase as I was.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 45.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Pinball Mod Co.
$ 99.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Pinball Sales
$ 5,799.00
Pinball Machine
Operation Pinball
$ 18.95
From: $ 6.00
Playfield - Protection
Pin Monk
There are 3151 posts in this topic. You are on page 38 of 64.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside