(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

3 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 3,151 posts
  • 400 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 days ago by Pachill
  • Topic is favorited by 112 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 341 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

PB060048 (resized).JPG
IMG_20191113_005534.jpg
IMG_20191113_005516.jpg
IMG_20191113_005501.jpg
A9B9EFA4-D492-4687-BC00-4F9941A21CC6 (resized).png
IMG_0362 (resized).jpeg
20191104_094400 (resized).jpg
IM1 (resized).jpg
download (1) (resized).jpg
IMAG4130 (resized).jpg
Screenshot_20191105-090819 (resized).jpg
7251FC68-3BA0-498E-A517-44138D553047 (resized).png
sling post (resized).JPG
24E28045-2F31-4BA8-B740-F4ABADC2E253 (resized).jpeg
C46C1715-247E-4118-8680-090B31335FC8 (resized).jpeg
9D4E9D32-614F-454E-AFFA-C3E888BC5E92 (resized).jpeg

There are 3151 posts in this topic. You are on page 16 of 64.
#751 80 days ago

For a long time I thought "wow, this is a horrible time for deeproot to enter the market", wow their fortunes have changed!

#752 80 days ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

For a long time I thought "wow, this is a horrible time for deeproot to enter the market", wow their fortunes have changed!

Why do you think this? Because a company that has never manufactured a pinball machine before is going to have no quality issues?

#753 80 days ago
Quoted from MK6PIN:

The only plan is populated replacement play fields, period.
Question will be if they have business insurance to cover this massive cost.
People buy games from manufacturers, not parts vendors, so they are on the hook.

I have some experience with business insurance and it typically includes a very large deductible and is mainly intended to protect against secondary damages, e.g. a part supplied to Boeing is defective and causes the plane to crash. The more likely scenario is that the playfield vendor is liable to JJP/Stern for the direct (cost of playfield) and secondary (cost to swap playfield and loss of sales) damages. This assumes that JJP/Stern were able to negotiate good warranty terns with the supplier. If the vendor has insurance AND is liable for secondary damages, the insurance company may be motivated to quickly settle to minimize secondary damages. I doubt insurance would cover “minor” cosmetic issues like rippling that haven’t caused de-lamination - this is likely why JJP/Stern published letters excluding clearcoat “variations” but stopped short of claiming de-lamination is normal.

#754 80 days ago
Quoted from luckymoey:

I have some experience with business insurance and it typically includes a very large deductible and is mainly intended to protect against secondary damages, e.g. a part supplied to Boeing is defective and causes the plane to crash. The more likely scenario is that the playfield vendor is liable to JJP/Stern for the direct (cost of playfield) and secondary (cost to swap playfield and loss of sales) damages. This assumes that JJP/Stern were able to negotiate good warranty terns with the supplier. If the vendor has insurance AND is liable for secondary damages, the insurance company may be motivated to quickly settle to minimize secondary damages. I doubt insurance would cover “minor” cosmetic issues like rippling that haven’t caused de-lamination - this is likely why JJP/Stern published letters excluding clearcoat “variations” but stopped short of claiming de-lamination is normal.

The big question is what is considered "minor". Where and tear, dings, dents, mechanical, hardware, software bugs, etc. Are minor and expected.

Knowing the art and clear are going to separate from the wood due to a defect with a greatly accelerated pace is a defect. I think when other areas start showing is when shit is really gonna hit the fan.

#755 80 days ago

Knowing virtually every game from JJP POTC moving forward has this potential could be devastating. Hoping Stern only had a couple runs w defective play fields, and is already getting solid replacements in place.

#756 80 days ago
Quoted from MK6PIN:

I think when other areas start showing is when shit is really gonna hit the fan.

Did you see post 727, looks gross!

#757 80 days ago
Quoted from libtech:

Did you see post 727, looks gross!

Yep...No way this is limited to post areas...Did they do this process just to these areas? Nope... entire playfield.... the cost of replacement, populated pfs will pale in comparison to sales dropping off a cliff, imho..

#758 80 days ago
Quoted from libtech:

Did you see post 727, looks gross!

Did they not see this during assembly??

#759 80 days ago

I recently played MBr on location, posts looked fine, just dimpling like all other machines.

MBr3 (resized).jpgMBr2 (resized).jpgMBr1 (resized).jpg
#760 80 days ago
Quoted from Ranhorton:

Can any CGC owners confirm their playfields are free from significant issues like stern is dealing with?

MBr LE #449 no issues.

#761 80 days ago

My AFMr is flawless in every way shape and form. (Both of my post-2018 Stern tables have issues with less than 500 plays.)

#762 80 days ago

Maybe stern could do a free unpopulated pf for affected games and a 750 credit towards future purchase to help cover swap labor.
To do populated swaps on 100,s of games could sink any company.

#763 80 days ago
Quoted from luckymoey:

I have some experience with business insurance and it typically includes a very large deductible and is mainly intended to protect against secondary damages, e.g. a part supplied to Boeing is defective and causes the plane to crash. The more likely scenario is that the playfield vendor is liable to JJP/Stern for the direct (cost of playfield) and secondary (cost to swap playfield and loss of sales) damages. This assumes that JJP/Stern were able to negotiate good warranty terns with the supplier. If the vendor has insurance AND is liable for secondary damages, the insurance company may be motivated to quickly settle to minimize secondary damages. I doubt insurance would cover “minor” cosmetic issues like rippling that haven’t caused de-lamination - this is likely why JJP/Stern published letters excluding clearcoat “variations” but stopped short of claiming de-lamination is normal.

Knowing you and knowing your background, I am pretty sure you are correct about the business insurance observation chain of liability. I'm no lawyer, but this sounds like the path through what is established by the manufacturers and insurance companies. May we not choose our own path of settlement and not rely upon the manufacturers to dole out to us what they think we deserve, on their own terms?

I doubt that these pinball companies have a proper legal arrangement with whomever manufactured the defective playfields (some mention Mirco, but this has not been proven beyond a doubt - we do not really know the origin or true cause 100% of the defective playfields or even if it is an ink or a clearcoat issue. I will not implicate Mirco at this point, we need more proof. But I DO expect that it is the manufacturing level (Stern, JJP, etc.) that owns the liability for selling faulty products).

The problem may be far-reaching enough that a class-action lawsuit might be a possibility. If these problems are due to a systematic, wide-reaching failure by companies to properly test and apply clearcoat or have ink adhere to the PF, that is a fundamental manufacturing problem. If they do not settle with we, the customers, aren't we are free to launch collective legal action?

I imagine a court of law would dictate to the *manufacturers* what *we* deserve and the court wouldn't care what terms the companies have dictated to the customer.

For each case among us, if each customer could establish that there is *any* problem with the clearcoat (or ink) that is showing immediate or premature blistering etc...they would be entitled to xx settlement amount or the company could agree to send a fully-populated PF etc to solve the problem. I contend that *any* blistering is unacceptable because this indicates a fundamental problem with the playfield manufacture that will - over time - result in playfield deterioration that is well beyond historically-acceptable norms of the past 25 years of playfield manufacture (a norm that the customer has reasonable cause to expect in their brand new purchase).

In general consumer terms, a customer has reasonable cause to expect that their $6000 or $9500 or $12500 machine does not contain fundamental manufacturing flaws...unless they have explicitly signed a legal document absolving the manufacturer of that basic liability. A playfield is widely considered to be the main focal point of a pinball machine in terms of aesthetic enjoyment or resale value, so this is a significant issue.

It is a potentially huge liability on part of the manufacturers. I think it is so potentially large in financial terms (and I believe profits in the pinball industry are extremely low) that they may feel the best course of action is to deny liability and do nothing unless their hands are forced.

One thing for sure: I think current sales for NIB (Wonka, Jurassic Park 2) will tank for HUO until they explicitly indicate ("this game with this serial number is made with clearcoat that we - the manufacturer - guarantee will not blister" to the distributor - who will pass along this information to we the customers in their solicit for sale).

I would also guess the manufacturers are working like fiends on fixing the problem and we can *probably* assume that machines from October and onward won't have this problem(?).

#764 80 days ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

For every person posting on here I'd guess there are 5 lurking with a problem and not posting. For every person lurking there are probably 10+ who have no idea they already have a problem.

Definitely. I personally know of an Iron Maiden Pro, a JJP POTC LE and Wonka LE with this issue that were not mentioned in this thread. The Maiden has severe ripples around nearly every post in the main part of the playfield and the owner was told by Stern that this was 'acceptable' and they would do nothing for him. The JJP POTC LE already has rings of bare wood around the sling posts where the clear has cracked away. The Wonka is just rippling around the slings so far.

#765 80 days ago
Quoted from tpir:

My AFMr is flawless in every way shape and form. (Both of my post-2018 Stern tables have issues with less than 500 plays.)

So is mine, and my Munsters LE is literally problem free, w over 600 plays to date.

Seems JP is the biggie for Stern, POTC and Wonka for JJP.

There are always isolated incidents, beyond.

For JJP to stop POTC so soon after such a long delay, and next game have the same pf issues is devastating.

Definitely in a pinball funk lately, regarding any new purchase

#766 80 days ago

I think the court of Public Opinion has more relevance right here, right now. I should hope it never comes to some kind of legal action.

#767 80 days ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

I think the court of Public Opinion has more relevance right here, right now. I should hope it never comes to some kind of legal action.

Me too: 1000%

As many here I'm sure, I've been through the courts before and to say it is a pain in the ass is a gross understatement.

-1
#768 80 days ago

If it turns into legal action only the lawyers win

#769 80 days ago

Better call Saul !

#770 80 days ago
Quoted from gumnut01:

That lone post is such a bad design. Could they have tied it to a plastic that can span across the lane on the right to another post? If it had rigidity from above it would not be so susceptible to chipping.
Edit: checked the playfield, they could create a clear plastic stretching to the other side of the flipper and to under the chopper. This would fix it. Even a third party could create a clear plastic shield to strengthen this post. Sorry if someone has already suggested this.

The problem has nothing to do with the top of the post... plastic isn’t going to support and combat the high intensity ball impacts. The problem is that it’s a skinny screw in a big hole for the t nut... because there is no room underneath for a typical post+nut.... where the post is normally friction fit to the hole as well as having a nylon nut.

34
#771 80 days ago

Went to a barcade yesterday and here's what i saw.

JP-pooling and chipping
BK3-pooling
IMDN-pooling and a piece of clearcoat flaking off in the middle of the playfield
Deadpool- didnt look but im sure it probably had issues as well.

At my house:

Munsters-pooling
IMDN-pooling and chipping after 600 plays

For anyone who thinks this isn't a big problem, you better think again because its HUGE I guarantee it!

#772 80 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Went to a barcade yesterday and here's what i saw.
JP-pooling and chipping
BK3-pooling
IMDN-pooling and a piece of clearcoat flaking off in the middle of the playfield
Deadpool- didnt look but im sure it probably had issues as well.
At my house:
Munsters-pooling
IMDN-pooling and chipping after 600 plays

Went to my local barcade and saw a similar thing: IMDN pooling at most posts(not chipping yet), pooling in one spot on Deadpool, didn't see any issues on Star Wars.

My IMDN chipped around 600 plays and has pooling at about 13 different places. The IMDN at the barcade is over a year old. Mine was manufactured in June. So two machines at least a year apart in manufacturing are having similar problems with the clear. Ironically my newer machine is worse.

#773 80 days ago
Quoted from Vinnie:

Went to my local barcade and saw a similar thing: IMDN pooling at most posts(not chipping yet), pooling in one spot on Deadpool, didn't see any issues on Star Wars.
My IMDN chipped around 600 plays and has pooling at about 13 different places. The IMDN at the barcade is over a year old. Mine was manufactured in June. So two machines at least a year apart in manufacturing are having similar problems with the clear. Ironically my newer machine is worse.

The clearcoat that was flaking off in the middle of the playfield really concerned me more than anything. I have never heard of that on anyones game yet. These playfields are junk compared to older games by Stern.

10
#774 80 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Went to a barcade yesterday and here's what i saw.
JP-pooling and chipping
BK3-pooling
IMDN-pooling and a piece of clearcoat flaking off in the middle of the playfield
Deadpool- didnt look but im sure it probably had issues as well.
At my house:
Munsters-pooling
IMDN-pooling and chipping after 600 plays
For anyone who thinks this isn't a big problem, you better think again because its HUGE I guarantee it!

Wow. No doubts this is widespread now. Waaaay past just working up the chain of command. This problem is a crisis. Pf in a pinball machine IS the Alpha-Omega of it. Rest is just there to support the pf. Decals ungluing? ( Stern ST), no big deal we just reglued. Cabs separating? More serious, ( again, Stern), but imporved cab leg supports and wood glue.
Node boards? 1st gen JJP light boards? Serious scale on top tier now, but fixable, replace affected boards (hopefully at no cost to owners!).

But THIS?!? Aww c’mon. Much needed corporate rethink. NOW! I’m sure resellers taking a hit will appreciate Jack’s letter.

I’ve got money saved for my next LE. Time to put it into my cars instead. NIB is too stressful

#775 80 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Went to a barcade yesterday and here's what i saw.
JP-pooling and chipping
BK3-pooling
IMDN-pooling and a piece of clearcoat flaking off in the middle of the playfield
Deadpool- didnt look but im sure it probably had issues as well.
At my house:
Munsters-pooling
IMDN-pooling and chipping after 600 plays
For anyone who thinks this isn't a big problem, you better think again because its HUGE I guarantee it!

wow. This is even bigger than I thought. If this becomes the norm around the industry, I'm out of new pinball. Period.

#776 80 days ago
Quoted from Vinnie:

Went to my local barcade and saw a similar thing: IMDN pooling at most posts(not chipping yet), pooling in one spot on Deadpool, didn't see any issues on Star Wars.
My IMDN chipped around 600 plays and has pooling at about 13 different places. The IMDN at the barcade is over a year old. Mine was manufactured in June. So two machines at least a year apart in manufacturing are having similar problems with the clear. Ironically my newer machine is worse.

Jeez, what do you guys expect for $6,000-$12,500?
These “issues” are all normal and have routinely been cherished by NIB buyers for years. They simply add a charming patina to your new game.

#777 80 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Went to a barcade yesterday and here's what i saw.
JP-pooling and chipping
BK3-pooling
IMDN-pooling and a piece of clearcoat flaking off in the middle of the playfield
Deadpool- didnt look but im sure it probably had issues as well.
At my house:
Munsters-pooling
IMDN-pooling and chipping after 600 plays
For anyone who thinks this isn't a big problem, you better think again because its HUGE I guarantee it!

What did Stern or your distributor say?

12
#778 80 days ago
Quoted from delt31:

wow. This is even bigger than I thought. If this becomes the norm around the industry, I'm out of new pinball. Period.

I feel the same way delt. I want a Jurassic Park bad and Elvira 3 is a dream theme for me but im just not buying right now, i cant. I have other friends that are feeling the same way. They want a JP2 and they just wont buy one because of the playfield issues.

#779 80 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

What did Stern or your distributor say?
Nag them.

Haven't heard back yet.

#780 80 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Haven't heard back yet.

Cool. Let us know what they are willing to do.

#781 80 days ago

No chipping here, but my BKSOR LE has some of the pooling of clear around the posts. Shows up as a ripple around the posts. Not bad compared to the Wonka, JJPPOTC and JP2 games as I've seen posted and it is only on a handful of post and not on others. The left slings have no issues but the right sling has the worst pooling. Go figure. See picture below. I've contacted my distributor and sent a bunch of detailed pictures. Basically the clear has not fully cured. It's soft. I went ahead and put clear washers underneath the two worst of the posts at the right sling. The clear is definitely soft there. Just putting a clear washer under helped to flatten the clear. This stuff should be hard as hell at this point, so there is something wrong with the curing for sure.
20190826_181344 (resized).jpg20190826_182005 (resized).jpg20190826_182311 (resized).jpg

16
#782 80 days ago

Many of those impacted want a replacement populated playfield. But I wouldn’t want one where the underlying problem with the clear hasn’t been fixed.

I’d planned for two NIB games in the next year - Elvira 3 and Toy Story. Both purchases are on hold until the respective manufacturers show me that I don’t need to play playfield and support roulette with the most important component of a pinball machine.

#783 80 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

I feel the same way delt. I want a Jurassic Park bad and Elvira 3 is a dream theme for me but im just not buying right now, i cant. I have other friends that are feeling the same way. They want a JP2 and they just wont buy one because of the playfield issues.

My JP2 money is currently allocated towards whatever CGC's next table is, or possibly a MBr...

The arcades have been packed all weekend so I was not able to get good pictures, but the general summary is there were some pretty gross bubbling issues on anything post-GB/WOZ-ish time frame. Not counting CGC games... all of those were in amazing shape considering the traffic these venues get.

Not a hot take and not trying to play internet detective

#784 80 days ago
Quoted from underlord:

Wow. No doubts this is widespread now. Waaaay past just working up the chain of command. This problem is a crisis. Pf in a pinball machine IS the Alpha-Omega of it. Rest is just there to support the pf. Decals ungluing? ( Stern ST), no big deal we just reglued. Cabs separating? More serious, ( again, Stern), but imporved cab leg supports and wood glue.
Node boards? 1st gen JJP light boards? Serious scale on top tier now, but fixable, replace affected boards (hopefully at no cost to owners!).
But THIS?!? Aww c’mon. Much needed corporate rethink. NOW! I’m sure resellers taking a hit will appreciate Jack’s letter.
I’ve got money saved for my next LE. Time to put it into my cars instead. NIB is too stressful

I've got an ACNC coming and after that I'll look at MBSE instead of Elvira 3. NIB is okay you just have to pick your spots.

#785 80 days ago
Quoted from John_I:

Basically the clear has not fully cured. It's soft

it is cured - it was sprayed many months ago. The formula they used is not resulting in a stiff finish resistant to compression like we are used to.

Cure is not the same thing as 'hard'. Cure means the chemical reaction has finished and the product is now stable.

#786 80 days ago
Quoted from Jackalwere:

NIB is okay you just have to pick your spots.

Yeah, anything other than the top two pinball manufacturers and you’re good.

#787 80 days ago
Quoted from tpir:

My JP2 money is currently allocated towards whatever CGC's next table is, or possibly a MBr...

I was thinking the exact same thing earlier. I kinda want a MBR anyways so that could be the direction that i go in.

#788 80 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

it is cured - it was sprayed many months ago. The formula they used is not resulting in a stiff finish resistant to compression like we are used to.
Cure is not the same thing as 'hard'. Cure means the chemical reaction has finished and the product is now stable.

Yeah, the level of hardness in those defective playfields will not change at this point.

#789 80 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

I was thinking the exact same thing earlier. I kinda want a MBR anyways so that could be the direction that i go in.

MBR is a great game...CGC did a nice jog...I wish they would remake the MM with the larger screen to match my other remakes

#790 80 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

I was thinking the exact same thing earlier. I kinda want a MBR anyways so that could be the direction that i go in.

My exact thoughts

#791 80 days ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

MBR is a great game...CGC did a nice jog...I wish they would remake the MM with the larger screen to match my other remakes

I struggle between MBR and MMR. Which would be your choice of you could only have one?

#792 80 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

I struggle between MBR and MMR. Which would be your choice of you could only have one?

Mmr for sure, because of deeper rules

#793 80 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

it is cured - it was sprayed many months ago. The formula they used is not resulting in a stiff finish resistant to compression like we are used to.
Cure is not the same thing as 'hard'. Cure means the chemical reaction has finished and the product is now stable.

Not sure why you are splitting hairs here, but this is not fully cured. If it was fully cured it would have memory and spring back after you push it flat with the washer. Sure it is softer than we are used to but it is also not fully cured - at least in the spots where it is pooled and thicker. The areas on the SAME PLAYFIELD that are have thinner clear (not pooled) are hard enough that the clear is not dented when you remove the posts. The thicker areas are soft and dented. Unless the formula of the clear somehow changed for two posts that are 4 inches apart, the problem definitely has something to do with curing of thicker material. Whether the chemical reaction is done or not, it is not cured...

#794 80 days ago

I bet if you rang "The Wolf" , something would be done in less than 30 minutes.

-8
#795 80 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

I struggle between MBR and MMR. Which would be your choice of you could only have one?

Neither. Both get stale fast, especially mmr

#796 80 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

I struggle between MBR and MMR. Which would be your choice of you could only have one?

Thats a tough choice....my family would pick MBR LE..people bag the code, but I think its BS as its a really fun pin.....if I had to choose I might give MMR a slight edge....u really can't go wrong with either choice...I'd pick up a nice used one locally...whatever comes up first wins

#797 80 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

I struggle between MBR and MMR. Which would be your choice of you could only have one?

MBR assuming you are OK with the overlap in theme with Munsters The double-sized color DMD is what makes me lean in the direction of MBR, but both are great.

#798 80 days ago
Quoted from John_I:

If it was fully cured it would have memory and spring back after you push it flat with the washer.

Elasticity is a separate property from hardness. You squeeze putty fine.. it doesn't mean it springs back because its soft.

Quoted from John_I:

Sure it is softer than we are used to but it is also not fully cured - at least in the spots where it is pooled and thicker. The areas on the SAME PLAYFIELD that are have thinner clear (not pooled) are hard enough that the clear is not dented when you remove the posts. The thicker areas are soft and dented

The clear wasn't thicker there - what you see now is material that has been displaced and wrinkling. That's why it's popping like a blister.. the material is separating from the substrate below.

Quoted from John_I:

Unless the formula of the clear somehow changed for two posts that are 4 inches apart, the problem definitely has something to do with curing of thicker material. Whether the chemical reaction is done or not, it is not cured...

No

25
#799 80 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

it is cured - it was sprayed many months ago. The formula they used is not resulting in a stiff finish resistant to compression like we are used to.
Cure is not the same thing as 'hard'. Cure means the chemical reaction has finished and the product is now stable.

I worked in a body shop when I was younger. I mixed/sprayed my share of paints and clearcoats. At the time, adding the right amount of hardener was critical. When I first saw this soft clearcoat phenomenon on a Stern playfield (IMDN, spring, 2018), my first thought was: Gee, lots of material was laid down - perhaps *too* much - but this is so soft that it's pooling at pressure points and whoever is shooting these PF's at Stern needs to add the right amount of hardener!

What irritates me about Stern's and JJP's responses so far is how dismissive they have been. They say a small group of fastidious ("obsessive"?) Pinsiders has been vocal about the issue but none of their distributors is reporting any complaints from any customers. Really? They also imply that the bad playfields are outliers and represent a tiny fraction of the production so far. Again, really? I would wager *all* of the JP2 PRO playfields were bathed in that inferior clearcoat. Heck, it would surprise me if the great majority of *all* playfields made by Stern or for Stern, beginning with IMDN, aren't likewise defective. The real "outliers" in this case are the few playfields that were sprayed sparingly, thus avoiding pooling - although not making them any harder, certainly.

It irks me that Stern dismisses buyers who complain about soft clearcoat as unreasonably demanding. They need to get in front of this - like, *now*! No more arrogant dodging. Own up and spell out your response plan, Stern and JJP!

#800 80 days ago
Quoted from Jackalwere:

I've got an ACNC coming and after that I'll look at MBSE instead of Elvira 3. NIB is okay you just have to pick your spots.

you-have-chosen-wisely (resized).jpg
Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
Trade
From: $ 69.95
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Super Skill Shot Shop
There are 3151 posts in this topic. You are on page 16 of 64.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside