(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

5 months ago



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#1451 4 months ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

It would be interesting to examine some of the affected playfields every five years or so to see if there are differences long term.

I agree, but not only in post areas. Some of the affected playfields (like my AC/DC Luci VE) dimpled like crazy, with some pretty deep dimples like in my playfield's case. If the art couldn't adhere to the playfield under the posts, what's going on at the bottom of a deep dimple? Seems like the art would stick to the clearcoat and pull away from the wood at the bottom of the dimple in some cases. That could get ugly down the road.

#1452 4 months ago

The no art around the post is not anything new, the older Sterns were like that. At some point they made the playfield full art and started drilling through it and that has been the problem.

#1453 4 months ago
Quoted from Raegor:

The no art around the post is not anything new, the older Sterns were like that. At some point they made the playfield full art and started drilling through it and that has been the problem.

Not only Stern. In example Medieval Madness has it, though there's more art 'under' the slingshot posts (there's no full ring around them), but on lots of spots (under the slingshot, at inlane and outlane-switches, posts, etc..) there's no art.

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#1454 4 months ago

So same clear but it will be tougher to notice around post? What about the rest of the playfield? Why do I have bad feeling someone invested big money in a new clear system and they don’t want to abandon it. I still don’t feel confident. Would be nice to actually hear what they are doing formula wise. I know...I know. Admitting guilt.

#1455 4 months ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

So same clear but it will be tougher to notice around post? What about the rest of the playfield? Why do I have bad feeling someone invested big money in a new clear system and they don’t want to abandon it. I still don’t feel confident. Would be nice to actually hear what they are doing formula wise. I know...I know. Admitting guilt.

I really don't think it's a clear issue, to me it has always looked like an adhesion between artwork and wood. Things that support that theory:

- Pictures of bubbling/pooling/ripples always show the artwork coming up with the clear
- Stern & Mirco(JJP) both having this issue, using a direct artwork digital print technique
- CGC not having the issue, and last I've seen is they still use screened printing

While I can't find the reference, I've also seen posted on here where Stern quit using CGC for the playfield printing about 18-24 months ago to do their own, and the timing of these issues starting around the same time.

All these point to the digital ink having some kind of adhesion issue from the digital process, probably due to the specific type of ink being used by these digital printers. That digital ink is probably not designed to such a high stress usage printed onto a surface that continues to contract & expand over it's life.

I do agree with you it would be nice to get some kind of confirmation of what actually did happen once the smoke clears (no pun intended)....

#1456 4 months ago
Quoted from AUKraut:

I really don't think it's a clear issue, to me it has always looked like an adhesion between artwork and wood. Things that support that theory:
- Pictures of bubbling/pooling/ripples always show the artwork coming up with the clear
- Stern & Mirco(JJP) both having this issue, using a direct artwork digital print technique
- CGC not having the issue, and last I've seen is they still use screened printing
While I can't find the reference, I've also seen posted on here where Stern quit using CGC for the playfield printing about 18-24 months ago to do their own, and the timing of these issues starting around the same time.
All these point to the digital ink having some kind of adhesion issue from the digital process, probably due to the specific type of ink being used by these digital printers. That digital ink is probably not designed to such a high stress usage printed onto a surface that continues to contract & expand over it's life.
I do agree with you it would be nice to get some kind of confirmation of what actually did happen once the smoke clears (no pun intended)....

It very well is an ink adhesion and clear issue. The clear is soft and you can put a nail in it. That’s not correct for clearcoat.

#1457 4 months ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

It very well is an ink adhesion and clear issue. The clear is soft and you can put a nail in it. That’s not correct for clearcoat.

I just wonder if the ink from the digital printing process IS what's causing some kind of chemical reaction causing the clear not to harden properly. Same chemical reaction is causing the artwork to lift off the wood. Just musing.

#1458 4 months ago
Quoted from Raegor:

The no art around the post is not anything new, the older Sterns were like that. At some point they made the playfield full art and started drilling through it and that has been the problem.

Yeah. I'm all for no artwork around posts going forward, less headaches to deal with later on. However, it's a bummer to lose artwork around posts, scoops, and saucers but I guess it's better then chipping / pooling. Still a shame that the art adhesion / clear issue isn't being resolved as that is the root issue.

#1459 4 months ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

So same clear but it will be tougher to notice around post? What about the rest of the playfield? Why do I have bad feeling someone invested big money in a new clear system and they don’t want to abandon it. I still don’t feel confident. Would be nice to actually hear what they are doing formula wise. I know...I know. Admitting guilt.

I think you are on the money here. I believe the playfield manufacturer has played with the clear formula to help reduce shooter lane chipping and chipping edges. Clear seems to be definitely softer than previous titles. The clear is definitely sticking to the artwork or else the artwork would not be lifting off when the clear chips. Adding to the issue, I think the clear is too thick with not enough time to cure in between coats.

#1460 4 months ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

Why do I have bad feeling someone invested big money in a new clear system and they don’t want to abandon it.

Occam's razor says the simplest explanation is most likely to be the correct one. Playfields are probably done in batches. A batch of playfields could have been bad for whatever reason (incorrect mix, incorrect application, who knows?) Why can't it be that the batch was bad, which might explain why the problem isn't on everyone's game? Never attribute to malice (or cost-cutting) that which is adequately explained by stupidity. (Hanlon's razor)

#1461 4 months ago

Pulling the art back from the posts is a step in the right direction but seriously doubt it will fully solve the problem. The clear is obviously not sufficiently cured / hardened and is easily damaged when the posts are tightened down or move laterally due to ball strikes or pressure from the rubbers. The art may be adhering more to the clear than the wood but the soft clear is the underlying issue. I haven't seen any examples of art lifting where the clear wasn't pooled. I worked for a company that made high end adhesives for bonding metal to metal. Believe it or not the metal would rip apart before the adhesive joint failed, but that didn't mean the metal was defective. I'd be very surprised if Stern doesn't also change the clear formulation and/or application process.

#1462 4 months ago

I have a Munsters Premium with no art under the posts and bubbling in other places, so not sure changing the art is enough on its own.

Would like to agree with the Occam's Razor post, but this wasn't just one batch given how many machines it is affecting besides JP2. Not saying malice or cost-cutting was involved either though!

Glad to see that JP2 might be in good shape but I still need to hear from Stern about what happened and why it won't happen again before buying NIB. Just IMO.

28
#1463 4 months ago

I just received my Jurassic Park LE with the new Playfield fixes. Very happy. Think it’s goung to last forever.

C082DE93-E24B-41B9-B8A7-F515A4A33037 (resized).jpeg
#1464 4 months ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

...chemical reaction is causing the artwork to lift off the wood.

Not necessarily. Something has to give way first. If the ink, regardless of whether it’s printed or silkscreened, sticks less to the wood than it does the clear, it’s going to lift up with the clear. It doesn’t mean you used the wrong ink or the wrong process of applying it.

I don’t profess to know anything about manufacturing a playfield, but I’m more inclined to believe that the real issue is with the clear. I shouldn’t be able to make a mark in the playfield with my finger nail. Period.

Really, artwork coming off the wood with the bubbling clear is no more surprising to me than being able to use a piece of silly putty to lift some of the ink up off of a Sunday comic strip in the newspaper. In this case, the ink’s adhesion to the clear is strong enough that, in some cases, all of it, rather than part, is coming up. And, depending on the properties of the wood, it shouldn’t be too surprising to see some of it splintering off with the clear as well. The path of least resistance is always going to win.

I don’t think removing the artwork from parts of the playfield solves anything... other than the manufacturer hoping bubbling and chipping clear might be less noticeable to the buyer when it’s happening over plain wood versus seeing it over artwork and having parts of that artwork coming up off of the playfield.

22
#1465 4 months ago

I am out on nib till spring 2020. I want to wait and see how JP premium holds up and Elvira playfields. Patience is key. So many here have to have the newest title ASAP. No wonder these companies make their own rules.

#1466 4 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

I just received my Jurassic Park LE with the new Playfield fixes. Very happy. Think it’s goung to last forever.[quoted image]

Doesnt look to bad. Maintainance should be doable, and exactly as many interactive toys as the pro version.

#1467 4 months ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

I am out on nib till spring 2020. I want to wait and see how JP premium holds up and Elvira playfields. Patience is key. So many here have to have the newest title ASAP. No wonder these companies make their own rules.

Agreed.

#1468 4 months ago
Quoted from luckymoey:

Pulling the art back from the posts is a step in the right direction but seriously doubt it will fully solve the problem. The clear is obviously not sufficiently cured / hardened and is easily damaged when the posts are tightened down or move laterally due to ball strikes or pressure from the rubbers. The art may be adhering more to the clear than the wood but the soft clear is the underlying issue. I haven't seen any examples of art lifting where the clear wasn't pooled. I worked for a company that made high end adhesives for bonding metal to metal. Believe it or not the metal would rip apart before the adhesive joint failed, but that didn't mean the metal was defective. I'd be very surprised if Stern doesn't also change the clear formulation and/or application process.

All the art that I’ve seen lifted on DP playfields, included my own, had no evidence of pooling. The art simply peeled up from areas around ball guides.

I’m no expert by any stretch when it comes to these things, but the issue appears to be art adhering to the playfield. I’m not sure if it’s an issue with the clear, a problem with the print process, etc.

#1469 4 months ago
Quoted from BeaglePuss:

All the art that I’ve seen lifted on DP playfields, included my own, had no evidence of pooling.

Do you have pics?

#1470 4 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

I just received my Jurassic Park LE with the new Playfield fixes. Very happy. Think it’s goung to last forever.[quoted image]

Haha!

Look at the flow! This is going to be the fastest game ever. Buttery smooth orbits too. I'm so glad Stern doesn't overload their games which only slows them down.

16
#1471 4 months ago
Quoted from luckymoey:

Pulling the art back from the posts is a step in the right direction but seriously doubt it will fully solve the problem. The clear is obviously not sufficiently cured / hardened and is easily damaged when the posts are tightened down or move laterally due to ball strikes or pressure from the rubbers. The art may be adhering more to the clear than the wood but the soft clear is the underlying issue. I haven't seen any examples of art lifting where the clear wasn't pooled. I worked for a company that made high end adhesives for bonding metal to metal. Believe it or not the metal would rip apart before the adhesive joint failed, but that didn't mean the metal was defective. I'd be very surprised if Stern doesn't also change the clear formulation and/or application process.

My personal opinion...

I have many games with this issue on route so I have seen multiple examples over the past few years ranging from minimal to VERY bad.
This issue is on Beatles, Maiden, JP2 most predominantly, but I have seen it on all title from Stern fro the past 4 years; just seemingly worse for the last 1.5 years.

I think it is important to note that "pooling" (e.g. clear still in liquid form resting into a puddle) is not really what is going on. Bunching may be a better term for this. The appearance looks like pooled areas but is is actually hollow but thick raised bunching where art and clear layer have lifted off the playfield while still in non-cured state.

I think the underlying issue is adhesion to the wood. This appears to be a chemical AND physical lack of adhesion.
This could be due to:
-the wood being used
-how the wood has been treated or prepped (or lack of prep)
-the ink being used or the timing between layers (no longer silk screened which means all one layer with reduced work time but also less total dry time?)
-the clear being used or the timing between layers
-the posts are differnet than they used to be and pressure is being displaced differently/ not spread as evenly as old posts do

I personally think it is a COMBINATION of root causes.
We know the wood is softer and different now than even a few years ago.
We have seen examples of poor wood prep and more dust which indicates technique and concern for wood prep before ink has decreased
We know ink is different chemically and now being layed down in one go (or one session of mutliple passes) compared to previous silkscreen process
We know time is being cut in every way possible so less cure time
We know clear coat chemicals continue to change and we can assume that they are given less time to cure off between coats
We know the whole process seems rushed and the game has changed to more titles and more often which means you have to assemble without cure off or as long.

I think the symptom is seen at posts and most quickly at sling posts because of the impact and abuse they take.
I think the clear is bonding pretty well to the ink layer (hence why ink and clear are lifting together). This tells me that clear is not given enough time to cure between layers so it is still pliable at assembly time. This tells me that ink is bonded more to clear than to wood.

The initial "solution" of adding washers under posts (e.g. JP2) was just attempting to displace pressure over a bigger area and hid the issue. This is the first visible acknowledgement that Stern knows they have an issue.

The new "solution" of moving art off of posts appears to only be a bandaid to hide the lack of finding a root cause. They have removed the ink adhesion issue from under posts and now we will get a chance to see if this helps remove the symptom (but still not the cause). I view this as a way for them to buy time or they are opting to just remove the visible symptom and moving on with life?? (I hope not but maybe the case). I will note that there are already examples on previous games where posts without art under them still have bunching, but the clear seems to be holding better than over art.

This is a multifacted issue and likely no one silver bullet to fix this.

I sure hope they can get it under control.

It is a very tough problem with likely MANY subcontractors, many moving parts in the manufacturing process, and also a very tough chemical and physical engineering problem to really get to the root cause and then solve (plus put in verification steps to make sure it does not go back to bad once fixed).

I think communication is always key in these matters and the company that comes out to more openly talk about it and the solutions being put in place will likely win the longer term loyalty of the customer base.

#1472 4 months ago

We know that Stern has removed the art under posts on newly built Jurassic Parks, but does anybody know if they've also done this in areas under ball guides?

We've seen the art and clear blistering/bunching/pooling/chipping under ball guides as well as posts, so I'm just wondering if they addressed the ball guide issue. My AC/DC Luci VE has blistering under a few posts as well as 2 ball guides (that I can see), so I'd like to know if they've tried to correct the issue with both posts and guides.

#1473 4 months ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

It is a very tough problem with likely MANY subcontractors, many moving parts in the manufacturing process, and also a very tough chemical and physical engineering problem to really get to the root cause and then solve (plus put in verification steps to make sure it does not go back to bad once fixed).
I think communication is always key in these matters and the company that comes out to more openly talk about it and the solutions being put in place will likely win the longer term loyalty of the customer base.

Great post, but I'm skeptical it's "a very tough problem" from an R&D perspective. Why? For many years, most of these problems didn't exist. Sure, the chemicals and process have changed, but it should be *really easy* for folks closest to this manufacturing process to figure out what variables have changed. It's highly likely folks doing this work have seen the process "evolve" over the past decade (minimally).

As you also point out, the process is likely rushed since game production is up and PF manufacturers are likely down (though we don't have much visibility into this). Combine this with rising cost of production and (likely) stagnant profit margin for the PF manufacturer. When Stern raises prices, I'd imagine they aren't handing over more $$ to the PF manufacturers. If PF profit margins aren't improving, they look for ways to cut cost out of the product.

#1474 4 months ago
Quoted from Rum-Z:

We know that Stern has removed the art under posts on newly built Jurassic Parks, but does anybody know if they've also done this in areas under ball guides?
We've seen the art and clear blistering/bunching/pooling/chipping under ball guides as well as posts, so I'm just wondering if they addressed the ball guide issue. My AC/DC Luci VE has blistering under a few posts as well as 2 ball guides (that I can see), so I'd like to know if they've tried to correct the issue with both posts and guides.

There is a pic in the thread that shows all posts, even under the ball guides, now have no artwork under them. Just check thru the topic gallery.

#1475 4 months ago
Quoted from Rum-Z:

We know that Stern has removed the art under posts on newly built Jurassic Parks, but does anybody know if they've also done this in areas under ball guides?
We've seen the art and clear blistering/bunching/pooling/chipping under ball guides as well as posts, so I'm just wondering if they addressed the ball guide issue. My AC/DC Luci VE has blistering under a few posts as well as 2 ball guides (that I can see), so I'd like to know if they've tried to correct the issue with both posts and guides.

Don't assume that the pros are fixed yet - I got mine last week apparently fresh stock, with art under posts, and pretty much every post has at least some lifting around it.

Contacted my distributor, we'll see what Stern does.

#1476 4 months ago
Quoted from AUKraut:

There is a pic in the thread that shows all posts, even under the ball guides, now have no artwork under them. Just check thru the topic gallery.

On mine the ball guide has much worse lifting than around the posts, most have rings, but the ball guide has a rather large blob lifting (on both sides of the guide)

1.jpg

#1477 4 months ago
Quoted from libtech:

Don't assume that the pros are fixed yet - I got mine last week apparently fresh stock, with art under posts, and pretty much every post has some issue.
Contacted my distributor, we'll see what Stern does.

What's your build date?

#1478 4 months ago
Quoted from libtech:

Don't assume that the pros are fixed yet - I got mine last week apparently fresh stock, with art under posts, and pretty much every post has at least some lifting around it.
Contacted my distributor, we'll see what Stern does.

What is your build date???

#1479 4 months ago

I'll take a look tonight

#1480 4 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Great post, but I'm skeptical it's "a very tough problem" from an R&D perspective. Why?

Thanks. I personally think it is difficult as there are lots of people, companies, etc... involved.
In my experience that can make even simple problems tough. It allows lots of blame shifting between them rather than accountability.

Every step has questions, possible root casues, and possible changes (many may not be divulged)
-Where does the wood come from/ what has changed?
-ink chemical changes?
-pf prep changes?
-clear chemical or application changes?

There is even a chance that this could all come down to a very simple thing which could easily be overlooked because a subcontractor does not even think of it as a change. For example "well yeah we put a new nozzle on our automatic clear coat robot, but all that did was change the spray pattern for better coverage in fewer passes" This could in effect change density of product which would impact the need for longer cure time between coats.

Sometimes these imperceptibly small changes can have huge down stream impacts.

Just a guess, but quite possible that you have a variety of wood providers to the pf cutting company. That pf cutting company has a variety of people handling the blanks differently on different machines. The printed has lots of automation and more each day and some ink colors may change chemical composition without them even knowing as they may come from lots of different supplies. same with basically every step of the process and we are dealing with wood, ink, clear, and assembly at minimum.

Even if the ink and clear are one subcontractor, then they have likely multiple sources for base ink and clear (or accelerators, etc...)

TLDR >> lots of possibilities for change that happened without people even realizing it and now you have to pick apart everything to get it fixed.

On the flip side, it can be easy to just restart and walk the process... but the time and cost associate with it can be huge.

13
#1481 4 months ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Thanks. I personally think it is difficult as there are lots of people, companies, etc... involved.
In my experience that can make even simple problems tough. It allows lots of blame shifting between them rather than accountability.
Every step has questions, possible root casues, and possible changes (many may not be divulged)
-Where does the wood come from/ what has changed?
-ink chemical changes?
-pf prep changes?
-clear chemical or application changes?
There is even a chance that this could all come down to a very simple thing which could easily be overlooked because a subcontractor does not even think of it as a change. For example "well yeah we put a new nozzle on our automatic clear coat robot, but all that did was change the spray pattern for better coverage in fewer passes" This could in effect change density of product which would impact the need for longer cure time between coats.
Sometimes these imperceptibly small changes can have huge down stream impacts.
Just a guess, but quite possible that you have a variety of wood providers to the pf cutting company. That pf cutting company has a variety of people handling the blanks differently on different machines. The printed has lots of automation and more each day and some ink colors may change chemical composition without them even knowing as they may come from lots of different supplies. same with basically every step of the process and we are dealing with wood, ink, clear, and assembly at minimum.
Even if the ink and clear are one subcontractor, then they have likely multiple sources for base ink and clear (or accelerators, etc...)
TLDR >> lots of possibilities for change that happened without people even realizing it and now you have to pick apart everything to get it fixed.
On the flip side, it can be easy to just restart and walk the process... but the time and cost associate with it can be huge.

Easy remedy. Don’t buy nib.

#1482 4 months ago
Quoted from libtech:

On mine the ball guide has much worse lifting than around the posts, most have rings, but the ball guide has a rather large blob lifting (on both sides of the guide)
[quoted image]

This is exactly how my SW Premium (build date 5/2019) looks.

Not sure why Stern even went back to putting art under the slings, they didn't do it for Munsters.

#1483 4 months ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

Easy remedy. Don’t buy nib.

yeah, I agree.

This is also the ONLY sure fire way to influence any company to find the real root cause and make the change.
If the buyers speak by no longer buying AND reach out to your distributor AND Stern directly to let them know why you are not buying, then they will change/fix it and respond.

#1484 4 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

I just received my Jurassic Park LE with the new Playfield fixes. Very happy. Think it’s goung to last forever.[quoted image]

UNTIL IT DIMPLES!!

LMAO. Funny shit man.

#1485 4 months ago

If anyone who has reported these issues to Stern in recent weeks gets anything other than radio silence (like I have) please share it here.

12
#1486 4 months ago
Quoted from Spelunk71:

If anyone who has reported these issues to Stern in recent weeks gets anything other than radio silence (like I have) please share it here.

Nothing, I think my Distro is avoiding me at the moment and a couple of other owners here in NZ.

Sterns sales must have taken a big hit in the last month with these playfield issues, when has there ever been "leaked" pictures of the next game before even LEs have been made and delivered of a current title.?

I know of 4 or more sales lost here with this clear coat issue so far.

#1487 4 months ago

Crickets for my case...

#1488 4 months ago
Quoted from Spelunk71:

If anyone who has reported these issues to Stern in recent weeks gets anything other than radio silence (like I have) please share it here.

Stern broke radio silence with leaking the Elvira game .... they figured what better way to stop the playfield talks then a new game and people are lining up for it!

#1489 4 months ago
Quoted from meSz:

Stern broke radio silence with leaking the Elvira game .... they figured what better way to stop the playfield talks then a new game and people are lining up for it!

It’s insulting really.

#1490 4 months ago
Quoted from meSz:

Stern broke radio silence with leaking the Elvira game .... they figured what better way to stop the playfield talks then a new game and people are lining up for it!

Quoted from jp1985:

It’s insulting really.

You guys are assuming that the Stern leak was intentional?
If it was, then why wouldn’t they just announce the next game?
I don’t follow your logic. Seems like a case of assuming the worst, without having any real information.

#1491 4 months ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

You guys are assuming that the Stern leak was intentional?
If it was, then why wouldn’t they just announce the next game?
I don’t follow your logic. Seems like a case of assuming the worst, without having any real information.

actually my post was more sarcastic then anything else. I am not one that has insider info or anything else like a lot of people claim. The fact that they have a trailer for the machine points more to a leak not being the case.

As someone that is looking to add BM66, IM, Munsters and maybe Black Knight I am just taken back by the lack of ownership Stern takes with the pf issues. With Sterns current stance I am looking for my next pin to be Wonka or GnR as if I have issues I know Jack will back it up. Might take a little time, understandably, but he has proven to me that he will take care of his customers.

#1492 4 months ago

dup

#1493 4 months ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Thanks. I personally think it is difficult as there are lots of people, companies, etc... involved.
In my experience that can make even simple problems tough. It allows lots of blame shifting between them rather than accountability.
Every step has questions, possible root casues, and possible changes (many may not be divulged)
-Where does the wood come from/ what has changed?
-ink chemical changes?
-pf prep changes?
-clear chemical or application changes?
There is even a chance that this could all come down to a very simple thing which could easily be overlooked because a subcontractor does not even think of it as a change. For example "well yeah we put a new nozzle on our automatic clear coat robot, but all that did was change the spray pattern for better coverage in fewer passes" This could in effect change density of product which would impact the need for longer cure time between coats.
Sometimes these imperceptibly small changes can have huge down stream impacts.
Just a guess, but quite possible that you have a variety of wood providers to the pf cutting company. That pf cutting company has a variety of people handling the blanks differently on different machines. The printed has lots of automation and more each day and some ink colors may change chemical composition without them even knowing as they may come from lots of different supplies. same with basically every step of the process and we are dealing with wood, ink, clear, and assembly at minimum.
Even if the ink and clear are one subcontractor, then they have likely multiple sources for base ink and clear (or accelerators, etc...)
TLDR >> lots of possibilities for change that happened without people even realizing it and now you have to pick apart everything to get it fixed.
On the flip side, it can be easy to just restart and walk the process... but the time and cost associate with it can be huge.

Sure...your analysis is all "good", but consider this:

When CPR sells it's PF's (I've owned a few over the years), it "grades" them as Bronze/Silver/Gold (and prices them accordingly). Love this scrutiny over their manufacturing process!

When Stern get's a PF from it's supplier, many NIB defects show up fairly quickly during manufacturing. In an ideal world, Stern would stop production and send the defective PF back to the supplier. The reason they don't is time-to-market...they need to ship these games to earn revenue. So...the PF manufacturer isn't "punished" for the crappy job.

I recently built a house from a very large "production" builder that allocates ~5 months to build a pretty substantial home (which is really fast...should take 9 months IMHO). A simple example/issue is poorly installed sheet rock that isn't level. We had some fancy tile installed over the misshapen wall that was a joke. You ask yourself why a tile installer would install expensive tile over a wavy wall? (which obviously impacted the aesthetics of the tile installation). The answer is everyone is on a schedule and there aren't enough foreman to check everyone's work. Even if the foreman noticed the issue, chances are he would let it go since he/she is graded on completing the home in 5 months! (INDEPENDENT OF QUALITY). "Quality" is someone else's job Builders simply hope you don't notice the lousy work. After I purchased my home, I had 9 months of fixes (almost all can be traced back to inadequate time to do the right job). I spoke with many of the sub-contractors who were often very blunt about the pressures they are under.

Unfortunately, manufacturing in this country isn't as respected as it use to be. Sad.

#1494 4 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

CPR sells it's PF's

How are CPR's new digital print PF's holding up?

15
#1495 4 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Sure...your analysis is all "good", but consider this:
When CPR sells it's PF's (I've owned a few over the years), it "grades" them as Bronze/Silver/Gold (and prices them accordingly). Love this scrutiny over their manufacturing process!
When Stern get's a PF from it's supplier, many NIB defects show up fairly quickly during manufacturing. In an ideal world, Stern would stop production and send the defective PF back to the supplier. The reason they don't is time-to-market...they need to ship these games to earn revenue. So...the PF manufacturer isn't "punished" for the crappy job.
I recently built a house from a very large "production" builder that allocates ~5 months to build a pretty substantial home (which is really fast...should take 9 months IMHO). A simple example/issue is poorly installed sheet rock that isn't level. We had some fancy tile installed over the misshapen wall that was a joke. You ask yourself why a tile installer would install expensive tile over a wavy wall? (which obviously impacted the aesthetics of the tile installation). The answer is everyone is on a schedule and there aren't enough foreman to check everyone's work. Even if the foreman noticed the issue, chances are he would let it go since he/she is graded on completing the home in 5 months! (INDEPENDENT OF QUALITY). "Quality" is someone else's job Builders simply hope you don't notice the lousy work. After I purchased my home, I had 9 months of fixes (almost all can be traced back to inadequate time to do the right job). I spoke with many of the sub-contractors who were often very blunt about the pressures they are under.
Unfortunately, manufacturing in this country isn't as respected as it use to be. Sad.

Stern started using temp workers in 2007-2008 to build product on the lines. IJ and up iirc. Machines came out pretty good despite some hiccups in assembly.

Issues we are seeing now are due to newer tech ( cc and pf printing) but also from cost cutting or I should say time cutting along with cost. Examples: node boards. Cost and time cutting. Less wiring and (supposedly) improved repair time. Worked out poorly.

Cabinet retainers. Pure cost. Splitting wood. Pure cost. Worked out poorly.

Heavier dimpling quicker on pf’s. Wood not being aged correctly along with different suppliers. Worked out poorly.

Now art and pf wear nib? Seriously?

Short term viability at long term cost. I wouldn’t buy ANY nib at 1/2 cost today.

#1496 4 months ago
Quoted from meSz:

With Sterns current stance I am looking for my next pin to be Wonka or GnR as if I have issues I know Jack will back it up. Might take a little time, understandably, but he has proven to me that he will take care of his customers.

Well it’s great to hear the JJP is fixing their issues. Last I heard, they were charging $500 for an unpopulated playfield as the “fix”. Not sure what else they can afford to do but this doesn’t seem like a solution that I’d be pleased with, personally.
For Stern, fingers are crossed they’ve got this figured out and put behind them. Curious to hear if/how they’ll help any buyers who have issues.
Sucks for everybody, no exceptions.

-2
#1497 4 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Sure...your analysis is all "good", but consider this:
When CPR sells it's PF's (I've owned a few over the years), it "grades" them as Bronze/Silver/Gold (and prices them accordingly). Love this scrutiny over their manufacturing process!

I recently built a house from a very large "production" builder that allocates ~5 months to build a pretty substantial home (which is really fast...should take 9 months IMHO).

People complain about CPR grading all the time. The "scrutiny" is almost non existent.
What, if any, knowledge of construction timing do you have to determine it should take nine months? I'm guessing none.

#1498 4 months ago
Quoted from Faustria:

People complain about CPR grading all the time. The "scrutiny" is almost non existent.
What, if any, knowledge of construction timing do you have to determine it should take nine months? I'm guessing none.

Your assertion about CPR scrutiny isn't my experience, but my CPR PF's are 8-10 years old. Maybe things have changed...

I've built many homes over the years in many different states. The work was done by professionals that I've contracted. I've also known & interviewed many builders, construction companies, and sub-contractors. So, to answer your question, my knowledge is from the consumers perspective. Same thing for my knowledge & observation of pinball construction over the past 15 years. I don't have to physically build a home or pinball machines to have insights on what I've received, witnessed and learned. How many homes have you built?

Production builders bang these homes out at record speeds and hire the least expensive workers to accomplish the job. From my limited experience of building/buying, the time-to-market demands on large scale "production" construction are considerable. Quality is an afterthought for most production builders and I've seen them take enormous advantage of folks that aren't in a position to fight for fixing warranty issues.

#1499 4 months ago
Quoted from meSz:

With Sterns current stance I am looking for my next pin to be Wonka or GnR as if I have issues I know Jack will back it up. Might take a little time, understandably, but he has proven to me that he will take care of his customers.

??? you're kidding, correct?

#1500 4 months ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Well it’s great to hear the JJP is fixing their issues. Last I heard, they were charging $500 for an unpopulated playfield as the “fix”. Not sure what else they can afford to do but this doesn’t seem like a solution that I’d be pleased with, personally.
For Stern, fingers are crossed they’ve got this figured out and put behind them. Curious to hear if/how they’ll help any buyers who have issues.
Sucks for everybody, no exceptions.

From what I read JJP originally offered new pf for 550$ and then changed it to free pf. People that had already paid the 550$ were contacted and given refunds.

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