Don't stand in front of the blame train... it respects no logic

That won’t do anything to fix this problem

See. There is already a washer Stern placed on the game.

5C640AC4-9776-46D5-9C7C-14C0C0C8E77D (resized).jpeg

I believe they are claiming deductive reasoning.

There are a lot of putz’s like myself that just bought a JPLE and ElviraLE

Didn’t take long for 400 LEs to be sold

I’ve bought several Stern pins over the years and despite the occasional mishap like the BM66 turntable I’ve been really happy and satisfied with what I’ve gotten

I guess people like myself believe the issue is in the past or not enough of one to make a difference

Those are the outright facts when LEs sell through like they did

And there’s plenty of evidence of cost cutting at stern. Power source, brackets, dmds, coil stops and metal parts in general, lockdown bar, knocker, service posts, wet wood, bare playfields... why on earth would they attempt to save money on the clear coat and art? Some ppl and their illogical assumptions, I tell ya.

Deduction leads to hypothesis... not assertions. It’s best to know what kind of ground one stands on.. less one puts all their credibility into the fire

I know this is a rip JJP and Stern thread but brackets are back on my Munsters and the overall quality feels MUCH better than IMDN. Weighs a good 40 pounds more.

Cost savings on dmd? I’m good with it, I’ll take the LCD all day every day

Service posts? Really? Not on my games

As for the pf’s it makes sense for Stern to bring that in house to control the production and efficiency.

Call me an optimist but Stern knows they have to fix and get the pf issue right, just like JJP, chipping isn’t acceptable

That, and the fact that Stern has made a change that so far, appears to have fixed the issue.

Deductive reasoning starts out as a general statement OR hypothesis and leads to an ultimate conclusion based on the evidence

Just sayin

I was referring to the crap led dmds that were misaligned and had squares that would burn out. Yes, brackets and service rails are back, but the history shows that they cost cut to below bottom and add back. It’s a common business practice, but that doesn’t mean we need to like it. There is clear evidence of cost cutting, so it’s not that much of a stretch to hypothesize that they attempted to cost cut pretty much the last thing they could.

I don’t give a shit about brands; I just care about quality for dollar spent. I’m not bashing stern. I’m questioning the quality of their current products, and, to clarify, I’m using INDUCTIVE reasoning, which means that evidence supports that the conclusion (or thesis) is likely to be true. It is not absolute.

They haven’t cut costs on artwork and hiring great artists in Franchi, Yeti and Freres. That speaks for itself

How about the cost of Elwin and other coders and talent hired to do animations?

The overall overhead has gone UP substantially since they moved into the new production facility. Spending more $$$, not cutting costs

If the “current quality” of JPLE and ElviraLE is as good as my Munsters then I’ll be more than happy

Bottom line, a whole lot of buyers agree with me. What conclusions can we draw from that?

And btw, I was correcting Flynn, as he loves to do to everybody else, on his statement re deductive reasoning leads to hypothesis. Not. Lol

If there’s hope with you Ice, there’s hope for us all. At least you’re still buying man!

Ditto, me too.

Selling LEs to those unaware of the issues—not meaning to say buying an LE is putzy.

If somebody doesn’t buy Rick then we all F ed!

Consider it taking one for the team?

Please show your evidence that cost cutting is a bad thing and is responsible for any of the current issues.

I feel like we may be talking past one another. Maybe let's start by defining the cost cutting that you think is bad? My factory experience is many improvements can speed a process, lowering the labor cost. This is almost never a bad thing. Maybe the expert performing the work points out the documentation says do A-B-C but if we did B-C-A we could save two minutes per assembly.

If your playfield supplier comes to you and says, "We have a new machine and can do small runs for the same price we used to have to run one hundred or more," of course you'll try that. You'll look at a few, maybe put them in machines in test locations.

Remember, this is happening to multiple manufacturers. It's highly unlikely there is some grand conspiracy to lower quality.

If I were a betting man my money would be on an unannounced change in the clear ingredients by the company that manufactures the clearcoat components.

Update (from page 5 I think).

So I got my IMDN about 3 months ago...well about a month to a month and a half ago I moved the left outlane post...now the clearcoat has started pooling around the new post spot. Boo. May be tough to tell in the picture. FYI my machine is in an air conditioned basement and doesn't see the sun.

A claim was submitted to Stern last week...we'll see what happens...

20190922_105612 (resized).jpg

I haven't been following all of this closely until recently. When you submit the claim what is it that you are asking Stern to do? Give you a new PF? I'm just curious.

Has anyone that has had pooling/ wrinkling (not cracking or chipping) been awarded a new playfield by Stern?

Like a super jackpot shot??

I will post when I hear what will be done with the 4 pros I have with the clear coat issues.

JWP72 I see nothing wrong in that pic.

Like was mentioned a few posts ago...what are you expecting Stern to do at this point? Some of this is getting a little out of control I feel.

Oh, you poor soul. Prepare for the wrath of the unreasonable mob!

Clear and art is rising up beyond edge of washer. If that continues, gets hit by ball or just from vibrations, it will crack, fall off and expose bare wood.

27 plays, 3 months, 3 years, that shouldn’t happen.

It’s called a defect. Depending on the product, consumers usually expect to be able to return an item, have repair done professionally at no charge, or get a partial refund. In pinball though, people apparently have various expectations ranging from rage to full support of the defective products

That long rumored Tron VE may not devalue existing Trons much if any at all if they ever release a VE. The older HUO Trons will always have a better PF (and possibly cabinet as well).

With me as well, but I guess that's the internet for ya.

I provided past examples (evidence) that supports the cost-cutting theory. I said that all good companies do this, but Stern has pushed the limits in the past. It is a theory that may be untrue, but it very well may be true. I should have also added that Stern's silence, unlike jjp, should draw concern from all those affected.

That was never my claim. My claim was that Stern wants to keep a balance between cost cutting and sales and has sucked in this area in the past and may be sucking in this area now. Hopefully not. Maybe it is just a manufacturing screw up. The silence from Stern is causing the guessing because it's all we have.

I can swing the pendulum your way: show your evidence that this isn't the cause? From what I've heard jjp sources their pfs from a different manufacturer...

So some LE buyers are claiming success.

What's the over and under about actually getting a good one? And odds with a lesser model like a premium or a pro.

One dealer told me that Stern has different standards for what’s considered a playfield defect indicating that they will approve action on an LE when they wouldn’t approve action on a similarly damaged Pro. But also said if the clear wasn’t cracked or cracking Stern wasn’t likely to do anything as they found not consider pooling a defect.

please do.

Took us month after month after month after month of sending more and more photos of how bad Beatles was (nevermind the fact that it is also on JP, BK3, Maiden; just not as bad as Beatles was). They finally agreed to send a new playfield blank about 6 weeks ago. We are now told we will get that pf in about 1 more month from now. I will update when it arrives.

It seems to me that Stern does not think it warrants any sort of fix (beyond washers on new games?) unless it continues to get worse over time and the bunching ends up cracking/chipping off art.

It also frankly took WAY too much effort to get a replacement.

I got the impression they hoped we would eventually just stop sending pictures and then they would forget about us.
NO customer should have to go through anything besides filing the very first report.

They really need to get on top of the pf issue. However, they also need to get on top of how they are shifting blame and treating their customers.

I can deal with and understand mistakes happen. It is how they deal with and treat the customer on the back in that really matters.

Hopefully you submitted better pics and alternate angles. Impossible to see the issue there.

If someone claims 'this' isn't the cause then you ask for evidence to support the claim. The only correct answer right now is we don't know the cause.
Using the coil stops and the playfield wood as examples you only know that they don't perform to your standards. You don't know why. Assigning a reason isn't warranted until you have good evidence to support it.

If Stern thinks a playfield needs washers under the posts, then the problem hasn’t been fixed. I also don’t see how any playfield with pooling won’t eventually chip and take art with it. I suspect we are going to see a rash of obviously damaged playfields in a couple years and far more unhappy owners than we have now.

Expo will give both Stern and JJP an opportunity to be straight forward with the community about the issue and how they intend to make sure playfield quality is solid going forward and how those with issues with sloppy playfields will be addressed. If they don’t volunteer, we need to press them with questions. We cannot sit back and accept their assertions that pooling is normal and that these playfields are not defective.

I'm predicting a very tense and awkward Stern talk at Expo where they cling to the narrative that there are very few machines affected, and those affected should talk to their distros. And that is all that will be said.

Not sure. I submitted through my distributor. I just want Stern to know about it more than anything so they can fix it.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/continued-playfield-issues-with-jjp-and-stern/page/5#post-5165915

I'm posting my pictures because this is literally the first pinball machine I've ever bought. And I shelled out $10,800 CAD for it. $8100 USD. I bought NIB because I thought "Hey it's new, there should/may only be a few mechanical issues. I can deal with that." But this is something I have no control over and I'm now watching the playfield creep up on a post I just moved, meaning the problem is currently on-going and getting worse. That doesn't seem right to me. Now I'm not here with my pitchfork like some people. I'm here to show what's going on and hopefully be part of the solution to the problem instead of whining about it. And I would like other people that are considering spending that kind of money to know that this is the quality of product you're getting.

Agreed. And then we follow up.

“We had some problems because of xyz and have changed production to do abc. For those with problem x, we will do y” is the absolute minimum we should hear. We deserve facts, not evasive non-answers that insult our intelligence and don’t do anything to restore confidence in the quality of the heart of every pinball machine. If Stern and JJP are smart and want to be seen caring about customer concerns they will bring it up before the Q&A sessions.

There is enough evidence in this thread alone that is not an isolated problem. Some distributors are seeing problem percentages in double digits. And those are only the games they see or know about. Maybe Stern use multiple sources and it’s only one source, but that doesn’t help if we can identify the source. If Stern believes it’s truly isolated then they shouldn’t have any problem telling us what their criteria is for replacement and what changes are being done to fix the root cause.

Talking to your distributor is fine to start the process but worthless without comment from Stern because it is Stern - not the distributor - that would provide the fix. Ask your distributor. I’ll bet they’ll tell you the same thing. “We’ll push for you, but it’s up to Stern. Stern believes the issue is fixed”. People may forget that the distributors may be the most impacted. They are the ones that actually buy the games from Stern. Imagine what they think when games on their showroom floor have pooling. We have the option not to buy new games. Their choice isn’t so easy.

**IF** the Pinsider quote below is accurate, it explains a lot. Now that Churchill/CGC has a healthy remake pinball biz, they are likely prioritizing themselves over Stern. So Stern figures, shit...let's do this in-house (and save $$ and have more control over production). Unfortunately, they apparently under estimated the expertise to manufacture their own PF's (and we are paying the price).

CGC PF's have been noticeably absent from this discussion, so the comment below does seem credible.

I'm not a Stern machine owner nor have I really kept up with every post in this thread, so forgive me for making any assumptions or being wrong.

I don't understand why the "fix" is to install washers under the posts, if the problem is in the clear coat and not the posts themselves. The washers will just create a larger diameter "pool"; you could install a 1" washer and you'd have a 1" wide pool, as evidenced by pictures of pooling around washers. Same goes for pulling the artwork away from the posts - is the problem caused by the artwork or the clear coat? Pulling the artwork away will just make the chipping, once it occurs, less noticeable since there won't be chipped artwork, just chipped clear coat.

I never planned to buy a NIB (after my first one from CGC), though I was tempted to get the new BK game, but now I've pretty much written off anything Stern has to offer. And JJP? Simply forget it. Seems like they embody, or are starting to embody, everything that is wrong with the pinball world.

Or maybe chipped playfields are just part of Stern's new "Lifestyle Brand"...

Good answer

And i wouldn't worry about your first Nib pinball purchase with the pictures you are showing. You are in a HUO environment. You'll be fine, enjoy your new game!

Here’s an image of washers to use as your pooling spreads out. Start with the smallest and work your way out. Problem solved

FFE7292C-35F4-48F8-A40E-2B8A4D9CC76F (resized).jpeg

There's no doubt the distributors are feeling the pinch in this situation. They try to go to bat for their customers with issues, however it's ultimately up to Stern or JJP do rectify the situation. The distributors are selling a product, with the understanding the manufacturer is providing a quality product to be sold. The distributor isn't the person making the games, so they can only do so much. It's got to be hard to sell a product with an issue, not knowing if the manufacturer is going to do anything about it. I'm also sure with the presence of these various pf issue threads, they are also feeling the loss of sales.

Wouldn't the solution for this to not be a bigger washer, but actually the opposite, a really small washer, much smaller than the star post just to get it off the playfield not touching the clear? It seems like the solution they took is the opposite that they should have done possibly. If you use a smaller washer, any pooling will be underneath the post and hidden, plus protected from chipping.

That would just be my opinion though, maybe it wouldn't work.

Not sure its related to the pooling chipping issue. But the CPR thread goes into detail about how stern have saved money on the wood that the poster believe was related to the increased cratering issues.

Neil.

Some people aren't worth the time he is grasping at straws that is why he said inductive reasoning and not deductive reasoning

I bought a wonka le a few weeks ago with some pooling around some of the posts(no chipping) . First thing i did when i got it home and set up was take sling post off and few other post on the lower half of the playfield. I used big washers under the posts and lightly tightened them and let it sit overnight. The next day i removed them and everything was relatively flat and back in place. From what i cld tell a combination of overtighteneing along with the inward pressure of the rubbers along with sling going off which created more inward pressure caused the art work to start bunching up. I went to Lowe's and found nylon and rubber washers that i added under those areas and didn't over tighten anything . So far after hundreds of plays everything has been ok and no pooling/movement has occurred and the playfield looks great with hardly any dimples and the clear looks very nice. Eventually ill probably order the nicer lookin clear titan silicone washers but I'm happy so far with everything. Resized_20190914_225022001_4665 (resized).jpegResized_20190914_224944001_1439 (resized).jpeg

Pardon my negativity, but that's ugly AF.

-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107

Lol.. u can't hardly c them once the game is back together... also im gonna get the clear silicone ones but this was just a quick run to lowes fix until i get others. Also i want a smaller size but that was all that was available locally. Looks alot better than your pooling and chipping wonka tho .... doesn't it....

When i get the correct size and in clear ill be sure to show u a pic.... looks much better than Metal ones and don't create issues like the metal and neapream ones can. I actually like the small nylon ones under the small post and may try find those for the star posts.

I was looking at the playfields on my 4 JJP games last night to see how each handled artwork around the sling posts. Both WOZ and Hobbit don't feature artwork around the entire sling area. This changed starting with Dialed In. However, I haven't heard of pooling occuring on Dialed In games.

Why not just go back to no artwork around the sling area like on WOZ and Hobbit? Problem solved. Why did JJP and Stern (GB is same way) go away from this design in the first place? Hobbit also doesn't feature artwork on pretty much all non sling posts as well. This design should just be standard on all games to reduce playfield issues.

20190922_201326 (resized).jpg

Problem may be less obvious with no art under posts but not sure that’s the same as “solved”.

The question is if there is pooling and the washers are on it will the artwork pull off when the post/washer is removed in the future.