2 & 3 are not mutually exclusive
You can workaround the wear and enjoy your game while complaining to the company and demanding they do something to fix and improve the issues

One way to help reduce the chance of your game having playfield or other manufacturing issues is to wait 6 months from when the first batch of games are shipped. Early manufacturing issues are often caught in the initial production runs and later corrected. At these prices getting a game early isn't worth the headaches of dealing with issues in my opinion.

I've read multiple reports about GNR CE's and LE's with pooling / chipping and almost all are from December 2020 or January 2021. We now know that games from around that time did not come with washers installed at the JJP factory. Reports of pooling / chipping seem to drop heavily after that. However, I did read one report of an owner with an April 2021 build that had pooling at a post in the upper playfield area (no washer installed) despite the game having factory washers installed in other areas.

What difference does that make? I think it's perfectly fair to be critical of how buyers of these games are handling issues. How does it look to JJP when they ship out a replacement pf that is never installed? The game is then sold for as much or more than what the buyer paid for it with or without extra pf. I have yet to see any game with pf issues being sold with any significant discounted. Nothing even remotely close to cost of new pf. Again, how does that look to the manufacturers? Are these not fair questions?

Ah well, if you have a simple solution, give them a phone call and the problem is solved.

Except they have been having the identical issue going back to Pirates ...

Receiving an unpopulated playfield is basically an indirect way of them sending you a check for your headaches. 95% of people are not capable of installing a new playfield. Their best option is to hang it on their wall or sell it. JJP should send a populated playfield and require that you send your damaged, populated playfield back. That would be the right thing to do.

It also doesn’t matter if these games are being sold privately for a profit, even when there is playfield damage. The buyer has the option of buying it knowing what condition it’s in. When buying new you don’t expect the playfield to literally tear within a month of owning it. You expect the game to be in excellent condition for x number of years with proper care. And that doesn’t mean having to install 30 plastic washers everywhere

They have and what's odd is things improved with playfields in later runs on Pirates, Wonka, and now GNR. Why the early runs were affected the most who knows but it seems to be a pattern. It's still on JJP as they continue to put defective playfields in their games. It seems like JJP initially doesn't put any washers on for the first run of a new game, then the customer complaints start rolling in for pooling / chipping, and then they start installing factory washers at the factory...

It is frustrating. These issues are a big part of why I don't own more newer games. The Metallica I have is my 3rd copy! I love the game, but the first 2 that I purchased had serious problems. I finally got one that looks really nice and now I am hanging onto it. It really sucks to have to go through all of that to get a decent example of a game you love and want to keep. I also got a Ghostbusters with ghosting inserts and a Pirates with pooling and chipping. I had problems with a Spooky title too. Amazingly, my 2016 build Walking Dead still looks pristine after thousands of plays. I'm hanging onto that too. I guess I'm just saying that I have gone through a lot of stress and drama buying new games and the ratio of bad to good has made me a lot less enthusiastic about new release titles in general. I want to see this problem solved so that those of us who care about the state of our machines can buy new games and not stress about what's in the box!

9ac476de26acc1acee1ec4be52aadb7d (resized).jpg

Hey, my playfield. Nice. And for the record that new one and the original with 8000 plays has no issue.

Not sure where you “found this out” but in comparing that playfield pic to the playfield in my machine just now it looks the same with art backed away from the posts. Here’s a pic I just took of my own playfield (and yes I recently waxed so there’s some wax buildup at the base of a few posts that I didn’t get off).

I completely swore off JJP games after the crap customer service I had on my POTC so I’m no fan of theirs at all. But I wanted to post this because it seems to me like the idea that there was art removed on prototypes but not on production might not be correct. Even though I won’t buy a JJP game and don’t give a rip about them I felt a fact check might still be in order here.

5880BFB4-AE68-4729-B910-200A5CFE44DF (resized).jpeg

Lol, you gotta be kidding me. I just saw @yelobird's post. You swiped his picture and told a story about it without checking it out, and tried to pass it off as you "finding something out" as though you got some inside scoop somewhere? This happens on Pinside way too much with people spreading around other people's pictures and telling stories that aren't their own and that aren't checked out. Again, I'm not a fan of JJP but I am also not a fan of telling someone else's story or spreading their pictures without any reference to the original person or checking out whether or not it's accurate.

Yes I recently found out from Yelobirds post, it was nice he shared it. I never said it was my game, I'm sorry I didn't quote him and his user name! I deleted the part about the prototype playfield as like you said it appears that artwork is indeed removed around production Pirates games.

The picture below is from a Pirates I used to own (please quote and give me credit if using it! lol) and artwork is indeed removed around the sling posts...just not very well.

eb5099726fbb016b5bee6d1ae3b4df72135723db (1) (resized).jpg

So what you posted was inaccurate, and you even had pictures of your own that you could have checked in order to see that what you were about to post was inaccurate? Awesome. I see you've now gone back and removed the pic from your original post and edited that post to remove your statement that JJP removed art from around the posts on prototypes but not on production machines and your conclusion that their whole mess with playfields could have been avoided if they hadn't made that change (the change that didn't happen).

Yup, I made a mistake, then commented on making the mistake (before you posted the snarky reply above), and corrected it. The original post I saw with that picture was presented in a way that artwork was not removed around posts in production games.

Time to move on!

I bought POTC with 350 part played and with chipping under a pole. After 300 games, a scaling occurred at the Tortuga hole. I bought the posts with mylar washers then a cliffy kit. Nothing can be seen anymore. It cost me 120 euros. I have played 1000 games since then and everything is OK. Personally, I do not find this dramatic. It's not provocation it's just my opinion.

So all that talk and you're a wait and see buyer and did not buy NIB. Apparently you ordered a GNR I guess it would be best if you get a shitty one. Saves another customer getting a bad one and you don't mind. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you and hope you can take one for JJP.

In the GNR owners thread there's another pooling / chipping report from a game with a 4/21 build date...That build date more then likely means any newly built game could have a playfield issue.

I have a 4/21 build (LE) and I have pooling

Did they note the Playfield date? As they were building CE games for many months it’s likely (not justified) that is a dec/Jan Playfield.

There's now a discussion thread blowing up on Facebook in the Jersey Jack Pinball Fans group. Things are getting noisy again. Too many units with issues.

Just saw that, another CE, damn...Factory washers did nothing to prevent the issue.

Screenshot_20210520-120243_Chrome (resized).jpg
Screenshot_20210520-120258_Chrome (resized).jpg

In fact on this thread of discussions where they said that JJP is crap and it's okay or we get lincher. Thank you for wishing me to have a shit game that reflects your rotten mentality. In truth JJP must be happy to no longer have as clients you and all your hateful buddies who have no objectivity. Keep on crying. I'm going to play a game. Biz

I planned on buying a NIB this year and really really wanted GNR. I chose DP instead because of the long wait time and potential playfield issues with GNR. I'm considering going for another NIB and I still want that GNR but with the playfields the way they are I just don't think I could pull the trigger. Its not an isolated issue in my mind. Its way too common. We saw it on other manufacturers games in the past, but they at least made a solid attempt at rectifying it. Mirco continues to blow smoke up everyones ass and I just cannot fathom why JJP is still in bed with him. Hopefully this is the last game where they use Mirco playfields.

I have exactly the same feeling as you!
Would like to own one but being so expensive and so plagued with issues I'm having a hard time to pull the trigger...

I was just hoping you could do your part to keep the production line moving. Also I think your sarcasm/mocking detector needs a tune up. You have a very low bar to start throwing things like rotten, hateful and "clients (people) like you" around. I was just poking a little fun at you online. I am sensing you are not a lot of fun at parties. I take it you like to dish it out but not one that enjoys the taste themselves.

JJP vs Stern hmmmm. I am still waiting on a Jurassic playfield 9 months now. Is that better than JJP. Curious.

That's kind of my point. These unpopulated playfields are basically a payment for headaches. They don't fix the problem or compensate anything. I can just see why JJP/Stern are reluctant to send them out for every issue. Expectations are just that, expectations. People keep expecting all these issues to be fixed but what is that based on?

My late run WW CE has pooling and chipping as does my GnR CE. They haven't solved this issue.

And I'm guessing you're not getting a play field replacement either, are you?

That sucks because some people in this hobby don't even keep games for 9 months :/

you are correct, my options were washers or sell my machine back to them. If they would really do the buyback that would be best in class customer service; provided you could buy a new one to replace it. Which of course when you are talking about CE's isn't an option since the number produced is limited.

TL;DR

I have worked with a silicon based high temp clear coating that we were developing to be used in the aircraft lighting industry, I am not an expert but I can offer my experiences-

Our pooling was the result of uncured (un-cross linked and under cross linked polymers) combined with physical pressure. What happens is the CC slowly continues to crosslink and starts hardening as the physical forces of the posts continues to provide pressure. This builds up a slowly increasing difference in force across the "pool" which acted like putting a putty knife under the pooled mass and pried it up. This force is happening because the shrink rate around the post is not linear. Any bond layer between the CC and substrate (i.e. the artwork bond of the inks to wood) will experience a gradient force over time that shears the bonds. This makes the CC the only thing from preventing the newly formed "chip" from coming completely free, until the CC becomes hardened and brittle enough that the force sheers the CC, the chip is now free to roam, and does.

The solution is to ensure the CC is completely crosslinked before installing the posts, which requires extended curing time, and or a curing accelerator (Some CC we used only cross linked at high temps and required a curing oven) but the main thing that has to occur is the CC under the posts needs to be completely cured prior to putting any pressure on the CC, and second, I would look at the bond strength of the artwork to the bare wood or whatever is on the wood. This can be tested by epoxy gluing popsicle sticks to the printed surface and pulling on the end and measuring the force required to separate it. You will find that screen printed inks and paints tend to have WAY more bond strength than DTS printing does.

The manufacturers don't seem to think solving this issue is a big priority. Yet.

You know how to handle sentences very well, and that's good for you. You should use them smarter I think. "I just laughed at you online" read my post that you laughed at and explain to me where the problem is !! J just explains that for me it is not a disaster if the playing fields are a little damaged. And I made it clear for people like you that it was not provocation. But no that is not enough. "you don t buy nib and it speaks" "I hope you have a shitty game" "keep a finger for JJP" well done mister party animal, nice analysis.

I've allready done just that.

It's an obvious solution.

I don't undertand why JJP hasn't found a different vender after so many years of problems with Mirco.

Where would I find the playfield date commonly on a JJP? I have a 4/21 build as well

Dude you acted like a bad playfield was no big deal and people need to just relax. Then the idea that I was going to use, the force, karma or maybe my super power to influence some bad mojo to get you a bad playfield and you lost your shit and threw a hissy. I think maybe a bad playfield is bothering you more than you are preaching. I promise I will not influence the universe and increase the chance you get a bad one.

I wonder if mirco doesn't full cure the PF's before they ship them, assuming they will cure during travel time to the US - which may be the issue as you can't account for temp and humidity. Of course, this is just a guess

I would agree, we cured our coatings in climate controlled settings to ensure testing results on bond strength and environmental exposure were repeatable. The environmental profile of playfields curing while in shipping has got to be totally different shipment to shipment, time of year, how long it sits in a hot truck, or sweltering in the cargo hold of a plane on the runway, or ??

I thought they normally stamp the playfield date on the edge of the wood. Someone may know more specifically.

Thanks, found it on the top edge pf the playfield

April 21 Build

Jan 21 Playfield

Screenshot_20210520-151304_Video Player (resized).jpg

seems you are missing out then, Both have some great titles to play aside from Being 100 percent perfect

I said that for ME it was not important for the others, I understand that it has the right to disturb them. So also understand that for some person of which me that little embarrassment a little less That is all. And I promise it won't keep me from sleeping if my GNR has this kind of problem. I won't be happy but I just want to enjoy the game. And for your story carma asks the universe for JJP to fix the problem rather than praying that I get a shitty game. Or else use your strength to relax if you need to.

Bublehead, how long does it take the clearcoat to cure and harden so that it doesn't pool? 4 months seems more than sufficient but perhaps not??

Is it possible that the game is putting out enough heat that the clearcoat becomes malleable again and starts to pool?

No, it doesn't get that warm. It does take considerable heat (heat iron/gun) for it to melt to flatten the pooled areas

In four months, if it hasn't crosslinked, it is not going to (we were looking at a four hour bake to cure ours)
But here is what you need to know... if a CC does not fully cross link within a certain time period, the physical characteristics can and do change with an extended cure time. They can become chalky, brittle, soft, semi soft, they can tear, shatter, and flake. We pushed the process many ways but in the end, you listened to the 3M engineers because they (the manufacturer) already knew exactly how to apply and cure it to give it the best performance. Anything we did to accelerate the cure always ended up with a less than desirable result in either physical or chemical robustness.

TL;DR

We found quite a few factors affect crosslinking. On cure times, we were trying to get near zero wait times on assembly after application, so all of our testing was being done within days of application. It all depends on the chemistry, adulterants, temperature, humidity, but what we found was it all will eventually crosslink, but to what degree depends on thinner concentrations, catalyst, and coating thickness and time. This was a high temp coating that was originally used as a binder in aluminized paints used for exhaust manifolds. When we found out it was optically clear, we decided to try it in or application. We ended up having to bake ours to cure it to the point of being rigid (nondeforming). The bake was not acceptable to the plastic substrate (it started deforming due to heat) was why we abandoned the process. Increased cure time at room temp would eventually harden it but it's performance was greatly reduced, it became chalky and more brittle, whereas fully crosslinking it in the oven made it almost glass-like and that property was pretty permanent. We did, however use this coating to apply a transparent red pigmented version onto quartz glass Xenon flashtubes for use in collision avoidance lighting, but the cost was more expensive than the molded red glass we were currently using. It had one thing going for it though, red glass gets darker with heat, where our coating did not. This means on the ground, the strobes are dimmer than in flight due to cooling, but there was no allowance for cooling the glass when you tested it (since collision avoidance strobes need to work on the runway/tarmac) So our brightness did not continue to fall off as the units heated up, an advantage that was never fully appreciated or sold by marketing, and so Boeing decided not to go that route either.

Would you say this is a problem of how often new themes are released?

I don’t know Stern’s business model but I’m presuming they have to keep creating and launching new themed pins to remain profitable. This necessarily means that there is a finite time between the design and manufacture of a new themed playfield before it has to be installed in a machine and sold to someone. Since Stern seem to be releasing new themes at least 3 or 4 times a year, this would tend to suggest that - at most - a newly clearcoated playfield has 3 months to cure, and that assumes that Stern are ahead of themselves constantly - i.e. as soon as one theme is distributed they already have the next one manufactured and curing in a room somewhere. That doesn’t seem likely to me.

If this is ultimately a cure time problem, and Stern “have” to crank out 4 themes a year, what is the solution?

(This doesn’t excuse JJP who don’t release stuff with anything like this frequency)

Here's a question for everyone, have we seen any chipping or pooling on old titles recently manufactured, like when they do another run of BM66, or name the game that is currently being produced NOT on the 4 anchor title release schedule? Are all the playfields done "just in time" or do they order by lots that sit in inventory until the line is idle?

TL;DR

Stern seems to think removing artwork under posts is the answer, as many here do, but I am not convinced that with the right cure schedule and regular screen printed artwork, you could go back to having artwork everywhere. I believe they should use DTS printing ONLY for the Pro version, that they actually screen print premiums and LE/CEs. I know this is not a popular opinion for Pro buyers, but since the Pro is supposed to be consumed by operators to help lower operator costs, they are also the ones who care the least about blemishes and playfield irregularities. Here's what I would do, calculate the cost of sourcing screen printed playfields and make it a customer add on... you can buy a Pre/LE without it, or pay extra and get a screened and CC'd one for extra $$$. Now they can fall back to you bought it with a DTS printed playfield, and we do not warranty that for more than 90 days and that only covers any defects or problems that make the game unplayable. Now, I would build my machines on the line as a small run of Pro first, followed by large run of Premiums and LE's, then all my CE's, then the big batch of Pros and finally the remaining Premiums/LEs. But here's the catch, the first small batch of Pros would have screened playfields at no extra cost. Then let the market do its best to figure out who pays what for what and the distributors can sort it out. People would scramble to get Pros first, then the regulars would buy what they want, adding for a real screened playfield if thats your fancy, the collectors would get their machines after you worked out the bugs producing Premiums, and then finish up your orders from there out... this helps lower the cost of Premiums and LE's by giving a DTS option, and CE's would have screened pf's as standard but a reduced price DTS option could still be offered. Thats a lot of customer satisfaction for the simple task of sourcing both screened and DTS pf's, but I don't run a pinball company, so this is just the mad ravings of a lunatic...

Sorry makes no sense. Last thing the market wants is a lottery choice of get crap or pay more for possibly less crap. They did it right before they simply need to figure out what went wrong and Fix it!