(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

56 days ago



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There are 2642 posts in this topic. You are on page 24 of 53.
#1151 37 days ago
Quoted from snaroff:

At some level, this is really simple. Some percentage of the PF's have defects. Seems like the % of defective PF's has gone up and Stern isn't screening them. If they are building 1000 machines, it would be interesting to know how many "extra" PF's they order to compensate for pulling defective PF's. The QA process would be fascinating for Stern to speak about. Unfortunately, they are a really tight lipped company and I don't expect any big "mea culpa" with details on the QA process. I also wouldn't be surprised if the PF producers haven't seen margin increases for years (which doesn't motivate them to do A+ work).

Agreed. Well said. The argument of what constitutes “defective” is certainly a challenging one. We have a very high percentage of HUO nowadays and if you judge the amount of plays they get versus in service machines of old there is definitely an issue. It’s very bizarre to me that the issues are not consistent, but again...things are done in lots and lot 123 may be horrible and 456 could be perfectly fine. Unfortunate that the end product manufacturers are not coming clean about it.

#1152 37 days ago
Quoted from swampfire:

I’m not sure what you mean. I think the quality is better in almost every way, especially compared to LOTR.

Not sure what LOTR you’re playing but i have access to two that have been routed and beaten up beyond belief and they still play amazing and are much more reliable than some of the new nonsense being pumped out by stern. The code is a masterpiece, theme integration is top notch and the playfields aren’t pooling and chipping around posts.

But sure... the ‘quality’ of JP2 is better LOL. Whatever gets you through the night.

(And i love JP2. But stern isn’t making them like they used to unfortunately)

#1153 37 days ago
Quoted from John_I:

With them switching to water based clear, this is more of a QE failure than a QA issue. QE needs to fix this and create new QA processes to detect issues before the playfields are populated.
This does kind of remind me of the RoHS cluster F that happened 15 years ago. The new environmentally friendly lead free solder promised to be just as good as the old stuff, but soon every new TV or stereo I bought was failing within a year or two. Previously TVs and receivers were reliable as hell for many years. I bought a Sony AVR in 2004 along with a 32 inch TV. Both of them were nothing but trouble. Every time something would fail, I'd open it up and flow some leaded solder onto components until it started working again. One thing for sure, Sony never had a mea culpa or gave me new boards to replace the failed boards. ASUS never gave me new motherboards to replace the ones with bad capacitors either. Eventually RoHS worked out fine, but initially it sure filled a lot of landfills with electronics. I suspect that playfield manufacturers are scrambling right now to find what works and purge supplies of the clear that doesn't work.
Personally I would be happy with Stern selling me a new playfield at their cost because all I have is pooling and it is not bad at all. They should send corrected playfields for free in more extreme cases that include cracking.

Hi John,

QE, QA, whatever...we can agree about the Q Precision wasn't my goal. My point was if Stern is receiving bad PF's, they should be sending them back to the supplier...NOT passing them along to us.

I've bought many TV's over the years from Mitsubishi, SONY, & Samsung. Only received one (from SONY) that was DOA. All the others performed flawlessly for many years...never had any repairs or failures.

I'm sorry SONY didn't take care of you, but that shouldn't be reason to not expect Stern to do better. FWIW, I don't consider minor pooling around posts to be a big deal. I think my IMDN and Beatles have some. For me, chipping/cracking where art is compromised is a big deal...especially if it happens after very few plays in a home environment.

20
#1154 37 days ago

One more thing...this isn't just about the clear. My IMDN has awful wood grain showing through the artwork. I know I'm not the only one and was told this is the "new normal" by industry folks. I sent the photos to Stern and they did nothing. I'm sure if I made a big enough "stink", I might get more attention. Who knows. I just don't have the "fight" in me anymore to deal with this type of stuff. Life is too short. My solution is to simply avoid NIB purchases...in the past year I've had to deal with CPU death (Munsters), wood grain (IMDN) and node board failures (KISS). Meanwhile, all my older SAM/Whitestar Stern's give me awesome service.

#1155 37 days ago
Quoted from snaroff:

My solution is to simply avoid NIB purchases...

Im definitely feeling the same thing at the moment. I hate feeling that way too because i really want a JP and a Elvira 3 but they have to win my confidence back at this point and them making a statement saying that they have identified the problem and corrected it would go a long ways.

MultiballManiac was going to buy a JP Premium and bought a new Super Chexx bubble hockey instead. Im thinking that might not be a bad idea..

#1156 37 days ago

@snaroff those are definitely deal breaker issues. So sorry you have had to deal with problems of this scale. I have only had 2 NIB purchases and consider myself fortunate with only dimples. You’re right. Life is too short and there is too much pinball to be played. I am focusing on older pins that may need a little TLC, but they are tried and true and proven to last 20+ years. You also know what you’re getting to some extent. Just purchased a SI in need of restoration which should hold me over for a bit.

#1157 37 days ago
Quoted from RonSS:

This thread is about playfield pooling and chipping. You're arguing springs and stops.

It's about maximising ever increasing profits, to feed the monster. Doesn't seem like much of a mystery to me.

Probably just assembled Much earlier than their due date, perhaps combined with inadequate playfield prep for some... ... at the end of the day they'd still dimple excessively, have woodgrain... or any of a dozen other obvious symptoms of cost cutting, anyway.

#1158 37 days ago
Quoted from snaroff:

One more thing...this isn't just about the clear. My IMDN has awful wood grain showing through the artwork. I know I'm not the only one and was told this is the "new normal" by industry folks. I sent the photos to Stern and they did nothing. I'm sure if I made a big enough "stink", I might get more attention. Who knows. I just don't have the "fight" in me anymore to deal with this type of stuff. Life is too short. My solution is to simply avoid NIB purchases...in the past year I've had to deal with CPU death (Munsters), wood grain (IMDN) and node board failures (KISS). Meanwhile, all my older SAM/Whitestar Stern's give me awesome service.

Are you talking about a ribbing look on the playfield? I never thought this looked bad, just me though...

#1159 37 days ago
Quoted from PinballTilt:

I've not read what is or isn't included under this new JJP offer. It wouldn't hurt to submit a ticket even if it's just so it's documented should it chip. If the rumors are true and Mirco is having to pay some or all of the cost of these playfields, JJP may be lenient.

I submitted a ticket over a week ago.....crickets.

#1160 37 days ago
Quoted from zaphX:

I might get hit by a truck years from now. Today, I'm having a great time playing a great game!

and if you don't get hit by a truck you may have to deal with a PF that has major chipping and peeling in a few years or less

Quoted from pninja005:

I actually start to wonder if there are any IM out there that dont have pooling. Most (including myself) didnt notice until inpsecting after reading the messages here.

I've looked mine over, and besides major dimpling, it looks good.

#1161 37 days ago
Quoted from gliebig:

I submitted a ticket over a week ago.....crickets.

I submitted mine several weeks ago and have yet to receive a call. I am trying to be patient. I did get an email response back quickly though.

#1162 37 days ago

Maybe the wood is so soft the art blisters when hardware sinks into it?

#1163 37 days ago
Quoted from fooflighter:

Are you talking about a ribbing look on the playfield? I never thought this looked bad, just me though...

Correct (photo attached).

To each his own, I guess. Fortunately, from the players perspective, it doesn't look nearly as bad as this photo. Just to be clear, this is purely aesthetic...the clear coat is absolutely smooth (i.e. can't feel the wood grain). Nevertheless, it's a sign that the PF's aren't being sanded/smoothed properly...yet another sign of dialing down the labor cost to produce a PF. That's what it's all about, folks!
image (resized).png

#1164 37 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Im definitely feeling the same thing at the moment. I hate feeling that way too because i really want a JP and a Elvira 3 but they have to win my confidence back at this point and them making a statement saying that they have identified the problem and corrected it would go a long ways.

Agreed, but you can still have JP/E3...you just have to wait 6-9 months after release when they start hitting the resale market. That's what I did with BM66 Premium and couldn't be happier with the decision!

#1165 37 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Im definitely feeling the same thing at the moment. I hate feeling that way too because i really want a JP and a Elvira 3 but they have to win my confidence back at this point and them making a statement saying that they have identified the problem and corrected it would go a long ways.
MultiballManiac was going to buy a JP Premium and bought a new Super Chexx bubble hockey instead. Im thinking that might not be a bad idea..

I was in the NIB market during Stern’s ghosted insert era (2017 me thinks)

Before pulling the trigger I reached out to Stern to see if they fixed the issue.

No response

Then the new Star Wars manual had wording stating ghosting was normal IIRC

So I bought a NIB Golden Tee instead & love it

This time around I am eyeing a NIB Big Buck Hunter HD

Or maybe I will just wait & see what Stern does

Either way I’m buying some more cool shit so life is good

Super Chex looks awesome. Get one dude!

-2
#1166 37 days ago
Quoted from anathematize:

But sure... the ‘quality’ of JP2 is better LOL. Whatever gets you through the night.
(And i love JP2. But stern isn’t making them like they used to unfortunately)

The reproduction quality of JP2’s cabinet and playfield art, audio and display are undeniably better than LOTR. I can update JP2 with a USB stick, or even change the callouts if I want to. LOTR had less clear coming from the factory, so it’s true that there weren’t clearcoat problems. But the playfield colors and registration were often off. I bought a LOTR playfield that was hand-picked by Ron Kruzman, didn’t realize how bad my NIB playfield was until I saw them side-by-side.

So yeah, reminisce about the “good old days”. But at least acknowledge that Stern has made lots of improvements in the past 15 years. I’m not saying this to excuse the current batch of playfield issues. Maybe Stern should go back to using thinner clear. Pixelated art and weird colors aside, my ‘04 LOTR playfield has held up really well.

#1167 37 days ago
Quoted from swampfire:

The reproduction quality of JP2’s cabinet and playfield art, audio and display are undeniably better than LOTR. I can update JP2 with a USB stick, or even change the callouts if I want to. LOTR had less clear coming from the factory, so it’s true that there weren’t clearcoat problems. But the playfield colors and registration were often off. I bought a LOTR playfield that was hand-picked by Ron Kruzman, didn’t realize how bad my NIB playfield was until I saw them side-by-side.
So yeah, reminisce about the “good old days”. But at least acknowledge that Stern has made lots of improvements in the past 15 years. I’m not saying this to excuse the current batch of playfield issues. Maybe Stern should go back to using thinner clear. Pixelated art and weird colors aside, my ‘04 LOTR playfield has held up really well.

I totally agree Stern has improved dramatically on artwork (both artists and print quality). In most cases, the high-res decals work great (notable exception KISS). While the high-res displays/grahpics are wizzy on the recent games, LOTR is a perfect example where the dots & shot choreography are just perfect (and "trump" wizzy). With the ColorDMD, it really shines.

Hate the new/cheap SPIKE fans...this isn't progress. The cheap power supplies and node boards don't measure up to Whitestar/SAM.

Overall, I much prefer the quality, feel, and maintainability of my pre-Spike Sterns (MET, AC/DC, TRON Pro, TRON LE, LOTR).

IMG_2581 (resized).jpeg
#1168 37 days ago
Quoted from PW79:

I was in the NIB market during Stern’s ghosted insert era (2017 me thinks)
Before pulling the trigger I reached out to Stern to see if they fixed the issue.
No response
Then the new Star Wars manual had wording stating ghosting was normal IIRC
So I bought a NIB Golden Tee instead & love it
This time around I am eyeing a NIB Big Buck Hunter HD
Or maybe I will just wait & see what Stern does
Either way I’m buying some more cool shit so life is good
Super Chex looks awesome. Get one dude!

Maybe buy a few new slot machines instead of pins. You think pins are expensive? The new slots are approaching $40K apiece with an unlicensed theme.

#1169 37 days ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Correct (photo attached).
To each his own, I guess. Fortunately, from the players perspective, it doesn't look nearly as bad as this photo. Just to be clear, this is purely aesthetic...the clear coat is absolutely smooth (i.e. can't feel the wood grain). Nevertheless, it's a sign that the PF's aren't being sanded/smoothed properly...yet another sign of dialing down the labor cost to produce a PF. That's what it's all about, folks!
[quoted image]

My Deadpool look like that, from players perspective aswell. I can feel the woodgrain slightly.

Stern just ask for more pictures every time i contact them for there decision, they don't want any closeups...I think i give up now, 6 month and nothing happens.

Edit: That playfield has perfect clear around all posts.

#1170 37 days ago
Quoted from Returner:

I think i give up now

Thats what the want you to do, hence the delay...

#1171 37 days ago
Quoted from cosmokramer:

Thats what the want you to do, hence the delay...

Agree with Cosmo here. I've been waiting on Stern for 3 months now for something else and anytime I call in I get "let me look into it and get back to you". Call week later and get "oh yeah, let me look into it for you and get back to you"

#1172 37 days ago

I'm new to the hobby, my SW Premium has a slight wood grain at extreme (nose in the cabinet with a flashlight) angles but with perfect clear, and no pooling...had I not seen the grain as a disliked feature on pinside, I wouldn't have even noticed it... I dunno, I guess it looks like wood to me.. I have some high end Gibson guitars and the grain on those gives them character, even under a nitrocellulous laquer finish...

#1173 37 days ago
Quoted from cosmokramer:Thats what the want you to do, hence the delay...

I know, but i'm fine with giving up now. The playfield have a cosmetic issue (ribbing/planking), but the clear is perfect.
The way thing are now i don't want to risk getting a new playfield with pooling.

11
#1174 37 days ago

Now clearcoat is even separating from the plastics, ridiculous.
KME.jpg

14
#1175 37 days ago

Ive made my choice and it was to buy two different sam system pins. Huo Spiderman and Twd premium. I have no worries with node boards, cabinet cracking, decals not adhering or chipped/horseshit playfields. Would I like these newer pins without constant problems, sure but until Stern truly addresses these issue they wont see a dime of my money

#1176 37 days ago
Quoted from shovelhed:

Ive made my choice and it was to buy two different sam system pins. Huo Spiderman and Twd premium. I have no worries with node boards, cabinet cracking, decals not adhering or chipped/horseshit playfields. Would I like these newer pins without constant problems, sure but until Stern truly addresses these issue they wont see a dime of my money

Same here. I bought a HUO Star Trek premium and a TWD LE both with super low plays. Not getting any nib, but I did want Jurassic, just don’t need it or the headache.

#1177 37 days ago
Quoted from meSz:

Agree with Cosmo here. I've been waiting on Stern for 3 months now for something else and anytime I call in I get "let me look into it and get back to you". Call week later and get "oh yeah, let me look into it for you and get back to you"

Call them again. As soon as they say that, tell them to stop right there. You have f-i-v-e minutes starting now to solve this. Otherwise I'm calling the credit card company and starting a chargeback. I have my waste of time CONtacts with you documented. You can come pick up your piece of shit machine. I am done. Don't care if it's a distributor getting dinked, they will sue you or short pay you on a current invoice.

Show them that two can play this game....

#1178 37 days ago
Quoted from PW79:

I was in the NIB market during Stern’s ghosted insert era (2017 me thinks)
Before pulling the trigger I reached out to Stern to see if they fixed the issue.
No response
Then the new Star Wars manual had wording stating ghosting was normal IIRC
So I bought a NIB Golden Tee instead & love it
This time around I am eyeing a NIB Big Buck Hunter HD
Or maybe I will just wait & see what Stern does
Either way I’m buying some more cool shit so life is good
Super Chex looks awesome. Get one dude!

Wonder what the resale is like on these games?

#1179 37 days ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Wonder what the resale is like on these games?

Prolly no worse than a Stern with missing PF art lol

Fuh real tho I think ya lose a grand on Golden Tee

But every year they add 7 courses if you update so why sell? It gets better every year. And replay value goes up the more you play since your skills improve & you start taking risky shots.

No idea on BBH. They dont sell a ton to home owners & operators hold onto em. I never see one cheap (HD LCD recent versions). BBH HD is expensive as fck tho!

Quoted from MrBally:

Maybe buy a few new slot machines instead of pins. You think pins are expensive? The new slots are approaching $40K apiece with an unlicensed theme.

I have a cheap Street Fighter slot machine that scratches that itch. If I'm dropping $40K its going towards the new C8 Vette.

#1180 36 days ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

Just wait for the big recession coming. 7k will be no longer expendable for most.

You hope??

#1181 36 days ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Correct (photo attached).
To each his own, I guess. Fortunately, from the players perspective, it doesn't look nearly as bad as this photo. Just to be clear, this is purely aesthetic...the clear coat is absolutely smooth (i.e. can't feel the wood grain). Nevertheless, it's a sign that the PF's aren't being sanded/smoothed properly...yet another sign of dialing down the labor cost to produce a PF. That's what it's all about, folks!
[quoted image]

I’m sorry, I’ve seen this issue many times before, but in that photo it looks like Stern forgot to remove the bark before printing and clearing!

#1182 36 days ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Of course, we all do.
I'm just saying, some of the issues people are freaking about - coil stops, shooter springs - these are 60 second fixes easily done.
I think we could all do with assuming positive intent. The manufacturers of these games are not twisting their mustaches thinking up evil ways to piss off pinball buyers. The folks in this industry do it because they love pinball - it's obviously a very tricky business to be in (as evidenced by the high profile flameouts of others who have tried.)

Is what they should be doing is twisting mustaches figuring out how to fix the obvious cost cutting problems. Where does it end with Stern? Cracked cabs, piss poor playfields, unwinding coils and dimpling pf.

A NIB buyer of Anything should not have to accept these defects. NIB buying will crater if they dont raise the quality of QC.

-9
#1183 36 days ago

I just received my JP2. It was a show model so it was played pretty hard at the Cleveland show this past weekend. I'm pleased to report with 841 plays on the ticker that the clear looks perfect still. There is a slight dent in the shooter lane which would be expected with that many plays. I don't care anyway since the game is going on route. I wouldn't worry if you're buying the game for home use. I think this issue is being blown out of proportion. Seems to hold up fine.

Born on date was Aug 17th.

21
#1184 36 days ago
Quoted from Rat:

Yeah this is disappointing, I would guess Martin had been reading this thread before recording the podcast by some of his comments, but not a single word from him about this being a problem with JP. Unless he corrects this and has an update in his next podcast stating that Stern JP is also affected by the "cleargate" issue then I won't be bothering listening ever again
Please do the right thing by the community Martin we are the customer remember?
It's not just him though, I have not seen any bloggers on social media say anything negative about Stern either, I think Stern must warn them not to say anything.

The Latest H2H podcast said in the description there would be an update to the clearcoat issue so I listened in the hope that factual and unbiased reporting would be restored but I was let down again. More JJP bashing about the clear and not a single mention of Stern or JP2 having the same issue AGAIN. This was followed by Marty prattling on about how much money he has, which is where I stopped the podcast and unsubscribed.

I apologise for all of Australia, how embarrassing, I hope no-one relies on this podcast to help guide their pinball purchases he is "clearly" sponsored by Stern

#1185 36 days ago

I won't buy a Stern until they openly discuss this issue, what their solution is for existing playfield and what they are going to change moving forward. A "handful of issues/contact your distributer" doesn't do it.

#1186 36 days ago

I regret even bringing up the springs now. The point was not specifically the springs, which I acknowledged myself were not a big deal and an easy fix. The point is if Stern assembly/QC is fucking up a bunch of minor things, it doesn't really instill confidence that the flippers/lights/wiring/node boards/etc. are going to be A+ quality either. I mean, we already have evidence that the playfields themselves are not A+ quality...

(All of that should have been obvious. Being misrepresented and talked past--which is basically all that happens here on Pinside so I should be used to it--is frustrating. Sure seems like some people care more about soft-trolling and "winning" this argument than actually understanding or reading what other people are saying. Oh well.)

I still regret hoping that zaph's table is shit, that was not nice of me.

11
#1187 36 days ago
Quoted from tpir:

I still regret hoping that zaph's table is shit, that was not nice of me.

Don’t give it another thought, friend. Passions are high all around on this issue. We’re all friends in pinball.

#1188 36 days ago

This issue is indeed making me miserable lol. Pinball was one of the few things in life that made me happy and I now feel gross and like a moron dumping money on these things. Of course, I was always a moron, it's just coming into clearer focus now

#1189 36 days ago
Quoted from tpir:

This issue is indeed making me miserable lol. Pinball was one of the few things in life that made me happy and I now feel gross and like a moron dumping money on these things. Of course, I was always a moron, it's just coming into clearer focus now

Believe me, seeking joy in pinball doesn’t make you a moron - I’m doing the same.

16
#1190 36 days ago

So the machine I set up tonight had very minor rippling/pooling. Removed the ugly metal washers from under the sling posts and found this (see left pic). I applied the heat gun on low for 10-15 seconds and it leveled into a nice smooth finish. This is great if it was permanent, but if a little heat can level it, imagine what a pinball can will do to it long term.

Icewatercoat (resized).png
#1191 36 days ago
Quoted from fattdirk:

I think this issue is being blown out of proportion.

Why don’t you tell that to the majority of owners with horseshit playfields. Shoot if I were you I would buy a lottery ticket, you would have better luck winning than getting another playfield without boogers.

#1192 36 days ago
Quoted from Aquapin:

So the machine I set up tonight had very minor rippling/pooling. Removed the ugly metal washers from under the sling posts and found this (see left pic). I applied the heat gun on low for 10-15 seconds and it leveled into a nice smooth finish. This is great if it was permanent, but if a little heat can level it, imagine what a pinball can will do to it long term.[quoted image]

Nice job in fixing.

However I fear you are right- temporary fix. Clear is to soft.

18
#1193 36 days ago
Quoted from fattdirk:

. I think this issue is being blown out of proportion.

Until your playfield chips like mine did, then it really sucks.

#1194 36 days ago

Just trying to add a little humor to take away some of the headaches.
Thankfully it was not too much clear coat. Funny they do the fingernail test as well.
Some swearing in video....enjoy.

#1195 36 days ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Maybe buy a few new slot machines instead of pins. You think pins are expensive? The new slots are approaching $40K apiece with an unlicensed theme.

Yeah, but how long do you think it takes a casino to break even on a slot machine? Months, weeks, days?

32
#1196 36 days ago

After speaking with a few of my fellow nib buyers at a league night yesterday, we've ALL decided to not be buyers until something happens to put our confidence back in. There was also a Jurassic Park on loan yesterday from the local distributor and you could see the damage. The host's Pirates was also chipping.

I'm just saying our little group represented a high ratio of game purchases and that can't be isolated. This (buyer confidence) is going to be a huge problem for Stern and JJP.

17
#1197 36 days ago
Quoted from fattdirk:

. I think this issue is being blown out of proportion. Seems to hold up fine.

You realize your sample size is 1 right?

#1198 36 days ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

Yeah, but how long do you think it takes a casino to break even on a slot machine? Months, weeks, days?

High traffic casinos with a popular game get under 90 day payback. If the trend is significantly less, out they go back to the manufacturer.

#1199 36 days ago
Quoted from fattdirk:

I just received my JP2. It was a show model so it was played pretty hard at the Cleveland show this past weekend. I'm pleased to report with 841 plays on the ticker that the clear looks perfect still. There is a slight dent in the shooter lane which would be expected with that many plays. I don't care anyway since the game is going on route. I wouldn't worry if you're buying the game for home use. I think this issue is being blown out of proportion. Seems to hold up fine.
Born on date was Aug 17th.

Glad you got a good one bro! JP2 was the fourth NIB I’d purchased from Stern, but the first to have a major issue right outta the box. Once I saw the posts digging into the clear coat in under 100 plays, I cut my losses and sold it ASAP. I still want a JP2, but not until they fix their product.

That clear coat was basically gel dude... You could watch it ripple up more when tightening the post by the upper right flipper. Not cool.

#1200 36 days ago

Has anyone heard back from Stern on this issue? Its not much, but it at least JJP is recognizing that its an issue and have provided free play fields to people who are affected....has Stern done anything?

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