(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

3 months ago



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#951 3 months ago

Yesterday at first I thought it was good that Jack called and offered those effected a new playfield then I got to thinking if it were me I wouldn't be happy with a un-populated playfield that I have to do a pf swap on. These people paid a lot of money for these games and didn't sign up for a "build it yourself kit game" at a reduced price.

I think I am out on NIB JJP games due to price increase and what I consider to be a sub-par remedy for a problem that the consumer had nothing to do with but takes the shaft in the end. What Stern decides to do will determine if I will consider any of their upcoming NIB games. For what these damn games cost now a days it's sickening to see all the problems. In the meantime I'm really enjoying my cheaper solid state machines at a fraction of the price of these new "self-destructing" games.

#952 3 months ago

If jjp offers me an unpopulated playfield for free as a resolution for my pooling issue, I would be happy with that outcome. Fortunately I have the skills to do the swap and would enjoy it. Then if I ever sell the game I can list that as a major selling point over most other pirates with issues and used playfields. That's just me though

#953 3 months ago

Can't you just take the actual cash value instead of another PF that will bubble and chip? If there's people that can't do the PF swap, seems the better option for them would be a partial refund equal to the ACV on the proposed 'replacement' playfield.

#954 3 months ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

Can't you just take the actual cash value instead of another PF that will bubble and chip? If there's people that can't do the PF swap, seems the better option for them would be a partial refund equal to the ACV on the proposed 'replacement' playfield.

JJP will make sure any replacement playfields moving forward don't have this soft clear issue. I don't speak for the company and have no inside information, but there is no way they'd send out playfields with issues under this program. Those that already bought and were refunded, those might have this issue still

#955 3 months ago
Quoted from pindude80:

Yesterday at first I thought it was good that Jack called and offered those effected a new playfield then I got to thinking if it were me I wouldn't be happy with a un-populated playfield that I have to do a pf swap on. These people paid a lot of money for these games and didn't sign up for a "build it yourself kit game" at a reduced price.
I think I am out on NIB JJP games due to price increase and what I consider to be a sub-par remedy for a problem that the consumer had nothing to do with but takes the shaft in the end. What Stern decides to do will determine if I will consider any of their upcoming NIB games. For what these damn games cost now a days it's sickening to see all the problems. In the meantime I'm really enjoying my cheaper solid state machines at a fraction of the price of these new "self-destructing" games.

They are both off my NIB list. Stern has not even acknowledged the issue, head in the sand isn't going to make it go away.

11
#956 3 months ago

They should give guys the option A) replace with populated playfield for those who want a mint game B) send a spare playfield, so those who just want to sell that playfield can re-coup the loss in resale value.

Expecting guys to swap the playfield out isnt really acceptable.

#957 3 months ago
Quoted from libtech:

They should give guys the option A) replace with populated playfield for those who want a mint game B) send a spare playfield, so those who just want to sell that playfield can re-coup the loss in resale value.
Expecting guys to swap the playfield out isnt really acceptable.

I'll extrapolate that one step further:

Offer:

* A free un-populated playfield, shipping covered,

- OR -

* A playfield swap, owner covers shipping,

- OR -

* Extended warranty coverage for the original registered owner. Ideally, for as long as they own the game, but realistically, out to 5 years would probably be reasonable.

Any one of these options should protect the resale value of the game and provide some relief to affected owners.

-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107

#958 3 months ago
Quoted from PinballTilt:

JJP will make sure any replacement playfields moving forward don't have this soft clear issue. I don't speak for the company and have no inside information, but there is no way they'd send out playfields with issues under this program. Those that already bought and were refunded, those might have this issue still

And how exactly are they going to be able to guarantee that? It sounds like both JJP and Stern both have ongoing issues with current games. Seems to me they still dont have a handle on what or why these issues continue to occur or the problem would already have been remedied.

#959 3 months ago
Quoted from Utesichiban:

And how exactly are they going to be able to guarantee that? It sounds like both JJP and Stern both have ongoing issues with current games. Seems to me they still dont have a handle on what or why these issues continue to occur or the problem would already have been remedied.

It only took a few weeks for problems to be discovered on my pin, and most issues are revealed right out of the box. Just shooting from the hip here, but I'm guessing that the issue is a vendor concern, either with the vendor assembling the fields, or with the vendor supplying the clear coat chemicals. Not sure which. Doesn't really matter, however, as it would be simple to provide a "test piece" of wood with art and clear applied and a couple of posts screwed to it at the time of production as sort of a "litmus" test of sorts. Then wait a few weeks. If the test piece shows good, then the field is also good.

One thing is for sure - this is absolutely a "batch" issue. It's the only logical conclusion that would explain why there are some units that have issues and others that don't.

-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107

#960 3 months ago

Hopefully you don't have to sign anything for them to send the replacement playfield

#961 3 months ago

I think Jack got the playfield supplier's attention, whoever it is.

I'm guessing here, but maybe the manufacturer accepted some responsibility for the shitty clear? And now Jack can get freebies down the line, starting now?
He can debit each of the replacement playfield he sends out, because he is getting a credit on his very next one ordered?
Make a few dozen phone calls, make some unhappy people less unhappy?

And he is only out the cost of shipping a new playfield.....

#962 3 months ago
Quoted from yancy:

"No widespread issues here at Stern, can’t speak for other manufacturers though. If anyone does have any issues with their games though they should definitely be reaching out to their dealer or distributor." Source: https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/this-week-in-pinball-august-26th-2019/

Re: JJP vs Stern....sounds like if you are "waiting" to see how Stern handles it, the wait was over a couple weeks back.

#963 3 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

In a lot of ways the newer pfs can be easier. More modular, better harnesses, no need to rebuild mechs, drop targets, etc. there is more on modern games... but they are built different and if the mech holes are setup correctly it would go pretty quickly.

I agree, cleaning all the dirty parts, reflowing solder joints and soldering in new switches and coils is what takes me the longest. A new game would be a breeze by comparison.

#964 3 months ago
Quoted from Utesichiban:

And how exactly are they going to be able to guarantee that? It sounds like both JJP and Stern both have ongoing issues with current games. Seems to me they still dont have a handle on what or why these issues continue to occur or the problem would already have been remedied.

Well, I don't know for sure of course but I do work for a major company handling recall issues. I can tell you both the company I work for now and the last one value their customers very much and know the fallout from putting out a fix with the same issue would be catastrophic. Imagine if Honda had replaced airbags with more faulty airbags - they would be out of business. It's very likely jjp has tested what mirco claims is a new process or chemical and have confirmed the issue is fixed. That's essentially what my company does.

#965 3 months ago
Quoted from Jackalwere:

I agree, cleaning all the dirty parts, reflowing solder joints and soldering in new switches and coils is what takes me the longest. A new game would be a breeze by comparison.

Yeah, many assume 'more stuff == harder!' but it's more about the kind of work needed.

#966 3 months ago

While the unpopulated playfield is a nice gesture, it feels like a total half-measure. Why would the end user want 2 playfields anyway? Isn't the desired result 1 good playfield?

I feel theres only really 3 acceptable outcomes here, baring in mind that JJP is a smaller company and they can't just ship out 500+ populated playfields without going bankrupt.

#1 Unpopulated playfield, 1000$ discount on a future purchase. This solves both problems without bankrupting the company. It takes care of the people with problems, and wins back customer loyalty/confidence. Sure they're taking a major hit on a future machine, but likely still making a profit and guaranteeing future sales.

#2 Populated playfield or full machine swap. Seems like a no brainer, JJP gets the parts back and can use them on future machines, for which they have the expertise to depopulate and populate without much trouble. Buyer is 100% happy here as well.

#3 Return for a refund. Obvious, why is this not an option since the machines are defective?

I would pretty much guarantee that Mediocre-co is on the hook for most or all of this anyway. Their business is the one that will surely go under if JJP has to take the hit, no way they'll use them again (or anyone else for that matter). And surely there are insurance or contracts between JJP and chip-co that cover this sort of situation.

Now as for Stern, the only real solution for them is #2 or #3. They're a big business and they can handle it.

15
#967 3 months ago

I would be fine with the free playfield. It's not like the game is unplayable with some clear damage, which lets be honest you really have to look hard to find on most games. I would just play the heck out of it and either swap it myself some day if it got really bad or just pass along the PF when I sold it at some point.

18
#968 3 months ago

You're losing value with the blank playfield.

Would you rather buy pin A used with no damage or pin B used with bubbling/chipping + free blank playfield?

I'd take A

#969 3 months ago

Maybe Jack will do a few cartwheels along with these phone calls - people seem to go ga ga over that......

#970 3 months ago
Quoted from Raegor:

You're losing value with the blank playfield.
Would you rather buy pin A used with no damage or pin B used with bubbling/chipping + free blank playfield?
I'd take A

Honestly if the game was a year old and had some minor blemishes I wouldn't really discount it much. If the PF was a mess after a year I can see how you would take a hit on resale if you sold it that way. I'd be fine doing a PF swap though and I like projects so not a big deal for me. At 5 years I can see how the game with the replacement PF might be worth more.

#971 3 months ago
Quoted from clg:

Honestly if the game was a year old and had some minor blemishes I wouldn't really discount it much. If the PF was a mess after a year I can see how you would take a hit on resale if you sold it that way. I'd be fine doing a PF swap though and I like projects so not a big deal for me. At 5 years I can see how the game with the replacement PF might be worth more.

This is pretty much my stance as well, especially for a game that has a lot of plays. I guess it all depends on if you willing and capable of doing the swap. I think this well help hold the value. There is going to be no more good deals for routed games, a routed game with a spare playfield is going to cost you. If your just a player and not capable or willing to work on a pin you will be at a disadvantage when it comes to buying. Sellers will have no issue as there are plenty of guys in the hobby more than happy to do the swap.

11
#972 3 months ago
Quoted from Darscot:

This is pretty much my stance as well, especially for a game that has a lot of plays. I guess it all depends on if you willing and capable of doing the swap. I think this well help hold the value. There is going to be no more good deals for routed games, a routed game with a spare playfield is going to cost you. If your just a player and not capable or willing to work on a pin you will be at a disadvantage when it comes to buying. Sellers will have no issue as there are plenty of guys in the hobby more than happy to do the swap.

Most here aren’t willing or capable of doing the swap.

#973 3 months ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

Most here aren’t willing or capable of doing the swap.

AND dont forget this either, just because you dont notice a pooling and/or chipping playfield for a year doesn't mean that it wasnt defective from the factory because it in fact WAS defective on day one!

#974 3 months ago

I think 95% of pinsiders won't do a playfield swap, and 100% of non pinsiders who buy a pin for their mancave.

-5
#975 3 months ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

Most here aren’t willing or capable of doing the swap.

There are plenty of people that are and you only need one buyer. These are the very latest released pins, even in a couple years you are going to have a line up of buyers. If I'm the only guy in the line not trying to get $1000 off because it needs a swap, lucky me and lucky seller. I think people underestimate how many people in pinball spend as much time working on them as playing them.

P.S. Whats a swap going to take 20-30 hours, shit I put more than that into a video game and at the end I just feel like a slob that just spend 30 hours sitting on my ass. I would much rather work on a pin and have a dime piece at the end.

#976 3 months ago
Quoted from Darscot:

There are plenty of people that are and you only need one buyer. These are the very latest released pins, even in a couple years you are going to have a line up of buyers. If I'm the only guy in the line not trying to get $1000 off because it needs a swap, lucky me and lucky seller. I think people underestimate how many people in pinball spend as much time working on them as playing them.
P.S. Whats a swap going to take 20-30 hours, shit I put more than that into a video game and at the end I just feel like a slob that just spend 30 hours sitting on my ass. I would much rather work on a pin and have a dime piece at the end.

I wish I had that kind of time.

#977 3 months ago
Quoted from Darscot:

There are plenty of people that are and you only need one buyer. These are the very latest released pins, even in a couple years you are going to have a line up of buyers. If I'm the only guy in the line not trying to get $1000 off because it needs a swap, lucky me and lucky seller. I think people underestimate how many people in pinball spend as much time working on them as playing them.
P.S. Whats a swap going to take 20-30 hours, shit I put more than that into a video game and at the end I just feel like a slob that just spend 30 hours sitting on my ass. I would much rather work on a pin and have a dime piece at the end.

20 or 30 hours for a playfield swap? Ha.....good luck with that!

#978 3 months ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

I wish I had that kind of time.

Ha ha, I'm a software engineer in video games. I have a wife and kids that where in sports that required a lot of travel. I didn't say I did 20-30 hours in like a week. Everybody has crazy time demands, that is just the way life is. All I'm saying is there are lots of people out there that will be willing to pay for these pins and I don't think anyone is going to take a financial loss. You have a massive pin collection I suspect you can find a few hours for pinball.

#979 3 months ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

Most here aren’t willing or capable of doing the swap.

I understand that this can be daunting for some and it can (I think) lead to expectations that pins should be treated like other consumer products. The downside to this is that this costs the manufacturers more and that gets built into pin prices.

In my local area I know of about 8 people that have bought NIB. 6 of us would be comfortable doing PF swaps, one would not be comfortable and one I'm not sure about.

-3
#980 3 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

20 or 30 hours for a playfield swap? Ha.....good luck with that!

Easily done I think.

#981 3 months ago
Quoted from clg:

Easily done I think.

No way. Lets just assume you’re right though. If it takes 20 hours to do a playfield swap then Stern and JJP can probably do it in half of that time easily so why dont they do it for the customers that are affected if its such an easy task?

#982 3 months ago
Quoted from Raegor:

You're losing value with the blank playfield.
Would you rather buy pin A used with no damage or pin B used with bubbling/chipping + free blank playfield?
I'd take A

If A showed wear and b looked even worse, still playable, but worse, but had a brand new playfield included.
I would take b.

#983 3 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

No way. Lets just assume you’re right though. If it takes 20 hours to do a playfield swap then Stern and JJP can probably do it in half of that time easily so why dont they do it for the customers that are affected if its such an easy task?

This is very simple mathematics, labour is a major expense especially in America. It would double the cost.

#984 3 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

AND dont forget this either, just because you dont notice a pooling and/or chipping playfield for a year doesn't mean that it wasnt defective from the factory because it in fact WAS defective on day one!

All playfields are not affected by this issue. There's multiple reports of JJP Pirates and Wonka playfields that don't have the pooling or chipping issue.

#985 3 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

All playfields are not affected by this issue. There's multiple reports of JJP Pirates and Wonka playfields that don't have the pooling or chipping issue.

Most are though. If you don’t believe me get out of the house and go visit your local barcades. This IS a widespread issue Panzer believe me.

#986 3 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Most are though. If you don’t believe me get out of the house and go visit your local barcades. This IS a widespread issue Panzer believe me.

Yeah I know a lot of games are affected but thankfully it's not all. I have a Pirates LE, built early Feb, with no pooling or chipping. Some playfield batches were affected, others were not. Have heard similar from other owners. My game had plastic washers installed from the factory under the sling posts. Seems like most Pirates sling posts are not smooth on the bottom and have a protruding edge, see pic below. I put some mylar squares down over the post holes just incase. Game is my basement where a dehumidifier runs 24/7, not sure if that helped or not.

eb5099726fbb016b5bee6d1ae3b4df72135723db (1) (resized).jpg

Example of sling posts installed on Pirates, poor QC. Without washers underneath these things would dig right into any playfield if tightened down enough.

fdc449ac4c21c4993936e84afb02a9070dc67a06 (resized).jpg

Example of sling post digging into plastic factory washer

8a08956226ce33ab4cbce84ac85256fac4d2c495 (resized).jpg

#987 3 months ago

I've completed several swaps of Eight Ball Deluxe and Centaur playfields. 20-22 hours each including troubleshooting and adjustments for me.

#988 3 months ago
Quoted from MrBally:

I've completed several swaps of Eight Ball Deluxe and Centaur playfields. 20-22 hours each including troubleshooting and adjustments for me.

That's really good. Think maybe 50 hours then for a Pirates due to the amount of parts on the game?

#989 3 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

That's really good. Think maybe 50 hours then for a Pirates due to the amount of parts on the game?

Its not a restore, 50 hours seems very excessive to me, its still just a pinball machine and its not like there should be a lot of problems or adjustments required. I wonder how many hours it takes a company to assemble a machine.

23
#990 3 months ago

Heck...if it takes MrBally 20 hours and Panzer 50 I am looking at 100!

And what would I do with all of the extra parts when I am done?

#991 3 months ago
Quoted from Darscot:

Its not a restore, 50 hours seems very excessive to me, its still just a pinball machine and its not like there should be a lot of problems or adjustments required. I wonder how many hours it takes a company to assemble a machine.

Yeah, it's going to vary person to person. People doing the WOZ 2.0 board swaps said the entire process took 12 hours, and that's just light boards.

Quoted from LukyDuck:

Heck...if it takes MrBally 20 hours and Panzer 50 I am looking at 100!
And what would I do with all of the extra parts when I am done?

Lol, probably 100 hours for me since I've been a STTNG playfield swap for what seems like forever.

#992 3 months ago
Quoted from Darscot:

Its not a restore, 50 hours seems very excessive to me, its still just a pinball machine and its not like there should be a lot of problems or adjustments required. I wonder how many hours it takes a company to assemble a machine.

Well, if you had ten people doing the complete assembly and it took each one 15 mins for their steps, that’s around 2.5 hours. But everything is being installed in the most efficient manner based on their procedures.

#993 3 months ago
Quoted from MrBally:

I've completed several swaps of Eight Ball Deluxe and Centaur playfields. 20-22 hours each including troubleshooting and adjustments for me.

If you say that you can I believe you because i know that you are a straight up guy, BUT you obviously work on pins a lot right? How long did it take you the very first time that you did a playfield swap and what about those people that are just not capable of doing one?

I just don’t understand why its ok and even considered acceptable by some for a pinball company to sell someone a defective product that cost ten thousand dollars and then tell them to get screwed. If the consumer has no protection against things like this then why aren't car companies telling their customers to get f***** when they buy a new car and the motor or transmission goes out?

#994 3 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

If you say that you can I believe you because i know that you are a straight up guy, BUT you obviously work on pins a lot right? How long did it take you the very first time that you did a playfield swap and what about those people that are just not capable of doing one?
I just don’t understand why its ok and even considered acceptable by some for a pinball company to sell someone a defective product that cost ten thousand dollars and then tell them to get screwed. If the consumer has no protection against things like this then why aren't car companies telling their customers to get f***** when they buy a new car and the motor or transmission goes out?

Because the vehicle issue would end up on TV. Pinball issues would not. The internet is your only recourse. That’s my take.

Let’s hope the PF issue goes away for a long time.

#995 3 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

If you say that you can I believe you because i know that you are a straight up guy, BUT you obviously work on pins a lot right? How long did it take you the very first time that you did a playfield swap and what about those people that are just not capable of doing one?
I just don’t understand why its ok and even considered acceptable by some for a pinball company to sell someone a defective product that cost ten thousand dollars and then tell them to get screwed. If the consumer has no protection against things like this then why aren't car companies telling their customers to get f***** when they buy a new car and the motor or transmission goes out?

Had to take the bait on this one. It's because this issue as of now is a minor cosmetic issue that you can barely see when playing. A motor in a car is a major component that stops the car from functioning. If you can't complete the swap or don't want to, well you have some artwork and still have a perfectly functioning game. Just my $0.02, I'm happy with this resolution

#996 3 months ago
Quoted from PinballTilt:

Had to take the bait on this one. It's because this issue as of now is a minor cosmetic issue that you can barely see when playing. A motor in a car is a major component that stops the car from functioning. If you can't complete the swap or don't want to, well you have some artwork and still have a perfectly functioning game. Just my $0.02, I'm happy with this resolution

A defect is a defect no matter how large or how small and new products are supposed to be free from defects. Chipping and pooling is also not normal or acceptable on a new pinball playfield.

#997 3 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

A defect is a defect no matter how large or how small and new products are supposed to be free from defects. Chipping and pooling is also not normal or acceptable on a new pinball playfield.

A new product should not have defects, but I don't agree that the size or type of defect doesn't matter.

I don't remember Stern giving people new playfields for the LOTRs that had slight registration issues, nor should they have IMO.

I reported two issues on my WOZ, back in 2013. It had a scratch on the backglass and the back upper edge of the lower cabinet was shredded, like it had been cut by a dull saw. JJP sent me a replacement backglass. The cabinet I felt was minor since it couldn't be seen from the front, so I didn't ask for anything.

I've also seen varying degrees of graining on the playfields from multiple manufacturers. Doesn't look great but doesn't make the playfield wear any faster. Again, manufacturers will not send you a new playfield, nor should they IMO.

I think things like pooling and ghosting that can lead to more extensive damage do warrant a new playfield.

#998 3 months ago

From the Cleveland show today. Both wonkas had chipping on slings. Both JP had big metal washers on star posts but the upper post was unprotected and showed pool / starting of chipping

11938BFB-C5B5-4D57-B562-42FA1D06BE9F (resized).jpeg35B4137F-9CD7-4640-B176-E833B70502F4 (resized).jpegAF8B6CFA-4B47-4027-9CA0-2EDA42779AC6 (resized).jpeg
#999 3 months ago

Car companies can absorb hundreds of millions in losses....and they have. Pinball companies can not absorb a half a million to a million and continue to be viable.

#1000 3 months ago
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