The aftermarket value has already been established. Whether its $1000 more or else than what you paid, at the end does that matter if you got enjoyment out of the game? If you can't afford a 15% loss on your purchase you shouldn't be in this hobby. Multiple GNRs with playfield issues have sold to non hysterical buyers.

JJP needs to send, at the very minimum, a perfect replacement playfield to all of those affected (including myself). Of those that receive one, I imagine less than 10% would do an immediate playfield swap. The rest would simply keep it as insurance until the issues develop to the point of requiring the swap (spoiler alert likely never).

I disagree.

My game came with a defective play field. I asked to have my defective play field replaced. JJP refused. End of story.

disagree with what part. I said JJP should replace the playfield. It would be nice if you posted in complete thoughts.

No, you said that JJP should "send, at the very minimum, a perfect replacement playfield to all of those affected."

That is NOT replacing the field. Sending a part is not the same thing as replacing a part.

Ok so you want a replacement populated playfield. Agreed that would be the optimal solution. Sell your game if you're unhappy. I'm sure you can get 6500+ for your wonka, which is exactly what wonkas with perfect playfields were going for 6 months ago.

I used to believe I could put enough plays on a machine to require a pf swap, so I always bought a NOS playfield and kept it as an insurance policy on wear. Fast forward 25 years and that thinking has done nothing but leave me with a stack of NOS playfields and wear on my machines that has been almost undetectable, except for my NIB MBrLE, which has dimpled worse than any other machine in my collection. Will I ever swap out my old pf's? Maybe, maybe not, but one thing is certain- newer playfields are softer and not as durable, so a Kruzman MBrLE playfield is in the works and will be swapped out when finished. I would not want to own a Mirco pf in any machine right now going forward. Not without it being HEP'd or Kruzmaned into a more stable state.

I would like to keep my game. I would also like it to be defect free. Those are not mutually exclusive.

Sounds like Micro is irrelevant to your issues. Per your own experience CGC (and stern) playfields dimple.

In all fairness, Alien almost killed Oneangrymo here on Pinside, so it is not completely out of the question.

Here is a cloud for you to get angry at:

file-20181102-83644-b06itk (resized).jpg

Actually in your case they are mutually exclusive.

Ever own any modern Taurus firearms?

And that is 100% JJP's fault. There are other Wonka SE owners who have defect free games.

Who the hell said anything about a broken monitor? Read my post again.

... I see later on that you dont see the chipping while playing. True. But you said a "heavily worn" playfield. I could argue that after a while you ignore the burn in. Still makes it no less shitty.

And, as you said, it is "just a cosmetic issue." Me? I like nice playfields and nice monitors. You obviously don't care about looks as much as I do.

Hey!!! Their revolvers are pretty solid!

Oh, ok. Paint pooling and chipping can kill you. Makes complete sense. Carry on!

No my issue is not wanting to buy a lottery ticket for $10000 bucks... one which has a known built in failure mode and random payouts... not buying any Mirco playfield right now assures that I don't win the JJP/Stern chip and bail lottery. I've been shopping for wedgeheads, because I at least know what I am getting.

That guy doesn't care about the playfields, he just wants to play devil's advocate and troll you. But feel free to try to convince him of something.

He is trying to protect his resale value if he sells his defective games. A lot of people are doing this. They know the problem is quite real and severe but just don’t want to admit such.

Actually ... If the grocery store sells known tainted products to the public they are in fact 100% libel for their actions and will have to pay restitution.

In all fairness, I don't think Oneangrymo's near death experience was a result of cosmetic issues with his Alien pinball machine's playfield...

Now that you mention it, you make a good point.

If I'm playing someone elses game, pooling, chipping, planking, dimples, etc.. don't bother me at all. I only care about how well it plays.

In the past I provided some advice to Andrew Heighway about uv inkjet printing towards pinball production. I tried to get a job working remotely for Deep Root pinball in the early days but they wanted you in Texas fulltime. I have my brother in Austin, but I was finishing up my almost 25 years with my City to get a pension. So now retired & working daily on pinball playfields & glass production. I did warn Jack years ago to be cautious towards Mirco when he came after my small business. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/mirco-exclusive-classic-stern-parts-manufacturer

So being a early pioneer of uv inkjet printing about 13 years ago which I called direct ink & others would call next generation. From the traditional screen printing of individual colors. I have had numerous failures from finish clear coat contractors over the years, & never from the printing (ink!). Still see stuff I know, from previous failures.

I get trashed here about my process over the last 13. I freely explain my process, & have never had pooling or ink delaminating from the playfields!

Here is the important info I freely give. Clean your playfields with Naphtha, & 2 coats to seal the wood. I use 2 coats of waterborne interior gloss Varethane. Contrary to the experts here you do not have to sand between coats. You can apply the second coat in hours, days, or weeks (likely months but I have not gone that long). After printing NEVER! do finish clear coats if you SMELL THE INK! I always tell my finish clear coat contractors to NEVER RUSH production! Guess what they do it at times & screw up the finished playfields. The weakest link is BLACK INK! If they rush the process the black ink will curdle, bubble up, or do other weird stuff. Still see this shit going on.

My finish clear coat contractor uses the old version Omni, & leaves the white insert stars for rollovers installed when he does my small batches of playfields. His process again is a quick hardner spray, & then 2 coats of Omni.

Mirco is heavy into his automation of playfields with Robots. Very impressive & a lot of capital investment. The problem with this is maybe shit happens that you are not aware of with (Human) hands on in production. Same with people thinking that way back in the day each color was mixed perfectly, & every playfield was the same (NOT!). even the cnc or cut playfields were all over the place back in the day.

My final thought is it is not the uv ink, unless the new printers Mirco & others are using have some weird stuff going on. Maybe, I know my playfields are printed on a 10+ year old Canon OCE Arizona uv inkjet flatbed printer, & my initial ones were on a Colorspan 9840 roll in printer that you had to mask with paper to fake it out to print back in the day. My best guess is that failures in the industry is trying to fast track production, by cutting corners, or clearing over ink that is not fully cured. People & myself keep mentioning off gasing for ink or finish clear if it is applied too heavy, too quick between coats, or HOT (like the clear is past its life!).

What grocery store would be dumb enough to do that and how could it be proven the grocery store did sell it knowlingly? Again, no basis...

lol

oldman_cloud.jpg

I think you probably nailed it - Mirco has too much invested in current process to make changes
In reality - past money spent doesn't matter if something is not working, it's a trap a lot of people fall into

I’m a stats guy and we do something called experimental probability, where we take actual real life numbers and attach a probability to that collected data. Some might say this is blown out of proportion because pinside is a small sliver or small sample of the total pinball community. True. Pinside is a small sliver. However, with that sample size we can still paint a big picture and calculate the probability of these machines having these playfield defects. I don’t take polls seriously because those can be manipulated one way or another. So what I did was visit the GnR CE owners thread and everytime a user posted a picture of their machine “evidence”, I knew they owned a CE. So then I would click on said users name and more often then not, they would be posting on threads like this complaining about chipping and pooling. The probability of your machine having a defective playfield is Very Likely. Some don’t even know it. I just saw two different people posting innocent pictures of their machine in GnR thread and both people had pooling that other users pointed out. I also factor in a streamer who doesn’t post on here but just received his GnR a few weeks ago and already chipping. You are looking at over 60% chance of your playfield being defective. Number might even be higher, I haven’t spent as much time on it. Just shocked. JJP seems to be ignoring that fact through their communication and saying everything is fine. When they should be fixing the root cause. Instead they are banking on people bending over. Other apologists will say the game can still be played even if it’s down to the bare wood. To which I argue, you can purchase a new car and all that rust that appears in the first month it a okay because you can still drive, even if the truck rusts completely out in a year it’s still drivable. Overall, we continue to collect data, quantitive and qualitative as we move forward. JJP still has time to make things right. But clock is ticking.

Not the best of news, but interesting. What's the confidence interval on that estimate?

Something doesn’t really add up with you. 3 months ago you are on a forum saying your are a total newbie when it comes to owning a pinball machine and don’t know how to take the backglass off to change batteries.

It doesn’t seem like you even own GNR as you have not complained about your game or posted any pics.

You mentioned that you would get a referral fee for starting a class action lawsuit. So what’s your deal? Are you just trying to make a buck and start trouble with JJP or do you actually have the game with playfield damage. Based on when you said you put a deposit down, my stats say you have no game

Let me repeat this again. For those who bought the last 3 JJP games. Most if not all of you will have lifting artwork at some point in the near future. The process is heavily flawed and it is just a scientific fact in the end. Sad but true.

Glad I just sold my DI CE then or were these ok?

Yes this has been a 3 month long ploy to take down JJP and collect $500 finders fee. You figured me out! Nothing gets past you.

My DI Le is near perfect just a small amount of dimpling

I figured as much. You’re just in it for the money. You have no game

Stay on topic my friend. Attempting to make a conspiracy theory of everything seems to be common now a days and I don’t really get it. Snap out of that logic. You have a defective playfield, as do many in this thread including myself. Let’s stay focused on that. Seems like you spent a lot of time reading my history (for some reason) and yet you can’t see I was a day one order of a GnR machine? I believe I posted that 4 months ago when they raised the price an extra $1000. You support your logic with a “newbie” can’t possibly purchase a NIB pinball. Somehow you think this was a 7 month long ploy to make $500, all the while I’m taking my sweet sweet time and allowing JJP to make their customers whole again. Your conspiracy theory is not adding up....like at all.

Now back to the topic at hand. I took a peak at the CE owners thread and only stopped at pictures of people that received their machine and then clicked on their profile to see if they posted on playfield threads. From my information 14 users reported playfield damage and 9 did not. The 9 people didn’t post much after that in any other forum.

That’s a 60% probability of your CE having a defective playfield. Sample size 23 CEs. The 9 CEs that never reported playfield damage were also not asked about it, so some of those could also have unreported damage.

Once again, these were just Collectors Editions.

I don’t believe you. Let someone that actually owns the game decide if they want to bring a lawsuit. You’re just a vulture

Posted this in the other thread...

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/why-is-jjp-still-making-games-with-faulty-playfields/page/16#post-6318098

There is a legal angle that JJP is pursuing, a very well known and tried and true one to companies in the same situation.

You are one of the lucky few that won the JJP PF lotto. Reported by many of us DI owners (and owners of POTC, WW, and now GNR): they are loaded with pooling, cracking, chipping and not just dimpling, but some cratering too. Tragic on such expensive toys and once thought to be collectibles.

That small sample gives a pretty large confidence interval (38 to 80%). But I agree the 60% is probably on the low side. Based on the poll in this thread https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gnrce-playfield-issues it's about 69%.

It’s not a legal angle it’s what any business is expected to do. If the customer doesn’t like the product offer a refund.

The Resolution/ sharpness thing is incorrect since you have to dither everything you make, while a solid color allways has a sharpe edge.
That's also why the dots in Screen print are more obvious, because they're sharp and not bleeding out.

I at he Moment only have a BKSoR and a Police Force. The BKSoR looks obviously nicer (if you don't look too close), but the Police force is clearly sharper.

Yah I definitely think it is worse than 60%. This was just CEs. I just went over to the GnR owners thread and the last three people to post picture of their machine had pooling and chipping. They didn’t even know it when they posted it, people had to point it out for them. 3 people that thought they had good machines became victims of faulty playfields. At this rate we can just assume it’s going to happen to all machines and JJP is doing nothing to fix it. They say the playfields do not have a problem. Interesting.

I'll believe the legitimacy of this "buyback offer" when I see offers to buy back other models.

What I DO believe is that the only reason this woks is because the CE is currently trending above MSRP in value. Had this game been a dud there's no way the manufacturer offers a buyback. Just my opinion.

I couldn't agree more....my guess is JJP won't buy back LE's or SE's, and at some point will offer a replacement play field at retail, cost, or for free....unfortunately its the only realistic solution

I agree, and its an easy offer for CE owners that are affected. The reality nobody in their right mind will take that offer (they know this) since the game is clearly worth far more than the retail price (even with a bad play field). The real question is are they offering this solution to the LE and SE owners.....hmmmm....my guess is they will not

Unless this is more wide spread, then maybe they might. I am just wondering what we do with all this cattle once everyone is finished having a cow.

If its wide spread I don't see how they can possibly buy back all the LE's affected....makes no sense.

Does he have to own a GNR to come up with some statistics of bad playfields?

I think there are some SE folks who have been offered buybacks