this is absolutely not the case. Its a lottery no matter when you order your game. We've seen games be ok then be terrible in later runs (BK:SOR springs to mind as does IMDN).
Although since then Stern have sorted the pooling/chipping out.

They know about these issues from the beginning but just continue to sell inferior products

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so 3 months between PF creation and machine build
Accounting for transportation time, and time in hold at JJP before build - doesn't seem like Mirco is giving these a lot of cure time

I find it hard to believe that some playfields are 100% fine while others have pooling/chipping. IMO most if not all the playfields will eventually have the same negative issues.

Stern should just post a bag of chips on their social platforms as a nice little rib at the competitors, and maybe that will get JJP to do something about their product. Also, a class action lawsuit might be in the making. Spoke with my lawyer friend who doesn’t specialize in class action, but is going to put me in touch with someone who does. Don’t want to do it, but if we don’t hear anything from JJP soon, I’ll have to explore options, because if they don’t care, then I don’t care either!

To know with certainty the playfields are being properly painted and cleared, there needs be test that can be run by JJP, prior to installing or paying for them. Obviously, Mirco can perform same test to verify the playfields are good, but they are also tasked with doing it right the first time. Any playfields don’t pass the test, they don’t get used or paid for. They are returned to Mirco who now sands both sides and repeats process. So the valuable playfield blank is not lost, it’s a only redo. This will accelerate the process of JJP switching to Vader or CGC or requiring Mirco to screen print their playfields. Better yet they jump ship ASAP. But until that happens ...

That test exists now and should be run on every playfield arriving at JJP. Not the post test currently being screwed in, but the popsicle test. After gluing sticks to playfield, they are pulled off and the force required is measured. A low amount of force that can pull stick off and whether paint comes off with clear, indicates low cross bonding. JJP should make effective immediately, all playfields will now have artwork printed and cleared on the UNDER side of playfield too. Then any testing of paint to cc adhesion could be done at will by anyone at anytime and it doesn’t destroy the playfield for use. Costs more, but it is only reliable way to ensure you are building the pin with a GOOD playfield.

There is nothing to figure out, screened playfields didn't have these issues; like everything these days, moving away from playfield screening is entirely a cost driven decision and since collectors machines continue to sell out before the first machines even enter production why should the manufactures even consider changing anything?

I will camp out here and wait to see how Mandolorian playfields do.

Anyone know the details of the printing process? Do they screen a layer of white before they print, or does the bare playfield blank go straight to the printer? Maybe a bit of old tech can solve the problem?

I don't believe anything from maybe AIQ and definitely LZ forward has had any problems minus the occasional warped playfield or rail digging into the playfield. I have a SW Pro built in March of 2021 and it is gorgeous 250 plays later. Just very minor dimpling which we should expect.

No. Costs may be less, but the new method allows for much better color and resolution on the playfields than can be done with screens. Look at AIQ or Turtles artwork (AIQ below) - you simply couldn't have the smooth gradients, sharp resolution and wide variety of colors like this with 90s and earlier screen printing technology. All screened playfields feature solid colors, with occasional dithering with rather visible dots.

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I heard an interesting podcast a year or two ago, where an old-williams designer talked about playfields, revealing that when they had a new formula/method for the playfields, they made 10% or so with the new method and then checked out how they faired over time.

Smart move, since if it doesnt work out, it´s only a subset going down and that can be sorted. If it workes out, it´ll be implemented for the next game.

point is, to be 100% sure, you need lots of field tests.

You have a valid argument, but do you think if this higher resolution came with an increase in costs you would see any manufactures move this way to create a higher quality product?

If we don’t hear anything from JJP soon, I will have no choice but to start complying a list of affected customers to present to lawyer. Time to take action, talking about it is over. JJP knows this is an issues they are not taking care of it. They disrespected customers with sending them washers. They don’t care, so time to make them care. Last call JJP. And before anyone complains lawyers end up with millions and we get a $50 check. A $50 check and accountability from JJP is worth a lot more than a bag of washers and continued screwing of customers. I am a reasonable person and will watch for a JJP response. If I don’t hear anything soon, then I will go ahead. No more pounding sand.

<Arrested Development Narrator> "He wasn't."

Derek we get it. Sometimes I think you believe you work for JJP. No need to come on here honestly! You talk in the owners thread how people should go to this thread and talk about playfield issues because you don’t want to see it anymore and here you are again. We know your opinion on the issue and don’t need to hear about it anymore. Yes I’m reasonable as I have told JJP the issue and they don’t want to resolve it, or even respond at this point. This is a warning, giving it time, and then last resort. This is a playfield issue thread. Let’s talk about that instead of how much you and your wife like playing your patched up CE, did you collect the carbon fiber patch on the game? I heard it gives you brownie points booster for the next song.

Some people are more malleable then others, and conditioned to expect less.

Some are not, thus this thread...

Hey Spartacus, you be you.

He's right. You seem like a nice guy, but the constant fellating of jjp is very bizarre. The company has really turned into a bunch of bastards, and backing them with such ferocity does raise a few eyebrows. I'm all for brand loyalty, but you make some pretty hurtful and, dare I say, ignorant comments when people are being screwed over by jjp.

I love their games and want them to stick around to make more, simple as that.

"Being screwed over by JJP" implies that this happened due to malice and intent, which I strongly disagree with.
It's as unfortunate for them as it is for us. Is it wrong for me to have empathy?

That being said, it's time for me to bug out of the playfield thread again and let you guys do your thing. The main instigator has moved his grievances from the owner's thread as I requested, so it's only fair for me to let you guys have your space in peace.

I will say though, I think a class action lawsuit helps no one but the lawyers and hurts us all. That is not the way.

I agree with;
“I love their games“. I do too, that’s why I bought it!

I don’t think JJP intended for playfields to be crap again. I agree with you. However, they are screwing customers by not issuing a fair resolution, AND, continuing to make games knowing this. NOW there is intent because the know, and they continue to make them. No excuse there.

It is not wrong to have empathy. But you are not having empathy for the people that are being hurt. JJP isn’t being hurt, the are doing the hurting. It also isn’t wrong to be brand loyal, but telling everyone their issues don’t matter is not the right way to do it. Our issues do matter. I’m happy you enjoy your machine and it doesn’t matter to you, but you can’t force your acceptance onto others.

And I will say this, I totally agree that a class action suit is not good for anyone. I don’t want to do it, but, what other choice do we have now? I know what you will say, tape it and enjoy the game, but that’s not what I bought. Again the empathy should come in and 10k is not a drop in the bucket for me. So ultimately, I agree, I’m a fan of JJP, but JJP made an error and instead of fixing it, they are not responding to customers and even worse they know the issue and continue to make machines with these issues.

You’re a good guy and I love the passion behind JJP. I share that passion. I love talking about this game. Trust me I hate talking about the playfield, but it needs to be addressed and I’m afraid the only way is legal action. Sucks.

Also you kind of showed your cards in the first sentence. You’re just attempting to stop people from talking about the issues because you want more games, selfish is being masked as empathy. And it’s okay to look out for oneself and self interests, I’m not against that, we are the same. I’m looking out for myself and my purchase.

Funny you mention you be you. Cause you act like you just found you a few years ago when you started in the pin hobby. Just because you like your new pin persona doesn’t mean you have to defend all the pinball companies showing poor quality in different areas. Don’t worry the industry won’t go away just because a pin company is held accountable for poor quality. Both can survive. You can still be Pin Derek...........

Do you have any pics of the damage on your game that you can share? I assume you received it, right?

Don't be a simp for JJP or any company.

I don't think anybody is accusing JJP of intentionally producing and selling defective PF's, but at this point what they are intentionally doing is not addressing the quality issue to customer's satisfaction.

Whats sad is some of the games are now coming with defects that are visible right out of the box, that is intentional. They have to notice it at the factory and just box it up and send it out, yes my le didn’t start chipping till 100 Plays, but the powder coat had marks from the factory not from shipping. Their position is “thats pinball”

That’s awesome Palmer . Well played.

Fwiw I don’t think it’s fine. I’m a realist and I’m dealing with it as best I can for now with plans to do a playfield swap at some point. Short term playing as usual, long term planning for some kind of repair waiting to see what that might be.

I guess the main difference of opinion here is that I don’t think JJP needs to be “forced” to find a solution; I believe they are as interested as we are in solving the problem.

Maybe I’m being naive. I just believe in assuming positive intent.

I do 100% agree with this. I don't think any viable company that cares about their future wants to continually produce and sell faulty product.
The issue is when defective products do make their way into the marketplace, how does the company handle it?
So far JJP is not handling it well on either end - solving the issue and taking care of the customer - as the problem has persisted for many years now.

I hear ya. Just trying to lighten things up.

TL;DR
Part of the problem is the acceptance of defects for years on PFs by the people actually buying these things to use in a coin-op entertainment business. As a business, these machines were and are still depreciated until their value and worth is zero on the books. At this point, they got either dumped in the trash after stripping them of parts, or sold off to the the general public, which was at one time a rare thing to see, since it might actually cut into revenue if you sell it to a regular customer who might now drop less coin in your other machines on location. Fast forward to now and that same business thinking is still here in the industry, however the paradigm shift of the worth of a pinball machine due to Non Commercial Use, (i.e. HUO) is making machines retain their value, plus parts and manufacturing processes are now available to keep them looking shiny which again leads to perceived retention of value. Now you place this money making device into a collectors market where FOMO has taken a firm grip of everyone. And better yet, you divide the market into smaller segments by offering three to four (even dare we say five?) trim levels on machines. Now we have people who fear missing out on a great earnings potential (the actual coin drop), or they fear missing out on a great potential "flip" of the machine in the aftermarket as popularity drives the aftermarket prices through the roof, or they fear missing out on a great flipping shooter with a great ruleset/integration/artwork/theme/toys/callouts/music. Either way, the thing that has changed the most is the perceived value of a pinball machine, that it's actual existence in the world makes it more valuable than a machine used to earn a living with. This is the reason playfield issues (minor issues from a "use it to make money" standpoint) are now getting so much press. It flys in the face of everyones perceived value of their machine with the possible exception of some operators. The distributor sales model has always been in place to limit the impact of defects on the manufacturer. Its the reason you gave them a slice of the pie. Now days, the distributor has nothing to offer his customers that can appease their disgust with the playfield issues. And if a distributor tries to start holding their feet to the fire, you think Stern or JJP is going to do anything? Nope. They can tell the distributor to pack sand, and oh yeah you now only get 1 LE for every 15 pros you buy. See how this works? Been doing this for years in the industry, don't think it is going to change overnight.

We have had to deal with all manner of issues over the years.

My maiden cabinet was split on arrival, but at least Stern stepped up and replaced it.

The playfield issues on GnR are the worst I have ever seen, they just cannot be accepted and ignored.

I wanted a GnR but no way would I risk buying one at the moment.

I thought you were leaving.

This is interesting:

Just for the heck of it, I looked up printers for large areas (i.e. a PF). Looks like 'UV ink' printers seem to be the trend to use nowadays. Apparently UV is used to instantly cure the ink, eliminating the solvent based ink problems of running/soaking in/etc., allowing for the vibrant, well defined colors. But UV ink is essentially an adhesive, unlike solvent based inks (that immediately caught my attention).

So I googled a little more about UV ink adhesion problems. One web site even mentions putting down a clear undercoat to improve adhesion: https://www.rolanddga.com/blog/2016/06/06/19/18/improve-adhesion-with-a-clear-undercoat

The UV lamp itself can be an issue, but I would think that could easily be resolved if that was the case. There's various UV inks too that can affect the outcome. Wood prep (i.e. flatness, contaminants) is an issue too.

A quick blurb on UV printing: https://www.perfectcolours.com/blog/2015/08/03/what-is-uv-printing/

I wonder if Mirco boxed themselves into a corner with a very expensive UV printer that can only handle proprietary UV inks, perhaps ones that aren't as well suited for wood? Just like your printer at home, probably none use a standardized print cartridge. And given the cost of a large UV printer - likely switching to an alternative ink other than the manufacture's products is a big 'no go'.

Here's a quick SnipIt of a random large UV flatbed printer:
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If JJP (barry engler) said hey man we know this is an issue, we are working on a solution, play your game and enjoy it, your on the list for when we have a resolve dont worry, instead it ownership and upper management are well aware of the problem and we decided we will no longer be replacing playfields at all. And before you brush me off as a picky collector, which im not , ive been involved with pinball a long time. I have emails date and time stamped from barry and from jack himself for that matter. This is a decision from the top, they are telling many customers the same thing and thats why everybody is upset

I looked really closely at the Mandalorian playfield pics and it appears Stern has removed art from under the guide rails on this one. They are listening to our complaints and, at least, trying to make these issues a thing of the past. With this latest move, even if the rail is overtightened into the wood, it won't cause art chipping. Progress. I can see them removing art from reruns of past titles to affect the same positive change.

They are also using different types of guides in most cases that do not go through the playfield. Those allow to keep the rail off he playfield except for the attachment points. High impact rails like the horseshoe under the right ramp I think have to be through playfield mounting. Those are the highest risk for digging into the playfield. Apron too.

Well said. Thats how easy it would've been to calm my concerns and I'd still own a GNR. Unfortunately that didn't happen.

To this day, I still don't know why Stern rails rest directly on the playfield as there is literally no reason for it; these can easily be raised 1-2mm off the board by simply adjusting the bends for the mount points.

Well, JJP is majority owned by a billionaire. So even if JJP lost a class-action suit, there couldn't possibly be any judgment that would force the company to close it's doors. Unless the Abesses wanted it to. Which would be on them, not on the plaintiffs.

Huh? A company succeeds on its own success or failure. The value of the investor or their past accomplishments are not vicariously attached to this new investment. If the company proves insolvent it simply sinks.

In theory yes, but sometimes rich business owners have a deep-rooted desire to keep things going long past the point of no financial return.

Should be a no-brainer, right? Every rail on a new pin is likely original (i.e not using old stock). Seems like "We shouldn't do this" should kick in rather quickly.

Lead times on new parts might be an issue tho.

Someone say Deeproot?

You and me both.

My recommendation for the next JJP game is, don’t buy it. Now...that’s not going to happen, but listen up. CEs, I can’t convince anyone to not buy. So go ahead get a CE. But that’s it. Don’t buy the LE because they will be around for years and so will the SEs. If JJP sees only 500 ppl bought their pin (CE total), message received. And you won’t lose out on your LE or SE. They either fix the problem, or have to sell those LEs and SEs at a discount, as no one is buying them.