(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

60 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 2,706 posts
  • 363 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 hours ago by Durzel
  • Topic is favorited by 97 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 313 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

20191018_202159 (1) (resized).jpg
20191018_202129 (resized).jpg
thumbnail_image1 (resized).jpg
DAA46D17-AE44-4183-BF0E-4F9767AF5FAE (resized).jpeg
49034223-F435-4882-9980-BE445297ACB0 (resized).jpeg
59284194583__8E45E493-CC92-4645-BEF4-B9622AEB4433 (resized).JPG
Screenshot_20191013-110702 (resized).png
20191011_124130.jpg
pasted_image (resized).png
5188226D-D073-4C10-86EE-CF925433A9C9 (resized).jpeg
tenor.gif
20191009_201145 (resized).jpg
20191009_201200 (resized).jpg
pasted_image (resized).png
Unknown (resized).jpg
dollar.gif

There are 2706 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 55.
#101 60 days ago
Quoted from ultimategameroom:

Calling HEP and Kruzman...
Im curious to hear what some of the experts opinions are on these issues.

HEP has already commented in another thread I believe.

#102 60 days ago
Quoted from woody76:

HEP has already commented in another thread I believe.

Yup.

#104 60 days ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

There are pins being made today though that do not have this issue, which makes this all the more aggravating. Where are the PFs coming from for the pins that don't have the issue?

How do we know how long each playfield has been given to cure? ... Some playfields getting more time "on the shelf" than others might be an explanatiin for this?

#105 60 days ago
Quoted from desertT1:

Stern seems to have a much higher rate of acceptable playfields. They also have a history of sending out replacements to those affected by poor quality playfields that were in customers' games. I would feel comfortable buying a Stern at this point.
JJP has offered half price playfields to customers that have had issues. These playfields often fail the thumbnail tests and are basically no different than the failed playfields in the games. I would not feel comfortable buying at JJP game NIB or used from recent titles because of this.
Both companies make really appealing games, but I have to consider many things when looking at games to get.

Depends whom you ask. I seem to notice opposite.

#106 60 days ago

Posted this in the WW thread also ...

I had bad pooling of soft clear on my Maiden LE but stern wouldn't replace it until I removed one post and it lifted with the post. It took forever, they finally replaced it but the replacement had a new issue that stern quickly responded that they will replace a second time. I will have to wait for another run again so it will be a while. This support made me comfy enough to order a JP2 LE but if pooling on the pro is being reported I really don't want to deal with this crap again.

#107 60 days ago

New JP2 on route, washers no bubbling.

jpf1 (resized).jpgjpf2 (resized).jpg
#108 60 days ago

Thanks Odin !

Pretty sad if someone plans on keeping a new machine for a long time that they should probably buy an additional playfied and have chris or another expert touch up and reclear it to have on hand when/if the original peels,chips and bubbles.

#109 60 days ago
Quoted from RobertWinter:

It's definitely happening with Munsters. Pictures from some of the problem areas on my Munsters Pro below. These issues were present immediately after unboxing.
I have also seen in-person similar bubbling/lifting on other Munsters Pros and LEs so mine is not an isolated case.
No chipping yet. Fingers crossed. Hesitant to move my outlane posts for fear of chipping/new bubbling.
I personally think it comes down to an ink/wood adhesion issue, not a clearcoat issue. Maybe a clearcoat over artwork reaction. There's no artwork under the sling posts on Munsters and the clear is not lifting under those. And if you take a close look at the outlane posts, it only seems to be lifting where there is artwork, not where there's only wood with clear over it.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

My brand new Iron Maiden Pro manufactured in June 2019 has the exact same issues. No chipping yet but I only have around 500 plays on it. I only have a picture of the star post right now but the same thing is happening in other areas of play field. Basically anywhere there is a post/contact with the table. Stern for sure has not fixed the issue unless it has been corrected within the past two months. I have opened a case with my distributor so I'll find out what Stern has to say in about a week. If it doesn't chip I can live with it. If it starts chipping I think it becomes unacceptable.

image1 (resized).jpeg
#110 60 days ago
Quoted from BOBCADE:

Posted this in the WW thread also ...
I had bad pooling of soft clear on my Maiden LE but stern wouldn't replace it until I removed one post and it lifted with the post. It took forever, they finally replaced it but the replacement had a new issue that stern quickly responded that they will replace a second time. I will have to wait for another run again so it will be a while. This support made me comfy enough to order a JP2 LE but if pooling on the pro is being reported I really don't want to deal with this crap again.

I always had good luck with Stern fixing major issues.

#111 60 days ago
Quoted from jellikit:

New JP2 on route, washers no bubbling.[quoted image][quoted image]

WHy is the lane guide metal so shitty? Goddamn shitty metal now too Stern?!! I kid.

#112 60 days ago
Quoted from ultimategameroom:

Thanks Odin !

Pretty sad if someone plans on keeping a new machine for a long time that they should probably buy an additional playfied and have chris or another expert touch up and reclear it to have on hand when/if the original peels,chips and bubbles.

No worries here. I just look at that slick No Fear playfield in the one I just picked up and realize I will never, ever need a spare. I'd rather just play games than worry or deal with any of this.

#113 60 days ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

WHy is the lane guide metal so shitty? Goddamn shitty metal now too Stern?!! I kid.

On a game-related note, it plays great.

#114 60 days ago
Quoted from jellikit:

New JP2 on route, washers no bubbling.[quoted image][quoted image]

I doubt the washers will prevent the pooling/bubbling. It might make it take longer but I think it will still happen. I have bubbling on posts that have washers installed on my Iron Maiden Pro.

#115 60 days ago
Quoted from Vinnie:

I doubt the washers will prevent the pooling/bubbling. It might make it take longer but I think it will still happen. I have bubbling on posts that have washers installed on my Iron Maiden Pro.

I,ll take it a step further and say these manufacturers are only putting down those ugly washers because they are well aware of the pooling. Trying to hide the problem long enough to get out of warranty maybe. Give me a break. I,m going to get my pitchfork......

#116 60 days ago
Quoted from Darscot:

Yeah I don't expect used items to be in new condition, I also don't buy collector quality pins. If I wanted that level of quality I would buy NIB. When it comes to price and inspection, as a seller or a buyer there is an offer and the seller accepts it or he doesn't. I don't do the whole nickel and dime over every little thing.

I have bought many HUO collector quality pins because there was no guarantee I would get one from the factory when purchasing NIB.

#117 60 days ago

One way to check on a curing issue would be to check the LE models.....is the chipping only on the lower number LE's or throughout the entire production run? My Munsters LE is 492 of 600 and there are no issues currently with chipping, pooling of the posts or anything described in these threads. I'll consider myself lucky. Anyone else able to check their LE's for chipping, pooling, etc? Please post your LE number too.

#118 60 days ago
Quoted from Chicoman:

One way to check on a curing issue would be to check the LE models.....is the chipping only on the lower number LE's or throughout the entire production run? My Munsters LE is 492 of 600 and there are no issues currently with chipping, pooling of the posts or anything described in these threads. I'll consider myself lucky. Anyone else able to check their LE's for chipping, pooling, etc? Please post your LE number too.

Pros are first aren't they? ... so stands to reason the new JP2 pro they are just catapaulting them out the door 6 months before they should be, and the green clearcoat is just squishing everywhere. "Who cares" they probably mumble, "they're only Pro's" .... and call it "good enough".

#119 60 days ago
Quoted from DennisDodel:

There is a myth that old glass window panes are thicker at the bottom because of the glass "flowing" to the bottom over the decades. Not true but I wonder if this is a possibility with clear coated playfields. Will gravity cause the clear coat to slowly pool downward until it hardens?

It depends. I can see that happening but would need a combination of a couple of things.

With coatings, if you are dip coating and then hang drying then yeah, pooling is an issue. Can be mitigated (not eliminated) with proper masking.

Same thing can happen with spray or other coating techniques and laying flat to dry/cure, but in my experience the biggest potential for problems is with dip and hanging.

There are so many variables when coating an object that it can quickly become an art over a science. 6 sigma can’t save you here. Drives manufacturing engineers nuts.

Without knowing the process they are using exactly, (coating product, coating application type, age of mixed product before applying, cure cycle, application room temperature / humidity, etc...) all I can do is shrug and say maybe.

Another comment: no such thing as a “fully cured” coating. Only a “cured enough” coating. From what has been stated here some people are witnessing products that had an insufficient cure. To me, that suggests that the manufacturer applying the coating has been too aggressive in optimizing their cure cycles and haven’t adequately captured the tails of the distribution curve.

For example, I could give you a butter coating today and a diamond coating next century. The sweet spot is somewhere in between.

Old saying where I used to work: Cost, delivery, quality. Pick two.

#120 60 days ago
Quoted from Oaken:

It depends. I can see that happening but would need a combination of a couple of things.
With coatings, if you are dip coating and then hang drying then yeah, pooling is an issue. Can be mitigated (not eliminated) with proper masking.
Same thing can happen with spray or other coating techniques and laying flat to dry/cure, but in my experience the biggest potential for problems is with dip and hanging.
There are so many variables when coating an object that it can quickly become an art over a science. 6 sigma can’t save you here. Drives manufacturing engineers nuts.
Without knowing the process they are using exactly, (coating product, coating application type, age of mixed product before applying, cure cycle, application room temperature / humidity, etc...) all I can do is shrug and say maybe.
Another comment: no such thing as a “fully cured” coating. Only a “cured enough” coating. From what has been stated here some people are witnessing products that had an insufficient cure. To me, that suggests that the manufacturer applying the coating has been too aggressive in optimizing their cure cycles and haven’t adequately captured the tails of the distribution curve.
For example, I could give you a butter coating today and a diamond coating next century. The sweet spot is somewhere in between.
Old saying where I used to work: Cost, delivery, quality. Pick two.

Thanks for the input.

#121 60 days ago

I think pinball manufacturers will have to start using adhesive PETG sheets with the artwork applied to the back, similar to the hardtops. With ghosting, chipping and pooling of clearcoats, stricter environmental regulations and the extra scrutiny the playfields are getting when bought for the home, the need to replace playfields is going to get more and more common. At some point it just won't be worth it anymore.

#122 60 days ago

i've figured out a way to get around this whole playfield mess besides only buying older games with good playfields already in them.

Only buy new games with new or current licensed themes. Works for me!

#123 60 days ago

Forget about the shooter lane pics - you will want to see post pics!

#124 60 days ago
Quoted from Chicoman:

Rumor has it that JJP playfields are made in China from what I've heard recently although they do use Microplayfields too. Maybe their CE models use Microplayfields and then China for the other models.
As for Stern I've seen it most recently on Deadpool and Munsters. Same crap! For $8k+ you would think they'd get this crap under control.
Heck all of my Bally/Williams 90's era pins are all in excellent condition with no chipping or pooling around the posts.

Don’t think there’s any truth to JJP playfields being made in China
I don’t know who Microplayfields is but pretty sure all JJP’s are Mirco playfields

-1
#125 60 days ago
Quoted from solarvalue:

I think pinball manufacturers will have to start using adhesive PETG sheets with the artwork applied to the back, similar to the hardtops. With ghosting, chipping and pooling of clearcoats, stricter environmental regulations and the extra scrutiny the playfields are getting when bought for the home, the need to replace playfields is going to get more and more common. At some point it just won't be worth it anymore.

I’ve been thinking the same thing, the hardtop seems like a great solution to me.

#126 60 days ago
Quoted from romulusx:

Don’t think there’s any truth to JJP playfields being made in China
I don’t know who Microplayfields is but pretty sure all JJP’s are Mirco playfields

Maybe Homepin is making them!

#127 60 days ago
Quoted from jp1985:

Maybe Homepin is making them!

Homepin is a hardtop with reverse printed graphics. Ink covering the inserts, they aren't very bright... I found the insert lights hard to notice.

Wish they could all just cut the cr@p, take a step back, and make good playfields like SEGA and WPC were... can be done. Cost more. Using such sub standard parts and proceedures undermines the the whole show, counter productive, a waste.

18
#128 60 days ago

Also, the band aid approach of adding washers underneath, is just going to push the ripples further out?

074faff8f600ab2005509a373a60a202a7199084 (resized).jpg
#129 60 days ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Also, the band aid approach of adding washers underneath, is just going to push the ripples further out?[quoted image]

Those washers look like they are installed with the sharp side facing down!?

Not that other way up would stop the ripples, but surely sharp edge down is going to be more damaging ?

10
#130 59 days ago

This is getting bad. Seriously. More plays are going to equal more damage. No nib games for me until this is resolved

#131 59 days ago
Quoted from Vinnie:

My brand new Iron Maiden Pro manufactured in June 2019 has the exact same issues. No chipping yet but I only have around 500 plays on it. I only have a picture of the star post right now but the same thing is happening in other areas of play field. Basically anywhere there is a post/contact with the table. Stern for sure has not fixed the issue unless it has been corrected within the past two months. I have opened a case with my distributor so I'll find out what Stern has to say in about a week. If it doesn't chip I can live with it. If it starts chipping I think it becomes unacceptable.[quoted image]

It will chip, it’s just when?

#132 59 days ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

C'mon everyone, we all know how capitalism works, don't we? ... ever increasing profit margins and ever increasing cut corners and exclusions all while the price rises. Nothing unexpected, they don't make 'em like they used to. Real quality wood, and taking the time and care required for superior quality product have gone to the wayside, so that things can continue on the essential growth curve! . Capitalism is just the best isn't it!
I made the choice never to buy another new in box stern after the horrendous dimpling that happened to my n.i.b. ACDC Prem VE. It warranted a replacement Decent playfield in my opinion, but I was brushed of by the stern dealer along with the likes of the man Steve himself who claimed it was "normal". Besides if the playfield was replaced it would just be the same s#it quality p/f to replace it. I sold the POS, I would get another as I think it's a great game, but I will buy an original run that has a playfield made with more care and decent hard wood. Also bonus get a propper backbox latch, backbox, and real lockdown reciever. Stern especially have taken Cheap and Nasty to the Next level from all that I've seen. They out do everyone else for cheap, by leagues. What operator is going to be keen to buy a new JP2 that does not eat the ball? . It's the main attraction and what everyone expects from JP... may as well keep the old one or buy a Premium... or was that the plan... less pro's?
Venting sequence complete!

Jesus dude, get out of the hobby already...Times up

#133 59 days ago
Quoted from dsmoke1986:

Jesus dude, get out of the hobby already...Times up

Be real! .... too many great pins to enjoy!!! ... I only just started, just not going to be owning any more n.i.b. stern jobs.

Simple!

Sorry if it struck a nerve for you mate! ... I wasn't intending to upset anyone, just sharing the bad experience around continued playfield quality issues. Take a chill pill.

#134 59 days ago
Quoted from solarvalue:

I think pinball manufacturers will have to start using adhesive PETG sheets with the artwork applied to the back, similar to the hardtops. With ghosting, chipping and pooling of clearcoats, stricter environmental regulations and the extra scrutiny the playfields are getting when bought for the home, the need to replace playfields is going to get more and more common. At some point it just won't be worth it anymore.

My slugfest still looks great!

#135 59 days ago
Quoted from gliebig:

My slugfest still looks great!

All of my SEGA games must have had several thousands of plays at a minimum. No dimpling. No wear spots. No ripples. No ghosting. No chipping. They all still look fantastic.

They just need to be kept clean with good balls.

Sad how the biggest are taking pinball backwards in terms of quality and solid build.

All we can do as buyers really I guess is vote with our wallets, which I'm doing.

#136 59 days ago

Some post pictures from a number of machines and manufacturers last night, sorry difficulty with some lighting and no JJP. I didn't see pooling or chipping with any of these titles.

IMG_20190821_210515 (resized).jpgIMG_20190821_210511 (resized).jpgIMG_20190821_211920 (resized).jpgIMG_20190821_211924 (resized).jpgIMG_20190821_211033 (resized).jpgIMG_20190821_211036 (resized).jpgIMG_20190821_212033 (resized).jpgIMG_20190821_212040 (resized).jpg
#137 59 days ago
Quoted from jellikit:

Some post pictures from a number of machines and manufacturers last night, sorry difficulty with some lighting and no JJP. I didn't see pooling or chipping with any of these titles.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

The dimpling isn't quite as bad as some that I've seen. Notice there is quite some difference between dimple severity on the CGC game compared generally to the others in the pics there.

#138 59 days ago
Quoted from woody76:

Will be very hard to sell for sure and the inspections that will take place will be terrible. I would think long distant sells will drop even more now without being able to buy in person. I would be open to buying a used pin with issues but at a huge discount. Probably much lower than anyone would want to sell for.

I haven't bought a pin in some time. I don't have the cash on hand to justify plunking down $8-10K on new machines, and there are a few I would not mind having. I'd love to have a TBL, but that is another story in it's own right. Just as importantly, I don't have the room. I own only three games, in addition to four arcade games and the space they consume, not to mention upkeep, adds up fast. My Stern Lord of the Rings, I bought used, from a seller that was a private owner, but had to make space in his home because a child was on the way.

Arranged shipping through North American Van Lines, after talking to the seller on the phone. The game was like NIB condition when I received it. It even smelled new. My Fireball II was an ebay auction for a dead machine. $300 plus the cost in fuel to drive and pick it up. My D&D was $900, plus $300 to ship via NAVL, also via an ebay auction.

I believe I got a great deal on that LOTR pin, with shipping only came to $4800. Seems like a deal now, inflation notwithstanding. And with the exception of the destroyed Fireball II playfield, the other two playfields were in excellent to remarkable shape. These games aren't cheap, this hobby isn't cheap.

When plunking down a crap ton of money, one has every reason to expect the playfield, the most important part of the game, to be in a condition that reflects the aura of professionally made and assembled with pride. Buying an older game is one thing, wear should be expected. NIB games, not so much.

For the kind of money we're discussing here, you are probably spot on with your analysis for the future. One other thing, that I believe is worthy of note: my machines are personal machines only. I won't sell them, unless life takes me to a place where I have no choice. So when I buy one, I buy it to keep.

#139 59 days ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

The dimpling isn't quite as bad as some that I've seen. Notice there is quite some difference between dimple severity on the CGC game compared generally to the others in the pics there.

I've had every CGC release so far and they all dimple easily, granted they are all fast games that can get a good amount of airballs. Even when I look at older games that play fast (Shadow for example) there are many dimples that have flattened over time, you just need to be in the right light/angle to see them but they are there. These brand new games make them more obvious until that process happens over thousands of plays. As for the pooling or chipping goes, I've never seen that issue on CGC fields in my experience.

#140 59 days ago

speaking of pooling and chipping, there was no way I was going to burn this, so I framed it

208_0898 (resized).JPG
#141 59 days ago

I had my MMrLE for three years and there was barely a mark on it. You REALLY had to look hard to find something.

#142 59 days ago
Quoted from gjm7777:

I've had every CGC release so far and they all dimple easily, granted they are all fast games that can get a good amount of airballs. Even when I look at older games that play fast (Shadow for example) there are many dimples that have flattened over time, you just need to be in the right light/angle to see them but they are there. These brand new games make them more obvious until that process happens over thousands of plays. As for the pooling or chipping goes, I've never seen that issue on CGC fields in my experience.

Just saying, there is a noticable difference between the appearance of the Monster Bash there, that has developed a "fine ripple". Pretty much all the others show individual dimples and a less consistent surface. Of course the pics aren't the best.

My ACDC VE had dimples up to 4mm in diameter, close to 3/16" .... I have never seen anything that comes close to that on any CGC game I have played.

#143 59 days ago
Quoted from jellikit:

I didn't see pooling or chipping with any of these titles.

I dont either, but it does look Stern gave you a dried ass right sling rubber on your DP.

2CE71F09-A1BF-4A3A-9114-78B50B711AB0 (resized).jpeg

#144 59 days ago

You need to add Total Nuclear Annihilation to the list of bad playfields. That forum dealt with this issue back in early 2019. My slings started chipping after about 500 plays and my scoop around 700 plays got a big chunk of clear taken from the front edge. Frustrating for sure but I ended up putting the washers under all my star posts. For the scoop I ended up brushing a very thin layer of epoxy on the area that was chipped. It filled the hole in good and I have not seen anymore damage in that area. I am at over 2000 plays now.

-4
#145 59 days ago
Quoted from jellikit:

Some post pictures from a number of machines and manufacturers last night, sorry difficulty with some lighting and no JJP. I didn't see pooling or chipping with any of these titles.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

And let me state for the record, these posts showed no pooling, chipping, wear or anything!

IMG_20190821_212420 (resized).jpgIMG_20190821_212415 (resized).jpg
#146 59 days ago
Quoted from gjm7777:

Even when I look at older games that play fast (Shadow for example) there are many dimples that have flattened over time, you just need to be in the right light/angle to see them but they are there. These brand new games make them more obvious until that process happens over thousands of plays.

lol. My BM66 looked like the surface of the moon after very few plays. After a couple years on location and 1000s of plays it looks way worse.

So at what point will it smooth out and look like the playfields in my 90s Williams games? Never.

#147 59 days ago
Quoted from o-din:

lol. My BM66 looked like the surface of the moon after very few plays. After a couple years on location and 1000s of plays it looks way worse.
So at what point will it smooth out and look like the playfields in my 90s Williams games? Never.

28.5 years from now.

#148 59 days ago
Quoted from gjm7777:

28.5 years from now.

Great! Hopefully I will also be able to get all the node boards for it then too.

#149 59 days ago
Quoted from o-din:

Great! Hopefully I will also be able to get all the node boards for it then too.

Yeah by then the only pooling concern will probably be in our diapers.
Gary will probably take the remaining node boards, create a sarcophagus from them and take em to the grave just to spite everyone.

#150 59 days ago
Quoted from o-din:

So at what point will it smooth out and look like the playfields in my 90s Williams games? Never.

Quoted from gjm7777:

28.5 years from now.

Quoted from o-din:

Great! Hopefully I will also be able to get all the node boards for it then too.

Quoted from gjm7777:

Gary will probably take the remaining node boards, create a sarcophagus from them and take em to the grave just to spite everyone.

Nice back and forth fellas - well played!

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 42.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
The MOD Couple
$ 15.00
Lighting - Led
3D MODS
$ 8,999.00
Pinball Machine
Classic Game Rooms
9,400
Machine - For Sale
West Chicago, IL
There are 2706 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 55.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside