(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

3 months ago



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There are 3273 posts in this topic. You are on page 23 of 66.
#1101 3 months ago

Wait 1 year. Buy used game that NIB owner has fixed coil stops, springs etc. If there is flaking art, discount applied. Save $500-1000? for sure.

Of course you could get hit by truck in a year I guess....because of trucks.

14
#1102 3 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

I might get hit by a truck years from now. Today, I'm having a great time playing a great game!

I like my machines to be defect free out of the box. Not to look like this.
I agree with Underlord.

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#1103 3 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

I might get hit by a truck years from now. Today, I'm having a great time playing a great game!

True, but you didn’t pay 6-12 grand for the chance to run across the highway.

Seriously though, not a lot of folks here I’ve met over the years that consider Pinball more important than losing money on its expenditure. Part of the appeal over vid games is they tend to hold or increase value.

Add to that Pinball is a huge purchase for us, it needs to be perfect. Anything less than beautiful and it tarnished the entire machine in my collection.

Chrome or gold trim. Pristine boards. Flawless cabs. Most important: playfield.

-1
#1104 3 months ago
Quoted from underlord:

True, but you didn’t pay 6-12 grand for the chance to run across the highway.
Seriously though, not a lot of folks here I’ve met over the years that consider Pinball more important than losing money on its expenditure. Part of the appeal over vid games is they tend to hold or increase value.

Just wait for the big recession coming. 7k will be no longer expendable for most.

10
#1105 3 months ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

Just wait for the big recession coming. 7k will be no longer expendable for most.

I’ve got a recession free job. Planned it that way.

#1106 3 months ago

I actually start to wonder if there are any IM out there that dont have pooling. Most (including myself) didnt notice until inpsecting after reading the messages here.

#1107 3 months ago

I was going to start buy more EMs, because of all of this cost cutting talk on NIBs. But then I remembered those cheap SOBs at Gottlieb switched from chromed metal posts to cheap white plastic posts in the mid-60s. Good thing Pinside wasn't around then. The nerve of them.

#1108 3 months ago

Here’s what I paid for my 3 NIB Sterns, in inflation-adjusted dollars (includes shipping & taxes):

2004 - LOTR - $5161
2013 - MET - $5176
2019 - JP2 - $5500

LOTR and MET came with monochrome DMDs, so I added ColorDMDs for $350 (show specials). Considering all that, I think Stern’s pricing has been pretty stable, with steady improvements in audio, graphics and electronics.

#1109 3 months ago
Quoted from John_I:

I was going to start buy more EMs, because of all of this cost cutting talk on NIBs. But then I remembered those cheap SOBs at Gottlieb switched from chromed metal posts to cheap white plastic posts in the mid-60s. Good thing Pinside wasn't around then. The nerve of them.

Worse than that they got rid of woodrails because metal rails were half the price of wood! Pinside in the 1950's would have exploded

#1110 3 months ago

I own wonka standard since the first week it was released and notice the pooling just like everyone else here. I personally removed the post with a credit card and hand pressure smooth out the bubble put Mylar over the post locations with the problem with a plastic washer on top on the post to prevent further damage and possibly further chipping. It’s been about a week and so and far it looks good I’m not saying it’s a guaranteed fix but it will help from getting worst. I still love my wonka sad to see people not buying because of the pooling. I’m in the same boat not buying jp2 until we at least get a statement from jjp or stern.

#1111 3 months ago

I think we need to ban all trucks.

#1112 3 months ago

when it comes to JJP and stern fixing their current clear coat issues,

i know if they put their minds to it,
i know they really can do it.

but its gonna take money
a whole lotta spending money
its gonna take plenty of money
to do it right, child

its gonna take time
a whole lot of precious time
its gonna take patience and time, um
to do it, to do it, to do it, to do it, to do it
to do it right !

-1
#1113 3 months ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

I like my machines to be defect free out of the box. Not to look like this.

Of course, we all do.

I'm just saying, some of the issues people are freaking about - coil stops, shooter springs - these are 60 second fixes easily done.

I think we could all do with assuming positive intent. The manufacturers of these games are not twisting their mustaches thinking up evil ways to piss off pinball buyers. The folks in this industry do it because they love pinball - it's obviously a very tricky business to be in (as evidenced by the high profile flameouts of others who have tried.)

#1114 3 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Of course, we all do.
I'm just saying, some of the issues people are freaking about - coil stops, shooter springs - these are 60 second fixes easily done.
I think we could all do with assuming positive intent. The manufacturers of these games are not twisting their mustaches thinking up evil ways to piss off pinball buyers. The folks going this industry do it because they love pinball - it's obviously a very tricky business to be in (as evidenced by the high profile flameouts of others who have tried.)

Sure. Those are easy fixes I agree with you. But we are in a thread talking about clear coat issues. As a person who has bought 20+ NIB games, the clear on these games is absolutely terrible. I can live with a bubble here or there but when there is tearing and separation when the game has even been played I get a little pissed. Then you have people saying it’s not a big deal. Those are typically not the people buying the games and those that are probably don’t know any better.

10
#1115 3 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

You're missing out on a great game over a few extremely minor issues IMO. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Not only PF issues...node board issues...CPU issues. I've had them all, and my sample size is fairly small. In most cases, Stern has provided adequate support.

I will continue looking out for great NOB games, but NIB purchases are on hold (and I've been buying Stern NIB since 2004). Just picked up a NOB BM66 Premium that I could see/play. The reward for being patient is 3-fold: save $$, get a flawless PF, and get MUCH better code. Win/win/win. The excited newbies can take the baton from us patient old timers

#1116 3 months ago

Don’t get me wrong. I absolutely love this game but let’s compare a game that is 30+ years old to one that had no plays. Which looks better to you? The game that is 30+ years old or the one that was born on August 17th 2019.
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#1117 3 months ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

I like my machines to be defect free out of the box. Not to look like this.
I agree with Underlord.[quoted image][quoted image]

Did you chat with distributor/Stern and what are they willing to do?

#1118 3 months ago
Quoted from greenhornet:

when it comes to JJP and stern fixing their current clear coat issues,
i know if they put their minds to it,
i know they really can do it.
but its gonna take money
a whole lotta spending money
its gonna take plenty of money
to do it right, child
its gonna take time
a whole lot of precious time
its gonna take patience and time, um
to do it, to do it, to do it, to do it, to do it
to do it right !

I bet there ain’t no dimpling on dat Azz there! Just sayin

#1119 3 months ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Did you chat with distributor/Stern and what are they willing to do?

My distributor sent pictures to Stern. Still waiting for an answer.

Still waiting for an answer on my WONKA as well but that has been over a month.

Surprisingly my Black Knight Premium looks perfect.

#1120 3 months ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

My distributor sent pictures to Stern. Still waiting for an answer.
Still waiting for an answer on my WONKA as well but that has been over a month.
Surprisingly my Black Knight Premium looks perfect.

Will be interested in hearing what they do as this will affect my buying NIB decision.

Thx

#1121 3 months ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Will be interested in hearing what they do as this will affect my buying NIB decision.
Thx

I will keep you posted.

#1122 3 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

I think we need to ban all trucks.

You should see the threads about pedestrians causing paint damage over on Truckside...hoo boy, it's a mess!

#1123 3 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

You should see the threads about pedestrians causing paint damage over on Truckside...hoo boy, it's a mess!

Truckside lol. That was pretty good!

#1124 3 months ago

Pedestrian forum is called Walk, Don't Walk

#1125 3 months ago
Quoted from swampfire:

Here’s what I paid for my 3 NIB Sterns, in inflation-adjusted dollars (includes shipping & taxes):
2004 - LOTR - $5161
2013 - MET - $5176
2019 - JP2 - $5500
LOTR and MET came with monochrome DMDs, so I added ColorDMDs for $350 (show specials). Considering all that, I think Stern’s pricing has been pretty stable, with steady improvements in audio, graphics and electronics.

Agreed, not to hefty mark up over the years, but you can´t honestly say jp2 is even close to on par quality and electronics wise to the other two?

#1126 3 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

I might get hit by a truck years from now. Today, I'm having a great time playing a great game!

Of course if you're in a Tesla, you'll be fine since they are the best-built, highest quality vehicles there are. Just like JJP machines.

#1127 3 months ago
Quoted from NoQuarters:

Pedestrian forum is called Walk, Don't Walk

"Continued pedestrian damage issues with GMC and Ford"

#1128 3 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

twisting their mustaches thinking up evil ways to piss off

How much per machine for a good coil stop for fuksake? Nobody said evil.

#1129 3 months ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Of course if you're in a Tesla, you'll be fine since they are the best-built, highest quality vehicles there are. Just like JJP machines.

Those Teslas can avoid all accidents. They can see a wreck coming a mile away and steer away from it on their own.

They are sweet cars, i have a couple if friends that own them and they impressive. Super fast too!

#1130 3 months ago
Quoted from underlord:

I’ve got a recession free job. Planned it that way.

No fun. Lol

#1131 3 months ago
Quoted from underlord:

I’ve got a recession free job. Planned it that way.

Well ahh, wait until the emp strike.

#1132 3 months ago

You kidding? My job is pure man town.

I fix cars and trucks. Damned dirty, dangerous fun. Never outgrew my matchboxes.

#1133 3 months ago
Quoted from underlord:

You kidding? My job is pure man town.
I fix cars and trucks. Damned dirty, dangerous fun. Never outgrew my matchboxes.

Wait until the U.S. only has 2 car companies, Toyota and Honda. You will be out of a job then because they never break down. I heard thats gonna happen in like 2 years.

#1134 3 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

I might get hit by a truck years from now. Today, I'm having a great time playing a great game!

We can still play it on route but individually we don't have to be paying to buy inferior quality games to what we have known in the past to be an acceptable standard.

#1135 3 months ago
Quoted from Dr-pin:

Agreed, not to hefty mark up over the years, but you can´t honestly say jp2 is even close to on par quality and electronics wise to the other two?

I’m not sure what you mean. I think the quality is better in almost every way, especially compared to LOTR.

12
#1136 3 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

You're missing out on a great game over a few extremely minor issues IMO. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Nah, people can play it on location for $1, so they're not missing out on anything. Much cheaper than owning a $6-7k machine and can walk away from any clearcoat issues on the location machine without any heartache.

#1137 3 months ago
Quoted from Jackalwere:

Nah, people can play it on location for $1, so they're not missing out on anything. Much cheaper than owning a $6-7k machine and can walk away from any clearcoat issues on the location machine without any heartache.

Well, that's a fair point. For me, on location I usually can't hear the callouts, the machine is dirty and neglected, and at least one or two things are broken.
I do try and find machines on location when I want to try them out.

#1138 3 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Of course, we all do.
I'm just saying, some of the issues people are freaking about - coil stops, shooter springs - these are 60 second fixes easily done.
I think we could all do with assuming positive intent. The manufacturers of these games are not twisting their mustaches thinking up evil ways to piss off pinball buyers. The folks in this industry do it because they love pinball - it's obviously a very tricky business to be in (as evidenced by the high profile flameouts of others who have tried.)

I'm not freaking out. You are doing that thing you keep doing where you shift the blame from JJP/Stern to us. The point is these QC issues should not exist at all for the prices we are paying for a premium niche toy. And who knows what all we don't know about or how these tables will look in a year.

Your continued terrible logic and arguing in bad faith in these threads actually has me hoping your table is a huge piece of shit that completely falls apart. Enjoy!

#1139 3 months ago
Quoted from tpir:

I'm not freaking out. You are doing that thing you keep doing where you shift the blame from JJP/Stern to us. The point is these QC issues should not exist at all for the prices we are paying for a premium niche toy. And who knows what all we don't know about or how these tables will look in a year.
Your continued terrible logic and arguing in bad faith in these threads actually has me hoping your table is a huge piece of shit that completely falls apart. Enjoy!

You know what they say about opinions. They’re like something or other.

He must’ve really taken a piss in your Cheerios.

2293455A-6A70-4F49-AE77-3F2977C45BA7.gif
#1140 3 months ago
Quoted from tpir:

I'm not freaking out. You are doing that thing you keep doing where you shift the blame from JJP/Stern to us. The point is these QC issues should not exist at all for the prices we are paying for a premium niche toy. And who knows what all we don't know about or how these tables will look in a year.
Your continued terrible logic and arguing in bad faith in these threads actually has me hoping your table is a huge piece of shit that completely falls apart. Enjoy!

I'm not shifting the blame. I'm having empathy. And my specific point was that lumping in issues that are cheap and easy to fix (the coil stops and shooter springs) are not a reason to blow off the whole thing. I know pinside loves their axes to grind, but I'm just saying maybe these manufacturers care too? And maybe they don't do things that upset the community on purpose?

#1141 3 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

I'm not shifting the blame. I'm having empathy. And my specific point was that lumping in issues that are cheap and easy to fix (the coil stops and shooter springs) are not a reason to blow off the whole thing. I know pinside loves their axes to grind, but I'm just saying maybe these manufacturers care too? And maybe they don't do things that upset the community on purpose?

This thread is about playfield pooling and chipping. You're arguing springs and stops.

#1142 3 months ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

Don’t get me wrong. I absolutely love this game but let’s compare a game that is 30+ years old to one that had no plays. Which looks better to you? The game that is 30+ years old or the one that was born on August 17th 2019.
[quoted image][quoted image]

The old one has cracking around the inserts! Just kidding, I know, its 30 years old.

#1143 3 months ago
Quoted from RonSS:

This thread is about playfield pooling and chipping. You're arguing springs and stops.

In @zaphx 's defence, he didn't bring the springs and stops into the mix - he was responding to another pinsider who did.

#1144 3 months ago

The heart of the matter to me is what is a reasonable expectation. Is it reasonable to expect dimpling on clearcoat? I kind of think so, especially on the newer faster machines that have lots of air balls. Is pooling, chipping, graining acceptable on a relatively new machine? I don’t think so. I would be pissed off for sure. Pinball is special because it’s mechanical. Everything wears out over time when physical surfaces are in contact. There has to be a happy medium here guys and reasonable expectations based on real and viable materials.

#1145 3 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

I think JJP's move on current games with issues is to provide a new unpopulated play field. Its not much, but at least its something. Apparently Stern has done nothing, which is pretty disappointing. Zero chance I'll be buying any NIB Stern or JJP games in the future until they both adequately address this issue. Apparently pooling is the new normal....I'd be ok with the pooling issue if the area in question didn't chip...The problem is we don't know what will happen

I spent $9500 on my Pirates and it has pooling in multiple areas but no chips yet. I've installed in star posts under the slings and rubber washers to cover the problem.

JJP has done a few high profile phone calls to some with the worst chipping and offered a free PF. Great PR move but is it an offer to everybody with issues?

My PF will chip at some point and I paid primo amounts of cash IMO. I am going to make a claim with JJP and see if I get a free PF which I would think would be the minimum they could offer. If this happens, at least when I sell in the future, my machine will have the issue but I can offer the free PF as compensation.

However, the current condition is that the PF must be chipped to get a free PF.

I'll see what happens, if there are any legs to this offer from JJP or if it was just a few high profile settlements to help calm the pitchfork riots.

#1146 3 months ago
Quoted from Pinballer67:

I spent $9500 on my Pirates and it has pooling in multiple areas but no chips yet. I've installed in star posts under the slings and rubber washers to cover the problem.
JJP has done a few high profile phone calls to some with the worst chipping and offered a free PF. Great PR move but is it an offer to everybody with issues?
My PF will chip at some point and I paid primo amounts of cash IMO. I am going to make a claim with JJP and see if I get a free PF which I would think would be the minimum they could offer. If this happens, at least when I sell in the future, my machine will have the issue but I can offer the free PF as compensation.
However, the current condition is that the PF must be chipped to get a free PF.
I'll see what happens, if there are any legs to this offer from JJP or if it was just a few high profile settlements to help calm the pitchfork riots.

I've not read what is or isn't included under this new JJP offer. It wouldn't hurt to submit a ticket even if it's just so it's documented should it chip. If the rumors are true and Mirco is having to pay some or all of the cost of these playfields, JJP may be lenient.

#1147 3 months ago

Aren't you guys worried that the new playfields being offered will have the same pooling issue?

#1148 3 months ago
Quoted from Toads:

Aren't you guys worried that the new playfields being offered will have the same pooling issue?

Yes

#1149 3 months ago
Quoted from Damagio:

The heart of the matter to me is what is a reasonable expectation. Is it reasonable to expect dimpling on clearcoat? I kind of think so, especially on the newer faster machines that have lots of air balls. Is pooling, chipping, graining acceptable on a relatively new machine? I don’t think so. I would be pissed off for sure.

At some level, this is really simple. Some percentage of the PF's have defects. Seems like the % of defective PF's has gone up and Stern isn't screening them. If they are building 1000 machines, it would be interesting to know how many "extra" PF's they order to compensate for pulling defective PF's. The QA process would be fascinating for Stern to speak about. Unfortunately, they are a really tight lipped company and I don't expect any big "mea culpa" with details on the QA process. I also wouldn't be surprised if the PF producers haven't seen margin increases for years (which doesn't motivate them to do A+ work).

#1150 3 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

The QA process would be fascinating for Stern to speak about.

With them switching to water based clear, this is more of a QE failure than a QA issue. QE needs to fix this and create new QA processes to detect issues before the playfields are populated.

This does kind of remind me of the RoHS cluster F that happened 15 years ago. The new environmentally friendly lead free solder promised to be just as good as the old stuff, but soon every new TV or stereo I bought was failing within a year or two. Previously TVs and receivers were reliable as hell for many years. I bought a Sony AVR in 2004 along with a 32 inch TV. Both of them were nothing but trouble. Every time something would fail, I'd open it up and flow some leaded solder onto components until it started working again. One thing for sure, Sony never had a mea culpa or gave me new boards to replace the failed boards. ASUS never gave me new motherboards to replace the ones with bad capacitors either. Eventually RoHS worked out fine, but initially it sure filled a lot of landfills with electronics. I suspect that playfield manufacturers are scrambling right now to find what works and purge supplies of the clear that doesn't work.

Personally I would be happy with Stern selling me a new playfield at their cost because all I have is pooling and it is not bad at all. They should send corrected playfields for free in more extreme cases that include cracking.

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