Yeah that theory proved itself with POTC....

I have a better idea. Don't buy any NIB pins.

So the current response from JJP wasn’t the answer I was looking for. I’ll give them a few more days before we get the ball rolling.

Good luck you go get em!

If you choose to do that, that is fine.

Some of us choose to enjoy the hobby and enjoy what is coming out. We also choose to work out something that works for us and keeps us happy in the hobby.

Life is good and we are lucky to be making these choices.

These owners have not let JJP sink 3 times, they’ve bailed them out. They are not about to stop bailing out their pet company. Billionaire owner will never let it sink, not to worry, they’ll do it again at 4, 5 or even 6 times too! JJP problems are chump change to a billionaire.

Perfect solution!!!

Why wait? Whats the advantage of waiting?

Life was good in pinball until my Jurassic Park premium started having playfield issues. Still waiting in a new replacement 8 months later after promised.

What issues is your JP Premium playfield having?

Better than being told none at all, i heard jp is on the line so that should mean there’s playfields available

I will hit up Stern and my distributor now.

Sent you a pm

Is thinner clear from Stern a way to reduce pooling / chipping? I thought I once read that too much much clear can cause issues as well. I suppose the downside is slightly raised inserts like you said but if it's cleared over they should be fine. I've had some games in the past with thinner clear and slightly raised inserts with thousands of plays and there were no issues.

Opinion but I think the thinner clear transition was to mitigate the Overly visible dimpling.

Dang. You're still waiting?

Took 14 months for my friend's replacement, but they made good.

Yes still.

14 months is ludicrous.

Did not find any information about that. Where did you hear this? It would not be legal in the EU to sell used games as new.

Interesting, I did notice thinner clear but less dimpling on some of the latest Stern's I played on location. A few of the inserts on an AIQ LE I played looked slightly raised, some only 1 side just barely raised (could see edge). Is that intentional and or just a side affect of thinner clear?

Yep, the side effect of minimizing the clear to mitigate (minimize) dimples is typically a visible outline at the inserts. Have noticed that myself. Guess they are searching for the happy medium.

Good to know. I suppose that works, sounds better then the mini moon crater filled playfields we once saw from Stern. I'm glad Stern is doing something versus JJP.

My SW Pro built March 2021 has a thinner clear coat. It looks great and the dimples are minor in size in my opinion.

GnR SE’s are not being made anymore. After another run of LE’s they are finished

that's sales talking...

Oh it will, perhaps when the market for GnR enters a lull period you will see the next batch of PotC enter the production line...perhaps a super limited run of Captains versions to kick it off.

No they are on hold (not for sale) with the long line wait for the LEs. No sense offering to sell a game they can’t make for a year.

zaphX hey Derek, I saw the last picture you posted and to me it kind of looks like the guitar neck is starting to crack and chip, is this the case or am I seeing things? Let me know. Also you opinion and solutions are valid and welcomed. We are all here to share ideas and give each other’s tips and share what works. If your guitar is starting to chip, any resolution?

Do you have any issue with your game that you can share?

Looks like a small one might be starting. I'll touch it up with a sharpie or black model if it gets bad. Painter's tape to get a straight edge, etc.

Interesting. I saw one machine that has a big chunk missing off the end of the guitar head. Makes no sense because the ball just rolls off the edge.

Pfft. Looks like only 350 of us need to get together and we can get one of these and do some experimenting to get playfields made to our spec, one for each of the 350 @ $500. Now, we just need to get ahold of the art file...

Just for posterity, add another GnR LE to the list of defective playfields. no chipping by the sling posts(yet) that came with clear washers. Checked the pop bumper posts and discovered artwork chipped off. My guess is that JJP/Mirco have no idea on how to solve these crap playfield issues. Until they ever figure it out, any new game will most likely suffer the same fate in time. I can’t justify buying a new JJP again until it’s absolutely clear that it is solved. It’s definitely not solved. My Sterns don’t pool and chip around posts(artwork removed) but they have chipped along ball guides. Just seems like any artwork that is physically touched by a post or ball guide/ramp will chip in time on Stern and JJP playfields.

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What’s worse than JJP making bad playfields? Well, the fact that they continue to build and ship games with bad playfields. But even worse is staying silent AND ignoring customer communications.

I have emailed two people at Jersey Jack over a 2 weeks ago about this issue and not one single response. Yet in those two weeks they have posted 3 social media posts about opening a merch shop, shipping games to Austria, and Memorial Day. My lawyer is building up a case, and I know I’m not the only one being ignored by JJP. There is obvious negligence on their behalf. This is bad business and not helping their case. I keep telling my lawyer to wait and hold off, but as we wait, it gets even worse for JJP as the evidence is just continuously piling up. Not good. I like JJP, but JJP needs to show the same love to its customers, otherwise we have to resort to legal action. For a company to not fix a known issue, to continue to make machines with this issue and to not respond to any customers, sends the message that they don’t care about you, no plans to addressing it, and therefore we have no choice but to use our legal rights. A small part of me that is getting smaller and smaller, wants to believe they are trying to fix this behind the scenes, but that small part is diminishing and that is the only thing holding me back from going ahead with the suit. Being disrespected with being delivered a known defective product and then not returning emails is not what a call being honorable.

I would bet they are trying to fix the problem. Why wouldn't they? But trying doesn't mean solving and they have to keep the factory going to stay in business. I don't want to apologize for them but it's a nightmare of a situation to be in.

How do you think it would affect their business if they publically announced that their playfields may pool or chip and that although they're working to solve the problem they don't know if or when they will find a solution.

We want transparency but it seems like bad news without a solution is never received well.

An inconvenient Truth:

Absolutely nothing will change until they find a new playfield supplier.

When I first heard they were Doing DTS printing for Playfields, I though, Hmm... what a novel idea. If it works, it could revolutionize playfield production by:

-allowing for remakes easily,
-would really speed up the playfield pipeline,
-eliminate the drawbacks of screen printing,
-remove the whole process of developing and using all the different inks and paints and dyes,
-the necessity of determining optimum color trapping, layer order, cure times, etc...
-reduction of registration to a single, one shot mechanical centering on the printer...

All kinds of benefits. Then the ugly truth raised its head and we find the artwork is actually a thin film web itself, and when it receives MASSIVE side loaded forces, tears away from the substrate and surrounding artwork, and forms a sub clear void or bubble.

Then the CC hardens at the edges of the bubble, there is nothing keeping it from receiving additional MASSIVE side forces which causes buckling and the brittle CC starts to crack and break free... and a Chip is born.

The reason removing the artwork has worked for Stern is the bare wood below the posts gets the initial clear prep layer, but no thin film color layer is there to detach and start a chip.

So the problem is the DTS thin film color layer and its ability to maintain adhesion even though the post is imparting massive side loads to a major area of the thin film color web.

HEP's solution to use smaller washers means there is less color film layer exposed to the side forces, so even if the artwork lets go, the small footprint is still hidden by the larger post or washer above it.

It all comes back to the de-lamination of the thin film color layer from the substrate due to huge side forces. So like vid1900 said, this ain't changing until they change the DTS printing process which means dumping Mirco.

The problem is, the solution is not economical if they are to maintain the production rates that Miro's process has got them addicted to... CGC learned that lesson on MB with the delays their screen printing process added to its delivery schedule.

If the problem is inherent to DTS, shouldn't Spooky have the same issue? Regardless, if removing the art under high stress areas fixes the issue, I think most people would be okay with that.

Have you not seen what happened to a lot TNA playfields?

Even then nothing will change until JJP changes their formula and factory install techniques. They have to stop printing art under posts and order far less clearcoat, as to be thinner, and change undercoat tech, which improves DTS printing. JJP could make this change with Mirco and be fine. Why wouldn’t Mirco be willing to make these changes, that their boss JJP mandates? The buck stops with JJP. JJP changes formula/orders and Mirco will comply.

I think they deserve less sympathy on this because it's been a known issue for years. They've had multiple chances to address this issue before turning the line back on, and have made a calculated risk that it's not worth the time and/or expense to really fix it right. Perhaps this has now crossed the point where it finally comes back to bite them and they really do have to shut things down while they bring up a new supplier/process, and make existing customers whole.

Yes, but they supposedly fixed the problem.

I disagree. Mirco is the supplier and should be the expert in what they do, making quality playfields. Is it the supermarket's responsibility to tell Nabisco how to adjust their ovens because the Chips Ahoy cookies aren't getting baked enough? (Yes, this has been a problem with some batches)

JJP could remove artwork if so directed by Mirco or just to see if it helps. JJP could refuse to pay for playfields that don't meet the standards agreed upon. JJP can try to find another supplier.

I don't think it's JJP's responsibility to fix Mirco's problems, but JJP is responsible for the quality, including the playfield, of the games they ship to customers.

Some things are not so easy to fix, if at all. Playfield clear coat issues with DTS printing seems like one of these things, otherwise I don't think we'd be seeing all these problems from different manufacturers.

What if keeping the line turned off for an indefinite amount of time means shutting down the company? What do you do?

That is not fixing the problem.

Removing the art from under the posts is just a band-aid that does nothing to fix the ink adhesion problem.

Real playfields are sometimes stored for years in unheated garages. Can you imagine what would happen if one of these playfields were exposed to freezing temperatures for a season???

Seems to me Mirco just doesn’t want to eat the money for his very expensive DTS. Which was a complete failure. We need to go back to the old way of ink adhesion IMO. While they are at it make sure your clear is as good as you can make it. If it takes longer. So be it. I would rather wait a little longer for the correct product without massive defects. B/W pumped out plenty of machines while maintaining high quality playfields. So I don’t want to hear it can’t be done. Profits and greed are the only reasons the powers that be are leading you to believe they couldn’t stay in business with similar systems of manufacturing to B/W of the 90’s.

If it's truly "indefinite", then they shouldn't be in business. Perhaps it is time for them to just shut the whole thing down and go home.

There's a known path back to old materials + processes, but they seem unwilling to invest the time and/or cost in building those supplier relationships (or have already alienated everyone who could help). Alternatively, they could bring it in house and iterate until they get it right.

Sadly yes they are. The OEM is responsible for every component they deliver to the end consumer good and bad. If like other manufacturers there is a recall it falls on the OEM to make it right and assign restitution and help find a solution or find a new resource. My Guess is JJP needs Mirco equally. They both hold each others business in the others hands so nobody is willing to play chicken with necessary threats as they would both sink trying to find a new source for product or consumer with thousands of orders on the books let alone the future business plans. Seems the most successful companies always had a backup resource supplier vs the old putting all your eggs in one basket like they have going on now. This will be a tough journey for both.

Guess I wasn't clear, I agree that JJP has to back every component they ship to a customer, according to their warranty, but I don't think it's their job to solve the problems their suppliers are having. Sure, it's in JJP's best interest to do all they can to help their suppliers if they can.

Mirco has a large business outside of JJP. Seems like their non JJP playfields should have similar problems.