(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

55 days ago



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There are 2610 posts in this topic. You are on page 29 of 53.
#1401 31 days ago
Quoted from Tahitiansea:

I just bought my first NIB pin yesterday (Deadpool Pro). I have been following this thread and several others regarding issues with PFs, pooling, chipping, etc. I scoured the pf after I unboxed it and didn’t see any pooling, chipping, or issues with the playfield graphics. I ordered new coil stops a few days ago from Pinball Life and when I went to swap them last night, discovered the stern ones didn’t appear to be the bronze ones everyone has had issues with. My pin was made on Aug 22nd, 2019. I just thought I would share my experience with a recently built NIB pin.

Yea most/all dead pools seem to be good

#1402 31 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

There are tons of people wanting to buy Jurassic Park right now if they had the confidence to do it and i am one of them. I think Stern would be wise to let it be known that the problem is resolved once they get it figured out. Of course the other problem is you got a bunch of bad games sitting in boxes at distributors right now and people will not want anything that is old stock so they wont buy because of that.

I agree 100%. Not only that, for machines with known high rates of defective clearcoat (Wonka and JP2 come to mind), I think both JJP and Stern will have to be clear that machine with serial number xx does not have the defective clearcoat -- and it should be clearly stated by the distributor that machine serial number xx does not have defective clearcoat. This will be a pain for distros, JJP and Stern but will HELP sales for those models -- which have been blackballed by this whole stupid mess.

#1403 30 days ago

Any comment from Keith Elwin on this? He must be gutted, knocks JP2 out of the park, looks to be even better than Maiden and then totally out of his control preorders get pulled left right and centre and Stern don't even address the issue.

I'm sure he's thrilled they've quickly pushed the official announcement of the highly anticipated Elvira to paint over the cracks.

Stern should recall and replace all affected tables, sure, shipping and man hours add up but surely this is a critical condition that can't be ignored at this stage?

31
#1404 30 days ago

I won’t even think the issue has been resolved until I see machines going out without those f****** washers on it. It is an admission of guilt having those washers under the posts.

#1405 30 days ago
Quoted from JonCrox:

I'm sure he's thrilled they've quickly pushed the official announcement of the highly anticipated Elvira to paint over the cracks.

I don't think they pushed it ahead. The game will probably be shown at expo. They're just building hype.

#1406 30 days ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

I won’t even think the issue has been resolved until I see machines going out without those f****** washers on it. It is an admission of guilt having those washers under the posts.

LE #20 shipped. No washers. No ink around posts. Compare to pro attached. From pre/le JP thread

551A5FB5-DA81-4607-B1E1-0BA635ACE997 (resized).png78042EC4-847D-401C-82FB-9D8229D07537 (resized).png
#1407 30 days ago
Quoted from tbutler6:

LE #20 shipped. No washers. No ink around posts. Compare to pro attached. From pre/le JP thread[quoted image][quoted image]

Al I see is pixilated Orange. Good charge on your battery though

-1
#1408 30 days ago
Quoted from JonCrox:

Any comment from Keith Elwin on this? He must be gutted, knocks JP2 out of the park, looks to be even better than Maiden and then totally out of his control preorders get pulled left right and centre and Stern don't even address the issue.
I'm sure he's thrilled they've quickly pushed the official announcement of the highly anticipated Elvira to paint over the cracks.
Stern should recall and replace all affected tables, sure, shipping and man hours add up but surely this is a critical condition that can't be ignored at this stage?

It will never happen.
This is an industry of back alley handshakes, and clandestine winks and nods. Some folks on the manufacturing side are not what most people would consider honorable.

#1409 30 days ago

So it is bc of the art not adhering to the playfield well?

#1410 30 days ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

So it is bc of the art not adhering to the playfield well?

We can suppose that.

#1411 30 days ago

Visually I’m not a big fan of the how that looks on the LE but it’s better than pooling and cracking. It doesn’t seem like a great fix though, what about the rest of the playfield long term? I would be a lot more confident if the fixed why the art was lifting not just remove art in trouble spots.

#1412 30 days ago

This is what Spooky did with TNA to fix the issue too.

#1414 30 days ago

So Jack reponds by sending out unpopulated playfields and Stern purposely leaks photos of Elvira to take the heat off of them. Well played by both to keep f...ing there customers.

#1415 30 days ago
Quoted from shovelhed:to keep f...ing there customers.

fleecing their customers?

goldenfleece (resized).jpg
#1416 30 days ago
Quoted from shovelhed:

So Jack reponds by sending out unpopulated playfields and Stern purposely leaks photos of Elvira to take the heat off of them. Well played by both to keep f...ing there customers.

Jack's response sounds better then "hey we aren't going to admit there are playfield problems, send us $9k for our next LE" lol.

#1417 30 days ago
Quoted from tbutler6:

LE #20 shipped. No washers. No ink around posts. Compare to pro attached. From pre/le JP thread[quoted image][quoted image]

Can’t see what’s going on there. Any idea whether they’ve fixed the post in front of the upper flipper?

#1418 30 days ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Can’t see what’s going on there. Any idea whether they’ve fixed the post in front of the upper flipper?

That sounds like an easy fix... only thing i would say is don’t expect the playfield to be bulletproof. CGC/Spooky used a higher quality wood and process than is too be expected of stern

#1419 30 days ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Can’t see what’s going on there. Any idea whether they’ve fixed the post in front of the upper flipper?

It looks like theres now a small area without artwork around each star post that didn't exist on early pros?

#1420 30 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

It looks like theres now a small area without artwork around each star post that didn't exist on early pros?

So they re-printed the Playfields? Hopefully they also tweaked the clear mix.

#1421 30 days ago
Quoted from tbutler6:

That sounds like an easy fix... only thing i would say is don’t expect the playfield to be bulletproof. CGC/Spooky used a higher quality wood and process than is too be expected of stern

Does CGC/Spooky really use better wood in their playfields? If so good for them. Competition is good for quality. Step it up Stern.

#1422 30 days ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

Does CGC/Spooky really use better wood in their playfields? If so good for them. Competition is good for quality. Step it up Stern.

Cgc is also silk screened so thats y they haven't had this issue....

#1423 30 days ago

Where are the gameplay videos???

#1424 30 days ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

Does CGC/Spooky really use better wood in their playfields? If so good for them. Competition is good for quality. Step it up Stern.

I thought Stern ordered cabinets and playfield a from Churchill, same place CGC did?

http://www.pinballnews.com/learn/churchill/index.html

#1425 30 days ago

Stern has addressed the issue ... all post areas now have no art and have a big circle around them.

#1426 30 days ago

IMG_04771 (resized).jpgIMG_04781 (resized).jpgIMG_04751 (resized).jpgIMG_04761 (resized).jpg

#1427 30 days ago

As I mentioned in the other thread, looking at that LE playfield up close makes me think that they may have resolved the bubbling issue at the posts. All the bubbling and pooling on Pros and other Stern pins shows the paint underneath adhering to the clearcoat as it bubbles up, making it look like an adherence issue between the artwork and the wood. By not having artwork there and only clearcoat it *may* resolve it, as they may have found that the printed artwork being the issue when stressed at a post.

#1428 30 days ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

Stern has addressed the issue ... all post areas now have no art and have a big circle around them.

You'd think Stern would publish something about the change in the design around posts, and possibly the clear coat itself, but they are apparently still being very careful not to say or do anything that could increase their liability. I hope they don't convince themselves that the damage to customer goodwill and NIB sales won't be too bad if they just fix the problem going forward without properly addressing defective playfields on the past several games. They've always done right by me, which is a big reason I was willing to buy NIB despite their ridiculously poor written warranty.

#1429 29 days ago
Quoted from luckymoey:

You'd think Stern would publish something about the change in the design around posts, and possibly the clear coat itself, but they are apparently still being very careful not to say or do anything that could increase their liability. I hope they don't convince themselves that the damage to customer goodwill and NIB sales won't be too bad if they just fix the problem going forward without properly addressing defective playfields on the past several games. They've always done right by me, which is a big reason I was willing to buy NIB despite their ridiculously poor written warranty.

They did publish something. All of their flyers state "Game subject to change".

#1430 29 days ago
Quoted from luckymoey:

You'd think Stern would publish something about the change in the design around posts, and possibly the clear coat itself, but they are apparently still being very careful not to say or do anything that could increase their liability

You pretty much answered yourself If you publicly state you made this change for that matter... you pretty much make it easier for others to come back and say you owe that fix to me too because the original was defective.

#1431 29 days ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

Stern has addressed the issue ... all post areas now have no art and have a big circle around them.

Wouldn't be the first time this design decision was made. My WPT has skinny posts but countersunk with no art and topside t-nuts.

image-19[1] (resized).jpg
#1432 29 days ago

Will be interesting to see if the next batch of Pro playfields has the blank rings around the posts.

#1433 29 days ago
Quoted from westofrome:

Will be interesting to see if the next batch of Pro playfields has the blank rings around the posts.

Of jp2? They do

#1434 29 days ago

So is this "it"? Is this all it takes to remedy? I guess we have to wait 4-8 weeks and check in with the new owners.

#1435 29 days ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

I thought Stern ordered cabinets and playfield a from Churchill, same place CGC did?
http://www.pinballnews.com/learn/churchill/index.html

My understanding is they used Churchhill in the past but haven't in recent years. Probably not a coincidence that all these playfield issues started once they decided to cut costs (or whatever fall out happened with CGC/Churchhill) and started using other PF suppliers.

If I was Chicago Gaming, I would look at all these problems at Stern as a golden opportunity to recruit away some of their designers and start making non-remake pins as well.

CGC's quality on remakes has been clearly the best in the industry in recent years and owning Churchill gives them a big competitive advantage given all the problems at Stern & JJP right now.

#1436 29 days ago

dont be surprised if JJP employs the same 'no art around posts' fix on their replacement POTC and newer wonka playfields.

15
#1437 29 days ago
Quoted from greenhornet:

dont be surprised if JJP employs the same 'no art around posts' fix on their replacement POTC and newer wonka playfields.

I'm calling it the COMA fix. Circle Of Missing Artwork.

#1438 29 days ago

It was said long ago part of the problem is ink adhesion issues. If they've stopped using ink around posts imagine what VUK holes and kick out holes will have to look like. Imagine the artist designs the playfield artwork and then goes over all impact areas and erases the artwork. YIKES! I believe this is going to become the new norm.

#1439 29 days ago
Quoted from frolic:

So is this "it"? Is this all it takes to remedy? I guess we have to wait 4-8 weeks and check in with the new owners.

This tells us clearly one thing (no pun intended) - the paint did not adhere to the wood, that was the cause for Stern's problems.
Leaving out the paint allows the clear itself to stick to the wood and at least in Stern's case that seems to be problem solved.

Now remember that Spooky are VERY vocal about having "solved it" during and after TNA...and guess what, same deal on Alice Cooper, go figure. No secret sauce, no harder or softer clear, no proprietary solution to keep a secret. They simply threw their hands up in the air, said f it, pulled back the art from the posts and allowed for the clear itself to grab. And I don't care a bit, I think it looks cool.

But now I feel less confident in JJP being able to stand behind the playfields they sold to POTC owners (and later refunded them for), those things will have to be timebombs. And unless they prove me otherwise, how am I going to accept a replacement playfield from JJP for my cracked and chipped POTC CE going forward?

https://i1.wp.com/geekdad.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/03/AliceCooper_Playfield.jpg?resize=1376%2C1032&ssl=1

Further proof: TNA before fix:

https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/TNA-entire-playfield.jpg

After "fix":

https://www.pinballlife.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/TNA%20Playfield.jpg

#1440 29 days ago

and dont lose sight of the artwork that you cant even see [pun intended]. this pic of an unpopulated ACNC playfield better illustrates all the areas where art has been cut back, but also shows an entire snake skeleton inhabiting the orbit that is obscured in the actual game.

acncunpoppf (resized).jpg
#1441 29 days ago

That playfield is gorgeous

pasted_image (resized).png
#1442 29 days ago
Quoted from DerGoetz:

That playfield is gorgeous[quoted image]

A true world under glass.

#1443 29 days ago

Made in China?

#1444 29 days ago
Quoted from BOBCADE:

Made in China?

Made in Wisconsin.

The box is something else.

rd

#1445 29 days ago
Quoted from DerGoetz:

This tells us clearly one thing (no pun intended) - the paint did not adhere to the wood, that was the cause for Stern's problems.
Leaving out the paint allows the clear itself to stick to the wood and at least in Stern's case that seems to be problem solved.
Now remember that Spooky are VERY vocal about having "solved it" during and after TNA...and guess what, same deal on Alice Cooper, go figure. No secret sauce, no harder or softer clear, no proprietary solution to keep a secret. They simply threw their hands up in the air, said f it, pulled back the art from the posts and allowed for the clear itself to grab. And I don't care a bit, I think it looks cool.
But now I feel less confident in JJP being able to stand behind the playfields they sold to POTC owners (and later refunded them for), those things will have to be timebombs. And unless they prove me otherwise, how am I going to accept a replacement playfield from JJP for my cracked and chipped POTC CE going forward?
https://i1.wp.com/geekdad.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/03/AliceCooper_Playfield.jpg?resize=1376%2C1032&ssl=1
Further proof: TNA before fix:
https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/TNA-entire-playfield.jpg
After "fix":
https://www.pinballlife.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/TNA%20Playfield.jpg

Spooky uses better quality expensive clear, if you look at a Spooky playfield it has a matte look to it. Stern and JJP are very glossy glass like.
Although I see an adhesive issue at post stress points chipping, the pooling is a poor hardner mix issue that will not properly cure.

I recently had my ‘68 fastback redone using Southern Polyurethane 4 coats of clear, stuff is expensive but worth it.
https://www.southernpolyurethanes.com/clears #clearcoatmatters

#1446 29 days ago
Quoted from DerGoetz:

This tells us clearly one thing (no pun intended) - the paint did not adhere to the wood, that was the cause for Stern's problems.
Leaving out the paint allows the clear itself to stick to the wood and at least in Stern's case that seems to be problem solved.
Now remember that Spooky are VERY vocal about having "solved it" during and after TNA...and guess what, same deal on Alice Cooper, go figure. No secret sauce, no harder or softer clear, no proprietary solution to keep a secret. They simply threw their hands up in the air, said f it, pulled back the art from the posts and allowed for the clear itself to grab. And I don't care a bit, I think it looks cool.
But now I feel less confident in JJP being able to stand behind the playfields they sold to POTC owners (and later refunded them for), those things will have to be timebombs. And unless they prove me otherwise, how am I going to accept a replacement playfield from JJP for my cracked and chipped POTC CE going forward?
https://i1.wp.com/geekdad.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/03/AliceCooper_Playfield.jpg?resize=1376%2C1032&ssl=1
Further proof: TNA before fix:
https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/TNA-entire-playfield.jpg
After "fix":
https://www.pinballlife.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/TNA%20Playfield.jpg

Art around the posts was only part of the solution. Spooky also does their own playfields including clear.

#1447 29 days ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

Stern has addressed the issue ... all post areas now have no art and have a big circle around them.

Very cheap fix .....

#1448 29 days ago

what will happen to the playfields over time if the paint isnt fixed to the surface and the clear is soft?

This is just a detour and not a fix.

Seems strange to me that this can be an issue at all. Hockeysticks takes ten times the beating of a pinball playfield but no clear chipping and underlaying decor is not moving one bit, them sticks are also flexible as hell, so what is the problem with pinball playfields?

#1449 29 days ago
Quoted from Dr-pin:

what will happen to the playfields over time if the paint isnt fixed to the surface and the clear is soft?
This is just a detour and not a fix.
Seems strange to me that this can be an issue at all. Hockeysticks takes ten times the beating of a pinball playfield but no clear chipping and underlaying decor is not moving one bit, them sticks are also flexible as hell, so what is the problem with pinball playfields?

I wonder if any of the players check their hockeysticks for dimples.

Whatever the problem, my guess is that Mirco at least believes he can fix it. Why would JJP provide new playfields from a new batch in their replacement program otherwise? They know that new playfields will receive strong scrutiny. It will be interesting to see if some of the art is gone from under the slings in addition to extra effort on the hardening.

#1450 29 days ago
Quoted from Dr-pin:

what will happen to the playfields over time if the paint isnt fixed to the surface and the clear is soft?

It would be interesting to examine some of the affected playfields every five years or so to see if there are differences long term.

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