To replace the one with the damage around the posts where the clear and ink is lifting.

Well, obviously you didn't get a personalized phone call before receiving your motor. Apparently that takes the sting of doing the swap yourself away.

yeah it's called 'parts' vs 'parts and labor'. Never had to pay for the technician to replace the part in your HVAC system? Or pay to replace a failed component in your car that failed under the parts warranty?

The significance here (not covered by your poor analogy) is the fact the product is faulty brand new... and not just something being replaced by a vendor.

How long before that video gets deleted from YouTube?

In 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

This is a bit disingenuous. If your BMW's engine blows up, it ceases to function as a car. If your playfield has clearcoat issues, it still operates and earns as an amusement device.

Clearcoat chipping on a playfield is probably better compared to clearcoat chipping on your car. Unfortunately Pinball distributors don't have full service departments with paint shops. And it's way harder to schlep your pinball machine around than it is to drive your BMW to the paint shop.

This is a growing pain of pinball moving from a mostly operator-purchased product for commercial use to a collectible item for the home. Stern, Williams, others, they could survive scrutiny from a bad batch of playfields because operators put them on location, earned a ton of money for a few years, then warehoused them. Didn't matter if the clearcoat chipped. Game still earned.

I asked Gary Stern at ReplayFX 2018 about why they kept selling through distributors and not direct, because finding a distributor isn't an obvious thing. But I think it makes sense, Stern does not want to ramp up a large customer service network and deal with every imperfection in a commercial, hand assembled piece of equipment. I also don't know if the major manufacturers could sell at the prices they do or achieve profitability if they could possibly be sunk by a bad run of playfields.

This pinball thing is more akin to BMW sending you a new engine block and the a connecting rod that snapped and grenaded your engine. Remove engine, remove everything from the old engine and install it on the new one. Don't forget $200.00 or more worth of gaskets & seals. Also hundreds of dollars worth of special tools.....

A couple of years ago, this would have been a disaster. Now it’s “thank god its not pooling and chipping”

(But I don’t agree with you that this is somewhat normal and expected either)

EDIT:
<foghorn leghorn mode on>
It’s a joke, son
<foghorn leghorn mode off>

Man that's brutal Tom....

Really? I bought my NIB Tron Pro, last run, from Stern in April 2013. It dimpled as I played it. Was fine since I mean most of the games I had ever seen were dimpled. How is that a disaster?

The scoop wore too. That's what happens with pinball machines. They get played. If you don't want a game to wear, don't play it. Now, games with whole chunks of art coming up after low plays is a different matter. But pinball machines dimple. there's plenty of threads about that. Calling it a disaster is strange.

People l love doing business with you, being the push over that you are obviously

Mine is fine, just dimples
At this point I feel very lucky

Someone made the comment a while back about Stern LE’s saying “i can’t believe the playfields are the straw that broke the camels back”. We should have asked more from these LE’s as collectors.
I looked past Node boards sustainment, more money for different decals, noisy fans, coil stops blah blah blah. I cancelled my JPLE. We shouldn’t be paying this kind of money for ANY game that was made with such an aggressively low BOM. Buisness 101-rule one is value must be perceived by the consumer. Value can be design, theme, even animations in this case, but this is the straw that broke the camels back for me.

I don't have the skill to do a swap, or the money to pay for a swap to be done, unless I cancel my Stern purchases I already have mapped out over the next year or 2. But maybe this is the future of NIB and l just need to be content not buying them anymore. Either way it's not good for me, the hobby, the distributor, or the manufacturer. Might be good for people who install playfields for money...I'd say Mirco needs to make it right, but how can you trust their product going forward?
I there going to be class action suit do you think?

I'm afraid to buy any mods or upgrades now. I guess that's on hold. This is going to have ripple effect...

As a manufacturer, if you cannot support your customers by either:

A. Making them a 100% solid product or...
B. Making your customers whole for putting out a shoddy product (especially when you had a previous game showcasing these issues)

Then maybe you do not need to exist. Maybe you've been on borrowed time (read: investors), and the sand in your hour glass is running out. Prices going up at an asinine rate hasn't helped your case at all.

I'd rather have no pinball machine then one falling apart with clear breaking, art chipping, decals peeling, ghosting inserts, etc. How did B/W do it for SO LONG without any issues? I get B/W cost-cut too (looking at you, IDC connectors); however, wow, the bumps this hobby has been through the last 3 years is nuts.

Expo is going to be very interesting. Who's ready for Elvira, BTTF, GNR, TMNT, whatever other dream theme they may choose to release to help you forget about ClearGate....? You ready to TRULY say you're cutting Stern/JJP off until "this is fixed" ? We'll see.....

Because the assertion they did not issues is false. Horrible registration.... cabinet inks that faded in short order... misassembled games... mechs that broke with normal usage... ghosting inserts... they were all things b/w went through too.

I think many posters live in the fantasy world they dream up on the web.

I’m with ya. This was Jurassic Park, made by a great designer, with great gameplay and annimations. All the boxes were checked if we added our own sounds... But its Stern (maybe JJP), nobody else. Not CGC, Not American, not Spooky. The pingulp and balls i ordered for my JPLE will just have to go on another game. Or I’ll keep what i have and/or hit the road to location play. This was a game everybody wanted. This time it was different.

Bally and Williams, when they were real, stand-alone companies were publically traded in the '70's forward. They gained great Capital to expand and diversify. Selling slot machines as Gambling expanded sure helped Bally. Williams (Seeburg, the Parent company) stumbled with them at first, stopped making them then got back into the business in the '90's.

When they had issues, they had real, parts stocking, service department equipped distributors who handled repairs, kitting of repair parts and would install parts if needed. They repaired boards, monitors etc. in-house quickly. The service department was very busy with ten technicians and three parts guys. The manufacturers paid the distributors to make problems go away.

I briefly worked for Bally Midwest (Former Empire Distributing) in their Livonia, Michigan branch as a board technician. I left the route operator for more money and what I thought would be a chance to grow. A week later, the two owners of the route and their silent partner came in and talked to the GM of the branch (Everybody's pal, Hank Heiser) asking if he would be pissed if they offered me a deal I couldn't refuse. Or, they asked him to fire me so I would come crawling back to them. I was called in the office and they made me a really nice offer so I went back. Of course the business later went South with the video game crash so I eventually left the business, re-entered college and never looked back. Other than as a hobbyist and one of Clay's slaves at the VFW.

Plus the business was booming in the early 90's. They were selling 20k machines for some models. They could afford to build them better. I have W/B machines that were routed to shit, and they still look great. I've seen Stern's routed to shit, and I see plywood.

I still think that there is an argument that Stern could and should put more value into their machines for the cost. I just had to have IMDNLE, but I do have some buyer's remorse for the price and quality. Great game. Love Keith's design and the gameplay, but it's so light that nudging requires a finger. Plus the materials just aren't as well made as my older machines. JJP is a step up, but they have their shortcomings too. The old stuff is still king to me, and I'll vote with my wallet.

Thats not the same at all. Playfield chipping is purely cosmetic.

It’s the equivalent of driving the car and the paint chipping under the wheel wells more easily than expected. Doesn’t affect drivability, it’s purely cosmetic and if it wasn’t happening so soon could be considered normal wear and tear.

Your analogy is equivalent to the Spike CPU dying, making the game unplayable. A simple swap fixes everything.

That’s why there needs to be a reasonable and equitable solution. It’s not as black and white as some like to believe.

I’m all for a good carguement, but in this case pinball is nothing like the car industry - it’s a tiny boutique hobby making discretionary toys. The car industry on the other hand is huge, hugely profitable, making objects essential to everyday life for every human on the planet. If the car fails it has very real, often life threatening, consequences.

The cost of recalls and warranty claims to the car industry are huge, but due to the scale of these companies, it’s easily absorbed.

Pinball is tiny by comparison.

I’m not saying this is not an issue. It is. But I think the solution needs to be reasonable for all parties. Washers for the posts is not satisfactory. A new unpopulated PF in my opinion is. If this issue is as widespread as Pinside would indicate, fully populated Playfield swaps for every game with pooling or chipping around posts would bankrupt some manufacturers in this industry.

Guitar manufacturing is a small business, and I look at Paul Reed Smith. PRS guitars are built in Maryland, and are some of the finest wood instruments in existence. Their quality is also top notch. My point is how are they able to produce such a fantastic items that last, yet I’d venture to say are the same size as Stern and JJP. IMHO, I think it comes down to their passion of quality and giving a crap that the owners name is attached to the instrument.

In this case I think the manufacturers have been caught out by supplier error. If we take this argument to it’s logical ending, Stern and JJP should be claiming the complete cost of mass populated Playfield swaps against Mirco (or whoever). There’s no way a small supplier like Mirco could bear the brunt of such a claim. They’d be struggling just to provide replacement Playfields I would think.

I think it comes down to the complexity. Building a guitar has several orders of magnitude fewer steps than building a pinball machine. Far fewer potential points of failure.

Well said. I agree. I bet most won’t even repopulate the playfields it’s a ton of work.

Guitargument!

Where’s Levi, he’ll love that!

Having built a few guitars from scratch (from bare wood) there isn’t the complexities of a pinball machine.

Once the guitar is finished, tested and looking flawless in the factory, you bung it in a case and ship it. You’re unlikely to ever see it again, as there really isn’t a lot to go wrong with it. If it works in the factory, it’ll likely work for ever.

Pinball machines ... drive them across town, and half the time they don’t work properly when they get there! Lol!

rd

Another way to look at the engine analogy
is that the playfield and it's appearance and
integrity are the Heart of a pinball machine like an engine
is for a car.

It’s not going to be what they announce at Expo that will put Cleargate behind us; It will be how they answer for it. At minimum both Stern and JJP are going to have to articulate a plan forward that will satisfy the community and their lawyers.

A dream theme won’t make up for a nightmare playfield. I have been waiting for Stern Elvira 3 and JJP Toy Story for a long time. But I’m not buying either unless I know that the playfields are fixed and the manufacturer will make it right if they aren’t (and an unpopulated playfield won’t cut it).

I am undecided about going to Expo this year but if I do I will make my stand of no NIB purchases until this is resolved known and hope that others will do the same. If reports of sales slowdowns for JP2 and Wonka because of Cleargate are true, then we should be getting attention. Anyone concerned needs to keep their wallets closed until Cleargate is history.

You could buy a NIB Adams Family for around 2K. I find it very hard to believe a 90s W/B quality pin couldn’t be made for 10K.

If it pisses off Levi, I’ll double down lol. But In regard to the guitars, I don’t mean the complexity versus a pinball machine. Obviously the pinball machine is more complex. I’m Talking about the wood lol. And for guitars that can cost what a Stern LE or JJP costs, they go out of their way to ensure perfection. And to add to that, PRS had an issue with a coating that was used on some of there instruments and recalled them and refinished them. Now back to your regularly scheduled carguments.

This is not unlike a car in which the floor on the driver's side is clear coated. You notice there is some pooling and chipping of the clearcoat where the accelerator and brake pedals are attached to the chassis (especially on the side on which the pedal is depressed). You call your car dealer and they get in touch with the manufacturer who offers to send you a new floor chassis and says you will have to install it yourself, WTF!!!

...OK, did I take the metaphor too far?

I bought my first couple of pins there. A NIB Space Shuttle and NIB Star Trek: TNG. A couple of video games, too. I loved popping in whenever I could to see all of the new toys.

All this pooling talk has had me checking out the pinballs in my collection
I have pooling on the slingshot posts on both Batman 66 (2016 build) & Star Wars (2017 build)
Tonnes of games have been put on both machines, with no signs of chipping or wear
So make of that what you will, I never would have even noticed the pooling, had all this recent discussion not taken place
For the record, the pooling on both of my machines looks to be on par with the examples others have posted

I dont think most people would care about the pooling as long as they knew that it wouldn't end up chipping someday. My IMDN however did chip and that sucks. Who knows what that chip might lead to down the road?

That’s probably true but the new playfield salvages *some* of the resale value. Given the option of buying a used machine (with pooling, chipping, and dimpling) with a NOS playfield is much more appealing than just a used machine.

But I agree with most here - it seems like a half-measure for compensation on a very expensive machine. I think what a lot of people are forgetting - especially with the car analogies - is that for most home users, the art has value.

Well, Deeproot couldn't have asked for a better time and place to reveal their game.

The door is wide open. Can they walk on through?

My IMDN has noticeable pooling around all the large stem posts but has not chipped so far.
If / when it does, I’m sure I will be told this is due to wear and tear even though it’s low play.
I’ve been enjoying the pin and the clear feels rock hard. Haven’t been stressing over this too much but now that it’s on the radar.....I feel overall these issues have to be addressed, especially when guys new pins are chipped fresh off the assembly line after minimal plays.
The pin is still under warranty in UK
I guess if I was maybe offered a free unpopulated playfield in the event it chipped later down the line then that would be a welcome bonus.....since it’s not at the chipping stage.
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Hopefully it wont ever chip. Thats the problem, we just dont know whats going to happen down the road. The pooling doesn't bother me at all as long as it doesn't chip. Another thing, what happens if you had to remove a post with pooling around it? Will it pull up the clearcoat and the artwork when you go to remove it? Another who knows situation i guess.

Yep, exactly, I toyed with that idea then thought better of it. Didn’t fancy the idea of having clear and ink lifting with the hex nuts. This is why Jack at JJP informed his customers recently on the Podcast not to remove posts when investigating playfield issues. I wonder why........
I guess I’ll be cleaning and waxing around the posts. I also moved a ball towards the posts and the diameter hits the post and ball doesn’t touch the clear at base of post. However vibrations of hits to the posts could potentially cause the clear to crack around the posts.

Ive thought of the exact same thing. When the ball hits a post, it has to put a ton of stress in the area around that post i would think.

Already forgotten about nib for the foreseeable future. Went back to collecting B/W and pre-garbage Sterns and JJP’s. May pick up a Hobbit soon.

I thought inflation would have a bigger effect, but $2000 then is only equivalent to about $3700 today. Economies of scale definitely have a major impact, but B/W had a lot more corporate overheads than Stern or JJP. Pinball could/should be very profitable at current prices, but I think the issue is that unlike Stern, or even Spooky, JJP hasn’t been able to maintain stable demand/consistency in its factory which can be a killer. Dealing properly with the quality issues will cause some real short term pain, but losing customer loyalty and constant demand fluctuations from poor quality could be a death spiral. Hopefully JJP, and Stern, will come out with a more transparent, customer focused solution very soon.

Think I'm out on JP2 no matter what Stern does or says. Too many quality issues on machines in the wild and it would be silly of me to think they are all going to be addressed. They couldn't even figure out a proper post for in front of the upper flipper?

Also, while I realize they are minor issues overall, the cognitive dissonance I would experience having to buy the proper plunger spring and non-shit coil stops when I am already spending $7,000+ is too much for me to handle.

After so long of diminishing QC and cheaper BOM? The dagger in the heart was stupid price increases with every release, yet we still made excuses. Damn, now I sound like a negative Nelly. I’m sorry gang.

Hopefully survival mode will kick in with them and sound judgement based on long term viability with a passion for the product will be used going forward. Competition is supposed to be good, right?

You're missing out on a great game over a few extremely minor issues IMO. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

You may be right, but if the pf starts flaking off in chunks, too risky and price is too high. Brand new they’ve got serious issues, you really think years from now they’ll be ok?

I think JJP's move on current games with issues is to provide a new unpopulated play field. Its not much, but at least its something. Apparently Stern has done nothing, which is pretty disappointing. Zero chance I'll be buying any NIB Stern or JJP games in the future until they both adequately address this issue. Apparently pooling is the new normal....I'd be ok with the pooling issue if the area in question didn't chip...The problem is we don't know what will happen

I might get hit by a truck years from now. Today, I'm having a great time playing a great game!