The problem is that BOTH could have shit playfields.

I don't think anyone has reported problems unplayed OOTB, have they? Only after getting plays/ball hits/vibration.

And the worst is that people think that a company can stop its production line by snapping its fingers, not delivering a machine for 1 year and coming back as if nothing had happened, apologizing for not having been perfect !! Seriously, if they can they'll recrify all these problems. Be patient, enjoy life and your pinball machine and especially if you are better than them get started in pinball production and let us see what you are capable of.

I'm kidding a bit on buying two, but more seriously what's wrong with buying a spare playfield as peace of mind, then play the crap out of it?
So long as you (or a future buyer) can always return to pristine state, doesn't that let you guys relax and enjoy? It would me.

Spare will have the same art adhesion issues at the original after installation.

People shouldn't have to waste money buying 2x shit product just to have "peace of mind"

I do not think so. Most people appreciated the new playfield. Only a very small, hard to please noisy minority kept complaining. F*@k them I say.

Because the spare playfield would be the same shit quality as the other?

They should send a populated playfield and pay for you to ship your populated playfield back. That would be the right thing to do

Two things: one, replacing a playfield isn't exactly like changing batteries in your remote control. And two? You said it yourself, they're 1000 dollar parts. Why should people have to buy a 1000 dollar spare part for something that shouldn't go bad in a home environment
.. like.... ever.

He's kidding a bit!

You guys are a tough crowd.

The weird thing about all these shit playfields is where are the shit playfield discounts? I don't think I've ever seen a game with a "bad playfield" price, or I'd be buying left and right.

Are the victims simply not selling - going to their graves with their bad playfields rather than eating some money to get out? What gives?

Maybe, but the value of a spare unpopulated PF to me is $0 because I can't do a swap myself

I sold a Wonka SE during the peak of clearcoatgate hysteria. It did have damage (which I ironed/mylared/topped w/ Titan washers.) I got $6500 for it which wasn't terrible seeing as we put 5000 plays on it, but the same game would probably sell for 8k in today's market.

""Are the victims simply not selling? What gives?""
Most are keeping them and others just scalping them before they play . Not many Used Played ones Selling. And if so not sure the pooling was an issue for new buyer or may have not been told as much / My guess

Maybe you get that impression from some folks. Me personally, I just didnt want my brand new machine to start chipping all over the place. Whenever someone sells a newer pinball machine literally the first question asked is "how is the playfield?".

No one is questioning their innovation, but rather their non existent quality control. Additionally, my machine looked like a blind 5 year old applied the mylar. JJP is no longer offering support for defective playfields, it isnt like anyone is smearing them, they literally admit they have no interest in dealing with playfield issues, and for me, that's enough to not buy from them. I dont care if anyone else does or not.

Here's an idea: how about we get a solid product right out of the gate without ANY playfield issues and we can have the peace of mind and confidence to NOT have to "play the lottery" everytime we order one.

My girlfriend and I visited someone last week who had a really nice collection of modern machines. She played a few games of Stranger Things while the guys and I were talking. After we left she said she loved the game and would like to add one to our collection but asked WTF was up with the playfield. I asked he what she meant and she said it was beat to shit and looked cratered like the moon! In my opinion, casual players noticing playfield issues on HUO machines that are under a year old= A serious manufacturing problem. I told her it does have the ramp which causes lots of air balls. Her response was for what they are charging That’s BS !

Well obviously they are worthless pieces of junk that are literally falling apart so they are simply being thrown away.

Mine had issues OOTB. Zero plays.

Argh I am sorry.

I understand what you are saying and I am the first to want to have a nice machine. What I look for above all is the pleasure of playing. I don t buy a machine to earn money but to experience the game, enjoy a night out with friends and talk about this machine again years later and say "it was cool that flipp" is what matters to me. To take the lead and remember in 3 years that there was a problem on the playground that does not interest me. No more than making money selling or losing my pinball machine. A new car loses 30% of its value after 6 months. A pinball machine I don't think so.

JJP saying they are not supporting defective playfields.
Is this for real?
Customers pays a non refundable deposit, then they issue above statement.
Even this joke got passed me.

Unless you are a shareholder in JJP or Stern, why on earth defend defective products?

It's giving them tacit permission not to improve quality.

Sure, games are meant to be played and enjoyed but brittle playfields are a real party pooper.

This is 100% accurate.
They have offered to buy back your game or send you washers.
There are folks that accepted the buyback offer but ultimately resold their game while waiting for JJP to contact them on the buy back.

I am not defending anything I am just an enthusiast and the fun takes over from the problem of playfield. To choose I prefer that and that they continue to give us new game rather than kill the business. We are lucky to be able to play with such a beautiful machine but many do not even realize it. Maybe that is the problem.

I like that idea too but every manufacturer has defects and issues. How they handle their issues is the matter really under discussion in my view.

My man, yes, this.

Whether a person buys a $20k GNR CE or $25k POTC CE or $15k Mando LE or $15k TBl in the second hand market, they expect the game to be pristine. They don’t want to worry about handling a defective game nor losing money when the playfield starts to snap, crackle and pop. Ask the person buying a nib Stern LE for $9.5k or pro for $6k, and they don’t want an inferior product either. If the machine is affected by defects, the game’s value is too.

It is a total crap shoot how your playfield will turn out. With JJP you can get a refund for purchase price. That seems fair to me. You are compensated for the value you initially spent. Stern giving a blank playfield is not an equal solution. Stern giving a populated playfield to swap in is a fair choice (actually it is the preferred solution), but I understand they might not be doing that any more. As long as the manufacturers are addressing and fairly resolving bad playfields, the gamble of buying one is probably still worth taking.

Dude, for the life of me I can’t figure out why you’re willing to put up with this crap. This is clearly a solvable issue. Spooky did it. Why can’t the billionaire JJP investors do it? They can, but apologists like you make it unnecessary for them.

Since you asked, it's because I love what they do with the games. I don't like the playfield issues either but the gameplay is the big thing to me.

The other thing to consider is we are VERY heavy players. We're at over 8000 on Wonka and over 3200 on Guns.

I figure I have three things I can do.

1. Stop buying/playing the games and sell them off. Not an option as we (both my wife and I) enjoy them too much.
2. Complain
3. Work around wear as best we can and don't let it detract from our enjoyment.

Believe me I would like this issue to go away forever. We all would. I was kind of disappointed to hear George Gomez pooping on the Haggis acrylic solution, as I am pretty interested in it. I also think hardtops are cool, I played a restored High Speed with one and was very impressed.

Also, one more thing...

Assume positive intent. Remember these playfields went out with the "Quality test" post hole under the apron, so they clearly are trying along with Mirco to improve playfield quality.

I am certain JJP is not over there twisting their mustaches trying to find ways to intentionally screw pinball buyers.

Happy customers buy more products.

Can't you play the snot out of your games *AND* care about the playfield art staying attached? These things aren't exactly mutually exclusive.

Look, I agree the games are great. And I feel bad for the designers who just want to make the best games they can without dealing with playfield issues. But what about at least calling out the bean counters who apparently have decided that it is financially advantageous to keep putting out the crap playfields and not address egregious issues? Why give them a pass? I understand pinball fans don’t have much choice. If we want to buy new games it’s not like we have dozens of companies to choose from. But why make it so easy for them to screw the customer to save a buck? Even if you decide the playfield lottery is worth it to you to have a fun new game, at least call a spade a spade and admit that these business practices are unacceptable—and call out the bean counters.

JJP is now the worst!

This customer was just told "There's not much we can do for your game, we will send a washer kit"...he wasn't happy lol.

The Mirco JJP "Quality Test" post sounds like a joke if its just a post applied to clear coated wood with no artwork. Of course chipping / pooling won't occur there, Stern already proved this by correcting the issue by removing artwork around all posts. Pooling / chipping only seems to be occurring at posts that rest on clear coated artwork.

Can anyone confirm if the Mirco quality test post is a post applied to clear coated wood with no artwork?

This is easy:
I’ll take the buy back offer then when I receive the cash, I’ll buy another GnR.... hopefully one with a good PF - awesome

Another great JJP business decision.
I hear a toilet flush .... lol

I thought I had heard the buy back is not really happening. Did people not post that it was offered but then when it comes down to it all they get is silence for months.

JJP is setting themselves up for a class action lawsuit over these PF issues. It's the american way.

If there ever was a lawsuit over playfield quality, I wonder if JJP/Stern would argue that these $12,500 games are meant to be played on location and should not be considered collector quality games. They clearly market these games to collectors but whenever defects pop up we always hear the "in the 90s no one cared about this stuff because operators weren't obsessed with minor flaws. These games are meant to be played!" arguments. It would be interesting to hear an official on the record argument that flies in the face of all their promotional rhetoric.

Or at least a strongly worded moveon.org petition!

167 pages adding up to over 8000 comments and I am asked why I haven’t bought a stern or JJP yet. Hmm....

Legitimate question NOT taking a side but curious what the group thinks. It seems to me there would be no way for JJP or Stern to ever acknowledge or admit there was a playfield issue Even if they found a real solution due to the avalanche of years of claims big, small, and even assumed. Again NOT saying this isn't a real issue because it certainly Is! Just curious how the group thinks they would go about making it right in any case moving forward let alone the past? Seems like a loose loose proposition any direction. How many games or units would you need to see to feel this is closed granted not forgotten?

I sold it, got back what i paid, but i bought at 9500 and jjp raised to 10,500, so i lost nothing, what i did learn is after years of supporting jack, and his broken products,he could have made this right for me but didn’t.

This is true, in fact when i emailed barry that i sold it after waiting 6 weeks for jen to contact me,the response was that is great news!

Fantastic news! We dont have to deal with you!

I never contacted them when I traded mine because I wanted to see if they would ever even reach out as promised, they didnt. Piss poor service and followup.

P.S. - you should charge your phone at night.

I'm not going to lie, but I chuckled when i first saw that. It was sortof a black humour chuckle, as I'm sure you must have been incredulous at the time. "Great news, you're going to stop bothering us!"

Someone pointed out earlier that the OP of this thread has been asking about buying the new Mando pin. If true, that pretty much speaks volumes really. It's been said multiple times but Stern, JJP, etc have no motivation to bend over backwards to fix anything so long as demand meets or exceeds supply, especially when the people that complain are just going ahead and buying their next pin sight unseen again anyway, presumably because "this time it'll be different".

People might make the argument that if you weren't buying these new pins, what would you do? Miss out on some great themes? Well, yes, that's exactly what you would do if you had any conviction. If people complain about pooling, chipping, etc and then go on to buy another NIB pin from these same companies, with no assurances that anything has been fixed or improved - they immediately disqualify themselves in my mind as having a legitimate complaint. They are part of the problem.

The ONLY leverage you have over Stern, JJP, indeed many corporate entities, is the power of your wallet. If you can't even manage not to buy the next pin they bring out, because you just can't stop yourself, then you have only yourself to blame, because those companies are meeting your expectations (your actual ones, not the ones you profess to have when you complain about issues).

I bought Jurassic and got a bad playfield, after 9 months stern sent me an unpopulated playfield that looks like they started putting it in a game and removed it. I haven't bought anything stern since, its been over 2 years no nib stern. I specifically bought JJP because their games are supposed to be the best quality. Their quality is worse, and the customer support is non existent. I feel bad for the non collector nib buyer.

I'm curious, have you had any issues with your games? Are there pieces of your play field falling off?

This is a redicoulus statement. there have been reported problems since dialed in and still hasn´t been resolved.

the solution is simple and should have been dealth with five years ago. Kick mirco to the curb.