(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern

By f3honda4me

4 years ago


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17
#8501 2 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Yes, but they supposedly fixed the problem.

I disagree. Mirco is the supplier and should be the expert in what they do, making quality playfields. Is it the supermarket's responsibility to tell Nabisco how to adjust their ovens because the Chips Ahoy cookies aren't getting baked enough? (Yes, this has been a problem with some batches)
JJP could remove artwork if so directed by Mirco or just to see if it helps. JJP could refuse to pay for playfields that don't meet the standards agreed upon. JJP can try to find another supplier.
I don't think it's JJP's responsibility to fix Mirco's problems, but JJP is responsible for the quality, including the playfield, of the games they ship to customers.

Is it the home builders responsibility to make sure the house is built properly or all the subcontractors? Every time it is the home builders responsibility job #1. He is held accountable period. The subcontractor, Mirco in this case is held accountable to the builder, JJP. JJP is accountable to their customers, as the ultimate manufacturer, not Mirco. The buck stops with JJP. They are the designers, builders, programmers, electrical engineers, etc. and fully responsible for every component in the machine. So many law cases to point to, its not even a discussion. The buck stops with JJP period. All the JJP apologists that wish to abdicate JJP from their responsibilities and pass the buck are dreaming.

(Your grocery store analogy doesn’t work, because JJP is not like a grocery store in anyway. The grocery store does not have a hand in anything produced, which is sold in the store, as they are not a maker, producer, builder, supervisor, nor contractor for anything offered in the store. But unlike a grocery store, JJP can tell nabisco, ie., Mirco what they want and mandate that with Mirco (a subcontractor of JJP), because JJP is the ultimate manufacturer of the machine. Is the grocery store held liable for a tainted product offered by a manufacturer? Absolutely not. Is the distributor held liable for JJP manufacturing? Again no, they only distribute like the grocery store.)

Since JJP is the manufacturer, they are held liable for all subcontractor work. Mirco’s name is not stamped on any JJP game, only JJP’s name appears.

#8502 2 years ago

^^^^ This every time , why are people having a difficult time understanding this.

#8503 2 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Seems like their non JJP playfields should have similar problems.

They do.

14
#8504 2 years ago

My John Deere lawn tractor blew some smoke after mowing yard last night. It’s brand new with 5 hrs on it.
I paid 2600 bucks for it. The dealer is coming to look at it at my house and fix/diagnose the issue. If the have to take it then it’ll be a few days before returning. Now that’s a warranty. My wife was laughing because it’s taken Stern 8 months now to get my replacement playfield for Jurassic and that cost 7500. What a joke these pinball manufacturers are. They have the best customers though. Pay through the roof for a non existing warranty and sub par service. Distributors just lay back and take the cash and say sorry. I am glad I finally learned to just buy second hand and only rotate a game in my four game collection every other year.

#8505 2 years ago

JJP aren't even letting people BUY replacement playfields right now.

Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

My John Deere lawn tractor blew some smoke after mowing yard last night. It’s brand new with 5 hrs on it.
I paid 2600 bucks for it. The dealer is coming to look at it at my house and fix/diagnose the issue. If the have to take it then it’ll be a few days before returning. Now that’s a warranty. My wife was laughing because it’s taken Stern 8 months now to get my replacement playfield for Jurassic and that cost 7500. What a joke these pinball manufacturers are. They have the best customers though. Pay through the roof for a non existing warranty and sub par service. Distributors just lay back and take the cash and say sorry. I am glad I finally learned to just buy second hand and only rotate a game in my four game collection every other year.

thats what happens in a market with zero competition

#8506 2 years ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

My John Deere lawn tractor blew some smoke after mowing yard last night. It’s brand new with 5 hrs on it.
I paid 2600 bucks for it. The dealer is coming to look at it at my house and fix/diagnose the issue. If the have to take it then it’ll be a few days before returning. Now that’s a warranty. My wife was laughing because it’s taken Stern 8 months now to get my replacement playfield for Jurassic and that cost 7500. What a joke these pinball manufacturers are. They have the best customers though. Pay through the roof for a non existing warranty and sub par service. Distributors just lay back and take the cash and say sorry. I am glad I finally learned to just buy second hand and only rotate a game in my four game collection every other year.

Hmm, John Deere a 3 Billion dollar global company with support. Yeah pretty close example...

#8507 2 years ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Hmm, John Deere a 3 Billion dollar global company with support. Yeah pretty close example...

Whats your point? That JJP/Stern should get a hall pass because their smaller companies? The reality is these manufacturers have it made in that they charge a premium for their product yet provide terrible customer support. Just getting them to replace parts can be a challenge when we all know its the labor that costs most of the money to rectify the problem.

#8508 2 years ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

When I first heard they were Doing DTS printing for Playfields, I though, Hmm... what a novel idea. If it works, it could revolutionize playfield production by:
-allowing for remakes easily,
-would really speed up the playfield pipeline,
-eliminate the drawbacks of screen printing,
-remove the whole process of developing and using all the different inks and paints and dyes,
-the necessity of determining optimum color trapping, layer order, cure times, etc...
-reduction of registration to a single, one shot mechanical centering on the printer...
All kinds of benefits. Then the ugly truth raised its head and we find the artwork is actually a thin film web itself, and when it receives MASSIVE side loaded forces, tears away from the substrate and surrounding artwork, and forms a sub clear void or bubble.
Then the CC hardens at the edges of the bubble, there is nothing keeping it from receiving additional MASSIVE side forces which causes buckling and the brittle CC starts to crack and break free... and a Chip is born.
The reason removing the artwork has worked for Stern is the bare wood below the posts gets the initial clear prep layer, but no thin film color layer is there to detach and start a chip.
So the problem is the DTS thin film color layer and its ability to maintain adhesion even though the post is imparting massive side loads to a major area of the thin film color web.
HEP's solution to use smaller washers means there is less color film layer exposed to the side forces, so even if the artwork lets go, the small footprint is still hidden by the larger post or washer above it.
It all comes back to the de-lamination of the thin film color layer from the substrate due to huge side forces. So like vid1900 said, this ain't changing until they change the DTS printing process which means dumping Mirco.
The problem is, the solution is not economical if they are to maintain the production rates that Miro's process has got them addicted to... CGC learned that lesson on MB with the delays their screen printing process added to its delivery schedule.

So remove the art around the post, a 2 hour photoshop job by JJP and we are done with this issue. What’s the problem here? Stern did it, why can’t JJP? I’m shocked that the GNR play field wasn’t designed this way to begin with, this has been common knowledge for years.

Are you a fan of the hep smaller washer prevention method? I’m debating using it but I’m worried that using smaller washers puts even more force on the paint thus encouraging damage, you’re then just hoping the damage doesn’t peak past the post above it which seems like a 50-50 proposition based on photos of damage that are pretty bad. Right now this seems purely theoretical as I’ve never seen anyone try it.

I’m current using Mylar rings and 3/4 petg washers. I believe that combo removes enough force from the play field to make the formation of new pooling highly unlikely. The petg washers also have just enough flex to put more pressure on the center or the washer while keeping minimal to no pressure on the edges which should also help prevent pooling.

Interested in your thoughts, thanks

#8509 2 years ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Whats your point? That JJP/Stern should get a hall pass because their smaller companies? The reality is these manufacturers have it made in that they charge a premium for their product yet provide terrible customer support. Just getting them to replace parts can be a challenge when we all know its the labor that costs most of the money to rectify the problem.

My point was the comparison of happy home service between John Deere Corp and a mini pinball company. Yes they should have better support but that company comparison is not the same. Tesla comes to my house to perform service, do I expect that level from a pinball company, no.

#8510 2 years ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Whats your point? That JJP/Stern should get a hall pass because their smaller companies?

Nobody is saying that. But people keep making these apples and oranges comparisons of JJP - a small, young, struggling boutique manufacturer of niche products - to corporate behemoths that have been around for a century like VW and John Deere, and wondering why the level of support isn't the same. It seems pretty clear that these relatively tiny pinball companies don't have the same resources.

#8511 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Nobody is saying that. But people keep making these apples and oranges comparisons of JJP - a small, young, struggling boutique manufacturer of niche products - to corporate behemoths that have been around for a century like VW and John Deere, and wondering why the level of support isn't the same. It seems pretty clear that these relatively tiny pinball companies don't have the same resources.

Clearly, but its all relative...I think most of us know that none of these "boutique" pinball manufacturers provide that level of support, but we do expect them to replace parts (i.e play fields) that fail (and then rely on owners to provide the labor). I don't think thats too much to ask for

#8512 2 years ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

most of us know that none of these "boutique" pinball manufacturers provide that level of support, but we do expect them to replace parts (i.e play fields) that fail (and then rely on owners to provide the labor). I don't think thats too much to ask for

It's not. But stop wondering why they aren't eating billions of dollars to fix bad PR and why they aren't sending techs over to everybody's homes to fix issues. It's pretty obvious why they can't do the same things that VW and John Deere do.

#8513 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

It's not. But stop wondering why they aren't eating billions of dollars to fix bad PR and why they aren't sending techs over to everybody's homes to fix issues. It's pretty obvious why they can't do the same things that VW and John Deere do.

I haven't wondered that for a second.....I have however wondered how they could ignore customers that have other issues

#8514 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

It's not. But stop wondering why they aren't eating billions of dollars to fix bad PR and why they aren't sending techs over to everybody's homes to fix issues. It's pretty obvious why they can't do the same things that VW and John Deere do.

I think most people are looking for some acknowledgement of the problem, that they are addressing it and that they will stand behind the product. Now, that's not as easily done as it is typed because acknowledgement sends them down a slippery and potentially very expensive slope. The main thing is to get the issue corrected, stand behind that with a strong warranty and find a solution for the most egregious playfields, such as chipping washers won't cover. First and foremost, they have to restore confidence. If my game had pooling, I wouldn't be happy about it, but I could live with it and probably fix it myself (I did on wonka). Even if I had small chips, if I knew I could control them from getting worse and could cover them, I'd generally be ok with it, not happy, but not mad enough to demand a new playfield.

#8515 2 years ago
Quoted from Lermods:

I think most people are looking for some acknowledgement of the problem, that they are addressing it and that they will stand behind the product. Now, that's not as easily done as it is typed because acknowledgement sends them down a slippery and potentially very expensive slope. The main thing is to get the issue corrected, stand behind that with a strong warranty and find a solution for the most egregious playfields, such as chipping washers won't cover. First and foremost, they have to restore confidence. If my game had pooling, I wouldn't be happy about it, but I could live with it and probably fix it myself (I did on wonka). Even if I had small chips, if I knew I could control them from getting worse and could cover them, I'd generally be ok with, not happy, but not mad enough to demand a new playfield.

I believe JJP will fix this issue. There will be no fanfare or announcement, but like Stern, they will fix it with trial and error. Admission of an issue won't happen.

#8516 2 years ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

My point was the comparison of happy home service between John Deere Corp and a mini pinball company. Yes they should have better support but that company comparison is not the same. Tesla comes to my house to perform service, do I expect that level from a pinball company, no.

Agreed.
However, when these companies began charging 10K+ for pinball machines, they brought in a different consumer with different expectations. Only the lawyers win in a class action, but we are inching closer to one. These “warranties” aren’t going to protect JJP or Stern.

#8517 2 years ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

...but we do expect them to replace parts (i.e play fields) that fail (and then rely on owners to provide the labor). I don't think thats too much to ask for

My gut feel is JJP is pointing their finger at Mirco, and Mirco is pointing their finger at JJP. Meaning Mirco doesn't want to send out replacement PF's anymore (i.e. under warranty) since they blame JJP, hence the reason JJP stopped sending out PF's since they'd likely have to pay for them now.

And the owners are stuck in the middle.

#8518 2 years ago
Quoted from nicoy3k:

Interested in your thoughts, thanks

My thoughts are the DTS inks are not good at maintaining bond under lateral forces. This may be a process limitation and unsolvable for use in pinball unless you use the HEP approach of less in better, which means the less area of artwork trapped between the post and the wood, the better for NOT ripping the surrounding artwork loose. Same reason to remove artwork under posts, no inks to "let go" and start the formation of a chip. Ultimately you have to solve the bond strength problem with the wood. I worked in an R&D department of a larger aerospace manufacturer/supplier and we solved issues like this, but it was not cheap and not quick, both being major hurdles for a pinball company operating at a fraction of aerospace price margins.

#8519 2 years ago

lol Trial & Error being the customers hahahaha

#8520 2 years ago
Quoted from RC_like_the_cola:

I believe JJP will fix this issue. There will be no fanfare or announcement, but like Stern, they will fix it with trial and error. Admission of an issue won't happen.

yeah, I do agree with that, but trial and error won't get people to buy the next game. I believe that Stern knew they had a solution and didn't have to trial and error. Elvira was when the issues were solved with noticeably thinner clear and no artwork around posts. games since then have been fine.

I suppose one way to restore confidence is when they do release the next game, institute an enhanced playfield warranty and make a feature statement noting playfield finish quality. That might give some confidence to buy the next game. Won't make previous owners happy, of course, but could give new confidence moving forward. just a thought, tough situation all around.

#8521 2 years ago
Quoted from Lermods:

I believe that Stern knew they had a solution and didn't have to trial and error.

I think it's always trial and error until you confirm over many runs that your "solution" is going to work. For pinball machines, that may mean being in customers hands for a while to verify temperature changes and extended play don't reveal any issues.

#8522 2 years ago
Quoted from RC_like_the_cola:

I believe JJP will fix this issue. There will be no fanfare or announcement, but like Stern, they will fix it with trial and error. Admission of an issue won't happen.

I thought the same thing after Pirates
and then I thought the same thing after Wonka
I no long think the same thing

#8523 2 years ago
Quoted from mbwalker:

My gut feel is JJP is pointing their finger at Mirco, and Mirco is pointing their finger at JJP. Meaning Mirco doesn't want to send out replacement PF's anymore (i.e. under warranty) since they blame JJP, hence the reason JJP stopped sending out PF's since they'd likely have to pay for them now.

Does it make sense to send out or sell replacement playfields that have the same problems?

I don't think there is a way to make customers happy until they solve the problem. Or at least lessen it to a point where there are enough buyers at the new 'normal' to stay in business.

And...back to square one.

#8524 2 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

I agree that JJP has to back every component they ship to a customer, according to their warranty

Quoted from jimwe5t:

Since JJP is the manufacturer, they are held liable for all subcontractor work. Mirco’s name is not stamped on any JJP game, only JJP’s name appears.

Yeah, I'm glad you agree with me.

#8525 2 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Does it make sense to send out or sell replacement playfields that have the same problems?...

No, it definitely doesn't. Was just commenting on one possible reason why it stopped. I don't think JJP stopped sending out because they still have an issue (i.e. so why bother sending a new PF?), since apparently they are still shipping pins w/potentially subpar PF's.

15
#8526 2 years ago

At this point, based on the available evidence and communication from JJP, everyone should realize that when you buy a JJP machine NIB, you are buying one with a strong likelihood of having the PF bubble, chip, and fall off, at least around the posts. There will be no redress for this from JJP, it will simply be the way your game is from now on.

If you are still okay with that, then happily pay the man and complete your game purchase.

If you are NOT okay with that, cancel your purchase immediately, and explain why for their future consideration.

That is it. That is all.

#8527 2 years ago
Quoted from Fytr:

At this point, based on the available evidence and communication from JJP, everyone should realize that when you buy a JJP machine NIB, you are buying one with a strong likelihood of having the PF bubble, chip, and fall off, at least around the posts. There will be no redress for this from JJP, it will simply be the way your game is from now on.
If you are still okay with that, then happily pay the man and complete your game purchase.
If you are NOT okay with that, cancel your purchase immediately, and explain why for their future consideration.
That is it. That is all.

Only change I would make to your post is the NIB. In my opinion it doesn't matter if its NIB or second hand its all about Time! When not if.

#8528 2 years ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

I worked in an R&D department of a larger aerospace manufacturer/supplier and we solved issues like this, but it was not cheap and not quick, both being major hurdles for a pinball company operating at a fraction of aerospace price margins.

I worked in the R&D department of a company that makes integrated circuits so perhaps that gives us a little different perspective.

A part can be sold to thousands of manufacturers who may install them into thousands of their systems. If one of our parts does not meet it's specifications or fails in a way not caused by the manufactuer or end user, it can be sent back for a replacement or a refund. So, we replace the $5 part but the manufacturer, like JJP, incurrs all the cost to take the part from the system and deal with the unhappy end user.

Bottom line, it sucks to be a manufacturer when an up line supplier delivers a faulty product. The suckage only gets worse if it gets to the end user.

Flipside, we don't stay in business very long if we get a reputation for delivering poor quality integrated circuits.

#8529 2 years ago
Quoted from mbwalker:

I don't think JJP stopped sending out because they still have an issue (i.e. so why bother sending a new PF?), since apparently they are still shipping pins w/potentially subpar PF's.

I'm not so sure. They have to ship pins to keep their employees working, stay in business, etc...
Sending out playfields that have the same problem costs them money and still doesn't satisfy the customer.

#8530 2 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

I'm not so sure. They have to ship pins to keep their employees working, stay in business, etc...
Sending out playfields that have the same problem costs them money and still doesn't satisfy the customer.

I think we are mostly saying the same thing... I think the only thing we aren't sure about is who put the kibosh on sending out PF's (even if the PF potentially has the same problem) after all these years of issues.

#8531 2 years ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

My John Deere lawn tractor blew some smoke after mowing yard last night. It’s brand new with 5 hrs on it.
I paid 2600 bucks for it. The dealer is coming to look at it at my house and fix/diagnose the issue. If the have to take it then it’ll be a few days before returning. Now that’s a warranty. My wife was laughing because it’s taken Stern 8 months now to get my replacement playfield for Jurassic and that cost 7500. What a joke these pinball manufacturers are. They have the best customers though. Pay through the roof for a non existing warranty and sub par service. Distributors just lay back and take the cash and say sorry. I am glad I finally learned to just buy second hand and only rotate a game in my four game collection every other year.

Would the dealer come to your house to look at a paint scratch or some kind of blemish? Would they take the tractor away, strip it down, fully repaint it, reassemble, and deliver it back for free? That would be the better analogy.

#8532 2 years ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

Would the dealer come to your house to look at a paint scratch or some kind of blemish? Would they take the tractor away, strip it down, fully repaint it, reassemble, and deliver it back for free? That would be the better analogy.

There’d be no need for any analogy if they made a quality product they stand behind.

#8533 2 years ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

There’d be no need for any analogy if they made a quality product they stand behind.

Well sure, they should make a better product and have a better warranty. They should lower their prices, too. That's all wishful thinking.

#8534 2 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Mirco has a large business outside of JJP. Seems like their non JJP playfields should have similar problems.

Good to know, will avoid buying from them. It would great if another playfield supplier gave us a better option.
Anyone who thinks the printing/clearcoating issues are easy to solve, here's your opportunity to make a bundle!

#8535 2 years ago
Quoted from jawjaw:Would the dealer come to your house to look at a paint scratch or some kind of blemish? Would they take the tractor away, strip it down, fully repaint it, reassemble, and deliver it back for free? That would be the better analogy.

That's a bad analogy for 2 reasons.

#1 the paint on a mower is not of equal importance to the "paint" on a playfield. The playfield is as important as the engine is on a mower imo

#2 if the paint on JD mowers suddebly started flaking off in giant chunks within weeks or months of ownership they most likely would do something about it. That's a glaring issue.

#8536 2 years ago
#8537 2 years ago

Spare a thought for these young corporate entities just trying to make a living selling boutique products at prices that far exceed the BOM, who then completely wash their hands of any QC issues and make customers wait months to be made whole, or fiat out ignore correspondence completely. It’s just growing pains!

It’s not their fault they’re well aware of playfield issues and have done absolutely nothing to rectify it. That costs money! Money that would be better served sitting on the balance sheet.

-17
#8538 2 years ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

That's a bad analogy for 2 reasons.
#1 the paint on a mower is not of equal importance to the "paint" on a playfield. The playfield is as important as the engine is on a mower imo
#2 if the paint on JD mowers suddebly started flaking off in giant chunks within weeks or months of ownership they most likely would do something about it. That's a glaring issue.

Disagree, how many fantastic playing older games are out there with heavily worn playfields? Chipping is purely a cosmetic issue...

#8539 2 years ago
Quoted from nicoy3k:

Disagree, how many fantastic playing older games are out there with heavily worn playfields? Chipping is purely a cosmetic issue...

Why the downvotes? It's technically true. None of these issues prevent games from working 100% and earning money on location. To equate these issues as catastrophic failures like an engine grenading in a car is a stretch. That doesn't mean it's not important just a whole separate thing.

#8540 2 years ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

Why the downvotes? It's technically true. None of these issues prevent games from working 100% and earning money on location. To equate these issues as catastrophic failures like an engine grenading in a car is a stretch. That doesn't mean it's not important just a whole separate thing.

Because the playfield to pinball is the monitor to an arcade game. Yes, burn in doesnt hurt a video game, but boy oh boy does it look like shit. 100 times out of 100 will I play on a game with a non blown out playfield over the same game that has a trashed one. Same for the arcade analogy.

#8541 2 years ago
Quoted from Doctor6:

Because the playfield to pinball is the monitor to an arcade game. Yes, burn in doesnt hurt a video game, but boy oh boy does it look like shit. 100 times out of 100 will I play on a game with a non blown out playfield over the same game that has a trashed one. Same for the arcade analogy.

It’s still not a correct analogy. Chipping around posts that can be easily touched up and is invisible during gameplay is in no way akin to a broken monitor. At all.

I’m not trying to minimize the issue, at the prices we pay it’s a big deal and JJPs response has been pathetic. But the comparisons to situations where other products are rendered literally unusable is completely laughable. This hobby has been littered with pooling and chipping across all manufacturers for years and we have all enjoyed the games just as much. The issue here is with JJP and their abysmal/shady business practices. POtC with pooling and chipping are selling for 20+k, I think the games still work.

#8542 2 years ago
Quoted from nicoy3k:

It’s still not a correct analogy. Chipping around posts that can be easily touched up and is invisible during gameplay is in no way akin to a broken monitor. At all.
I’m not trying to minimize the issue, at the prices we pay it’s a big deal and JJPs response has been pathetic. But the comparisons to situations where other products are rendered literally unusable is completely laughable. This hobby has been littered with pooling and chipping across all manufacturers for years and we have all enjoyed the games just as much. The issue here is with JJP and their abysmal/shady business practices. POtC with pooling and chipping are selling for 20+k, I think the games still work.

You are missing the point entirely. Stop talking, please.

#8543 2 years ago
Quoted from nicoy3k:

It’s still not a correct analogy. Chipping around posts that can be easily touched up and is invisible during gameplay is in no way akin to a broken monitor. At all.

He is talking about monitor burn in. You can still play the game, it just doesn't look as good.

#8544 2 years ago

The big elephant in the room is the aftermarket perceived value. What I keep hearing on all these threads, not just JJP or Stern, or CGC, or etc., it doesn't matter which manufacturer, but people are buying the games playing them, then when the thrill is gone, selling them off for more than they paid for them, and buying the next "new shiny thing".

Now if the old shiny has been played for more than 200 games (some magic non sequitur number that collectors keep pulling out of their butts) and it's chipping and peeling, your investment is impacted, your resale value drops and you are left with a sub par machine that you have to try and pawn off on some newbie.

I believe it is this narrative that drives the playfield perfectionists and their desire to break out the pitchforks and torches and go looking for some QC department manager's head to chop off when their "investment" is tarnished by manufacturing defects.

I can still remember the days when I went looking for a pin, I had to choose between a blown out, lost art, bare wood players machine, or a slightly well used and dinged up route queen. There was not a lot of NIB HUO machines to choose from, and buying a pin NIB for HUO was something only the obscenely wealthy or well off could afford.

Now we have your average pinhead newbie who is a baby boomer or GenXer, with empty nest syndrome, kids out of college, and they are discovering the hobby, and going whole hog into collecting. Their collections, however, are not like the old schoolers, where we bought our machines to keep mostly forever, they are buying what they like to play and selling what has gotten "old".

It's this churn of buying and selling that fuels the FOMO now when pins are introduced, people just have to have the latest shiny thing, which since they are not made of money, something old has to go to buy the new, either financially, or space wise.

Now throw the monkey wrench of playfield defects (which do not affect the "fun" but do affect the "worth") and you have set the current shitstorm a-brewing.

Since I am not currently affected by the problem with any of my machines, it is interesting to see how the rest of the hobby reacts to this, most falling into one of two camps, enjoy the machine and quitchurbitchin, or "this is an affront to the pinball gods and we want blood (or a new populated playfield, and bring it back here place it next to the first one, but only slightly higher to give a two level effect, with a little path running down the middle... a path! a path!)

#8545 2 years ago

Can you imagine buying a firearm with the same level of issues and known QC problems as JJP?

It would be like buying a shotgun hoping the barrel stays intact when you pull the trigger.

I cannot begin to imagine cutting a $10K check hoping it all just works out for me after years of evidence here to the contrary.

I played JP Premiun on site yesterday. Absolutely fantastic game. I want one (JP Pro) so much.m. I am even willing to consider trading Shadow for one. But then I "reality check" myself with this thread, and I cannot do it. Best of my knowledge, no one here could take any Stern game and 100% guarantee me these issues are gone, and that really sucks.

I want a JP badly, but no way in hell am I taking that risk. Sucks to sit on the sideline, but I'll buy one used, years from now before I go NIB hoping it all works out.

#8546 2 years ago
Quoted from nicoy3k:

Disagree, how many fantastic playing older games are out there with heavily worn playfields? Chipping is purely a cosmetic issue...

Quoted from jawjaw:

Why the downvotes? It's technically true. None of these issues prevent games from working 100% and earning money on location. To equate these issues as catastrophic failures like an engine grenading in a car is a stretch. That doesn't mean it's not important just a whole separate thing.

Yeah except those games probably have 10's of thousands of plays on them, from the gorilla handed public, with little to no care taken before they showed that wear. Plus, they were not designed to last very long, and the value is severely dimished. They also didn't cost 9-13k, nor were they designed primarily for the home market or to be collectors items.

-1
#8547 2 years ago
Quoted from Palmer:

He is talking about monitor burn in. You can still play the game, it just doesn't look as good.

I know what he's talking about. Post chipping is invisible during gameplay, horrible analogy.

#8548 2 years ago
Quoted from NPO:

Can you imagine buying a firearm with the same level of issues and known QC problems as JJP?
It would be like buying a shotgun hoping the barrel stays intact when you pull the trigger.
I cannot begin to imagine cutting a $10K check hoping it all just works out for me after years of evidence here to the contrary.
I played JP Premiun on site yesterday. Absolutely fantastic game. I want one (JP Pro) so much.m. I am even willing to consider trading Shadow for one. But then I "reality check" myself with this thread, and I cannot do it. Best of my knowledge, no one here could take any Stern game and 100% guarantee me these issues are gone, and that really sucks.
I want a JP badly, but no way in hell am I taking that risk. Sucks to sit on the sideline, but I'll buy one used from now before I go NIB hoping it all works out.

Again, how is paint falling off a wood plank the same as a firearm that explodes under use and could kill you? Ridiculous.

#8549 2 years ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

You are missing the point entirely. Stop talking, please.

Please enlighten me as to how I'm missing the point.

#8550 2 years ago
Quoted from Lermods:

Elvira was when the issues were solved with noticeably thinner clear and no artwork around posts.

I wouldn’t say that they solved the clear issue with Elvira. Many of the LE owners had planking/ribbing that was very noticeable due to thin clear coat.

DB5B35D2-AAED-4125-8A16-3ABE3735D792 (resized).jpegDB5B35D2-AAED-4125-8A16-3ABE3735D792 (resized).jpeg

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