You build another game with the old Playfield.

Then they die, so they should be very careful not to screw up.

That's between JJP/Stern and Merco. Large or small it's never the consumers responsibility to take the hit.

So what’s the consensus on the best washers to use under the posts for these games? What size/material?

But they did screw up. The solution isn’t for them to fold up shop. This serves no one any good except for a few who would want less competition.

Agree. So they have to find the best way to continue to be in business. What jjp has now done is one of the few options that can keep them going. Correct the mistakes, don’t let it happen again and make a better product.

I think #2 or #3 are the only acceptable options for either company. I just believe only one company can handle it, fiscally.

This assumes that the customers labor time is worth zero dollars per hour This solution is always a win for Stern or JJP.

They know from past experiences that this is the panacea that calms the irate customer. Sure you probably won't end up installing it but you'll feel you got some added value from this fiasco. Then if you feel like you can't sell it for what it should be worth you can peddle the PF separately... or offer to throw it in at a higher cost.

Stern did this for me when I bought a last run TSPP and the silkscreen had degraded to the point that there were splotches of paint under the rather nice CC. They warned me the new PF would also have the splotches and that they weren't going to re-do the silkscreen but they'd hand pick me the brightest one they could find.

And they did... Homer's car is almost blazing red in this version. The wood and CC on the original still look brand new but while I was disappointed in the splotches I appreciated having a spare PF that could keep or sell one day.

Probably the only outcome one can expect in this situation. Not ideal and not what you initially paid for but maybe the best that JJP can afford to do. And after seeing patches of bare wood on some of these new PF's... the LEAST they could do frankly.

Except it's literally not corrected. Anything short of a fixed & assembled machine is not acceptable.

If anyone thinks otherwise, ask yourself this question. 2 machines are up for sale for the same price, which do you buy?

#1 - A machine with the playfield pooling and chipping, with a new fixed unpopulated playfield.
#2 - Same machine but with just a fixed populated playfield.

Since it's obviously a rhetorical question, the next question is how much cheaper will #1 be than #2? My guess is at least 400-500$. So even with option 1, Stern/JJP is straight up screwing a nib buyer out of 400-500$ (minimum, probably more like 1k). Unacceptable imo.

The customer foots the bill for their mistake.

from a jersey jack factory tour:

at the 11:45 mark, jack comments on his companys pinball playfields:

"so uh our playfields come in these boxes and, you know, they get QCd. if theres anything wrong with them, they get rejected. and really these playfields, um they made by mirco in germany. he does an amazing job. and uh, theres a significant cost to these. but this is your whole game. this is what youre looking at. this is the building block of the game. so if its not done the right way, uh you know your game is kinda worthless."

for those discussing the time required for a playfield swap, at the end of the hobbit assembly line [26:49], jack answers the question "how many hours does it take to make a machine start to finish ?" "it takes about 24 hours, 24 man/woman hours".

I think the questions tilts towards #1 if both machines shows signs of wear and How much.

Ridiculous to think or expect most people paying 10k for a new machine have the time or expertise to undertake a big project like that. Bottom line is they shouldn't have to given they just paid a huge amount of money for a brand new product that shouldn't have major parts and/or design flaws to begin with.

I'm glad you have the time and skill to do this on your own but I do think you are in the minority here. Regardless, that really isn't the problem or point. The problem is the time and cost required to do a full playfield swap shouldn't be on a customer who just paid a significant sum of money for a brand new product.

That may be true but if these issues continue on brand new products from these manufacturers, I think I speak for not only myself but many in the pinball community that I will not buy any game NIB until they have have demonstrated their QC is where it needs to be and they are making games without major defects or design flaws.

I'm sorry but it isn't acceptable for any manufacturer in any industry to charge 7-10k for a product with major defects and then put a huge part of the cost and time required to fix the problem on the customer. Some on this community may be okay with that but I think enough are not that things need to chanfe... soon.

I completely agree in a perfect world every person affected would get a complete replacement at no cost. The reality is that would be crushing to the industry. A free replacement playfield should allow everyone to enjoy their machine and help maintain value. I could live with the replacement. I never said everyone should just accept it and shut up. All I said was I think people should be fine as far as value if they sold. If this isn’t acceptable to you by all means sue them or try and negotiate a solution your happy with.

It's very easy for someone who isn't affected by the problem to tell other people they should be ok with it. And of course, you'll expect a discount on the machine when it shows up second hand.

I never told anyone what they should do or how they should feel. Does anyone actually read what people post or is it always if your not with us your against us. I just posted saying I thought having the extra playfield is going to increase the value and I was the guy that wasn’t going to be asking for a discount as a buyer. I just tried to be positive and tell people affected not to worry there are other pinsiders that a swap isn’t a big deal willing to buy.

In the meantime, please take all issues up with the manufacturers, not your distributer, he is just in business to sell the games and he did not make the games himself and he has no control.

I like my distributer, I hung out with him a while recently, and when I arrived he was on a painstaking call to Stern about a buyer that was just very bad. His hair is gray now, and I poked fun.

Yes it damn sucks there are any issues at all, but please respect other humans. I first hand seen my friend age 30 years in 6 months, and he does not make any machines he just sells them.

In my experience (not in pinball), the manufacturer wants you to follow a chain of command through your distributors. Otherwise, why can’t we just buy the machines direct from the manufacturer and bypass the middleman.

This “chain of command” is a construct of the manufacturers to insulate themselves from this exact scenario. The manufacturers are out ZERO money and they leave the distributor holding the bag while dealing with disappointed customers.

So you have a product that is under warranty.
Then you get a replacement playfield.
You now start swapping your components to your new playfield and screw your machine in the process.
You call your distributor.......
“Sorry Sir but you have now voided your warranty”!
Isn’t this a bit like opening up your VCR machine and peeling that label off that’s says warranty void if removed then tampering with all the internals Do me a favour.....

Take a look at Stern’s website.... what do you see regarding “warranty” / “warranties” .... please post any results you find.

Consumer law different in UK
When we purchase a NIB pin we are covered for 2 years through our retailer / distributor. Our contract is with them, we don’t get into discussions with the manufacturer direct.
Unfortunately the retailer may end up with the rough end of the deal if the manufacturer- in this case Stern or JJP don’t do the right thing.
Which is why retailers here are rightly so getting a bit nervous over this whole issue.

Refreshing for the consumer - understandably frightening for the distributor.

yep, as a retailer (who works in a different field than pinball), having 0% of the responsibility for manufacturing the defect and 100% of the legal liability...happy I don't conduct business in the UK. Sounds fucked up to me.

That's not how that is going to work. The manufacturer will be liable towards the distributor/dealer, of course, "even" in the UK.

Just like anything and everywhere else, the customer needs to be protected and cannot be sent around, especially when the manufacturer sits abroad, nice and cosy.

Imagine your toaster breaks and your store says "take that up with China". No, you get to return for exchange or refund (your choice) anywhere I know of and have been to. The store takes it up with the distributor it got it from, the distributor with the manufacturer. The manufacturer can always approach the part vendor at fault for remedy.

If the distributor doesn't like it then get out, this is the risk of doing business after all.

I really hope this playfield shit gets worked out. I got 2 bad playfields from Stern and the one replacement the wood sank around the magnet. So really 3 bad playfields. October 2016 was my last NIB purchase. I was so excited to get a Wonka then this. I pulled my deposit and refuse to buy any piece of shit these guys make regardless of how cool it looks. It's been hard as all these new titles come out. Getting burned on these is even worse for me. So I'm out and staying out and as others do the same these problems will either go away or clear coat will kill pinball.

BINGO. Winner winner chicken dinner!
Right from the horse's mouth

If it's not done right, your game is kinda worthless....
Down the line if we accept the current situation, what happens when it chips and peels.
I don't want jjp or stern to go out of business, but they need to be liable for defective products. The size of your company doesn't give you a pass on manufacturing defects.

I do trust that they will get these issues fixed now that the community has made a stand. But, it's how they take care of those already effected that sort of matters more to me.

Generally agree with the consensus as well- sadly out for the time being.
I just sold 2 games to make room for a JP2 Premium and possibly a Wonka LE.
Now it’s a waiting game to see if both manufacturers fully remedy the issue.

In my humble opinion, for those with defective playfields, sending a un-populated pf is not an ideal solution.
I personally don’t have the skills nor the time to do this job myself; and shelling out $1k-$2k to have it done (if I could even find someone to do it) doesn’t seem right.

I'm not sure. Many on these problem playfield threads say that the JJP playfields will be easier, taking less time due to modularity, added connectors etc. I know I would not perform a playfield swap for less than $2K. I would need the complete machine as I'd need to make sure it properly fit and seats in the cabinet as well as every light and switch worked.

I may value my time differently than others so if someone will do it for $1k and it's top-notch work, that's the way to go. Also note, I am not offering to swap playfields at this time. My personal schedule is booked for two years.

Someone should make a documentary about a person that goes across the world doing playfield swaps. The people, the places, the stories, the time.

Without having to clean, replace parts, reflow solder, stop to order more parts etc 20 hours is no problem...

Edit: I responded without reading further, looks like plenty of others have made the same point...

That video is incredibly damning for Jack. He said the PF is the whole machine. Backing up those who call the PF the heart of every machine. That video alone would sink Jack if there ever was a court case. I would tell Jack I wanted a populated PF or refund on my whole machine. And I would send that video clip to him. These manufacturers are unbelievable. And it looks like it finally caught up to them. Good for the customers. I would keep pushing to be made whole by JJP.

I think it would go a long way if JJP fully records a PF swap with detailed pictures, video and step by step directions so that people have an easier time.

Really? A video would not help me one bit, I lack the skill

The issue most people will have is not the actual process of moving components from playfield A to playfield B...it will be the prep work (drilling, removing clear from hole locations, resealing) that will be the most daunting. This is where most "incidents" would occur, such as chipping/cracking of the clear.
That being said I guess I just shot down my own statement that 20 hours is enough time...add another 4 hours for new playfield prep.

Oh jeez I figured they would at least send it drilled.

They are, but usually full of clearcoat. The locations of the surface screws that hold ball guides and such are just dimpled...you need to remove some clear, pre-drill, and reseal...for every screw

It's on the manufacturers to put the confidence back into their buyers and if they fail doing that it's going to be a world of hurt for them.

A spare playfield to lay behind my game that is chipping that I'll never swap myself isn't going to get my business.

A lot of people won't have the space and equipment to do these swaps either even if they could do the physical labor.

I agree, I misread this. Consumer is always protected, of course and the retailer or distributor is the first line of defence/refund. And ultimate liability resides with the manufacturer.

I haven't had a chance to completely look over the PF but from what I have seen so far the holes that need resessing are milled after the clear. I've done probably 20 PF swaps and IM looks easier than TAF. Mylared areas came with. Incase you are wondering yes I paid full replacement price.

20190906_195234 (resized).jpg

Would be nice to know what is going on behind the scenes. With the playfields being bought by outside suppliers rather than being made and clearcoated in house, this problem really should be made right by the playfield suppliers themselves. If the playfields do not meet the specifications put forth by JJP when they purchased them, then there is certainly a case. Would be interesting to know if Mirco or whoever made and clearcoated these defective playfields agreed to supply replacement playfields and JJP is simply handing them out?

my engine has blown up in my car. BMW dropped a new engine off and I'm doing the swap myself.

Are you guys serious? A replacement playfield on its own is +nowhere+ NEAR an acceptable solution to this. Please please please for the love of god stop saying it is.

Cheers,
Neil.

why did you get another playfield already?

any sensible trader backs that liability off when they contract to be retailer for their product... Its not rocket science! This law is across all of Europe.

Neil.

Personally it's a shame that the deep pocketed guys or the operators keep buying at this stage.

I feel sorry for JJP and Stern but it's up to them to take it up with whoever makes their pfs or if made in-house then it's a very steep learning curve, but if we keep buying defective shit they'll keep churning it out. How long ago did stern first have issues? Why would they care when we apparently don't?

actually it's better than that. The sales of goods act in the UK covers you for ++SIX++ years. If you can demonstrate that the product had a defect then the retailer needs to tackle it. Stern made my day with the service bulletins on faulty node boards as they admitted there was a fault with them so I'm totally unworried about node board failures!

Neil.

Not over here. Manufacturer has the ultimate liability, as the party who manufactured the good being sold.

A retailer or distributor has reasonable cause to expect that the product they are selling is devoid of defect. The onus is not on a retailer to vet every product they sell to determine if it is defective or dangerous.

Customer who paid retailer obtains money back from retailer, first line of defence. But the retailer is entitled to make a claim against the manufacturer. Unless it is a high volume product recall, the legal costs would not justify any legal action against the manufacturer if the manufacturer didn't refund the retailer via "good will".

In a worst case scenario and there is a product recall, the manufacturer is liable 100%. Retailers in North America are the front line and must refund customers but they do not assume legal responsibility for the quality or safety of products they are selling.

yeah I feel for you guys over there!